Undertaker Arrested For Hiding 200 Foetuses From Abortion Clinics In Bangkok Temple

[dighambara]

I think a little knowledge of what the late Laung Por Tim from Rayong was famous for is needed here. Legend? Myth? Get real it happens like it or not.

L.P. Tim's Khun Paen Amulets go for 500,000 PLUS, you think that is all because of a story?

Flame me as much as you like I work in the Thai Amulet business, I know.

Para

lemme get this right - is it being suggested that these corpses were possibly going to be used in the manufacture of magic amulets?

and further are you saying that the amulets of Laung Por Tim were the same kind and indeed contain remnants of a baby foetus, hence their percieved potency and high price?

T.I.T. where the bigger the story, the greater the need for the amulet or magic, or whatever. Even to the point of canibalism - eating a dead monk so that he can be inside protecting you.

YEP, Thais believe all of that stuff.

Over the years, I have been helping a professor friend with his Asian Studies / Buddhism classes. From that endeavor and from personal interest, I have examined amulet magazines, spoken with monks, and asked people about their amulets. Much of the practice comes from Animism and Hinduism, which is a large part of Thai Buddhism.

I have 'rented' many hundreds of amulets and statuettes. So, the University collection of Thai artifacts in the US is now quite large and I have acquired a moderate number of amulets and images - my favorite being Ganesh...

I have become well known at the local amulet market and the vendors are always offering me some amulet or another because of it's potency, however, my interest is artistic and cultural value.

This has been a very intersting story of dead babies, amulets and black magic and is an excellent reason to monitor the otherwise boring Thaivisa site...LOL

[geriatrickid]

Other than Illegalabortions can someone please clarify what is criminal here?

Illegal disposal of medical waste?

You are not so far off the mark. It is a major problem since disposal is an expensive process. Usually it gets dumped in the health facility incinerator, but other times it just gets dumped with regular waste.

[Para]

Para, I am not surprised at your quoted prices that you have seen.

I did a bit of looking into the amulet scene here a few years back

and was rather taken aback at the higher end items.

I did get my sister a Jatukamen Ramahtep as a present

when she came here for my wedding. More a souvenir,

but she doesn't mind good luck too.

Animatic when you consider a example of an Amulet made by L.P. Toh some 155 years at Wat Rakhang will EASILY rent for 10,000,000 Baht going to a maximum of 50,000,000 Baht its a lucrative market, especially for fakes.

We all like a bit of good luck and giving her the Jatukamen is a nice Amulet to provide that for her.....

[SergeiY]

You two are familiar with the practice of Guman Thong amulets ?? And the process of creation..

yep, its maybe macabre for certain people. but not a 'macabre crime' with emphasis on crime as some other comment suggested.

So cooking childrens corpses to make special lucky amulets is all find and good in your world ??

As someone else said it, its more like illegal disposal of medical waste. Its tasteless, maybe unethical for some people, but these unborn weren't killed just for the purpose to produce amulets. I don't see here a big crime, nor some victims. The abortion, whatever you may think of this practice, would happened anyway.

Its some hocus pocus okay, so what. there are so many odd beliefs in this world.

[Screws]

I have been told that the older statuettes made from clay or plaster had ashes from cremated fetuses mixed in with the clay or plaster to hold the spirit in the figurines. Most of them today are made of plastic, so it is unlikely there are any ashes mixed in.

Thats of course correct.. in the cheap ones !!

Just google it and read a few of the forums and amulet stories.. The whole ghost child amulet and raising it as a child.. With the help it can bring.

Sadly people believe this.. Enough to pay for it.

Pope Benedict last month said "the growing use of new technologies should set off "an alarm bell" as it was blurring the boundary between truth and illusion".

[Para]

I have become well known at the local amulet market and the vendors are always offering me some amulet or another because of it's potency, however, my interest is artistic and cultural value.

Do you by chance have a 'spare' Pim Yai, WRK you would like to rent me!

[george]

Update:

Over 300 dead fetuses found in Thai Buddhist temple

2010-11-16 21:09:07 GMT+7 (ICT)

BANGKOK, THAILAND (BNO NEWS) -- Nearly 350 dead fetuses have been found in plastic bags inside the morgue of the Buddhist temple Wat Phai Ngern in Bangkok, local authorities said on Tuesday.

Local authorities were initially notified at around 2 p.m. local time on Tuesday and took temple undertaker Suthep Cha-bangbon into custody. He later admitted to have been hired by five abortion clinics to dispose the fetuses.

Abortion is illegal in Thailand with the exception of special medical cases in which the mother is facing health issues during the pregnancy or in rape cases.

After Suthep's arrest, he had claimed to have discovered the fetuses and alerted local authorities. After questioning at the Wat Phayakrai police station, however, he eventually confessed to his doings.

The fetuses were found wrapped in plastic bags of various colors and newspapers, Pol Lt Thananuwat Sitthichai, an investigator at Wat Phrayakrai police station, confirmed, adding that forensic police were continuing the investigation at the scene.

The wrapped fetuses were being hidden in one of the temporary body storage areas of the temple for pending cremation. In Thailand, Buddhist temples commonly perform cremation ceremonies, but also store bodies in special storage areas that are usually refrigerated.

As of late Tuesday, authorities said 348 dead fetuses have been recovered at the temple. However, authorities believe there are more fetuses that will be recovered on Wednesday.

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2010-11-16

[rgs2001uk]

I think a little knowledge of what the late Laung Por Tim from Rayong was famous for is needed here. Legend? Myth? Get real it happens like it or not.

L.P. Tim's Khun Paen Amulets go for 500,000 PLUS, you think that is all because of a story?

Flame me as much as you like I work in the Thai Amulet business, I know.

Para

lemme get this right - is it being suggested that these corpses were possibly going to be used in the manufacture of magic amulets?

and further are you saying that the amulets of Laung Por Tim were the same kind and indeed contain remnants of a baby foetus, hence their percieved potency and high price?

I was searching for something else when I came across this link,

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/thai.asp

If the above doesnt work, click here,

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0011/S00003.htm

Does anyone remember the infamous clinic in Suk soi 71 (about soi 28 or 30) at least 10 years ago?

This is what i was looking for, I remember thinking how strange at the time, no law against it,

http://www.echarcha.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10501

Fascinating thread, one of the best I have read in a long time.

[Tropicalevo]

My first thoughts when I first read the article in an overseas paper were pretty unrepeatable.

However, having been educated by some of the above posts - I can see how things that happen here in Thailand are not always as bad as first painted.

Another way to look at it maybe is karmic re-cycling? Something bad happens - abortion (for whatever reason) and then someone tries to make something good out of it.

That, I can live with.

Thank you for the info people.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Tropicalevo

[Brewsta]

superstition can be ugly and debilitating.

....and quite disturbing on a physical/psychological and mental plane, IMHO.

Good Night to All.

Brewsta

[Para]

My first thoughts when I first read the article in an overseas paper were pretty unrepeatable.

However, having been educated by some of the above posts - I can see how things that happen here in Thailand are not always as bad as first painted.

Another way to look at it maybe is karmic re-cycling? Something bad happens - abortion (for whatever reason) and then someone tries to make something good out of it.

That, I can live with.

Thank you for the info people.

Tropicalevo unfortunately the story behind Khun Paen and Gumantong is actually quite sad. Khun Paen wife Wanthong was killed while carrying Khun Paens baby. He removed the baby and performed a ritual (I know what was involved but I certainly wont put it here as it is too graphic) so his unborn son could to a degree be born. He comes to Khun Paen as a baby ghost and helps his dad as much as he can.

If you were to get a truthful answer from a Thai girl they would probably all admit to having one of these 'baby ghosts' in the hope of him taking care of them.

Whilst I have never seen the ghost myself my wife is able to BUT I have on many occasions felt him walking across our bed. It scared the life out of me the first time then I just accept he is there and everything is fine.

There is so much to this whole subject that goes far beyond what conventional Western conditioned minds will allow......

[SergeiY]

Whilst I have never seen the ghost myself my wife is able to BUT I have on many occasions felt him walking across our bed. It scared the life out of me the first time then I just accept he is there and everything is fine.

There is so much to this whole subject that goes far beyond what conventional Western conditioned minds will allow......

lalala

[Para]

If anyone is interested you might like to know whilst L.P.Tim died many years ago he did have a student, L.P. Sarkon, Wat Nong Krub, Rayong who is still alive (at the age of 71 I think). He was the ONLY student of L.P. Tim and still makes Khun Paen's in L.P. Tim's style NOT in his method.

L.P. Sarkon's Amulets are at the moment VERY popular amongst Thai's and actually incredibly affordable they are certainly a good investment IMO because of their connection to L.P. Tim.....

[elcent]

I know of a business guy who collected fetuses and sold it for 25,000.00 per fetus USD to stem cell researches.

[MAJIC]

Another look at Thai Culture, cant read anymore, its making me feel sick.

[crazydrummerpauly]

superstition can be ugly and debilitating.

Absolutely...

Superstitiion is a massive, malignant denial of and obstruction of all that is admirable in scientific modernity,

and along with endemic corruption it is at the heart of this society's failure to evolve into a mature democracy

based at least in principle on rational, open-minded and fearless debate. Deep-seated belief in strategies

designed to control future outcomes ( fate tamed into 'good luck') always diminishes peoples' confidence in

their own potential to change everyday life via political processes and/or personal growth and achievements.

Genuine superstition ( as opposed to ironic horroscope-type 'fun' ) should be left behind way back in the childhood

of humanity - "ugly and debilitating" - a superb summary.

( I say: 'at least in principle'... to head off the likely reminders of how often 'mature democracies' fail to fulfill their

own ideals - doesn't mean the ideals aren't worth holding up as desirable targets. Thankfully they are actually

alive and well and often reached largely due to the pressures exerted by free media.)

Superstition at a serious level is way too close to persecution of 'bad spirits' and the people they inhabit for my

palate - anyone else remember the film "Witchfinder General " ? Shudder.

I truly wish that this story is 'only' about criminal or procedural wrongdoings, bad as they may be - the hypothethised

'amulet' connection make me feel very ill.

[dekbahnnok]

Why would a Buddhist Temple have 300+ fetuses there?

There wont be a lot of Farrang that know the story of Khun Paen and understand EXACTLY how Gumantong came about.

Maybe just as well as it could make a very macabre crime a hel_l of a lot worse......

Witches use them to make poison. They bury them in clay pots and let them ferment. You are right about farungs not knowing, but many have friends and lovers who worship "Goomun" and have altars in their homes.

[Matt335]

Like a serial killer story. Very gruesome.

[suranya63]

rip

Edited November 16, 2010 by suranya63

[mkawish]

So actually this is a very decent person. Instead of destroying them he is putting them in a temple. Maybe the police have nothing better to do, maybe he did not pay off our upstanding men in brown, but the problem is not this man but the abortion clinics. Actually Abortion should be legal anyhow, Wondering when they arrest someone for killing 86 people in a Bangkok neighborhood.... talking about double standards/

I totally agree with you mythBuster!!

You two are familiar with the practice of Guman Thong amulets ?? And the process of creation..

Perhaps, if you could spell out the Thai word but Anglo sound as GOO-MARN THONG (กุมารทอง), more readers would catch what you meant.

The Thai word means Golden Baby in English.

The process to make a GOO-Marn Thong is illegal and its charm and applicability have yet to be established to date.

However the distance villagers love it and swear by it. The deeper they live in the woods, the more ardent they are about the power of their Goo-Marn Thong.

There are also a few farangs who love it and hang them around their neck. But I won't know if they are the producers or consumers of such voodoo amulets which includes Kun-Charng (ขุนช้าง) and Kun-Pann (ขุนแผน) which are less gruesom in their creation.

Edited November 16, 2010 by mkawish

[webfact]

UPDATE

348 foetuses discovered at wat

By Noppadol Srithaweekard

The Nation

Police probing clinics to see which carried out illegal abortions

Two temple undertakers were being questioned by police yesterday over the dumping of 348 baby bodies at a wat in Bangkok’s Bang Kho Laem district.

Horrified police discovered the babies in the cemetery morgue at Wat Phai Ngern. An undertaker there has allegedly admitted taking money from five clinics to dispose of them.

Police were attracted to one of the morgue’s 20 slots which was leaking blood. Inside were several plastic bags containing many infant corpses. They found more baby bodies in a nearby shallow hole.

Undertaker Suthep Chabangbon, 46, initially told police he smelled something foul in the back of the temple. He followed it until he found the seventeenth slot’s door ajar and opened one of the plastic bags and saw they were baby bodies. He had said he didn’t know how the bodies got there, so he reported to the abbot and alerted police.

Temple secretary Phra Thiwa Thammachayo told police that normally the morgue was run by the undertakers and had nothing to do with the monks who only came to perform prayers for the dead at relatives’ requests.

The monk said every April the temple hosted a cemetery-cleansing ritual for unclaimed bodies at the morgue, and he suspected someone had dumped the infant bodies there since late April. The 17th slot had contained the coffin of a dead child for five years now.

Pol Lt-Colonel Chusak Khamsai, investigating the case, said Suthep later told police he and the other undertaker Sujin Phumi, 56, dug a shallow grave near the morgue on the abbot’s orders after the discovery.

Bang Kho Laem District director Bundit Sithanamsuwan, who inspected the scene, said he had initial information but no details. He affirmed that his jurisdiction didn’t have any illegal abortion clinics and that the bodies were from other areas.

Deputy city police chief Pol Maj-General Sumet Reungsawat said police interrogated the two undertakers, Suthep and Sujin, who maintained their innocence. However, an informed source reported that Suthep had confessed he took money from five clinics to dump the bodies at the temple.

Police said 15 clinics provided birth-control consultancies on Chan and Sathupradit roads and they would extend the investigation to discover who may have performed illegal abortions.

The baby bodies were submitted for autopsy.

-- The Nation 2010-11-17

[DP25]

I know of a business guy who collected fetuses and sold it for 25,000.00 per fetus USD to stem cell researches.

You really believe "stem cell researchers" pay US$25,000 for a fetus? You'd have people in America lining up for abortions at that price if it were true.

[Mitker]

Bang Kho Laem District director ... affirmed that his jurisdiction didn't have any illegal abortion clinics...

..registered?

[DP25]

Abortion is illegal in Thailand except when it is judged that delivery would harm the mother or when the pregnancy is the result of rape.

That's not true. Morning sickness or headaches is considered enough "harm" to get one

[orosee]

I know of a business guy who collected fetuses and sold it for 25,000.00 per fetus USD to stem cell researches.

I think you know of a guy who like to talk rubbish after a couple of drinks (as we all do, either way). If anything, this guy would have had to collect embryos, not fetuses.

[brahmburgers]

Once while sitting down to supper with a Thai family, the conversation turned to ghosts. The 12 year old girl was particularly animated, and spoke about this and that type of ghost with a grin and a sparkle in her eyes, as if to convey, 'isn't it amazing and cute, we have so many ghosts and we believe in them so thoroughly!'

I then asked the girl, 'can you describe some of the ghosts in detail?'

She smirked and looked at her parents. Her parents looked back at her and me, not smirking.

When I asked again (gently, matter of factly, but with no smile), the girl went silent and looked a bit embarrassed. Her parents remained silent and fidgety, as if wanting to change the subject.

The point here is, Thais think it's cute to perpetuate hocus pocus about ghosts. They feed the dross to their children in heaping tablespoonfuls, and therefore assume that everyone either believes it (if they're Thai or Asian or prone to superstitious beliefs) or else they expect others to think it's cute & quaint how an entire group of people can believe in such balony.

I don't believe in hocus pocus, and I don't think such beliefs are cute. This thread is a prime example of why.

[brahmburgers]

Perhaps if Thais didn't have such a cultural fixation against adopting, the abortion thing would be less of a problem.

Friends of mine from Laos returned here after visiting their home village - and told me I could get a one or two newborn children from there for Bt.1,000 each. I actually considered it, but am a single guy, so it wouldn't have been practical.

Who remembers Kip Keino? He was the first Kenyan to dazzle the world with long distance running prowess. With the proceeds of his fame, he returned to Kenya and commenced to adopt many children. He developed a farmstead, and only had one hired helper to tend to a bunch of kids (about 2 dozen). The elder kids attended to the younger, and so on.

Edited November 17, 2010 by brahmburgers

[reason1]

Many thanks RGS2001UK for the references and links. Even during the first chapters of reading “Stripping the Gurus” one quickly forms the opinion that all Mystics and Gurus are dangerous sexually deviant nut cases

[asiawatcher]

I would think as the normal situation of bodies being taken to a Temple for rites and cremation, foetus' or not, they were in the right place. Consensual abortion in Thailand is an every day occurrence so why this guy made a point to police (guilt maybe) is anyone's guess. Abortionist and Anti-abortionists will argue the point until black and blue. Death by someone else's hand is against the law, usually referred to as murder. The time factor of a full grown human being in the womb is 12 weeks and from that time on the baby just grows larger and larger. Abortion is sad and reasons for it often not thought through but I do not condone it.

[MikeyIdea]

It's no secret that abortions are very common, in the hundreds is just a joke. There are numerous abortions done every single day in Bankok. If you don't know where to go, just call a respectable hospital and ask and the nurse will say that they don't do it and then advice where to go...

Clinics and hospitals making before 3 month abortions are to numerous to mention, some do over 3 month abortions too, Klong Tan hospital is one of them