88.00 Fm - Thailand Declared War On Germany?

[mark45y]

Just of the top of my head without fact checking a little history may be in order. Feel free to correct me.

OK!

Phibun also hated the Chinese who he thought were the "Jews of Asia" (from a book by that title). I won't go into the reasons but suffice it to say the Bangkok elite did not like the Chinese at all.

Not only Phibun, and not quite correct. The "book" you are probably referring to was an essay entitled The Jews of the Orient which was written in 1914 by King Rama VI (King Vajiravudh). Luang Wichitwathakan, a minister in Phibun'sgovernment, comared the Chinese in Siam to the Jews in Germany in a speech he made in 1938.

Thai assets in the US were not frozen by Roosevelt until 1941, when the US entered the war at the same time as the US froze Japanese assets in the US; Thailand declared war on the allies on 25 January 1942.

The Franco-Thai war was hardly connected with WWII - it was a strictly local affair and (feel free to correct me!) I have never heard of an actual declaration of war on France by the Thais.

No, Japanese assets were frozen 6 months before the US entry into the war.

It's too late to go through all of my notes so I pulled the below quotes from the INTERNET. Of course the Franco Thai war was part of WW II. WW II started in 1939 and France and Thailand were both participants in WW II. How do you define WW II except by the participants and fighting? Thailand declared war on France. It was not the only part of WWII but it was part of WWII,

In 1940, most of France was occupied by Nazi Germany, and Phibun immediately set out to avenge Siam's humiliations by France in 1893 and 1904, when the French had redrawn the borders of Siam with Laos and Cambodia by forcing a series of treaties. For that purpose, the Thai government needed Japanese assistance against France, which was secured through the Treaty between Thailand and Japan Concerning the Continuance of Friendly Relations and the Mutual Respect of Each Other's Territorial Integrity, concluded in June 1940. Luang Wichit wrote a number of popular dramas that glorified the idea of many ethnic groups belonging to one greater "Thai" empire and condemned the evils of European colonial rule. Irredentist and anti-French demonstrations were incessantly held around Bangkok, and in late 1940 border skirmishes erupted along the Mekong frontier. On January 9, 1941, Thailand attacked French Indochina, giving Tokyo a reason to move on Saigon . In 1941, the skirmishes became a small scale war between Vichy France and Thailand. The Thai forces dominated the war on the ground and in the air, but suffered a crushing naval defeat at the battle of Koh Chang. The Japanese then stepped in to mediate the conflict. The final settlement thus gave the disputed areas in Laos and Cambodia back to Thailand.

This caused a rapid deterioration of relations with the United States. In April 1941 the United States cut off petroleum supplies to Thailand. 26 July 1941, six months before Pearl Harbor and the US entry into WW II Japanese assets were frozen in the US. US cut off petroleum shipments to Japan August 1, 1941.

Convinced by the Allied defeats of early 1942 that Japan was winning the war, Phibun decide to form an actual military alliance with the Japanese.

As a reward, Japan allowed Thailand to invade and annex the Shan States in northern Burma, and to resume sovereignty over the sultanates of northern Malaya which had previously been lost in a treaty with Britain. In January 1942 Phibun declared war on Britain and the United States,

[SweatiePie]

Just of the top of my head without fact checking a little history may be in order. Feel free to correct me.

OK!

Phibun also hated the Chinese who he thought were the "Jews of Asia" (from a book by that title). I won't go into the reasons but suffice it to say the Bangkok elite did not like the Chinese at all.

Not only Phibun, and not quite correct. The "book" you are probably referring to was an essay entitled The Jews of the Orient which was written in 1914 by King Rama VI (King Vajiravudh). Luang Wichitwathakan, a minister in Phibun'sgovernment, comared the Chinese in Siam to the Jews in Germany in a speech he made in 1938.

Thai assets in the US were not frozen by Roosevelt until 1941, when the US entered the war at the same time as the US froze Japanese assets in the US; Thailand declared war on the allies on 25 January 1942.

The Franco-Thai war was hardly connected with WWII - it was a strictly local affair and (feel free to correct me!) I have never heard of an actual declaration of war on France by the Thais.

No, Japanese assets were frozen 6 months before the US entry into the war. ........

It's too late to go through all of my notes so I pulled the below quotes from the INTERNET. Of course the Franco Thai war was part of WW II. WW II started in 1939 and France and Thailand were both participants in WW II. .........

Sorry to drag it out, Marky, but your dates don't seem to be chronological (or logical).

You first stated that "A year before WWII when he declared war on France there were US fighter planes in the loop to be delivered to Thailand. After he declared war on France the US stopped delivery of the fighter planes and froze all of the Thai assets in the US." I may be wrong, but I believe WWII started in 1939; a year before that is 1938. I corrected you, that "Thai assets in the US were not frozen by Roosevelt until 1941, when the US entered the war at the same time as the US froze Japanese assets in the US" and you are now disagreeing with me but saying that these assets were "frozen 6 months before the US entry into the war."? 6 months before the US entered the war was 1941 - what are you disagreeing with?

You repeat that "Thailand declared war on France". I disagree. Could you give any reference with any evidence of a declaration of war on France by Thailand, preferably with a date?

You repeat that "the Franco Thai war was part of WW II". Again, I disagree as do historians; it was concurrent, but not part of WWII - all other "parts" are theatres of WWII, while the Franco-Thai war is invariably considered a separate war in its own right. Just because both countries were participants in WWII does not of itself make them declared adversaries - it is far from that simple. The Soviet Union and Japan, for example, were both participants in WWII, on opposite sides, but the Japanese-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact lasted from 1941 (and effectively from the end of the Soviet-Japanese Border War in 1939, immediately preceding WWII) until 8 August 1945, one week before VJ Day.

No arguments with the rest of your history, though.

[mark45y]

Lets take them one at a time.

You said that the US froze Japanese assets when they entered WWII against Japan. December 1941.

I'm saying, no they didn't.

The US froze Japanese assets and stopped shipping petroleum products (US supplied Japan with 80% of its oil) and scrap steel 6 months before the war. July 1941 froze assets. August 1941 oil and steel embargo.

This is one of the reasons Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because they needed the Dutch oil to replace the US oil.

The US froze the assets and stopped shipment of vital supplies to Japan to get them out of China.

[purplehaze]

Found this military history of France quite amusing.http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

[007]

Japan invaded the country and engaged the Thai Army for six to eight hours before Plaek Pibulsonggram ordered an armistice.

Because it was already past lunch time, and the Thai soldiers insisted on 'gin kao'...

[Richard W]

If you have any evidence of Thai forces fighting the KMT anywhere please post it.

Unfortunately my sources are not exactly primary sources, but here goes:

Japanese communication before invasion - presumably a translation.

A history of the invasion and occupation of Kengtung

Non-Relationship of KMT in the Shan States during and after the war

Let me turn the question round. Who did Thailand fight there if not the Chinese?

I´ve checked on the Tai Khuen pronunciation, and it seems that like the normal Shan, they simplify the vowel to plain /e/. Unaspirated Chengtung seems to be a far from unique name in that part of the world.

[harrry]

Just of the top of my head without fact checking a little history may be in order. Feel free to correct me.

Taking December 7th Pearl Harbor as the end date lets go back 20 years. 20 years is not a long time. Today I don't feel 1980 is ancient history. So if I was Thai in 1940, 20 years before 1920 what was happening.

Phibun was going to school in France. During that time he was effected by the revolutionary thoughts prevalent at the time. He came back to Thailand and overthrew the absolute monarchy which was replaced by a constitutional monarchy five years later. The new king was only a child and lived in Switzerland.

It was not the same situation as today. The deification of certain elements of Thai society was not the same as today. All of Siam did not speak Bangkok Thai. There were few roads. Society was Bangkok and the rest of Thailand and they were separate groups.

Phibun became Prime minister and wanted to change Thailand from a rural society into a modern society. People did not eat with forks and spoons (hands), the women were topless and men wore skirts. Thailand was not the same place as it is today. Phibun passed a bunch of laws that most people did not like. He also needed money to turn Thailand into a modern society. Realize in the 1930's and 1940's opium was legal and it was normal to have an opium pipe after dinner in hi so homes in Bangkok. Phibun also hated the Chinese who he thought were the "Jews of Asia" (from a book by that title). I won't go into the reasons but suffice it to say the Bangkok elite did not like the Chinese at all. Phibun set his sights on the opium growing regions outside of Thailand to finance part of this modernization. He made a deal with the Japanese and then in 1940 attacked areas under French control starting the Franco Thai war.

It woul,d be interesting to compare Turkey's Attaturk and Phibun. at first glance they are rather similar in their reforming zeal and actions though arguably Attaturk was more effective.