Nationwide Bs

[cardholder]

The exchange rate isn't great.

Are you saying this is true even if you send the money in Sterling and get the conversion done at the Thai end? There are several people in threads in the Banking section who reckon this is the best deal.

Halifax show you the rate that is offered before you agree to send. The rate is curtailed. Check it for yourself.

Do not take the rate. Simply transfer Sterling to your Thai bank and youwill get the rate for the day at that bank - far better than 'on-shore' rates.

[cardholder]

The exchange rate isn't great.

Are you saying this is true even if you send the money in Sterling and get the conversion done at the Thai end? There are several people in threads in the Banking section who reckon this is the best deal.

Halifax show you the rate that is offered before you agree to send. The rate is curtailed. Check it for yourself.

Do not take the rate. Simply transfer Sterling to your Thai bank and youwill get the rate for the day at that bank - far better than 'on-shore' rates.

[easyride]

Nationwide charge 2% plus £1 on their debit card. From where did you get the 1% story?

There would also not be a need to move to London. You only need to visit in order to open the account. Once complete, you can use Internet banking. Plus there is still the option of N&P from next year.

Touche on Nationwide's 2%, still the lowest charges of the major UK banks for cash withdrawals from an ATM (until 2011) and as has been said above, you break the T&Cs of a credit card by loading it up. Take the Halifax Clarity - 12.7% (if you can get that rate) from the day of withdrawal. Not very practicable to dash to the nearest internet shop for a fast payment and very dodgy in my opinion, they'd soon catch on and put a stop to that.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

The exchange rate isn't great.

Are you saying this is true even if you send the money in Sterling and get the conversion done at the Thai end? There are several people in threads in the Banking section who reckon this is the best deal.

Halifax show you the rate that is offered before you agree to send. The rate is curtailed. Check it for yourself.

Do not take the rate. Simply transfer Sterling to your Thai bank and youwill get the rate for the day at that bank - far better than 'on-shore' rates.

Perhaps someone can try it and then let us know the rate received. Then we can compare. Has someone else already done this? If so I would like to take a look.

Here is a promo code for a £2 discount on the Halifax service, making the transfer cost £7.50: GOHX10

[citizen33]

I wrote that you have to be prudent when you use the credit cards. I didn't think that I needed to spell it out. But, it's as simple as withdrawing an amount and then immediately covering the amount via a Faster Payment transfer to the account from your bank account. Since the payments are credited within two hours, I can't imagine there will be any interest to be paid.

Though with the SAGA card, there is no need to go through that palaver. You can and should prepay that card if you intend to use it for cash withdrawals. You can use it like a debit card.

Thank you. I think the greater precision that has come out of the discussion (as opposed to terms like pre-pay without qualification) is helpful. The Saga info is useful. I do think you are wrong on the Halifax transfer, however, where I think Cardholder has set out the position correctly. I have used my Halifax account for other international transfers, but this month will be the first time for Thailand, and if I have any problem I will report back.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Nationwide charge 2% plus £1 on their debit card. From where did you get the 1% story?

There would also not be a need to move to London. You only need to visit in order to open the account. Once complete, you can use Internet banking. Plus there is still the option of N&P from next year.

Touche on Nationwide's 2%, still the lowest charges of the major UK banks for cash withdrawals from an ATM (until 2011) and as has been said above, you break the T&Cs of a credit card by loading it up. Take the Halifax Clarity - 12.7% (if you can get that rate) from the day of withdrawal. Not very practicable to dash to the nearest internet shop for a fast payment and very dodgy in my opinion, they'd soon catch on and put a stop to that.

Are you on an advertising drive? Trying to pull the wool over our eyes? It might be better than the worst, but it certainly isn't the best. Major UK bank? It isn't even a bank! It is a Building Society, just like the Norwich & Peterborough.

I can't remember the last time that I actually went into a branch. Branches won't be important to most of the users here anyway. So major and bank means nothing.

You are wrong about the Halifax card. The T&Cs are against loading the card with more than you owe. There is nothing dodgy about paying your bills earliest. What are you thinking?!?

You absolutely don't have to wait until your statement is produced. Waiting is just numbskull thinking.

So if one chooses to cover ones spending immediately, that is their prerogative. If they can't get Internet access that day, they can go the next or the next.....it will STILL be cheaper than the Nationwide.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

I wrote that you have to be prudent when you use the credit cards. I didn't think that I needed to spell it out. But, it's as simple as withdrawing an amount and then immediately covering the amount via a Faster Payment transfer to the account from your bank account. Since the payments are credited within two hours, I can't imagine there will be any interest to be paid.

Though with the SAGA card, there is no need to go through that palaver. You can and should prepay that card if you intend to use it for cash withdrawals. You can use it like a debit card.

Thank you. I think the greater precision that has come out of the discussion (as opposed to terms like pre-pay without qualification) is helpful. The Saga info is useful. I do think you are wrong on the Halifax transfer, however, where I think Cardholder has set out the position correctly. I have used my Halifax account for other international transfers, but this month will be the first time for Thailand, and if I have any problem I will report back.

No I'm not wrong, because I haven't taken a position. I am right in that the exchange rate that Halifax offer is not good. The information that you can let the Thai bank do the exchange was news to me, so I'm hoping to hear more about they exchange rate offered by the Thai banks. e.g. Whether it will be the Cash or TT rate.

Use the promo code to save an extra couple of quid. You can use it up to three times.

[citizen33]

No I'm not wrong, because I haven't taken a position. I am right in that the exchange rate that Halifax offer is not good. The information that you can let the Thai bank do the exchange was news to me, so I'm hoping to hear more about they exchange rate offered by the Thai banks. e.g. Whether it will be the Cash or TT rate.

Use the promo code to save an extra couple of quid. You can use it up to three times.

Have it your way, but doing the conversion at the Thai end is something that has been repeatedly emphasized in the threads where the Halifax swift transfer was previously discussed, so I think you may have been the only one out of the loop on this. Thank you very much for the promo code, which I shall use.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

I'll still use my Nationwide accounts....to transfer money to other banks.

Not every solution will suit, but if you can get one or two working for you it should be enough.

At least there is life after the Nationwide, which is the point of these threads.

I'm lucky that most of the options are viable for me as I travel my own computer. So no need to go to an Internet Cafe.

But then I already have current accounts with the aforementioned, so no need to worry about paying bills early either.

The point is to illustrate clearly the options and let the individual decide which is best for their circumstances.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

No I'm not wrong, because I haven't taken a position. I am right in that the exchange rate that Halifax offer is not good. The information that you can let the Thai bank do the exchange was news to me, so I'm hoping to hear more about the exchange rate offered by the Thai banks. e.g. Whether it will be the Cash or TT rate.

Use the promo code to save an extra couple of quid. You can use it up to three times.

Have it your way, but doing the conversion at the Thai end is something that has been repeatedly emphasized in the threads where the Halifax swift transfer was previously discussed, so I think you may have been the only one out of the loop on this. Thank you very much for the promo code, which I shall use.

I think that you have misunderstood what I have written. Read it again. I'll put the relevant text in bold.

In other words, I am saying that I didn't know that and and I'm interested to get the exchange rate details from you when you get them, so that we can see if the Thai bank offers you the exchange rate for cash or Telex Transfers(a higher rate than the cash rate and closer to the rate we were used to with the Nationwide).

I hope it's clearer now.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Jiu-Jitsu

[citizen33]

No I'm not wrong, because I haven't taken a position. I am right in that the exchange rate that Halifax offer is not good. The information that you can let the Thai bank do the exchange was news to me, so I'm hoping to hear more about they exchange rate offered by the Thai banks. e.g. Whether it will be the Cash or TT rate.

Use the promo code to save an extra couple of quid. You can use it up to three times.

Have it your way, but doing the conversion at the Thai end is something that has been repeatedly emphasized in the threads where the Halifax swift transfer was previously discussed, so I think you may have been the only one out of the loop on this. Thank you very much for the promo code, which I shall use.

I think that you have misunderstood what I have written. Read it again. I'll put the relevant text in bold.

In other words, I am saying that I didn't know that and and I'm interested to get the exchange rate details from you when you get them, so that we can see if the Thai bank offers you the exchange rate for cash or Telex Transfers(a higher rate than the cash rate and closest to the rate we were used to with the Nationwide).

I hope it's clearer now.

I did read your comment that 'the information that you can let the Thai bank do the exchange was news to me'. I simply observed that, if you had read the many threads on this topic, you would know that was a key part of the equation, and you would then not have needed to make reference to an option that nobody on the forum has ever advocated (i.e. letting Halifax use their rate to do the exchange). But you have posted such useful information on other matters that I am happy for you to have the last word. Thanks again.If I can get the rate at the end of the month I will post it.

Edited November 8, 2010 by citizen33

[cardholder]

No I'm not wrong, because I haven't taken a position. I am right in that the exchange rate that Halifax offer is not good. The information that you can let the Thai bank do the exchange was news to me, so I'm hoping to hear more about the exchange rate offered by the Thai banks. e.g. Whether it will be the Cash or TT rate.

Use the promo code to save an extra couple of quid. You can use it up to three times.

Have it your way, but doing the conversion at the Thai end is something that has been repeatedly emphasized in the threads where the Halifax swift transfer was previously discussed, so I think you may have been the only one out of the loop on this. Thank you very much for the promo code, which I shall use.

I think that you have misunderstood what I have written. Read it again. I'll put the relevant text in bold.

In other words, I am saying that I didn't know that and and I'm interested to get the exchange rate details from you when you get them, so that we can see if the Thai bank offers you the exchange rate for cash or Telex Transfers(a higher rate than the cash rate and closer to the rate we were used to with the Nationwide).

I hope it's clearer now.

I have just logged in to halifax and K Bank.

The following is what you can see if you log in to KBanking with Kasikorn:-

Currency Exchange Rates

Last Updated : 08 Nov 2010, 4:20 pm Foreign Currencies Buying Rates Selling Rates Bank Notes Traveller's Cheques Export Sight Bill Telex Transfer TT & Draft T/Cheques Bank Notes EUR 40.57650 40.81250 40.81250 40.95250 41.47875 41.69875 GBP 46.82225 47.30625 47.30625 47.4675 48.05000 48.5

The following is what yousee on the exchange rate illustration with Halifax:-

GBP Amount £ 1,000.00 GBP Fee £ 9.50 GBP Total £ 1,009.50 Thai Baht (THB) Amount 45,213.40 Exchange rate 45.2134

That is a whole 2 Baht difference - whether we title these Telex rate, offshore rate, onshore rate, cash rate, inter-bank rate doesn't matter.

K Bank will charge on the incoming SWIFT transfer. I think the following is still valid:-

The beneficiary will also be charged by KASIKORNBANK on the rate of 0.25% of the transferred amount (minimum 200 baht and maximum 500 baht)

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Nationwide charge 2% plus £1 on their debit card. From where did you get the 1% story?

There would also not be a need to move to London. You only need to visit in order to open the account. Once complete, you can use Internet banking. Plus there is still the option of N&P from next year.

Touche on Nationwide's 2%, still the lowest charges of the major UK banks for cash withdrawals from an ATM (until 2011) and as has been said above, you break the T&Cs of a credit card by loading it up. Take the Halifax Clarity - 12.7% (if you can get that rate) from the day of withdrawal. Not very practicable to dash to the nearest internet shop for a fast payment and very dodgy in my opinion, they'd soon catch on and put a stop to that.

Have replied to your PM.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

No I'm not wrong, because I haven't taken a position. I am right in that the exchange rate that Halifax offer is not good. The information that you can let the Thai bank do the exchange was news to me, so I'm hoping to hear more about the exchange rate offered by the Thai banks. e.g. Whether it will be the Cash or TT rate.

Use the promo code to save an extra couple of quid. You can use it up to three times.

Have it your way, but doing the conversion at the Thai end is something that has been repeatedly emphasized in the threads where the Halifax swift transfer was previously discussed, so I think you may have been the only one out of the loop on this. Thank you very much for the promo code, which I shall use.

I think that you have misunderstood what I have written. Read it again. I'll put the relevant text in bold.

In other words, I am saying that I didn't know that and and I'm interested to get the exchange rate details from you when you get them, so that we can see if the Thai bank offers you the exchange rate for cash or Telex Transfers(a higher rate than the cash rate and closer to the rate we were used to with the Nationwide).

I hope it's clearer now.

I have just logged in to halifax and K Bank.

The following is what you can see if you log in to KBanking with Kasikorn:-

Currency Exchange Rates

Last Updated : 08 Nov 2010, 4:20 pm Foreign Currencies Buying Rates Selling Rates Bank Notes Traveller's Cheques Export Sight Bill Telex Transfer TT & Draft T/Cheques Bank Notes EUR 40.57650 40.81250 40.81250 40.95250 41.47875 41.69875 GBP 46.82225 47.30625 47.30625 47.4675 48.05000 48.5

The following is what yousee on the exchange rate illustration with Halifax:-

GBP Amount £ 1,000.00 GBP Fee £ 9.50 GBP Total £ 1,009.50 Thai Baht (THB) Amount 45,213.40 Exchange rate 45.2134

That is a whole 2 Baht difference - whether we title these Telex rate, offshore rate, onshore rate, cash rate, inter-bank rate doesn't matter.

K Bank will charge on the incoming SWIFT transfer. I think the following is still valid:-

The beneficiary will also be charged by KASIKORNBANK on the rate of 0.25% of the transferred amount (minimum 200 baht and maximum 500 baht)

Ok, I think there is confusion building here, so I will attempt to clear it.

We are agreed that the Halifax offer a horrible exchange rate. but citizen33 informs us that we can bypass the Halifax exchange rate and allow the Thai bank to do the exchange. So it is to this exchange rate to which we refer now. Not that horrible Halifax exchange rate.

When citizen33 makes his transfer, perhaps he can update us to the rate received. So that we can compare it to the rates on the Thai banks website and the VISA/Mastercard rates.

Once the figures are known, then people can decide better which option is the most cost effective for their circumstances.

I'm sure quite a few people's incomes have been affected by the state of the British economy, so this information is probably more important than ever to them.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

No I'm not wrong, because I haven't taken a position. I am right in that the exchange rate that Halifax offer is not good. The information that you can let the Thai bank do the exchange was news to me, so I'm hoping to hear more about they exchange rate offered by the Thai banks. e.g. Whether it will be the Cash or TT rate.

Use the promo code to save an extra couple of quid. You can use it up to three times.

Have it your way, but doing the conversion at the Thai end is something that has been repeatedly emphasized in the threads where the Halifax swift transfer was previously discussed, so I think you may have been the only one out of the loop on this. Thank you very much for the promo code, which I shall use.

I think that you have misunderstood what I have written. Read it again. I'll put the relevant text in bold.

In other words, I am saying that I didn't know that and and I'm interested to get the exchange rate details from you when you get them, so that we can see if the Thai bank offers you the exchange rate for cash or Telex Transfers(a higher rate than the cash rate and closest to the rate we were used to with the Nationwide).

I hope it's clearer now.

I did read your comment that 'the information that you can let the Thai bank do the exchange was news to me'. I simply observed that, if you had read the many threads on this topic, you would know that was a key part of the equation, and you would then not have needed to make reference to an option that nobody on the forum has ever advocated (i.e. letting Halifax use their rate to do the exchange). But you have posted such useful information on other matters that I am happy for you to have the last word. Thanks again.If I can get the rate at the end of the month I will post it.

Ah... your assumption(not an observation since I have not actually read any of the threads of which you write) was that I had read about any of this. Quite a leap. In fact I don't read any of the financial information on this board.

So when you wrote about the Halifax, the only knowledge that I had was looking at the exchange rate offered and seeing it was poor.

Once you suggested that you could send in pounds and let the Thai bank do the exchange, I expressed interest.

Nothing to do with having the last word, you just made an erroneous assumption about me. I don't know everything.

But I'll know a little more when you come back with the figures. If it's the TT rate with just the 0.25% deduction referred to by cardholder, then it won't be too bad at all.

Though it would have to be a worthwhile transfer in order to cover the fees.

See you later then.

I

[cardholder]

It is the TT rate - that is why I posted it

[Kwasaki]

We don't have Aeon here in Sukhothai, l drew max money from Nationwide from atm Ayutthaya yesterday got 13,500 + 150 = 13,650 bht @ £284.39.could of got 14,000 but machine went cranky.

That seems like a good rate. Seems that you have left out the 2% plus £1 charge?

l live in Thailand but still have a UK address, don't know what you were meant in one previous post.

This post !! No thats what's shown on the online bank statement usually an all in total charge.

l checked Septembers bank statement when l last drew money there were no extra charges.

l find l get a better rate using Ayutthaya who not long ago didn't charge 150bht for a long time when all the other main banks were.

Bangkok bank l find or seem to be the worse.

When l look on xe.com chart the pound as been going up and down like a yo-yo during hours.

Also Nationwide are a building society and are not so hard lined like banks, my Thai wife and l have sole and a joint accounts with them, which was good when the rate was reasonable, we could max out on all four the same day.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Kwasaki

[Jiu-Jitsu]

We don't have Aeon here in Sukhothai, l drew max money from Nationwide from atm Ayutthaya yesterday got 13,500 + 150 = 13,650 bht @ £284.39.could of got 14,000 but machine went cranky.

That seems like a good rate. Seems that you have left out the 2% plus £1 charge?

l live in Thailand but still have a UK address, don't know what you were meant in one previous post.

This post !! No thats what's shown on the online bank statement usually an all in total charge.

l checked Septembers bank statement when l last drew money there were no extra charges.

l find l get a better rate using Ayutthaya who not long ago didn't charge 150bht for a long time when all the other main banks were.

Bangkok bank l find or seem to be the worse.

When l look on xe.com chart the pound as been going up and down like a yo-yo during hours.

Also Nationwide are a building society and are not so hard lined like banks, my Thai wife and l have sole and a joint accounts with them, which was good when the rate was reasonable, we could max out on all four the same day.

The new charges were not introduced until this month. So you'll need to check this month's statement.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

It is the TT rate - that is why I posted it

Are you stating that you have sent £s using the Halifax service and have received the TT rate minus 0.25%?

If so, can you post the details of your actual transaction so that we can compare?

[Kwasaki]

The new charges were not introduced until this month. So you'll need to check this month's statement.

Oh !! well roundabouts and swings as always with a couple of roller-coaster thrown in.

Still never mind it is still not worth me going back to England just yet, the airfare would negate any extra charges.

[cardholder]

It is the TT rate - that is why I posted it

Are you stating that you have sent £s using the Halifax service and have received the TT rate minus 0.25%?

If so, can you post the details of your actual transaction so that we can compare?

Jiu Jitsu - I have posted on many occasions about these transfers.

Quite simply, remit Sterling and (in my case) Kasikorn will convert on the day of receipt at the prevailing "TT" rate (it moves throughout the day) less their charges.

If you want to calculate your true "net cost" of the transaction take the amount credited by K Bank e.g. 47,300 and divide it by the amount debited by Halifax e.g. 1,009.50 and you come up with a net rate of 46.85. This would equate to a TT rate of 47.50 at the time of the transaction

[Jiu-Jitsu]

It is the TT rate - that is why I posted it

Are you stating that you have sent £s using the Halifax service and have received the TT rate minus 0.25%?

If so, can you post the details of your actual transaction so that we can compare?

Jiu Jitsu - I have posted on many occasions about these transfers.

Quite simply, remit Sterling and (in my case) Kasikorn will convert on the day of receipt at the prevailing "TT" rate (it moves throughout the day) less their charges.

If you want to calculate your true "net cost" of the transaction take the amount credited by K Bank e.g. 47,300 and divide it by the amount debited by Halifax e.g. 1,009.50 and you come up with a net rate of 46.85. This would equate to a TT rate of 47.50 at the time of the transaction

Ok, thanks for the confirmation. Will keep it in mind as an option for larger amounts, especially as K Bank has capped their fee at a maximum of 500 baht.

£18 for a transfer of say £10000 is not unreasonable.

[cardholder]

Ok, thanks for the confirmation. Will keep it in mind as an option for larger amounts, especially as K Bank has capped their fee at a maximum of 500 baht.

£18 for a transfer of say £10000 is not unreasonable.

More importantly the cost for a transfer of, say. GBP 1,650 is less than GBP 10.00

(Halifax 'reward' you with 5.00 if you credit min GBP 1,000 per month so net cost for SWIFT payment is 4.50. A transfer of GBP1,650 equates to less than 80,000 Baht so K Bank min charge of 200 Baht applies, 4.00 say GBP 4.25 + 4.50 = GBP 8.75)

[Jiu-Jitsu]

The new charges were not introduced until this month. So you'll need to check this month's statement.

Oh !! well roundabouts and swings as always with a couple of roller-coaster thrown in.

Still never mind it is still not worth me going back to England just yet, the airfare would negate any extra charges.

If the fees begin to annoy you, you can apply for the N&P online. Application

Online Banking

Fee free from Jan 1st.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Ok, thanks for the confirmation. Will keep it in mind as an option for larger amounts, especially as K Bank has capped their fee at a maximum of 500 baht.

£18 for a transfer of say £10000 is not unreasonable.

More importantly the cost for a transfer of, say. GBP 1,650 is less than GBP 10.00

(Halifax 'reward' you with 5.00 if you credit min GBP 1,000 per month so net cost for SWIFT payment is 4.50. A transfer of GBP1,650 equates to less than 80,000 Baht so K Bank min charge of 200 Baht applies, 4.00 say GBP 4.25 + 4.50 = GBP 8.75)

Don't forget the promo code for another £2 off.

[cardholder]

Ok, thanks for the confirmation. Will keep it in mind as an option for larger amounts, especially as K Bank has capped their fee at a maximum of 500 baht.

£18 for a transfer of say £10000 is not unreasonable.

More importantly the cost for a transfer of, say. GBP 1,650 is less than GBP 10.00

(Halifax 'reward' you with 5.00 if you credit min GBP 1,000 per month so net cost for SWIFT payment is 4.50. A transfer of GBP1,650 equates to less than 80,000 Baht so K Bank min charge of 200 Baht applies, 4.00 say GBP 4.25 + 4.50 = GBP 8.75)

Don't forget the promo code for another £2 off.

Thanks Jiu-Jitsu - I had forgotten

This is also not JUST about costs.

Costs are important and it is fun to try and beat (or at least get the best out of) the system.

Halifax online is actually very user friendly and I would say the same for K Bank. It is SO easy these days to move money from UK to Thailand - and cost-effectively.

[citizen33]

I was just trying to take stock of the best tips coming out of the thread, and in particular wondering whether to apply for a couple of new credit cards. I already have the PO and NW Gold cards which aren't bad, but may not be quite the best. The Halifax Clarity card would sit nicely alongside my Reward account. From what was posted above on pre-loading I also thought Saga looked good. However, on investigating the latter, I see there is a 2% cash advance fee (which applies to ATM usage) which means it isn't as good as it looks. Longer term, and now talking about debit cards, the Norwich and Peterborough account looks good, and on my next trip to London I may look into the Metro Holborn branch. I think my NW accounts could go at that stage.

Just to get everything together in one place, here is a handy link comparing cards from an earlier thread in the Banking section. If you want travel insurance for a monthly fee the Sainsbury card doesn't look bad.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/cheap-travel-money

Edited November 9, 2010 by citizen33

[Jiu-Jitsu]

I have actually known about the Halifax service for some years, but since I have never needed to remit money to Thailand, I didn't look closely at the exchange rates. So it was good to have confirmation for any future eventuality.

May just set up a Thai account and make a transfer for fun. I already have so many that I've lost count.

Perhaps will be useful something or the other. Already thinking of some uses...

[Jiu-Jitsu]

I was just trying to take stock of the best tips coming out of the thread, and in particular wondering whether to apply for a couple of new credit cards. I already have the PO and NW Gold cards which aren't bad, but may not be quite the best. The Halifax Clarity card would sit nicely alongside my Reward account. From what was posted above on pre-loading I also thought Saga looked good. However, on investigating the latter, I see there is a 2% cash advance fee (which applies to ATM usage) which means it isn't as good as it looks. Longer term, and now talking about debit cards, the Norwich and Peterborough account looks good, and on my next trip to London I may look into the Metro Holborn branch. I think my NW accounts could go at that stage.

Just to get everything together in one place, here is a handy link comparing cards from an earlier thread in the Banking section. If you want travel insurance for a monthly fee the M&S card doesn't look bad.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/cheap-travel-money

Pre-loading removes the cash withdrawal charge. The cash withdrawal charge is only if you use their money.

I think that you meant Sainsburys, not M&S.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Jiu-Jitsu

[GEZMAC]

Thanks guys, some interesting comments, will look into N&P online for sure.