Thai Village Chief Control And Power:

[surayu]

I cannot understand why foreigners that come here to live, for some reasons expect the infrastructure, laws, rules and general society to be run on a similar basis to that of the west?

that has to be the quote of the year..........

Yep, he can stand for the "Thaier than Thai" awards 2553, congratulations

Edit: spelling

Edited November 9, 2010 by surayu

[selftaopath]

I cannot understand why foreigners that come here to live, for some reasons expect the infrastructure, laws, rules and general society to be run on a similar basis to that of the west?

that has to be the quote of the year..........

the pu yai system is old but seems to work.. on kibbutz we have a similar system ... the person is elected and they are the main honcho but here we have a system of committees that act as the controls on any decsions, plus everything nowadays is written down, laws/regs and approved with lawyers; however the system is similar and the power in reality is very very similar in that tose that are 'close to the plate' get more benefits (favoritism/nepotism) etc. i dont find anything wrong or strange in pu yai baan.

btw, thai hsuband will often complain that we should change our 'pu yai baan' here since he is 'corrupt' or 'not doing his job' . since hubby is issaan village thai, his complaints make it clear that also back home if the villagers want to, they can push for change in pu yai baan. his home village had a corrupt slime bag but has now voted in (as of two years ago or so ) a new, younger, computer literate family man who really is interested in helping improving the village sitauations.

the loudspeakers are residual from when there was no tvs no radios and no phones/cell phones that was the only way to let families knwo they have mail, what important news from bangkok, village news, etc. 'the village cryer' from olden days in the western countries... btw usually the pu yai baan was more literate, also took care of birth/death records, helped (still does) settle disputes so need never get to courts (rather like imam/sheiks in arab villages) and dealt with external political situations since village thai didnt /never suss to actually dealing with external problems...

the hour might bother YOU... but in most villages people are up and around at 4-5 a/m going work/ready for school (kids get up early, cooking, washning clothes, ironing school uniforms, feeding animals or whatever) and most people go to sleep when dark, which is fairly early.

here is the same. people start at 6 a/m with hammering, noise, cars, trucks, but by 21:00 its pretty dead quiet here apart from friday nite parties.

and thailand personal rights in the sense u are used to are not the same. they are a communal people (at least in the villages still, as they are still agrarian) at best where personal rights are 'go with the flow' and individualsm is still frowned upon, so thais might mutter under their breath about a problem but if they are the only ones, they wont complain. but they will find creative ways to solve the problem.

there was someone in isaan forum who is known for 'liberating the elctric wires from the nearby loadspeaker near his house'.... and often peer pressure is more effective then one farang complaining. and yes, they sleep thru it all. husband is able to have tv on whatever channel i watch, morlum on the mp3 at same time, and fall asleep on the sofa. ive obviously learned to do that also. noise that he's used to, he sleeps thru. unusual noise wakes him up. here we have teh gunshots of the arab village weddings every night followed by rock concert volume level arabic dance music all summer long and we barely hear the tv. that drives him bananas and i sleep thru it no prob. but ive been hearing it for 27 yrs already.

ask other farang what ear plugs they use. the topic has come up so often ..........just search village noise/village dogs/village karoake/village motocy, etc

good luck

bina

israel

Thanks again Bina for posting.

The Chief seems to make unilateral decisions which might be more for personal choices rather than any law/intellect/ or logic. There does not seem to be any checks and balances. It also seems that – if he chose to – he cold make decisions regarding one’s property/house etc. This I find extremely problematic. Is this Thai democracy?

People here do go to be early – or so it seems. They rise up early but they typically can be seen sleeping in a hammock by 9:30. This lounging around can last for hours and continue throughout the day. I’m not sure how many have jobs out of the home, but many adults can be seen during the day. And I don’t think they work “nights.”

My wife told me a/b the “broadcasts.” The “chief “ is broadcasting how many baht various individuals contributed to the Wat. The list of yeesip baht is long and the message is loud. Regarding broadcasts it appears there is no separation of church and state as in some parts of the world.

I recently was told of “a quiet place.” There are inhabitants scattered throughout this very quiet place. And no one wants to sell any land. J We were there and it is rock solid QUIET. Mostly the land is used to grow cane sugar crops.

Thanks for the suggestions and I have already use earplugs.

[selftaopath]

I love all the loud speaker stuff at 5.30 in the morning

How is this for a solution then. Everyone that likes this should request one loud speaker be moved from a pole outside to a position INSIDE their house, preferably to the bedroom pointed at the pillow. That would be so perfect wouldn't it? Those that need that blast of meaningless noise to break the monotony before the sun comes up get it on steroids, the head honcho can still feel important, and the rest of us can sleep peacefully just like countless centuries when Thai villages had no electricity. Ahh and then I wake up...

I love the solution you suggested. BRILLIANT/ love it. Actually I think I would be glad to pay for each "house" to have their own personal "squawk box" - indoors. They could turn up the volume as they choose and eliminate any need to the ones currently scattered throughout the village on poles (which kind of allows me to think of a concentration camp or prison yard photo). If only this could happen.

[JurgenG]

The Chief seems to make unilateral decisions which might be more for personal choices rather than any law/intellect/ or logic. There does not seem to be any checks and balances. It also seems that – if he chose to – he cold make decisions regarding one's property/house etc. This I find extremely problematic. Is this Thai democracy?

Nobody is above the law. If you're not happy with a decision of the local authority, you can always contest it.

Most people won't do it because ... but in theory you can.

Thai people don't like confrontation. But it works both ways. If you show you won't let people step on your toes they will avoid you in the future.

[canopy]

the loudspeakers are residual from when there was no tvs no radios and no phones/cell phones that was the only way to let families knwo...

I am pretty sure this assertion is incorrect. From what I understand the loudspeaker era we are in now was adopted way back directly from the communist model. So it would seem its roots are control, not dissemination of information. Villages existed before the loudspeaker and will continue to exist after they are gone and that day will come. They are in no way essential, just an odd carryover from a bygone era.

...they have mail, what important news from bangkok, village news, etc

A big problem with the system is it doesn't work for disseminating information. Many villagers are hard of hearing and have no chance. Or a motorcycle with no mufflers goes by during the important part. Or some may not be home when announcement is made. Even the casual observer can clearly see it is completely unreliable. Take my village for example. Every time the loudspeakers turn on there is a dog that starts howling. You know how it is when one starts howling others join in. Before long the whole village is bathed in howling dogs and you can't hear over it to make out what is said on the speakers, but the speech goes on and on. And when it stops, so do the dogs. It reminds me of that part in Shrek II.

the hour might bother YOU... but in most villages people are up and around at 4-5 a/m

3 things:

(1) Loudspeakers are a health issue to the whole village. It is well known throughout the world the harmful impacts of noise at this level. I doubt any village PA system would pass even Thailand's own laws on noise pollution.

(2) It's inconsiderate. Doing something that totally ruins the day for a few because "most people" are up then is sad. Some poor villager may be in ailing health and in desperate need of a little sleep at that time. There is absolutely no reason they should have to put up with that.

(3) it sets a very bad example. Over and over in Thailand I see amplified noise being used to solve a particular need for things that are totally silent in other countries. The village PA system exposes people from an impressionable age onward that loud noise is an ideal tool. People go through life with a lack of awareness of the health risks and consideration for others.

and yes, they sleep thru it all. husband is able to have tv on whatever channel i watch, morlum on the mp3 at same time, and fall asleep on the sofa. ive obviously learned to do that also.

Be careful because while a person can condition themselves to noise, it doesn't make the health pitfalls go away. Think of the people working in discoteks over 100db their whole shift. They are used to it and it becomes normal background noise. But that doesn't in any way save them from the health risks involved.

[selftaopath]

I totally agree with you Canopy. I also think a/b infants and toddlers. Uninterrupted sleep is very important, and youngsters need much of it. Noise adversely effects the CNS, and I was very surprised what I found on Wikipedia re: effects of noise. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia....ects_from_noise

I personally feel the effects of loud noise; yesterday the Wat blasted "music" from 5:30 AM until approx. 10:00 PM. In fear of loosing the little bit of sanity I still have I removed myself from my house and the village. My wife told me to expect the same today, b/c the Wat is having some "donation drive" and of course they want to get attention to their cause. Is this just ?????? ludicrous ? (could use other words I suppose, but minding my manners)

Loud noise can and does send people "over the top." But considering Lack of Sanction's (LOS) educational record it might be 50 years b/f anyone here understands much of this. It might be 100 years b/f any power monger cares.

[craigt3365]

The tgf is the daughter of a woman chief, although the husband sure likes to be "vice chief"

The drama lama followed the family around for a while after the deposed previous cheif needed money again. There was a long campaign with death threats, mercenary monks reiling people up and other nasty shit.

At the village vote she wanted out but the village refused and voted her back in.

For some reason the village wanted a chief that records any and all donations and let anyone who feels like it check the books. The alternative was fat dude with a huge cowboy hat that never recorded anything, never told people where the money went and rarely produced funds to ad to the temple.....

So i guess "revolutions" do happen from time to time.

My wife's village had a guy who stole some of their money...a lot actually...he went to jail and had to pay back the cash. In her village, they are all somewhat related. So when you run for something, your competition is sometimes your brother, nephew, aunt, etc. But the election parties are fun!

[tim armstrong]

They probably save the legal system money. Because they mediate on minor issues like who stole my best chicken,pig,etc, and sometimes sort out wayward youth and local drunks. Much of the time this is unnoticed. But for sure 9,000 a month is not too bad for rural Thailand, so I can see family dynasties wanting to keep this income.

[jubby]

Our Pu yai ban is quite young. He was a local layabout .

He was very hard work at first but he's learning fast. He's matured and does occasionally have common sense.

Saying that, Everything he says on the P.A system comes from local government.

He was elected , its every 4 years I think, but they can vote him out at anytime. . It does help that he comes from the biggest family in the Village. The previous one was quite a good diplomat, and did a better Job I think. The one before him, I can vaguely remember him, He was shot. fingers in too many Pies.

he makes no decisions without first having a Village meeting, where everyone gets to argue the toss over the simplest of things. Assuming its not a decision/directive from local government.

I think on the whole they do quite an important Job. And I've noticed several times that if people (including my Wife) don't agree with him, they just ignore him.

The P.A system is useful also.

[Kilgore Trout]

I remember at my wedding in my wife's parent's village they had the big speakers up and everything from which after the ceremony loud music was blasted. Fair enough; its a day of celebration. Next day no guests, but people milling about here and there, giant speakers gone so puny speakers blasted so loud the woofers were farting. Put up with it for a day; on the third day I'd had enough and told the wife that the music must be turned down; I was going nuts. Wife wasn't happy but the family complied (she didn't like it either but didn't want to make an issue).

I know its not the same thing really but how can people put up with so much racket for so long? Bewilders the he_l out of me. I love my in-laws but can't take the village for too long. Can't imaging living there.

[craigt3365]

They probably save the legal system money. Because they mediate on minor issues like who stole my best chicken,pig,etc, and sometimes sort out wayward youth and local drunks. Much of the time this is unnoticed. But for sure 9,000 a month is not too bad for rural Thailand, so I can see family dynasties wanting to keep this income.

That 9k per month is only the tip of the iceberg....

[surayu]

He was a local layabout .

... ... one of the best definition i read lately, it gave the perfect description of those subjects just laying about, so many of them

[surayu]

" I remember at my wedding in my wife's parent's village" ...... "giant speakers gone so puny speakers blasted so loud the woofers were farting."

Same here, during a local wedding a neighbour located about 400m from us hired a company providing all that party stuff equipments, i couldn't believe how loud they would keep that music, louder than a rock concert in the western world, in fact the speaker were having problems because they were very likely being pushed to that extreme point, also all the guests for some reason decided to park their cars on front of my property, blocking up complitely any way in or out, i immediately understood i had to do something about it and quick, as if all those drivers were going to get drunk, whom knows for how long time i couldn't get access to my home? a curious thing is that no cars were parked on front of the party house.....

[Khonwan]

Most of what has been posted here in this thread to date has been incorrect. Do you guys have no interaction with your Thai neighbours? Or even your partners? A proper conversation with them would reveal all.

I have lived in my village for 14 years (the only foreigner in my village in all that time). I can tell you that the Poo Yai Baan (village head) is NOT in charge of any funds that come from any source via the Tambon – your local OrBorDor (councilor) is responsible for such spending. The Poo Yai Baan does manage other funds (along with an elected committee) such as the Village One Million Baht Scheme and may also obtain funds from other sources such as the military through his/her own efforts.

The Poo Yai Baan is elected by the villagers – those elections are run on the same basis as any other election such as for parliament: villagers are not forced to vote for any particular individual but money talks and votes are purchased. The financial backer of the sitting Poo Yai Baan or an opposing candidate is sometimes a person who expects to benefit, e.g. the local kamnan (who awards contracts for the Sub-District work such as road building and maintenance and who probably has his/her own firm that will usually win the tender), but certainly not always.

Women have also been elected Poo Yai Baan for longer than the 16+ years I’ve lived in Thailand.

Yes, Poo Yai Baans mediate in disputes between villagers. His/her ruling has NO force in law – if you are not willing to have him/her mediate, or are unhappy with the result, you can go to your local police or to the Nai Amphur (the District Governor/Chief), or to a lawyer as has been mentioned.

Poo Yai Baans have no rights over property determination in the case of SorPorKor through chanote titles. They are the initial authority (can still be challenged) to determine the rightful user (‘owner’) of other lands such as BorTor5 since no other record exists other than payment of tax, which doesn’t necessarily prove entitlement.

Village P.A. systems are certainly very annoying for most farangs who happen to live too close to them. But didn’t you (addressing all complaining posters) know about them before you settled in the village? If not, serves you right for not doing some very basic checking like simply staying in the village for a couple of nights before settling there! They don’t bother me for the even simpler reason that I decided to build my house 2km from the rest of the village (1km away from my closest village neighbor).

Bina – good post.

[surayu]

Village P.A. systems are certainly very annoying for most farangs who happen to live too close to them. But didn't you (addressing all complaining posters) know about them before you settled in the village? If not, serves you right for not doing some very basic checking like simply staying in the village for a couple of nights before settling there! They don't bother me for the even simpler reason that I decided to build my house 2km from the rest of the village (1km away from my closest village neighbor).

Bina – good post.

Right, i can't understand complainers either, why getting into that egg if you don't like what's happening out here? you should swim your way back in again isn'it?.....what a crepe suzette of a life

[bina]

i find it interesting that so many poeople find it difficult to except the role of a 'puu yai baan' in their lives. i guess living on an active (not fallen apart) kibbutz helps me understand the functions of one, and they are very important functions within the village society both economically and socially. we have one also; it prevents stupid disputes reaching the level of courts when things can be settled wtihout all the fuss and bother; reduces tensions between groups when needed; is the spokesperson for the village against outsiders ; understands the nuances of the village idiosyncracies so that when needed to change something, knows how and who to manipulate to get the job done

here, our puu yai baan functions now more as a corporate manager, but the economic side of the managment, in terms of poeple and resources (not actual money, we have a treasurer, but the strategy, planning, stages for when and where to build, roads, etc...handling accounts that are not business accounts but 'cultural' for village functions)... also handles disputes about land since we dont own land, but people put in gardens and patios so someoen has to have the final say about who belongs to whom for the moment; when someone is ill and extra help is needed, the puu yai baan can intervene ......

many of thses functions are the same as a puu yai baan for a thai village.i would say that the function of a puu yai baan- in newer expanded modernized villages- will become obsolete as poeple become more and more internet saavy, feel comfortable standing on their own against authorities from land to taxes to demands about roads etc; the same as here, our older folks run straight to our puu yai baan; we in my age group, we prefer to do things ourselves...

i for instance, am still here by the good graces of our previous puu yai baan; since my status (thai hsuband w/o permanant visa, non jewish, not a member here) raises many questions about insurance, housing rights, my rights, the first and precedent for many remarried couples here including one gay couple as far as rights and dues are conerned.... we have a new one now, and i have to,once again, go and present my 'dossier' to her; it will be like starting over. so i am comfortable with this system, and find it useful but am wary of the corrupt ones...

as for noise, well, here we suffer from the gunshots and loud arabic wedding music; and also the trucks that load the chicken feed in to the granaries; they come at night and have a horrible noise that keeps tourists here at teh hotel awake. we sleep thru it for the most part.

my husband has a horror of anything that smacks of communism btw, and cannot really stand my kibbutz way of life because of it. i see thais as very very individualistic in some ways : what they call 'free style'. he rebels against anything that come as 'rules' 'regulations', he finds it constrictive, even if the regs are meant in the long run to benefit him. its a different way of life neither better or worse then ours/yours (since mine is much different to most of your ways of life)

as for village life, villages seem to be changing- younger thais have less respect for the 'old style' of life, puu yai baans, or village life as a 'way'. to them its just a place to live and leave to come back to when older... the new style puu yai baans will have to study or learn methods of managment, economics, etc and also agriculture (there are some that are doing thsi, ive met them here in israel, as plain farm labourers here, but they are intelligent, willing and able to learn, the exposrue to 'outside' elements only benefits them, and they take tis back with them to apply to their villages.)

as usual a long essay, but one that some might find interesting comparison wise; others, well,if your bored, skip over..........

bina

israel

[Kilgore Trout]

i find it interesting that so many poeople find it difficult to except the role of a 'puu yai baan' in their lives. i guess living on an active (not fallen apart) kibbutz helps me understand the functions of one, and they are very important functions within the village society both economically and socially. we have one also; it prevents stupid disputes reaching the level of courts when things can be settled wtihout all the fuss and bother; reduces tensions between groups when needed; is the spokesperson for the village against outsiders ; understands the nuances of the village idiosyncracies so that when needed to change something, knows how and who to manipulate to get the job done

here, our puu yai baan functions now more as a corporate manager, but the economic side of the managment, in terms of poeple and resources (not actual money, we have a treasurer, but the strategy, planning, stages for when and where to build, roads, etc...handling accounts that are not business accounts but 'cultural' for village functions)... also handles disputes about land since we dont own land, but people put in gardens and patios so someoen has to have the final say about who belongs to whom for the moment; when someone is ill and extra help is needed, the puu yai baan can intervene ......

many of thses functions are the same as a puu yai baan for a thai village.i would say that the function of a puu yai baan- in newer expanded modernized villages- will become obsolete as poeple become more and more internet saavy, feel comfortable standing on their own against authorities from land to taxes to demands about roads etc; the same as here, our older folks run straight to our puu yai baan; we in my age group, we prefer to do things ourselves...

i for instance, am still here by the good graces of our previous puu yai baan; since my status (thai hsuband w/o permanant visa, non jewish, not a member here) raises many questions about insurance, housing rights, my rights, the first and precedent for many remarried couples here including one gay couple as far as rights and dues are conerned.... we have a new one now, and i have to,once again, go and present my 'dossier' to her; it will be like starting over. so i am comfortable with this system, and find it useful but am wary of the corrupt ones...

as for noise, well, here we suffer from the gunshots and loud arabic wedding music; and also the trucks that load the chicken feed in to the granaries; they come at night and have a horrible noise that keeps tourists here at teh hotel awake. we sleep thru it for the most part.

my husband has a horror of anything that smacks of communism btw, and cannot really stand my kibbutz way of life because of it. i see thais as very very individualistic in some ways : what they call 'free style'. he rebels against anything that come as 'rules' 'regulations', he finds it constrictive, even if the regs are meant in the long run to benefit him. its a different way of life neither better or worse then ours/yours (since mine is much different to most of your ways of life)

as for village life, villages seem to be changing- younger thais have less respect for the 'old style' of life, puu yai baans, or village life as a 'way'. to them its just a place to live and leave to come back to when older... the new style puu yai baans will have to study or learn methods of managment, economics, etc and also agriculture (there are some that are doing thsi, ive met them here in israel, as plain farm labourers here, but they are intelligent, willing and able to learn, the exposrue to 'outside' elements only benefits them, and they take tis back with them to apply to their villages.)

as usual a long essay, but one that some might find interesting comparison wise; others, well,if your bored, skip over..........

bina

israel

As usual a thoughtful post, Bina.

I have never found Thais to be individualistic in any sense, self-centered perhaps (not being critical, just honest), please elaborate on your thoughts.

The Kibbutzim are certainly becoming more like corporate communes compared to the original socialist movement. I have spent time on a few of them.