Scams In Thailand

[Richard Hall]

To answer to the original posting: Scams will stop at the very moment when people stop falling for them which apparently means NEVER.

Although it sounds kind of harsh but it is indeed amazing with what stupidity and naivity some full grown supposed to be mature individuals stagger through life. The Nigerian scammers have gone old and grey and keep succeeding and so do all the other crooks. And if someones comes along to sell the moon at a bargain price there will be long queues of suckers trying to outbid each other.

Only one hope remains. May those that got scammed learnt their lesson from it so at least there was some benefit for the expenses.

Still wondering what is more frustrating. The dishonesty or the ignorance of mankind?

Cheers,

Richard

[Sunbelt Asia]

Thailandwatcher

A fellow member asked me to look at the potential purchase of a business being brokered by a certain *premium sponsor* .

You are referring to us. We are the only sponsor with Thailand Visa that brokers businesses.

In response to my request for certain basic financial information, the reply received back from them was so daft, I told him to cease due diligence immediately.

That’s fine. Did your friend, Thailandwatcher tell you that he signed the following...

Counsel Disclosure

Buyers are advised to seek counsel from an attorney, certified public accountant and any other parties necessary to make an informed decision regarding the purchase of any business opportunity bought or sold through Sunbelt Business Brokers. Initial:_________

We encourage potential buyers to do due diligence. In fact the potential buyer if he becomes the buyer of a business, not only has signed the above once but twice!

they were representing the seller rather than the buyer. (People often forget that

If Thailandwatcher friend didn't know it before coming to our office. He did when he signed this.

Agency Disclosure

The Buyer acknowledges that Sunbelt is acting as agent of the seller and all fees due Sunbelt are, and will be the responsibility of the seller. Seller's agent is an agent who acts under a listing agreement with the seller and acts as the agent to the seller only. A seller's agent has affirmative obligations to the seller including the fiduciary duties of loyalty, obedience, disclosure, confidentiality, reasonable care and diligence, and accounting in dealing with the seller. In addition, a seller's agent has affirmative obligations to the Buyer and Seller of honest dealing and disclosure. Initial:_________

He not only has to signed the above once but twice. Once again when deciding to acquire the business.

.....but it just goes to show that you need to take responsibility for your own key business matters when paying out capital here, 'Caveat Emptor'

Yes that is correct. That is why Thailandwatcher friend would have to sign this already..

Risk Disclosure

Business opportunities by their very nature carry risk. Some of these risks include obsolescence or reduced demand for service or product, regulatory laws, ineffective management, changes in the local or national economic condition, and many others. Due to the risks inherent in business opportunities, a buyer could incur a loss, including but not limited to their entire investment. Buyer acknowledges that they understand these risks and that Sunbelt Business Brokers cannot and does not in any way warrant or guaranty the future vitality or prospects of any business. Initial:_________[

Once again when he decided to take over the business.

He would have had already had to sign this before getting information on the business...

Information Disclosure

Buyer acknowledges that all information and material on each business opportunity provided by Sunbelt has been provided to Sunbelt by the seller of the business. The seller believes that information to be true and accurate; however, accuracy is not guaranteed and all information should not be considered complete. While statements may be presented concerning a matter of opinion, whether or not so identified, these are only statements of opinion. Sunbelt makes no representations or warranties, expressed or implied, regarding the information provided to Buyer. Initial:_________

and this...

DISCLAIMER – All information and materials provided by SUNBELT to prospective buyers have been initially provided by our client, the Seller. Our client believes the information to be true and accurate. However, accuracy is not guaranteed and all information should not be considered complete. While statements may be presented concerning a matter of opinion, whether or not so identified, they are only statements of opinion and should not be construed to be fact. SUNBELT MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED. All information provided is for confidential use and is used solely for the purpose of evaluating the company as a potential purchaser.

and this...

DISCLAIMER OF CONSULTANT’S LIABILITY AND BUYER’S RESPONSIBILITY: When a “Consultant” takes a business to market they receive information about the business from the seller, usually including but not limited to tax returns, financial statements, equipment lists and facilities leases. Based on information provided by the seller, “Consultant” often prepare a summary description of the business, which may include a cash flow projection, an adjusted income statement, or a seller discretionary cash flow statement. Buyer understands that the “Consultant” does not audit or verify any information given to Sunbelt or make any warranty or representation as to its accuracy or completeness, nor in any way guarantee future business performance. Buyer is solely responsible to examine and investigate the business, its assets, liabilities, financial statements, tax to establish the price Buyer is willing to pay. Any decision by Buyer to purchase the Business shall be based solely on Buyer’s own investigation and that of Buyer’s legal, tax and other advisors. Buyer expressly releases, discharges, and holds harmless Sunbelt from any and all responsibility and/or liability in connection with the integrity of such information or for any action Buyer may take with regard to any business and Buyer accepts sole and final responsibility for the evaluation of such information or material or physical or other assets or price of the Business weather furnished by consultant or by Seller or Seller’s representatives and Buyer further hereby accepts sole and final responsibility for any price offers made by Buyer.

I don't want to bog this tread down, on legal jargon. Because believe me your friend, Thailandtraveler would of signed more documents stating the above and more. Especially right before he was ready to acquire the business. PM me and I’ll send more paperwork explaining we don’t do due diligence on our listings.

In fact look at the business profile. In bold print it states in a frame box

The above information has been secured from the Seller. Sunbelt in no way guarantees the accuracy of the information,nor does it warrant any assumptions as true and correct

So you look at a business and it didn't meet your criteria. Was your friend out of pocket for looking? Did it cost him any money to look? Buying a business is a step of many. Your friend was on #7 out of the 20 steps needed. It wasn’t good in your opinion, so move on. He should look at another. No professional buyer buys the first company he looks at their financials. Investigate, investigate and investigate some more.

Lets go on to your topic title

scam :A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.

Where was your friend swindled by us?

Lets also look at

I would ask you to contact 100 Business Brokers or Investment Bankers. Ask them how many state they do due diligence for their clients. The answer is none have. Why because of the conflict of interest and their findings would be worthless as the buyer would have to do their own due diligence. However by your definition every Business Broker or Investment Bankers is a scam.

Putting aside other companies in the whole World. Did your friend have the above disclosed? Yes. He would of signed 11 times that we don’t do due diligence on Sunbelts listings but yet you state “Scams in Thailand”

Not only doing due diligence on our own listings, a conflict of interest. It also is expensive. When do you do it, at the time of getting the listing? 3 months later? 6 months later? 9 months later?

Who would pay for this cost?

Only 1 out of 5 businesses are acquired. Even setting aside the conflict of interest, if we were able to do it. As we work on a success basis( We only get paid when the business is acquired). That means if we did it the cost of doing due diligence 5, 10, 15 maybe even 20 times would need to be passed on to one buyer. This cost may make the business more double the original asking price. The solution is simple; every buyer or their advisors does their own due diligence. That’s the way it has been in all of 397 Sunbelt offices around the World and every competitor.

While I have the dictionary open. Lets visit the word..

Defamation:

An attack on the good reputation of a person, by slander or libel.

Your friend was recommended to get legal advice and now you are as well. Ask your lawyer what defamation of character in Thailand means…

In my book, you didn't get your facts straight by implying we didn't do due diligence on the business, so were a scam.

If we stated we did do due diligence and had not. Just to make the sale. This is a scam. However clearly your friend was told.

Heres another agreement your friend would have had to signed. It's the Memo record of showing which once again states

Buyer further acknowledges that all information and materials on each business opportunity provided by Sunbelt have been provided to Sunbelt by the Seller of the business. Our client believes the information to be true and accurate. However, accuracy is not guaranteed and all information should not be considered complete. While statements may be presented concerning a matter of opinion, whether or not so identified, they are only statements of opinion and should not be construed to be fact. SUNBELT MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED. All information provided is for confidential use and is used solely for the purpose of evaluating the company as a potential purchaser.

Greg Lange

Managing Director

Sunbelt Asia Co., Ltd

www.sunbeltasia.com

02-642-0213

[The_Moog]

Edited August 13, 2005 by The_Moog

[bkkmadness]

Quite an edit The Moog, being wary of your warning level?

[Pattaya_Fox]

without prejudice.

As far as I can see Sunbelt Asia is a business transfer specialist which to me would seem the equivalent of a specialist estate agency in the Uk who deals with business transfers.

As such they will have to rely to a large extent on the information provided by the vendor of a business as to its accuracy.

It would be an impossible task for any estate agent or business transfer specialist to act as the vehicle for non disclosure to the purchaser as well as bringing a conflict of interest between vendor and purchaser which could open the way for litigation in the future.

It is up to any business purchaser to do their own homework when buying a part of a business or a complete business and employ qualified accountants and a lawyer to ensure that the information as presented by the vendor is accurate.

This is only common sense and if the purchaser feels he is unhappy then he walks away.

It is no good griping after the purchase as investigations and correct legal advice should be taken before signing the contract.

[sriracha john]

The_Moog[/b],2005-08-13 11:42:24]A fellow member asked me to look at the potential purchase of a business being brokered by a certain *premium sponsor* .

In response to my request for certain basic financial information, the reply received back from them was so daft, I told him to cease due diligence immediately.

Thailandwatcher ???

A fellow member asked me to look at the potential purchase of a business being brokered by a certain *premium sponsor* .

You are referring to us. We are the only sponsor with Thailand Visa that brokers businesses.

In response to my request for certain basic financial information, the reply received back from them was so daft, I told him to cease due diligence immediately.

That’s fine. Did your friend, Thailandwatcher... ???

If Thailandwatcher friend... ???

Yes that is correct. That is why Thailandwatcher friend...???

Because believe me your friend, Thailandtraveler... ???

While I have the dictionary open. Lets visit the word..

Defamation:

An attack on the good reputation of a person, by slander or libel.

Your friend was recommended to get legal advice and now you are as well. Ask your lawyer what defamation of character in Thailand means…

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you do sue for defamation, make sure you sue the right party.

Edited August 13, 2005 by sriracha john

[LoveDaBlues]

uh.....what? Edited August 14, 2005 by LoveDaBlues

[thaibebop]

I'm lost.

[petedk]

To answer to the original posting: Scams will stop at the very moment when people stop falling for them which apparently means NEVER.

You say these scams will only stop when people stop falling for them. I agree in cases like the Nigerian scams and other scams claiming to make you rich with no effort from your part but the cases in Pattaya involve innocent people who are only out to enjoy themselves.

I have rented cars many times and I expect to be able to do so without being ripped off afterwards by some false claims of damage.

The guys in Pattaya who rented the jet skis were just enjoying themselves and paid the usual fee. They don't expect to come back and be charged 5000 baht for something they didn't do. I think that here the police could do something to stop these scammers, especially when it happens so often.

As for the other scams such as claiming that budhist temples are closed for lunch or buddhist holidays then I agree, the tourist should know about these. They are after all mentioned in nearly every guide book of Thailand.

What amazes me is that they happen in front of Thai Tourist Police who do nothing.

I can just imagine this scam taking place outside Wat Pho or somewhere and the tourist decides to jump in the Tuk Tuk and casualy drops his cigarette but on the floor only to be fined 2000 baht. He then drives off in the Tuk Tuk and wastes more money on useless imitation gem stones.

[Richard Hall]

He then drives off in the Tuk Tuk and wastes more money on useless imitation gem stones.

... and so the scam goes on and on .

My experience and philosophy. Don't trust ANYONE particularly not those that you do not know. People get scammed and cheated by their own family members everywhere in the world so just put it into relation when interacting with people you do not even know.

Now, at the age of 44 years and plenty of lessons I tend to just say to people in kind but firm words to just "bugger off". Enjoying youself is legitimate but why get it spoiled by being too trustworthy. Unfortunately, people tend to either switch off their brains or leave it even at home when travelling and then all of a sudden their is a bad awakening. Sad but reality. Crooks do not look like crooks and usually have the sweetest smiles and great charisma and that's why they succeed as crooks. They prey at grounds where there have the greatest chances to succeed which is where decent people go to enjoy themselves and get a well deserved break. Yes they use and abuse and particularly there where there are not supposed to do it. Therefore be alert WHENEVER interacting with other people and stretch out the whiskers even more when money comes ito play. EVER!

Better establish an attitude that people suck and get pleasantly surprised when you encounter a different and positive situation rather than the other way around. If something looks just a little bit fishy stay away rather than running a risk. You may not be all the people's best friend but on the other hand the odds to end up as a victim (translates sucker) reduce significantly.

Getting something in written (e.g. dents made part of the rental contract) means much more than all the nice words and promises made. Again, when in doubt and there are chances that you may end up on thin ice just walk away. Why, why, why running any chances to get spoilt the best time of the year as a tourist by a scumbag disguised as a human being? Being a bit too overly sensitive is surely a better recipe than a bit too trustworthy particularly if you are in an environment you are not absolutely familiar with.

Cheers,

Richard

Edited August 14, 2005 by Richard Hall

[uncle paul]

one thing that should be made clear is that agents have a duty to provide accurate information no matter what is signed!

to hide behind "we cannot guarantee the accuracy of any information provided" should suggest to anyone with half a brain that you should use extreme caution as it suggests that " we want your money and dont really care how we get it"

[RamdomChances]

one thing that should be made clear is that agents have a duty to provide accurate information no matter what is signed!

to hide behind "we cannot guarantee the accuracy of any information provided" should suggest to anyone with half a brain that you should use extreme caution as it suggests that " we want your money and dont really care how we get  it"  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree. Sunbelt sells buisnesses, they act for their client. It up to the buyer to asses the financial info they recive. There is no way sunbelt could "guarantee" the info. I've never dealt with them but I looked at a lot of buisnesses when I first came here, virtualy all of them I would say the financial info was either not avalible or just "made up".It up to the buyer to decide.

Oh Sunbelt I think you were confusing "the moog" with "Thailandwatcher" nothing wrong with "the moog's" post , he looked at some info for a friend and then told him not to bother..no problem.

RC

Edited August 14, 2005 by RamdomChances