How About Sin Sod Demands After Marriage

[toothfairy]

Thank you all for your help, at least thanks to the people that provided useful and thoughtful posts, e.g. Pattaya_Fox, ThaiExpat and mattnich.  Less thanks to the people that provided such thoughtless input as "just throw her a months salary" and "buy yourself out of the wedding now". 

The good news is I got to the bottom of the situation, having lived and worked in Asia for many many years although only 3 in Thailand, you'd think I'd have a sense of the Asian method of not getting directly to the point.  As a falang, when we want to say something, we just darn well say it, but the Asian 'face' thing requires that you verbally circle the issue for a while before getting down to the issue at hand. 

As in many Thai/falang relationships, there are misunderstandings due to language problems.  Neither my wife nor I have mastered each other's languages although we are both making efforts.  The misunderstanding here is that my wife thought I didn't want to show money at the ceremony because by falang standards, showing money for the purposes of showing off is vulgar.  My wife also admitted, she didn't like that practice, actually she brought it up before I and before I subsequently agreed with her on it.  She determined from that, that I didn't want to pay a sinsod, even though I had said, how about 200,000 instead of my wife's suggestion for 400K.  So today after great effort, my wife admitted the whole thing was about money and face.  I was quite surprised and repeated my offer of 200,000 baht.  As per my readings of past posts regarding sinsod, 200K seems to be a generous but not lavish amount to pay. 

Anyway, my wife, who I do indeed care for very much and her father wanted to build a house for my wife and me on his land.  The money was to buy teak from a nearby unused house and to rebuild a new house.  Dad owns about 100 rai or more and "our" house would be for us rather than for the other relatives in the region.  Although my wife and I have no plans to relocate to her village for many years (if ever) we would stay there when we visit the village and when we decide to build somewhere else, we can re-use the teak wood.  It seems that building a house, then taking it down some years later and rebuilding with the same wood in another location is not unusual practice.  I'm told by my wife that they can build a very simple house for 200,000 baht, although less lavish than for 500K, but I personally have no idea of these costs.  It will be ours (my wife and mine) in theory but I have no delusion that I'll ever recoup my money (nor do I care).  I am also assured that there will be no further requests for more money for additional house related things.  I explained my study of the situation via thaivisa.com.

All's well that ends well (so far).  I'll fork out the 200K, my wife seems to be happy about that.  She BTW  is 100% confident that in future I'll help out the family with important things like education for the children beyond just our kids, and I will. 

Thanks again for all the help.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm so glad you got this one sorted and rather surprised by the cynical attitude of some members. Loss of face is very important in the Thai culture and the assumption that just because this lady got pregnant before the marriage means that it is not a love match is naive and ludicrous and, in my eyes, not a bit insulting to those involved. I'm pleased that communication is free and open in this thread, but as a newbie, I'm beginning to wonder just how hardbitten and cynical some members are? Answers on a post card, please!!

[jackr]

Hard to not be cynical sometimes though going by the track record of 'stings' and marriages in Muang Thai, which is not to say sh1t doesn't happen elsewhere but expecting the unexpected here in certain relationships and reading the signals could save much in the way of future hassles.

[JoJo]

bkkmadness.......I think that the sinsod tradition has been utilised as a scam by many Thai families so it is less traditional and more another way of grabbing some extra cash.

I quite agree with this! How do you expect those thinking with the right head not to be cynical? The Thais in this decade are much different from the 1980s or 1990s.

Loss of face is very important in the Thai culture

This may be true but it is so funny and "convenient" that the loss of face is more important when it comes to sinsot/money.

However, it would seem as if sex before marriage, money-grabbing, losing her virginity, working as a BG......although is a big no-no in the Thai culture is not considered losing face.

toothfairy.....Thank you all for your help, at least thanks to the people that provided useful and thoughtful posts, e.g. Pattaya_Fox, ThaiExpat and mattnich.  Less thanks to the people that provided such thoughtless input as "just throw her a months salary" and "buy yourself out of the wedding now".

I think you are just being biaised here. Thanking those people who post what you WANT to hear and criticising those who do not tell you what you want to hear. Different people, different opinions and experiences. Who are you to think what they say is wrong? Sorry if it's not what you want to hear but you know what, "Hey! That's reality and life!"

Edited August 16, 2005 by JoJo

[WhiteShiva]

[i'm so glad you got this one sorted and rather surprised by the cynical attitude of some members.  Loss of face is very important in the Thai culture and the assumption that just because this lady got pregnant before the marriage means that it is not a love match is naive and ludicrous and, in my eyes, not a bit insulting to those involved.  I'm pleased that communication is free and open in this thread, but as a newbie, I'm beginning to wonder just how hardbitten and cynical some members are?  Answers on a post card, please!! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't worry about that Toothfairy - the Sin Sot issue is porbably one of the most controversial subjects on this forum. Several of the people who have paid Sin Sot in the past think not paying Sin Sot is "Cheap Charlie", and the people who have not paid Sin Sot think those of us who have done so are complete idiots.

The truth probably lies somewhere in between.......

Edited August 16, 2005 by WhiteShiva

[Nepal4me]

However, it would seem as if sex before marriage, money-grabbing, losing her virginity, working as a BG......although is a big no-no in the Thai culture is not considered losing face. 

Huh? JoJo Of course these things are a big loss of face for the family.

Thank you all for your help, at least thanks to the people that provided useful and thoughtful posts, e.g. Pattaya_Fox, ThaiExpat and mattnich.  Less thanks to the people that provided such thoughtless input as "just throw her a months salary" and "buy yourself out of the wedding now".

I think you are just being biaised here. Thanking those people who post what you WANT to hear and criticising those who do not tell you what you want to hear. Different people, different opinions and experiences. Who are you to think what they say is wrong? Sorry if it's not what you want to hear but you know what, "Hey! That's reality and life!"

I think you missed the point. I thanked people that put some thought into their responses, yes they were positive on the sinsod issue but at least they explained why. The "less thanks" were to people that simply wrote stuff that had no explanation or was such a generalization to be less than useless.

In fact one of the 2 references I made was to somebody that said, "just give them a months salary and if you can give more just do it". That was a positive for sinsod but was pretty useless in terms of constructive explainitive advise. The other was somebody who said, "just buy your way out of the marriage and support the child monthly". I mean come on, cut me some slack here. That was just plain dumb and ignorant and thoughtless of my circumstances. As if buying your way out of a relationship with somebody you care about and is to be the mother of your child is a reasonable solution. How could I not lass out at something that ignorant??? This is a public board and people can post what they like, by the same token if some doorknob suggests that I 'buy off' the girl I married, then it's ok for me to say he's an idiot.

[MyNameIsFarang]

What would a Thai man do if he impregnated a woman who he was not married to? In all likelihood, he'd do a runner.

The future grandparents have no claim to sinsot; they probably owe the Original Poster some money for saving them from 15 years of babysitting.

[JoJo]

QUOTE

However, it would seem as if sex before marriage, money-grabbing, losing her virginity, working as a BG......although is a big no-no in the Thai culture is not considered losing face. 

Huh?  JoJo Of course these things are a big loss of face for the family.

Exactly my point! This causes them to lose face and yet they still do it. Get my drift now?

So why stress on the sinsot to save face when they have already lost it?? Hypocrisy?

(Edited as I misread and misposted, corrected now.)

Back to my earlier point which makes sense. If sinsot has to be paid, the groom and bride should decide together (no inteference) as a step to their future TOGETHER. Not by greedy parents/relatives and other greed influenced people.

Edited August 16, 2005 by JoJo

[Nepal4me]

QUOTE

However, it would seem as if sex before marriage, money-grabbing, losing her virginity, working as a BG......although is a big no-no in the Thai culture is not considered losing face. 

Huh?  JoJo Of course these things are a big loss of face for the family.

Exactly my point! This causes them to lose face and yet they still do it. Get my drift now?

So why stress on the sinsot to save face when they have already lost it?? Hypocrisy?

(Edited as I misread and misposted, corrected now.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you've lost the plot.

[JoJo]

No, I think you missed my point.

Woman had sex and perhaps living with the man now.....hence sex before marriage......loss of face. In the scenario where the woman is a BG, she has already lost face. I have nothing against BGs but am trying to clear up the confusion.

So, why should sinsot be a form of saving face when she has already lost face?? Do you understand my point now? IMO, it's just an excuse to get money out of it. Why else would they "demand" a certain sum and non-negotiable?

How can a parent put a price on their own children?? Should be up to the child to think what is best and what they (groom and bride) can afford. As I said, not everyone is rich.......what happens then? Move on to a richer victim.....errr groom?

Edited August 16, 2005 by JoJo

[Khun Larry]

Offer her MOM 500 baht and another 5000 when she swims the English Channel

[Nepal4me]

Ok, I think your point is getting clearer now but let's not suggest that 'face' is a simple generic term that applies exactly the same under every circumstance. If the girl is a bar girl, has been married before, has 3 different children with 3 different men, finished school at 13 years old, there is a lot more face lost than if a girl has fewer of those less than desirable instances and in that case would be deserving little sinsod if any sinsod. In other words, as in my case, the girl got pregnant, there is a loss of face for the family but it's less face lost than if she met the other noted criteria. So the family has lost some face, in my case, should I not do something to help the family recover some face? i.e. pay a sinsod that is not going to be used for the new karaoke enabled TV, but rather to have a house built that is to be for us, i.e. my wife and me. In reality the house will be used very rarely by us but the family is a good family and has never had this type or any type of face-loss before. Is it wrong of me to want to help my new family this way?

[bkkmadness]

JoJo, face is lost if a girl goes into the 'trade' but it can be regained as well, hence the coming back home with the big sin sod payment and new husband and being out of the 'trade'.

[JoJo]

I don't think it is wrong to want to help your gf/wife's family out but there are limits. Assistance should be on your own accord and what you want to do....not "demanded" nor expected.

You can build your wife/gf and you a house or buy them that karaoke machine but I do not see why you should hand over a specific sum demanded by them.

It is not my intention to create a ruckus about it but that's my views as a mother, parent and a person who has no emotional ties in this.

Good luck with whatever you want to do.

bkkmadness, if "face" can be bought by money, it tells you a lot about the society and what drives them in life.

Edited August 16, 2005 by JoJo

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Why go over it endlessly ? I've never heard of post marriage Sin Sot payment, and as it seems, nobody else has either. If you want to make some sort of ex gratia payment, then do so, it is your call, but I suspect your outlaws will have a good laugh behind your back. Most decent inlaws return the money to the newlyweds as soon as the money is sighted by the guests at the wedding party. Not the case here old son. You are getting rolled. Use the SEARCH function on here and look at volumes on the Sin Sot subject. Like this thread, they tend to deteriorate like this one has. But you are pioneering a new concept all together.

[bkkmadness]

bkkmadness, if "face" can be bought by money, it tells you a lot about the society and what drives them in life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't you think that 'face' can be bought in the UK or any western country in much the same way. Picture the two ladies standing chatting over their garden fences, one proudly telling the other that her daughter has just married a doctor and is now living in a big house in a nice area.

Or the neighbour that gets a brand new expensive car, do they not get a certain degree of 'face' with this materialistic item as well?

I believe though we may not call it 'face' in the UK, the old term "Keeping up with the Jones'" could be translated as "keeping as much face as the jones'".

I think its the 'face' issue is less a money thing, but more a proof of that daughter doing well for herself and finding a good man. The proof he is a good man is initially shown by the amount of money produced.

Thats often in the West as well, how many times must you have heard that girl getting married to that handsome prince charming, followed by some one saying "and he's rich too!" and if that's extra proof she has done well for herself and got a good man. She gets 'face' this way, no?

In the west, 'face' is gained with money too and society is just as controlled by the need to show how much money they have. Hence everybody walking about in designer clothes and having to buy that brand new mobile phone, its all about gaining 'face'.

[bkkmadness]

Why go over it endlessly ?  I've never heard of post marriage Sin Sot payment, and as it seems, nobody else has either. If you want to make some sort of ex gratia payment, then do so, it is your call, but I suspect your outlaws will have a good laugh behind your back. Most decent inlaws return the money to the newlyweds as soon as the money is sighted by the guests at the wedding party. Not the case here old son. You are getting rolled. Use the SEARCH function on here and look at volumes on the Sin Sot subject. Like this thread, they tend to deteriorate like this one has. But you are pioneering a new concept all together.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah have to agree, just come on here to comment on some things, but having read the original post, you are getting rolled.

26 yrs old, pregnant before marraige blah de blah and whatever else, they are chucking a very high cost on this girl. Plus, the sinsod is for show at the marraige ceremony, if you give them it now, its not about face, its about them wanting money from you. I wouldn't pay it.

[Jai Dee]

bkkmadness, if "face" can be bought by money, it tells you a lot about the society and what drives them in life.

I gather you haven't spent much time here in Thailand JoJo?

[JoJo]

on the contrary Jai Dee, I have been here 5 years (residing) and in total 10 years (in and out of Thailand), hence my statement. Not a naive newbie to TH.

Edited August 16, 2005 by JoJo

[bkkmadness]

And with regards to my statement JoJo, do you not think in the West there is a certain amouynt of 'face' to be gained with money ie. that lavish wedding, those new trainers, that chanel bag?

Edited August 16, 2005 by bkkmadness

[Khutan]

Why go over it endlessly ?  I've never heard of post marriage Sin Sot payment, and as it seems, nobody else has either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So true;

I passed this one around the office, there are some very hi-so people there, as well as your average office workers.

The consensus on this is

"Once whe wedding has finished - that is it"

So all the money, all the payments all the deals etc are considered compete.

[Jai Dee]

on the contrary Jai Dee, I have been here 5 years (residing) and in total 10 years (in and out of Thailand), hence my statement.  Not a naive newbie to TH.

Then you should know something about the Thai "face" concept by now.

Please don't misunderstand me... I'm not having a go at you... but your earlier post about buying "face" and the type of society in which it happens didn't ring quite right with me.

Perhaps you'd like to explain further... ?

/Edit - I know this is slightly off-topic, but it is strongly related to the subject of the thread.

Edited August 16, 2005 by Jai Dee

[JoJo]

bkkmadness, never said Westerners are not materialistic. I have not met a Western man who has been demanded a certain set amount of money by his western in-laws yet. Have you?

As I said, I was voicing my views on this, did not intend for this to be a debate nor create a ruckus.

[JoJo]

Please don't misunderstand me... I'm not having a go at you... but your earlier post about buying "face" and the type of society in which it happens didn't ring quite right with me.

Jai Dee. I understand TOO well the concept of the Thais nowadays, compared to the 80s or 90s. It used to be a disgrace when country girls goes to BKK to work in the bars. Nowadays, it seems it is "encouraged" as the "proespects" are good. Being seen with a farang then seemed looked down upon, but now it seems as if it is in "in" thing to do. Times have changed.

The "face" part seems hypocritical to me as the woman would have lost face (either slept with the man/live with him or was a former BG, hence the loss of face) already and yet greedy parents want a ridiculous amount of sinsot in order to "save face". It's not that I do not comprehend it but its's plain bullshit IMO.

Type of society?....well, tells you a lot if one reads the people properly. That being said, I am NOT saying all Thais are bad, there are sincere ones too, depending on your luck. Same as everywhere else in the world.

I am not having a go at anyone either.

Edited August 16, 2005 by JoJo

[bkkmadness]

bkkmadness, never said Westerners are not materialistic. I have not met a Western man who has been demanded a certain set amount of money by his western in-laws yet. Have you?

As I said, I was voicing my views on this, did not intend for this to be a debate nor create a ruckus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No ruckus JoJo, I enjoy the debate. I fully agree with you any society that gains face by a show of money is a bit twisted, and that covers most societies of the world, including every Western one.

There are a lot of dowry systems in the West aren't there, the only switch being that the woman pays for the man? Obviously they are more out of date in the West now and do not happen so much, but here it is still a common tradition as we all know.

[JoJo]

That's why I said I agreed with you on this.........

I think that the sinsod tradition has been utilised as a scam by many Thai families so it is less traditional and more another way of grabbing some extra cash.

[bkkmadness]

That's why I said I agreed with you on this.........

I think that the sinsod tradition has been utilised as a scam by many Thai families so it is less traditional and more another way of grabbing some extra cash.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I totally agree with you agreeing with that, it is after all probably the wiset thing that has been said on this web board today.

[The Dude]

It is a mistake to marry a Thai IMO, but the damage is done. I would just shell out the cash to avoid friction. Too many times I see confrontation with Thais over cash an unwinnable situation. Don't listen to the cheapies here, just pay it, be done w/it and move on. 500K aint the end of the world

[Jai Dee]

Jai Dee. I understand TOO well the concept of the Thais nowadays,...

<snip>

I am glad that you understand.

Unfortunately it isn't likely to change, so as long as you recognise that and accept that you cannot change it, then you won't get upset over it.

Having said that, it doesn't mean that you have to agree with it...

/Edit - fixed typo.

And talk about blowing your own trumpet bkkmadness...

Edited August 16, 2005 by Jai Dee

[mrbojangles]

It is a mistake to marry a Thai IMO, but the damage is done.

Does your brain know what your fingers are typing

[bkkmadness]

It is a mistake to marry a Thai IMO, but the damage is done.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why a mistake? How did you get that ridiclous opinion?