News That Reveals How Rotten Thai Society Has Become

[kuffki]

You see, part of the problem is that those who are posted here would otherwise not have come. I've never worked with any middle-aged sex tourists before; just regular engineers, programmers, designers etc, so it comes as a shock to all of us when faced with those rough, drunken, burnt out bar stool hobos who adorn the bars of Pattaya; those squalid, sordid bars. And each 'grand dad' seems to be escorting his grand daughter for the day. If only.

Now Westerners .......... how do you excuse yourself?

1. How does middle-aged sex tourists look like? and how do you identify one back in the West

2. How do you know who you worked with, for all you know you could of worked with pedophiles.

Its amazing, every time Pattaya comes up in conversation is always attracts this kind of posts. Yes it is here, just like it is in BKK, Phuket, Chiang Mai and everywhere else. In Pattaya it is slightly more visible because of the size, but then again stay away from Walking street or Soi Buakao and you will not see any of it.

If needs be can always take clients to Thai bars or clubs, there are no foreigners there, can always go to "rather expansive" places, again there will not be any foreigners there. But if you take your client to Walking street into some gogo bar and girls know you by your first name, no wonder business will be lost.

Why foreigners need excuses???? Some married here, some moved for business, some moved by mistake but developed a life here. No country is perfect.

PS. Next time you take out any clients, perhaps avoid commenting and pre-judging, because for all you know your client could be one of those middle aged sex tourists, or/and like the entertainment/company of a younger lady.

Edited November 22, 2010 by kuffki

[endure]

I am leaving Thailand tomorrow after 4 years. It has been damaging to my international reputation. Whenever I tell people I reside in Bangkok, people start giggling. I have lived in other Asian countries and nobody would associate my residency there as something sinister. It has been affecting my business. Goodbye.

Over the years of visiting Thailand for long summer vacations (usually 7 weeks at a time), and then living there for a little over a year, I OFTEN had the same reaction from friends who otherwise thought of me as being a rather serious and upright person. Thailand seems to have dual reputations. Yes, there is the nice reputation -- shining beaches, bucolic villages, Buddhist temples and monks...oops, strike that last one now. Then there's the other reputation. Thailand ought to stop and think why it has that second reputation.

Perhaps you ought to stop and think why your friends assume that 'second reputation' about a place that they haven't visited?

[TPI]

I agree with comments that describe Thailand as deeply flawed, third world and hypocritical. Also, it is embarrassing to confess to being based there.

I too have cut my time here, preferring to travel in Europe for up to 5 months each year. I find that being amongst a civilised culture, for example France, soothes my soul. Without the infusion of good taste, architecture, museums, art galleries, a worthy film genre and incisive quality newspapers, I would find it impossible to spend any time in Thailand.

Even now, having returned from my latest trip to Spain, I find Thailand to offer little more than the same confinement known to prisoners. I feel I am treading water waiting to escape. Consequently, I too am planning the final departure. It will be Thailand's loss as I spend considerably but even that seems to be resented, and I live upcountry.

Bangkok was where I worked. So too was Pattaya, which appalled me to such an extent that I suggested that our whole SE Asia operation be relocated from the Eastern Seeboard. This has been accepted and comes into effect from 2012. It means a loss of over 400 jobs to Thailand but when faced with entertaining clients in Pattaya, and losing accounts as a result, there is little choice left.

You see, part of the problem is that those who are posted here would otherwise not have come. I've never worked with any middle-aged sex tourists before; just regular engineers, programmers, designers etc, so it comes as a shock to all of us when faced with those rough, drunken, burnt out bar stool hobos who adorn the bars of Pattaya; those squalid, sordid bars. And each 'grand dad' seems to be escorting his grand daughter for the day. If only.

Sorry. But this scene is not acceptable at home. Neither is it acceptable here; to anyone in touch with the real world, a place in it and their real life. Not the one they have currently invented.

But this draws parrallels with the view that celebrity needs to be protected from its candy floss frothy self. If, in the face of an abortion story that is disgustingly shocking beyond the stored foetuses; beyond the corrupt officials; beyond the illegal acts of the medical profession; beyond the 8 month terminations; beyond the enslavement of the surviving babies.... if all the media can see is the need to keep celebrity involvement secret, then Thailand is without hope.

Sadly it has been for decades. It is only as a visitor that one can see this and have something far better to compare and contrast it with.

The one line posters and other totally irresponsible persons who fail to grasp any meaning or show any original insight or thought or solution are to be dismissed as the trash that they are. Trash. Drawn to Thailand because it offers exile for the failed, the amoral, the criminal, the malcontent.

Anyone who retires here must be questionable. It is simply not an acceptable place to stay.

In conclusion it is inevitable that Thailand is best left to itself. That is the greatest harm that we can do it. So be it. Ironically, that is the view of the xenophobic Thais because that is what they are told to think; to believe, by the Bangkok elite that wish to maintain their 98% staus quo. More un-original thought due to a lack of education and opportunity.

Now Westerners .......... how do you excuse yourself?

It seems that you have never traveled to or through central Thailand? If your only view of this country is based on your travels on the eastern seaboard or Bangkok you're bound to get the "wowsers" perception! Surely you aren't lumping Mat ta phut, Chomburi and Chatcheong sao into the mix? Your bitterness is obvious, as is your choice of language! If you think that all retirees are pedophiles and drunken low life why don't you go to somewhere where the retirees leave their shirts on for the entire year, drink only water and on the entire continent there is not one child! Like...... Antartica!

[jayjay0]

Maybe expat society should try to understand Thai society.

It is not a problem to them unless they can gain something by making it one.

a exert from the article

"Regardless of how the case of fetus massacres will be solved, society must think hard about why such an atrocity occurred in our country and get to the root of the problems, particularly the social problem that has never been fixed appropriately for decades. Otherwise, we will be going around in circles, as the debate on the revision of abortion laws is still far from reaching a conclusion and continues to hurt pitiful victims."

Pretty good English for a Thai. Notice no misspellings like you get from Thai posters. Not good at grammar my self but willing to bet it is perfect.

I wouldn't say perfect (not that I'm an expert) ... "never been fixed .. for decades" - is it never, or is it decades. It can't be both.

But, anyway, what's your point?

My point is that it is westerners who are making accusations about a society that is different than there's is and thy are unwilling or unable to understand so rather than accept it they try to put there own values on it.

From the posters with Thai spouses they all say the same thing it was not good but it was not a big deal either.

[jayjay0]

I agree with comments that describe Thailand as deeply flawed, third world and hypocritical. Also, it is embarrassing to confess to being based there.

I too have cut my time here, preferring to travel in Europe for up to 5 months each year. I find that being amongst a civilised culture, for example France, soothes my soul. Without the infusion of good taste, architecture, museums, art galleries, a worthy film genre and incisive quality newspapers, I would find it impossible to spend any time in Thailand.

Even now, having returned from my latest trip to Spain, I find Thailand to offer little more than the same confinement known to prisoners. I feel I am treading water waiting to escape. Consequently, I too am planning the final departure. It will be Thailand's loss as I spend considerably but even that seems to be resented, and I live upcountry.

Bangkok was where I worked. So too was Pattaya, which appalled me to such an extent that I suggested that our whole SE Asia operation be relocated from the Eastern Seeboard. This has been accepted and comes into effect from 2012. It means a loss of over 400 jobs to Thailand but when faced with entertaining clients in Pattaya, and losing accounts as a result, there is little choice left.

You see, part of the problem is that those who are posted here would otherwise not have come. I've never worked with any middle-aged sex tourists before; just regular engineers, programmers, designers etc, so it comes as a shock to all of us when faced with those rough, drunken, burnt out bar stool hobos who adorn the bars of Pattaya; those squalid, sordid bars. And each 'grand dad' seems to be escorting his grand daughter for the day. If only.

Sorry. But this scene is not acceptable at home. Neither is it acceptable here; to anyone in touch with the real world, a place in it and their real life. Not the one they have currently invented.

But this draws parrallels with the view that celebrity needs to be protected from its candy floss frothy self. If, in the face of an abortion story that is disgustingly shocking beyond the stored foetuses; beyond the corrupt officials; beyond the illegal acts of the medical profession; beyond the 8 month terminations; beyond the enslavement of the surviving babies.... if all the media can see is the need to keep celebrity involvement secret, then Thailand is without hope.

Sadly it has been for decades. It is only as a visitor that one can see this and have something far better to compare and contrast it with.

The one line posters and other totally irresponsible persons who fail to grasp any meaning or show any original insight or thought or solution are to be dismissed as the trash that they are. Trash. Drawn to Thailand because it offers exile for the failed, the amoral, the criminal, the malcontent.

Anyone who retires here must be questionable. It is simply not an acceptable place to stay.

In conclusion it is inevitable that Thailand is best left to itself. That is the greatest harm that we can do it. So be it. Ironically, that is the view of the xenophobic Thais because that is what they are told to think; to believe, by the Bangkok elite that wish to maintain their 98% staus quo. More un-original thought due to a lack of education and opportunity.

Now Westerners .......... how do you excuse yourself?

I don't excuse my self I thank my self. Thailand is a beautiful country with many different attractions in it. I have met many friendly people seen a type of art I would never have seen before. I have been excepted by many Thai's as well as expats. I have a freedom here to go and see things and places I would never consider back in North America. And yes If I choose to do it hang out with you in those seedy bars. I don't choose to hang with you or your seedy bars. I rally don't know the whole scene in Pattaya but I would bet my retirement checks that they also have nice bars there where you can sit in comfortable chairs and not watch your normal scenery. You just have to keep your trousers zipped up. By the way how long have you been coming to Thailand and that is all you can find.

You on the other hand with your nose up in the air choose to ignore all of them and concentrate on what you perceive to be wrong with it and in no way happening any other place in the world particularly the paradise you came from.

I choose the same here as I do back in Canada and the States to associate myself with people who are not living the lives you see the Thai's living. I defiantly choose not to associate with scum who think they are better than others.

That being said I will give you credit you back your beliefs up with action. That is more than can be said for a lot of your compatriots (Thai bashers)

BYE BYE

[TheyCallmeScooter]

This is not suprising at all. There is so much hypocrisy in Thailand.

Yeah. It's difficult to escape this issue. There is hypocrisy all over the world of course, but it's pretty understandable how Buddhist Zen quickly becomes Buddhist Denial.

I'm not really sure what people thought was happening to all the foetuses being aborted every day? Did people think it simply wasn't occurring? Thailand 'sex' industry is arguably the largest on the planet. The girls are tragically largely uneducated (let alone anything resembling SexEd). This is not a complex formula. I'm shocked, that people are shocked. I suppose they figure that Prohibiting everything = Solved. Prostitution is Prohibited. But then, hunger and poverty and extended family pressures overcome such 'laws'. Abortion is Prohibited. But then, pregnancies / motherhood out of wedlock isn't exactly encouraged by society / culture. I'm genuinely stunned that people would be so horrified at the fact that the numbers of illegal abortions being carried out is likely a 6-figure number annually.

I've seen a lot of outrage at the fact the underground industry was aborting as late as 8 months, but really? What do people expect when you Prohibit something? Are the 'criminals' supposed to regulate themselves? Draw lines in places the entire US pro-life/pro-choice debate cannot even come close to agreeing are 'acceptable'?

I noticed in one thread there was a debate about whether the illegal 'doctor' who adopted 11 that survived was a 'hero' or 'twisted' (for aborting so late). What about all the illegal 'doctors' who - don't - have 11 adopted children. Shiver.

I noticed the undertakers were asking for public forgiveness (whilst simultaneously blaming the 'doctors' for being 'at fault'). I wrote out a furious letter to the Editor (unpublished, of course).

The Blame Game. I have seen this game played before.

A government Prohibits something that is guaranteed to happen. Surprisingly only no one, it happens. Often. This then creates Demand by providing an opportunity for profit, but only by breaking the 'law'. Since the dawn of time, laws have never proved to be a strong disincentive to Supply when there is a Demand for a product or a service. The Demand is ALWAYS met by the Supply, and criminals are *manufactured* out of ordinary people.

As these 'criminals' breaking the 'law' usually hail from lower socio-economic groups (no doubt poor people are more 'evil' than rich people?), they are less likely to be educated and less likely to be able to 'know' where to draw the lines that even the US public (and associated medical 'experts' on both sides of the Pro-Choice / Pro-Life debate) cannot agree upon. In any case, once the uneducated 'criminals' are forced over that existential line by virtue of their actions being deemed 'criminal; magnets are placed in whatever moral compass which they may have initially had, and these are magnets which preclude any expectations that they will be able to set their own moral boundaries. Heroin dealers will make no distinction between 22 and 15 years, when desperate and panicked addicts demand their product. Those conducting illegal abortions will make no distinction between 5 and 8 months, when desperate and panicked girls demand their services.

Invariably, a scandal breaks and the community's armchair defenders of morality (such as it is defined by someone who has never felt the torturous pangs of hunger, or been placed - by circumstance, often no fault of their own - in a situation where they are breaking the 'law') all cry out in horror and shock. Shocked at the Obvious. Shocked at the 'discovery' that such horrors were occurring endlessly, right under their nose. As everyone who isn't blinded by denial was already well aware.

Fingers are pointed. People are angry. They want answers. They want someone to blame. It's only natural. But why? Why is it natural to want to blame someone?

I think it's because, deep down - perhaps only in our subconscious - we all know who is to blame. It's not the terrified poor girls trying to come to terms with raising a child in a bleak world where they are forced to sell their bodies to survive; a world which has never protected them, a world in which they cannot even protect themselves. It's not the 'criminals' flooding to Supply the Demand created by the legislation which Prohibits events that are inevitable. But if not them, who can we blame? We need someone to blame!

We could blame every government which outlaws an industry that will exist regardless of pieces of paper Prohibiting it's existence. We could blame every government which knowingly hands over control of that industry to the uneducated, unqualified, poverty-stricken 'criminals'. We could blame every government for the poverty that forces a child into a miserable life of 'crime'. We could blame every government for their lack of education, for not providing them with the tools they need to - legally - survive. We could even blame the media for wasting column space on trivial issues whilst ignoring the real issues until an inevitable scandal breaks.

We could, and we should.

And yet, we don't.

Days, weeks, months pass. Laws are not repealed. A child would understand the 'scandal' continues on; albeit out of sight, out of mind. Until, of course, the next inevitable scandal. And we are all outraged again. Pointing fingers everywhere except the right place. My mother used to say "When you point your finger, there are three fingers pointing back at you."

Unless the laws are changed to Regulate instead of Prohibit, no matter how many times we point the finger, no matter in what direction, there will be three fingers pointing back at any society which allows their government to pass laws Prohibiting the results of their own failures in Education and Welfare. The public doesn't need to forgive the undertakers. The public needs to force the media to force the government to Act.

And then the public needs to forgive themselves.

[MaiChai]

When I first came to Thailand 15 years ago, Thais were smiling, happy go-lucky people, who were always eager to help and welcome you and share what they had with you. Thais seemed special and magical people. I don't really want to say how I find alot of Thais now; it would not be polite to say what I experience. I think you probably know alot of them are no longer like what I describe in my first sentence.

[kuffki]

Maybe expat society should try to understand Thai society.

It is not a problem to them unless they can gain something by making it one.

a exert from the article

"Regardless of how the case of fetus massacres will be solved, society must think hard about why such an atrocity occurred in our country and get to the root of the problems, particularly the social problem that has never been fixed appropriately for decades. Otherwise, we will be going around in circles, as the debate on the revision of abortion laws is still far from reaching a conclusion and continues to hurt pitiful victims."

Pretty good English for a Thai. Notice no misspellings like you get from Thai posters. Not good at grammar my self but willing to bet it is perfect.

I wouldn't say perfect (not that I'm an expert) ... "never been fixed .. for decades" - is it never, or is it decades. It can't be both.

But, anyway, what's your point?

My point is that it is westerners who are making accusations about a society that is different than there's is and thy are unwilling or unable to understand so rather than accept it they try to put there own values on it.

From the posters with Thai spouses they all say the same thing it was not good but it was not a big deal either.

oh and here we go again with your non stop nonsense of Thailand just being the ultimate destination in the world.

I am sure in your 4 years here, you have learned all the culture and mastered the language fluently so now you able to understand everything.

Man, i am so bored reading your exact same post every single time something bad comes out about Thailand.

May be you should see a plastic surgeon to make yourself look Thai also, so you do not need to associate yourself with foreigners.

Time to wake up and start living in a real world, not some fantasy

[Junglejingle]

Society in general has become rotten...good and bad in all countries...not just Thailand

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Society in general has become rotten...good and bad in all countries...not just Thailand

become?

Was there a period of time there when it was not rotten?

Society in general is improving. Very, very slowly - way too slowly. Some countries so slowly, there is almost no progress at all.

[Scott]

Just a word of caution. Please keep your remarks to the content of the post and not toward the poster personally. When remarks get personal, then posters get warnings. If you don't like what someone has to say, you can ignore them.

Now, carry on. A lot of interesting comments.

[mesohappy]

I agree with comments that describe Thailand as deeply flawed, third world and hypocritical. Also, it is embarrassing to confess to being based there.

I too have cut my time here, preferring to travel in Europe for up to 5 months each year. I find that being amongst a civilised culture, for example France, soothes my soul. Without the infusion of good taste, architecture, museums, art galleries, a worthy film genre and incisive quality newspapers, I would find it impossible to spend any time in Thailand.

Even now, having returned from my latest trip to Spain, I find Thailand to offer little more than the same confinement known to prisoners. I feel I am treading water waiting to escape. Consequently, I too am planning the final departure. It will be Thailand's loss as I spend considerably but even that seems to be resented, and I live upcountry.

Bangkok was where I worked. So too was Pattaya, which appalled me to such an extent that I suggested that our whole SE Asia operation be relocated from the Eastern Seeboard. This has been accepted and comes into effect from 2012. It means a loss of over 400 jobs to Thailand but when faced with entertaining clients in Pattaya, and losing accounts as a result, there is little choice left.

You see, part of the problem is that those who are posted here would otherwise not have come. I've never worked with any middle-aged sex tourists before; just regular engineers, programmers, designers etc, so it comes as a shock to all of us when faced with those rough, drunken, burnt out bar stool hobos who adorn the bars of Pattaya; those squalid, sordid bars. And each 'grand dad' seems to be escorting his grand daughter for the day. If only.

Sorry. But this scene is not acceptable at home. Neither is it acceptable here; to anyone in touch with the real world, a place in it and their real life. Not the one they have currently invented.

But this draws parrallels with the view that celebrity needs to be protected from its candy floss frothy self. If, in the face of an abortion story that is disgustingly shocking beyond the stored foetuses; beyond the corrupt officials; beyond the illegal acts of the medical profession; beyond the 8 month terminations; beyond the enslavement of the surviving babies.... if all the media can see is the need to keep celebrity involvement secret, then Thailand is without hope.

Sadly it has been for decades. It is only as a visitor that one can see this and have something far better to compare and contrast it with.

The one line posters and other totally irresponsible persons who fail to grasp any meaning or show any original insight or thought or solution are to be dismissed as the trash that they are. Trash. Drawn to Thailand because it offers exile for the failed, the amoral, the criminal, the malcontent.

Anyone who retires here must be questionable. It is simply not an acceptable place to stay.

In conclusion it is inevitable that Thailand is best left to itself. That is the greatest harm that we can do it. So be it. Ironically, that is the view of the xenophobic Thais because that is what they are told to think; to believe, by the Bangkok elite that wish to maintain their 98% staus quo. More un-original thought due to a lack of education and opportunity.

Now Westerners .......... how do you excuse yourself?

Sounds like you've only seen tourist areas. Even in Pattaya there are real, normal people. True Thais. Get over yourself.

[reason1]

Right on Tropicalevo!

Of course in the West there are no illegal unwanted pregnancies aborted and any disposal is done with due ceremony? They wouldn't just flush em? Please get real or shut up n go home

[mesohappy]

Now Westerners .......... how do you excuse yourself?

Personally I excuse myself with the following,

lack of western PC BS and crap such as affirmitive action,

personal freedom, no big brother knows better nanny state a la Euro socialism,

I find the (lack of) income tax most favourable.

Cant talk for others but the above does it for me.

Agreed. Freedom from, or freedom to. Take your pick. If you are afraid of the freedom of others there is a warm, cozy place for you in the U.S.

[mesohappy]

When I first came to Thailand 15 years ago, Thais were smiling, happy go-lucky people, who were always eager to help and welcome you and share what they had with you. Thais seemed special and magical people. I don't really want to say how I find alot of Thais now; it would not be polite to say what I experience. I think you probably know alot of them are no longer like what I describe in my first sentence.

So it took you 15 years to go through the stages of culture shock?

People are people. Everywhere you go.

[hammered]

The main problem that faces Thailand is that it has a bunch of laws based on a myth or an ideal of what Thai society is which doesnt come anywhere near reality. The country needs to come out of denial and accept what society is actually like and not what some would like it to be like.

There is lots of casual sex going on. Lots of it is unprotected. There is minimal sex education for the masses. Free contraception is not readily available. The polticians themselves are woeful role models as are all the celebrities and the hypocricy of their statements on drugs, alcohol, corruption and sex is widely known. However of course those groups are wealthy and relatively protected and can get what they want including legal abortions in 5 star comfort.

While finding thousands of foetuses is distasteful it is also a reflection of how ethical, moral and legal standards have failed to keep up with societal changes, which is both tragic and unneccessary. In this case rather than blaming all those who got pregnant or finding a few minor fall guys in the temple while actually believing the abbot and monks would know nothing, or by finding some half insane wisewoman type abortionist rather than all the highly trained doctors who normally carry such practices out, it would be better for those who frame laws and/or those with influence who constantly go on about archaic and out of touch morals and ethics to take a long look at themselves and think about how their standards have contributed to this whole mess.

[Thaddeus]

While finding thousands of foetuses is distasteful it is also a reflection of how ethical, moral and legal standards have failed to keep up with societal changes, which is both tragic and unneccessary. In this case rather than blaming all those who got pregnant or finding a few minor fall guys in the temple while actually believing the abbot and monks would know nothing, or by finding some half insane wisewoman type abortionist rather than all the highly trained doctors who normally carry such practices out, it would be better for those who frame laws and/or those with influence who constantly go on about archaic and out of touch morals and ethics to take a long look at themselves and think about how their standards have contributed to this whole mess.

Well said.

One of my ex-pat mates here is married to a Thai teacher. At a recent school meeting she raised the subject of sex education and it's need to be implemented in the school. She was shouted down by the 'older and wiser' ones as it was completely unnecessary as Thais do not partake in sex outside of marriage, and she only had that thought because she was married to a farang.

How much more 'in your face' does it need to get before the 'older and wiser' ones admit, or at least realise in some cases, that almost everything they purport to be the truth is actually a total pile of hogwash and attempt to do something to fix the problem, instead of pretending that it either didn't happen or was caused by influences outside of Thailand.

[Thai at Heart]

The main problem that faces Thailand is that it has a bunch of laws based on a myth or an ideal of what Thai society is which doesnt come anywhere near reality. The country needs to come out of denial and accept what society is actually like and not what some would like it to be like.

There is lots of casual sex going on. Lots of it is unprotected. There is minimal sex education for the masses. Free contraception is not readily available. The polticians themselves are woeful role models as are all the celebrities and the hypocricy of their statements on drugs, alcohol, corruption and sex is widely known. However of course those groups are wealthy and relatively protected and can get what they want including legal abortions in 5 star comfort.

While finding thousands of foetuses is distasteful it is also a reflection of how ethical, moral and legal standards have failed to keep up with societal changes, which is both tragic and unneccessary. In this case rather than blaming all those who got pregnant or finding a few minor fall guys in the temple while actually believing the abbot and monks would know nothing, or by finding some half insane wisewoman type abortionist rather than all the highly trained doctors who normally carry such practices out, it would be better for those who frame laws and/or those with influence who constantly go on about archaic and out of touch morals and ethics to take a long look at themselves and think about how their standards have contributed to this whole mess.

Couldn't agree more.

The way that Thai society has its head in the clouds about sex is one of the mysteries of this country.

I will never forget the Culture ministry getting its knickers in a twist a few years ago about girls wearing spaghetti tops during Songkran as though this represented some kind of moral outrage. The unwillingness of the country to really grasp problems is astonishing.

[evanson]

I am leaving Thailand tomorrow after 4 years. It has been damaging to my international reputation. Whenever I tell people I reside in Bangkok, people start giggling. I have lived in other Asian countries and nobody would associate my residency there as something sinister. It has been affecting my business. Goodbye.

Why do you let the ignorance and false perceptions of others affect you so much? Now, if you lived in Pattaya...........................

i hope you are aware that Pattaya is little more then just the Walking Street

Why do so many people in Thailand believe that people in the rest of the world even know where Thailand is.

Thailand is not exactly the news breaker of anything useful. Now and then it makes world news with some internal problems and thats about all.

if people judge a person by the country where they reside, those are totally illiterate, ignorant people and should be the least of a concern.

Whats worse is someone making changes in their life to please those baboons :jap:

Thai society is rotten to the core not only with its attitude towards many things, but also its morals or lack there of.I do not really see point to even write an article of this kind, because it really does not say anything new, just confirms out loud what everyone already knew.

So now its been said out loud, and everyone knows and whats next??...... NOTHING, Everyone will carry on as they did before, because at the end of the day each to their own, and could not care less about the rest

I believe most people know what Thailand is infamous for if not where it is. What other country in the world would you be handed an unasked for box of condoms after visiting your local GP for your vaccinations?

As to the OP, every visiting friend I've had has been given the nudge nudge wink wink. Those who deny it's reputation are blind/in denial.

And yes, they should legalise abortion.

Edited November 23, 2010 by evanson

[robsamui]

I agree with comments that describe Thailand as deeply flawed, third world and hypocritical. Also, it is embarrassing to confess to being based there.

I too have cut my time here, preferring to travel in Europe for up to 5 months each year. I find that being amongst a civilised culture, for example France, soothes my soul. Without the infusion of good taste, architecture, museums, art galleries, a worthy film genre and incisive quality newspapers, I would find it impossible to spend any time in Thailand.

Even now, having returned from my latest trip to Spain, I find Thailand to offer little more than the same confinement known to prisoners. I feel I am treading water waiting to escape. Consequently, I too am planning the final departure. It will be Thailand's loss as I spend considerably but even that seems to be resented, and I live upcountry.

Bangkok was where I worked. So too was Pattaya, which appalled me to such an extent that I suggested that our whole SE Asia operation be relocated from the Eastern Seeboard. This has been accepted and comes into effect from 2012. It means a loss of over 400 jobs to Thailand but when faced with entertaining clients in Pattaya, and losing accounts as a result, there is little choice left.

You see, part of the problem is that those who are posted here would otherwise not have come. I've never worked with any middle-aged sex tourists before; just regular engineers, programmers, designers etc, so it comes as a shock to all of us when faced with those rough, drunken, burnt out bar stool hobos who adorn the bars of Pattaya; those squalid, sordid bars. And each 'grand dad' seems to be escorting his grand daughter for the day. If only.

Sorry. But this scene is not acceptable at home. Neither is it acceptable here; to anyone in touch with the real world, a place in it and their real life. Not the one they have currently invented.

But this draws parrallels with the view that celebrity needs to be protected from its candy floss frothy self. If, in the face of an abortion story that is disgustingly shocking beyond the stored foetuses; beyond the corrupt officials; beyond the illegal acts of the medical profession; beyond the 8 month terminations; beyond the enslavement of the surviving babies.... if all the media can see is the need to keep celebrity involvement secret, then Thailand is without hope.

Sadly it has been for decades. It is only as a visitor that one can see this and have something far better to compare and contrast it with.

The one line posters and other totally irresponsible persons who fail to grasp any meaning or show any original insight or thought or solution are to be dismissed as the trash that they are. Trash. Drawn to Thailand because it offers exile for the failed, the amoral, the criminal, the malcontent.

Anyone who retires here must be questionable. It is simply not an acceptable place to stay.

In conclusion it is inevitable that Thailand is best left to itself. That is the greatest harm that we can do it. So be it. Ironically, that is the view of the xenophobic Thais because that is what they are told to think; to believe, by the Bangkok elite that wish to maintain their 98% staus quo. More un-original thought due to a lack of education and opportunity.

Now Westerners .......... how do you excuse yourself?

BRAVO! In a nutshell. Covers everything. Well said!

R

[cup-O-coffee]

This story is stupid and so are the words used in it. Here's proof:

It is a woman's legal right to make this decision, right? Not that I agree with this, but this is the way I understand it.

This is not about the father's decision; not the government's decision, not a doctor's decision; not a counselor's decision, and not the decision of anyone else to influence her decision. That is the one lone condition that makes up the legal rules that allow the legal interruption and termination of a fetus's development inside of a woman's body; her choice!

She gets the legal right to decide up to and after the 3rd trimester to have the tissue (classified as a "non-viable fetus") removed from her, right?

She gets to decide if she does not want the non-viable fetus that is growing inside of her. There is no law that questions her motives or intentions. It can be whatever moves her to make this decision. Her reasons are protected by law, and she does not have to give them, nor can she be refused to have this procedure done.

If she wants to continue to carry this fetus inside of her, it gets stamped in the books as "viable". The gauntlet is removed and it is now acceptable to begin classifying the viable fetus as a baby. This decision grants her the rights and privileges as a mother-to-be.

If she does not want to carry the fetus to full term, it gets stamped "non-viable". It can no longer legally be classified as a baby from the time she decides she does not want it. Up until the time it is removed from her, and however the remains are disposed of, this non-viable fetus has singularly lost its classification and legal rights to fully develop as a human being based solely upon the superseding, legal rights of its host carrier's decision.

Next... since her right to decide has classified this fetus as being non-viable, it is up to her to see a licensed practitioner and get the non-viable fetus removed from her body, and see to the general conditions of her health.

Once that is accomplished, the remains of the non-viable fetus are disposed of under the methods required by Thai law.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The only laws being broken here are:

A] Operations to remove non-viable fetuses (classified as non-human) have been performed by non-licensed individuals.

B] The remains of the removed, non-viable fetuses have been disposed of in ways that violate the laws for disposal of human tissue, and how this could create hazardous conditions for the general public's health.

There is a fine line between a legal abortion and an illegal abortion when it all comes down to whether or not one has papers, or not, or is qualified, or not, or the remains were disposed of in a proper fashion, or not.

This has nothing to do with a woman's legal right, as Thai law indicates.

This entire affair is blown out of proportion by people who are against a woman's right to choose. This story is thick with anti-abortion propaganda and wording, religious sentiment, and guilt-ridden consciences.

One can not make a rational and objective opinion with this sort of reporting, and the maudlin, sentimental wordings of people who do not respect a woman's legal right to set all of this in motion.

Leave the women out of it, and either throw the doctors in jail or get them licensed if they did a good job. Don't blame the women - blame the process. Don't feel sorry for the fetuses, because that disrespects the legal decisions that the women had a legal right to make.

And the remains? Well, are they certain that they separated the legally aborted remains (being processed) from the illegally aborted remains (being massacred)? After all, the proverbial warehouses throughout Thailand that contain barrels full of legally aborted remains are not mentioned in this story, are they?

Why is that?

I have a lot more thoughts on this issue, but simply wanted to illustrate the stupidity of "when humans play God".

[chainarong]

A few of us in the form keep on harping about it , it's a pity the Gov can't read english, education standards in thailand are sub standard and untill the population is better educated ,you are going to get this and hundreds of other problems, that everyone knows about, all the time , mind U most of Asia has the same complaint , it's not only reserved for Thai.

[TAWP]

This story is stupid and so are the words used in it. Here's proof:

It is a woman's legal right to make this decision, right? Not that I agree with this, but this is the way I understand it.

This is not about the father's decision; not the government's decision, not a doctor's decision; not a counselor's decision, and not the decision of anyone else to influence her decision. That is the one lone condition that makes up the legal rules that allow the legal interruption and termination of a fetus's development inside of a woman's body; her choice!

She gets the legal right to decide up to and after the 3rd trimester to have the tissue (classified as a "non-viable fetus") removed from her, right?

She gets to decide if she does not want the non-viable fetus that is growing inside of her. There is no law that questions her motives or intentions. It can be whatever moves her to make this decision. Her reasons are protected by law, and she does not have to give them, nor can she be refused to have this procedure done.

If she wants to continue to carry this fetus inside of her, it gets stamped in the books as "viable". The gauntlet is removed and it is now acceptable to begin classifying the viable fetus as a baby. This decision grants her the rights and privileges as a mother-to-be.

If she does not want to carry the fetus to full term, it gets stamped "non-viable". It can no longer legally be classified as a baby from the time she decides she does not want it. Up until the time it is removed from her, and however the remains are disposed of, this non-viable fetus has singularly lost its classification and legal rights to fully develop as a human being based solely upon the superseding, legal rights of its host carrier's decision.

Next... since her right to decide has classified this fetus as being non-viable, it is up to her to see a licensed practitioner and get the non-viable fetus removed from her body, and see to the general conditions of her health.

Once that is accomplished, the remains of the non-viable fetus are disposed of under the methods required by Thai law.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The only laws being broken here are:

A] Operations to remove non-viable fetuses (classified as non-human) have been performed by non-licensed individuals.

B] The remains of the removed, non-viable fetuses have been disposed of in ways that violate the laws for disposal of human tissue, and how this could create hazardous conditions for the general public's health.

There is a fine line between a legal abortion and an illegal abortion when it all comes down to whether or not one has papers, or not, or is qualified, or not, or the remains were disposed of in a proper fashion, or not.

This has nothing to do with a woman's legal right, as Thai law indicates.

This entire affair is blown out of proportion by people who are against a woman's right to choose. This story is thick with anti-abortion propaganda and wording, religious sentiment, and guilt-ridden consciences.

One can not make a rational and objective opinion with this sort of reporting, and the maudlin, sentimental wordings of people who do not respect a woman's legal right to set all of this in motion.

Leave the women out of it, and either throw the doctors in jail or get them licensed if they did a good job. Don't blame the women - blame the process. Don't feel sorry for the fetuses, because that disrespects the legal decisions that the women had a legal right to make.

And the remains? Well, are they certain that they separated the legally aborted remains (being processed) from the illegally aborted remains (being massacred)? After all, the proverbial warehouses throughout Thailand that contain barrels full of legally aborted remains are not mentioned in this story, are they?

Why is that?

I have a lot more thoughts on this issue, but simply wanted to illustrate the stupidity of "when humans play God".

Nice speech, but you are wrong. There exists no legal right to make arbitrary abortions in Thailand.

[hammered]

While finding thousands of foetuses is distasteful it is also a reflection of how ethical, moral and legal standards have failed to keep up with societal changes, which is both tragic and unneccessary. In this case rather than blaming all those who got pregnant or finding a few minor fall guys in the temple while actually believing the abbot and monks would know nothing, or by finding some half insane wisewoman type abortionist rather than all the highly trained doctors who normally carry such practices out, it would be better for those who frame laws and/or those with influence who constantly go on about archaic and out of touch morals and ethics to take a long look at themselves and think about how their standards have contributed to this whole mess.

Well said.

One of my ex-pat mates here is married to a Thai teacher. At a recent school meeting she raised the subject of sex education and it's need to be implemented in the school. She was shouted down by the 'older and wiser' ones as it was completely unnecessary as Thais do not partake in sex outside of marriage, and she only had that thought because she was married to a farang.

How much more 'in your face' does it need to get before the 'older and wiser' ones admit, or at least realise in some cases, that almost everything they purport to be the truth is actually a total pile of hogwash and attempt to do something to fix the problem, instead of pretending that it either didn't happen or was caused by influences outside of Thailand.

Sad reality. And not so long ago some MP had the audacity to suggest that pregnant school and university kids should be allowed to study while preganant and then complete the studies after having the baby. Thie idea was viewed symapthetically by many people. Strangely not by senior teachers, school directors and uiniversity rectors though who either thought they shouldnt be allowed to study or at best they should be forced to study in private as they were such evil role models for other students.

[cup-O-coffee]

This story is stupid and so are the words used in it. Here's proof:

It is a woman's legal right to make this decision, right? Not that I agree with this, but this is the way I understand it.

This is not about the father's decision; not the government's decision, not a doctor's decision; not a counselor's decision, and not the decision of anyone else to influence her decision. That is the one lone condition that makes up the legal rules that allow the legal interruption and termination of a fetus's development inside of a woman's body; her choice!

She gets the legal right to decide up to and after the 3rd trimester to have the tissue (classified as a "non-viable fetus") removed from her, right?

She gets to decide if she does not want the non-viable fetus that is growing inside of her. There is no law that questions her motives or intentions. It can be whatever moves her to make this decision. Her reasons are protected by law, and she does not have to give them, nor can she be refused to have this procedure done.

If she wants to continue to carry this fetus inside of her, it gets stamped in the books as "viable". The gauntlet is removed and it is now acceptable to begin classifying the viable fetus as a baby. This decision grants her the rights and privileges as a mother-to-be.

If she does not want to carry the fetus to full term, it gets stamped "non-viable". It can no longer legally be classified as a baby from the time she decides she does not want it. Up until the time it is removed from her, and however the remains are disposed of, this non-viable fetus has singularly lost its classification and legal rights to fully develop as a human being based solely upon the superseding, legal rights of its host carrier's decision.

Next... since her right to decide has classified this fetus as being non-viable, it is up to her to see a licensed practitioner and get the non-viable fetus removed from her body, and see to the general conditions of her health.

Once that is accomplished, the remains of the non-viable fetus are disposed of under the methods required by Thai law.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The only laws being broken here are:

A] Operations to remove non-viable fetuses (classified as non-human) have been performed by non-licensed individuals.

B] The remains of the removed, non-viable fetuses have been disposed of in ways that violate the laws for disposal of human tissue, and how this could create hazardous conditions for the general public's health.

There is a fine line between a legal abortion and an illegal abortion when it all comes down to whether or not one has papers, or not, or is qualified, or not, or the remains were disposed of in a proper fashion, or not.

This has nothing to do with a woman's legal right, as Thai law indicates.

This entire affair is blown out of proportion by people who are against a woman's right to choose. This story is thick with anti-abortion propaganda and wording, religious sentiment, and guilt-ridden consciences.

One can not make a rational and objective opinion with this sort of reporting, and the maudlin, sentimental wordings of people who do not respect a woman's legal right to set all of this in motion.

Leave the women out of it, and either throw the doctors in jail or get them licensed if they did a good job. Don't blame the women - blame the process. Don't feel sorry for the fetuses, because that disrespects the legal decisions that the women had a legal right to make.

And the remains? Well, are they certain that they separated the legally aborted remains (being processed) from the illegally aborted remains (being massacred)? After all, the proverbial warehouses throughout Thailand that contain barrels full of legally aborted remains are not mentioned in this story, are they?

Why is that?

I have a lot more thoughts on this issue, but simply wanted to illustrate the stupidity of "when humans play God".

Nice speech, but you are wrong. There exists no legal right to make arbitrary abortions in Thailand.

You are correct! Technically, by the letter of the the law, you are correct.

The funny thing about this is that arbitrary enforcement of arbitrary behavior leaves the letter of the law in the dust.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. The law is the law, and you are spot on. So, I must change my view on this. By changing my view and seeing that the law has indeed been violated, then that creates two parallel problems. These two problems exist because on the one hand you have an outdated law, and on the other you have an opposing public opinion. The law is clear in its ambiguity, and public opinion is clear in its opposing behavior. Numerous abortions are performed throughout Thailand with the assistance of hospitals and clinics and midwives and quacks.

Sure, when they are caught red-handed, Thais give good reason for why they would win every Oscar at the awards dinner. They are good actors when it comes to saving their skin. Even if it means sacrificing the life of their own children. The point (and the accusations) being: Thais break the law every day because to make the law catch up to the times would create too much loss of face for the ones needed to do it. SO, it is better to simply break the law arbitrarily, and for the police to enforce the law arbitrarily; and put off doing what is best for the country for another day and leave it for another unlucky bastard who gets to change it and lose face.

This is an interesting article that got me pointed in this line of thought: Law and Society

The damning thing is that (as the article above suggests) "'Public opinion is always in advance of law.' As attitudes and values change, sooner or later laws will change: 'The law may sleep, but it cannot die' (dormiant aliquando leges nunquam moriuntur)."

I believe this saying holds a lot of truth. The difficult thing about it is that when you apply its truth to Thai society, you compound the problem, because Thai people can not discuss the problem openly and directly. They dance around it and "describe the water instead of the person who is drowning". So, until Thais can openly and frankly discuss problem solving (changing the laws to reflect modern public opinion) without being more concerned about making love to themselves in the mirror and losing face, the laws will continue to descend into obsolescence; and arbitrary crime will increase and be arbitrarily enforced by police (just enough to justify keeping their job) who have one foot on the pier, and one on the gunwale: to uphold the law (sinking into obsolescence) or to protect the people (whose public opinion is leaving the laws in the dust).

[almavro]

More importantly, they must exercise great caution while carrying out an investigation because a number of innocent people, including important figures like celebrities, could be dragged into the mess.

Well we can't have that can we, we can't have celebrities and important figures brought to task for their actions.

Let's start with everyday people being brought to task: Wed, 24 Nov (yesterday!), 1740, in front of Patpong Foodland, a police officer assaulted his wife in front of dozens of foreign and Thai witnesses. Slapped her repeatedly; pulled his weapon on her, held it to her head. Her two children sat nearby. I rang 191 and gave the details -- not going to try to physically interfere with someone who's brandishing a pistol. Helmet #639; motorcycle license 50839. It would be nice to know that Foodland's video picked up the action. Frankly, I was too intent upon calling 191 (who took nearly five minutes to answer, thank you) to think of snapping a shot with my phone.

Street gossip had it that the cop was shacking with a Foodland cashier, and that the wife went to confront her, kids in tow. Enter enraged hero cop.

What are the odds that this guy will be in any way disciplined? Right after this afternoon's snowstorm, right?