Thai Village Chief Control And Power:

[selftaopath]

The village chiefs in and around our village in Isaan seem to have much control and power. Has this power been delegated by the central government, or have these chiefs decided to make policy according to their individual interests?

These chiefs seem to hold power over property and air. They seem to have the right to decide how property is used and feel entitled to go onto anyone’s personal property. They also decide issues like: if fishing is permitted in large reservoirs, if/when to broadcast extremely loud and intrusive messages vie numerous and strategically located pole mounted loudspeakers. These broadcasts can start as early as 4:00 AM, but usually start around 5:30 AM, and can be heard for long distances. These “broadcasts” occur several times a week. How much is sanctioned by the central Thai government? How much power do village chiefs wield? How are they elected? I have heard stories that elections are “shams” and that any/all who wish to vie for said position of Village Chief almost automatically are told they lost the election and no re-count or confirmation is allowed. Is there really freedom or choice in Thailand’s rural villages? It appears Thai village dwellers must endure conditions set by these apparent “lords of the land.”

[Thaddeus]

Yep, that's about right.

[rgs2001uk]

Nothing but relics from a bygone era.

Full of their own self importance, I blame face and the feudal system.

[chuang]

These are the so-called Ban Nok politicians...same as those in the government...Jury, Judge and Executioners..3 in 1..

[elshaheen]

Yeap, Ole Chief Stink Bottom is at it again.

[soundman]

Not really Bkk area.

Moved to general forum for further discussion.

[afarang]

Welcome to Thailand. Enjoy your stay. May it be long and prosperous

[gotlost]

In my wife's village the headman is a women and a very close personal friend to boot.

[Kwasaki]

Go sit with Chief smoke (wacky backy) "who said that" make peace with Chief, your not Thai enjoy your stay.

[gotlost]

My wife's family has benefited by a change of regime in her village and for that mater the whole village has benefited.

Edited November 8, 2010 by gotlost

[afarang]

My wife's family has benefited by a change of regime in her village and for that mater the whole village has benefited.

Yes, and that with I totally agree .Our new Phu Yai Ban is wonderful.Maybe , one day ,I can tell you the antics of our previous incumbent.But of course , he was a Chinese Thai,as was his wife. A finer pair of rip off merchants you would be hard pressed to find anywhere. Now ,we have an Isarn Thai Thai . Excellent .May long he reign. Sadly ,does not solve the problem of the loud speakers. It seems most people in my village have developed a knack of not hearing them. I am not quite so advanced

[473geo]

My wife's family has benefited by a change of regime in her village and for that mater the whole village has benefited.

I see a great deal of animated discussion regarding village matters, My wife is actively involved, but only in supporting her friend who is also female and also recently elected.

I too see change for the better, the younger members of the community no longer sit back if they feel they are disadvantaged, they will instigate movement for change.

Edited November 8, 2010 by 473geo

[swissie]

The village chiefs are (or were) the power base of Mr. Thaksin.

But according to some free-thinking spirits in Thailand: In the end, it will not matter if the "Bangkok-Elite" or the "Village-Chiefs" and their representatives will finally gain control of "the gouvernement". = Very little will trickle down to the poorest of the poor in Thailand. Namely the Isaan rice farmers. This is not a political statement. It's more like mathematics, based on Thai Culture and Thai History. Cheers.

[473geo]

The village chiefs are (or were) the power base of Mr. Thaksin.

But according to some free-thinking spirits in Thailand: In the end, it will not matter if the "Bangkok-Elite" or the "Village-Chiefs" and their representatives will finally gain control of "the gouvernement". = Very little will trickle down to the poorest of the poor in Thailand. Namely the Isaan rice farmers. This is not a political statement. It's more like mathematics, based on Thai Culture and Thai History. Cheers.

Indeed, making the fair distribution of any funds received even more important, perhaps this is a realisation that is spurring change.

[afarang]

The village chiefs are (or were) the power base of Mr. Thaksin.

But according to some free-thinking spirits in Thailand: In the end, it will not matter if the "Bangkok-Elite" or the "Village-Chiefs" and their representatives will finally gain control of "the gouvernement". = Very little will trickle down to the poorest of the poor in Thailand. Namely the Isaan rice farmers. This is not a political statement. It's more like mathematics, based on Thai Culture and Thai History. Cheers.

I feel you are too pessimistic. I see real change in my village.Positive change. By no means is it going to be rapid. But it is change. Also the fact that many more women are becoming "Phu Yai Bans" can only be a good thing. This has never happened before. More power to them. Hopefully, it will go up the ladder.But it will be a long time before the "Glass ceiling is broken".The power of the Chinese Thai Males us going to some breaking.

[IMA_FARANG]

Someone posted an article on this forum a few months back regarding what the person who wrote the article refered to as (I believe) the Phu Yai syatem (may have that wrong, but it's how I remember it) in Thailand and it's place in the political and socio-economic class structure in Thailand. The writer pointed out how this system worked to enforce the domination of the ruling "elite", those with money and influence, as their agents in the control of the poor (mainly farners and villagers" in Issan. The head men act as the agents and derive their position and authority over the villagers and farmers from their control of the flow of wealth and privaledges down from elite above through the Head Men to the poor below. The village Head men that way are of value to the wealthy elite above, as they can control and manipulate the villagers and poor farmers through tha allocation of "favors" from the Village Heads.

But don't asume that the villagers and farmers are "stupid" and don't know they are being controlled and manipulted. They are not "stupid", they know when they are getting screwed by authority...even if only a village Head man. So the fact that the institution has survived for so long seems to show that the villagers get some benefit from it, or the head men wouldn't be able to control the villagers. Maybe the Head man system continues to exist because the villagers and poor farmers, if they can arrange for the Head man to do them a "favor", get some benefits from the Village Head man"s "favors".

Rather like gambleing ....where you only win one in every ten rolls...but that is just enough to keep the hope alive that you will be able to get another "win" if you keep betting. It may not be perfect, but it is the best you've got.

Edited November 8, 2010 by IMA_FARANG

[Beetlejuice]

I love all the loud speaker stuff at 5.30 in the morning usually followed by the monks chanting, the chickens cock a doodle doing and the packs of dogs howling like wolves during the middle of the night.

This is what makes Thailand so unique and makes me realise that this is a different world to how things are back in the old country.

I cannot understand why foreigners that come here to live, for some reasons expect the infrastructure, laws, rules and general society to be run on a similar basis to that of the west?

The foreigners seem confused and bewildered by what is going on around them and continually questioning about Thai social order and culture that appears to be beyond their understanding.

As the wise man says; this is Thailand, meaning, yes it is a little backward and it is not perfect, but except it for what it is and enjoy. But of course what is perfection can be interpreted in many ways or in the eye of the beholder.

Thailand can be a home from home if you go along with the flow, keeping in mind that you either grin and bare it, stay happy and savour your time here. Otherwise you're going to suffer an extremely miserable existence indeed.

And BTW IMA FARANG, everytime I see your avatar it makes me think of old Albert Tatlock from Coranation Street in my younger days.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Beetlejuice

[DP25]

Maybe the Head man system continues to exist because the villagers and poor farmers, if they can arrange for the Head man to do them a "favor", get some benefits from the Village Head man"s "favors".

I think it's more that it survives on inertia. It has been in place for so long that it takes time to die, and the red shirt movement is actively fighting for the continuation of this loot based feudal system.

[surayu]

our Puiay Ban apparently promised to redo all local roads at the beginning of this almost gone 2010, then when the time came he just said that all the money have disappeared, he's not even been transfered to an inactive post after that.....

[canopy]

I love all the loud speaker stuff at 5.30 in the morning

How is this for a solution then. Everyone that likes this should request one loud speaker be moved from a pole outside to a position INSIDE their house, preferably to the bedroom pointed at the pillow. That would be so perfect wouldn't it? Those that need that blast of meaningless noise to break the monotony before the sun comes up get it on steroids, the head honcho can still feel important, and the rest of us can sleep peacefully just like countless centuries when Thai villages had no electricity. Ahh and then I wake up...

[Atmos]

We're not Isaan, sth Sa Kaeo but same rules maybe apply . . .

My gf was asked to stand for local pu yai ban when the incumbent retires (they have to at 60) in January 2011. Enough of the locals have had enough of the 'old system' and decided someone 'educated' with finance/accts background would be a good change.

She has declined on basis we're not committed to staying here.

Does show them to be more progressive than I expected; local legend is that her late father was the best 'pyb ever'.

No idea re the finances etc re the current guy but he seems pleasant enough, came around and handed out petanque and badminton sets at start of recent school hols and is active in keeping a local cultural/dance group active. I think it's more of a case of him being out of his depth - well-meaning but no financial exp apart from running his farm.

As for the real finances, who'd know? Understand it pays 9000 per month, plus extras whatever they may be.

The loudspeakers? Time to get up. 6am and get children organised to school, usually the b-in-law has his tractor warming up by then anyway.

Sleep-in? Yes we do, but only when we go away on holiday.

[JurgenG]

Thais don't like to rock the boat, so usually nobody is going to contest the decision of the "person in charge", whoever they are.

But they can be influenced .

Also they are not above the law. If you're not happy and think you're right, you can always hire a lawyer. I know a number of people here will loudly disagree with me. I have a question for them : have you ever try ?

[selftaopath]

Go sit with Chief smoke (wacky backy) "who said that" make peace with Chief, your not Thai enjoy your stay.

Thanks for your suggestion. However (to my knowledge) the "chief" and I do not need to smoke a peace pipe. Also I gave up smoking dope years ago. I'm observing his behavior and wondering what amount of authority he weilds.

Cheers,

k

[selftaopath]

My wife's family has benefited by a change of regime in her village and for that mater the whole village has benefited.

My wife told me the "chief" is elected and can "reign" until the age of 60. Unless of course he is "impeached" LOL which seems to NOT be a Thai way.

[selftaopath]

I love all the loud speaker stuff at 5.30 in the morning usually followed by the monks chanting, the chickens cock a doodle doing and the packs of dogs howling like wolves during the middle of the night.

This is what makes Thailand so unique and makes me realise that this is a different world to how things are back in the old country.

I cannot understand why foreigners that come here to live, for some reasons expect the infrastructure, laws, rules and general society to be run on a similar basis to that of the west?

The foreigners seem confused and bewildered by what is going on around them and continually questioning about Thai social order and culture that appears to be beyond their understanding.

As the wise man says; this is Thailand, meaning, yes it is a little backward and it is not perfect, but except it for what it is and enjoy. But of course what is perfection can be interpreted in many ways or in the eye of the beholder.

Thailand can be a home from home if you go along with the flow, keeping in mind that you either grin and bare it, stay happy and savour your time here. Otherwise you're going to suffer an extremely miserable existence indeed.

And BTW IMA FARANG, everytime I see your avatar it makes me think of old Albert Tatlock from Coranation Street in my younger days.

Thank you, for your post. When I read your words I thought about basic human rights. Is it a right to want privacy and/or control of one’s environment/belongings/Self?

Are the particular human rights agencies throughout the world meddling into other countries’ culture/way when they want personal and domain respect? Or perhaps this “rights” is only a Westerner’s mindset. Are basic human rights realized in Thailand? Are they extended to foreigners? If they are not then it might be a personal responsibility to achieve these, because the current system is not consistent or reliable. I have yet to find one foreigner admit that s/he did not strongly object to individuals encroaching on their land or right to quiet. However I have not been in Thailand as long as some others, and am learning everyday. And some of my learning comes vie TV and people with more information than myself for which I am grateful.

Cheers,

k

[bina]

I cannot understand why foreigners that come here to live, for some reasons expect the infrastructure, laws, rules and general society to be run on a similar basis to that of the west?

that has to be the quote of the year..........

the pu yai system is old but seems to work.. on kibbutz we have a similar system ... the person is elected and they are the main honcho but here we have a system of committees that act as the controls on any decsions, plus everything nowadays is written down, laws/regs and approved with lawyers; however the system is similar and the power in reality is very very similar in that tose that are 'close to the plate' get more benefits (favoritism/nepotism) etc. i dont find anything wrong or strange in pu yai baan.

btw, thai hsuband will often complain that we should change our 'pu yai baan' here since he is 'corrupt' or 'not doing his job' . since hubby is issaan village thai, his complaints make it clear that also back home if the villagers want to, they can push for change in pu yai baan. his home village had a corrupt slime bag but has now voted in (as of two years ago or so ) a new, younger, computer literate family man who really is interested in helping improving the village sitauations.

the loudspeakers are residual from when there was no tvs no radios and no phones/cell phones that was the only way to let families knwo they have mail, what important news from bangkok, village news, etc. 'the village cryer' from olden days in the western countries... btw usually the pu yai baan was more literate, also took care of birth/death records, helped (still does) settle disputes so need never get to courts (rather like imam/sheiks in arab villages) and dealt with external political situations since village thai didnt /never suss to actually dealing with external problems...

the hour might bother YOU... but in most villages people are up and around at 4-5 a/m going work/ready for school (kids get up early, cooking, washning clothes, ironing school uniforms, feeding animals or whatever) and most people go to sleep when dark, which is fairly early.

here is the same. people start at 6 a/m with hammering, noise, cars, trucks, but by 21:00 its pretty dead quiet here apart from friday nite parties.

and thailand personal rights in the sense u are used to are not the same. they are a communal people (at least in the villages still, as they are still agrarian) at best where personal rights are 'go with the flow' and individualsm is still frowned upon, so thais might mutter under their breath about a problem but if they are the only ones, they wont complain. but they will find creative ways to solve the problem.

there was someone in isaan forum who is known for 'liberating the elctric wires from the nearby loadspeaker near his house'.... and often peer pressure is more effective then one farang complaining. and yes, they sleep thru it all. husband is able to have tv on whatever channel i watch, morlum on the mp3 at same time, and fall asleep on the sofa. ive obviously learned to do that also. noise that he's used to, he sleeps thru. unusual noise wakes him up. here we have teh gunshots of the arab village weddings every night followed by rock concert volume level arabic dance music all summer long and we barely hear the tv. that drives him bananas and i sleep thru it no prob. but ive been hearing it for 27 yrs already.

ask other farang what ear plugs they use. the topic has come up so often ..........just search village noise/village dogs/village karoake/village motocy, etc

good luck

bina

israel

Edited November 9, 2010 by bina
contextual stuff

[afarang]

Maybe the Head man system continues to exist because the villagers and poor farmers, if they can arrange for the Head man to do them a "favor", get some benefits from the Village Head man"s "favors".

I think it's more that it survives on inertia. It has been in place for so long that it takes time to die, and the red shirt movement is actively fighting for the continuation of this loot based feudal system.

Eh? Red shirts-Loot? The U.N. corruption survey for Thailand, 2000-2010, ,showed that the lowest level of corruption, in Thailand was achieved in, 2005.Please correct me if i am wrong, but was not Mr. Thaksin Prime minister then?The highest level of corruption was achieved in 2007. Please correct me if I am wrong. But was not 2007 Post Coup. ? If so who where the most corrupt?

[Thaddeus]

Maybe the Head man system continues to exist because the villagers and poor farmers, if they can arrange for the Head man to do them a "favor", get some benefits from the Village Head man"s "favors".

I think it's more that it survives on inertia. It has been in place for so long that it takes time to die, and the red shirt movement is actively fighting for the continuation of this loot based feudal system.

Eh? Red shirts-Loot? The U.N. corruption survey for Thailand, 2000-2010, ,showed that the lowest level of corruption, in Thailand was achieved in, 2005.Please correct me if i am wrong, but was not Mr. Thaksin Prime minister then?The highest level of corruption was achieved in 2007. Please correct me if I am wrong. But was not 2007 Post Coup. ? If so who where the most corrupt?

Can you add 'reported corruption' to that and then take a wild stab at what the 'actual corruption' was.

Oates was a hero wasn't he, we only have Scott's word that he made the ultimate sacrifice and didn't end up as a stew.

[whybother]

Maybe the Head man system continues to exist because the villagers and poor farmers, if they can arrange for the Head man to do them a "favor", get some benefits from the Village Head man"s "favors".

I think it's more that it survives on inertia. It has been in place for so long that it takes time to die, and the red shirt movement is actively fighting for the continuation of this loot based feudal system.

Eh? Red shirts-Loot? The U.N. corruption survey for Thailand, 2000-2010, ,showed that the lowest level of corruption, in Thailand was achieved in, 2005.Please correct me if i am wrong, but was not Mr. Thaksin Prime minister then?The highest level of corruption was achieved in 2007. Please correct me if I am wrong. But was not 2007 Post Coup. ? If so who where the most corrupt?

IMO, people are more aware of what corruption is now, so that will reflect on answers given in polls used for these surveys.

[glomp]

The tgf is the daughter of a woman chief, although the husband sure likes to be "vice chief"

The drama lama followed the family around for a while after the deposed previous cheif needed money again. There was a long campaign with death threats, mercenary monks reiling people up and other nasty shit.

At the village vote she wanted out but the village refused and voted her back in.

For some reason the village wanted a chief that records any and all donations and let anyone who feels like it check the books. The alternative was fat dude with a huge cowboy hat that never recorded anything, never told people where the money went and rarely produced funds to ad to the temple.....

So i guess "revolutions" do happen from time to time.