China urges restraint to South Korea and North Korea

[bangkokrick]

I would not call the banning of FB, twitter and Youtube aggression if that is what you are referring to. Why call it attacks and what has this to do with NK? Anyway we will soon see NK's intentions as the naval exercises began today.

Rick

[elcent]

I would not call the banning of FB, twitter and Youtube aggression if that is what you are referring to. Why call it attacks and what has this to do with NK? Anyway we will soon see NK's intentions as the naval exercises began today.

Rick

I mean the spamming of sites. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it is the Chinese that have over 300 000 000 accounts. FB won't tell you or else the advertisers run away.

Also not to forget that many of them plant infected websites on purpose. It's not too difficult to figure that out.

Yes, great to hear that the naval exercise has begun. After that it needs a navel exercise to cut of the umbilical cord from it's mother, or else mom is also in danger.

[LaoPo]

you may be right about the port issue, this why I put it as a questions.

Chinese owns the world and itself acts of responibility and not tactical denial and blinding tactics. The idea of boycotting Chinese products or at least put high taxes on anything that comes from there is making the rounds and getting more and more popular. Very fast, isn't it? This is the number one reason why China gets nervous and calls for meetings now.

Until about 15 years ago any multinational company that would have acted as they act today would have been charged with espionage.

What about the IT hackings which are rooted in China? I myself just exposed one of this on my site, which was coming from an IT technology university in China putting links with infected websites up, apart from the ugg boots and copied brand spams.

A short example:

Also about 15 years ago I witnessed a German project run by a University which was able to make t-shirt and sweater vendor machines. One could even make his own design and colors with an option to choose from various fabrics for about 150 Baht. 2 minutes and done. Rubber prints were another option.

When I asked why don't you put them in the market the answer was, because we are considerate and it would kill all garment businesses in Asia.

This is to show you that there's still lots of know-how hidden elsewhere. Know-hows that could easily cope with any issues you're concerned with.

Any consideration coming from China, except aggressive behavior? I don't see anything that they contribute to the world other than cheap copies and crappy products. I myself could put up a long list, including multies, one, for which I paid the full price and which just broke down in Chinese style timing, three months for a whooping $1,300.00 product, which was as expensive as if it were made in Japan or Germany. I didn't check before, my bad.

Funny, Walmart is already jumping over at CNN. More and more pressure comes from the people to shut down on Chinese imports. They can open a market in NK if they want to. This time the multies will not have any influence in political matters. The Chinese who were speculating with this woke up to the facts, so, will you?

No resourcefulness coming from China and even prides itself to be the number one polluter on the globe now.

I'm stunned you're so ill-informed; it shows you have no clue, no idea and never visited China.

And, about your T-shirt machines; old story, and I know, since I was the first in Europe doing that kind of business.......more than 35 years ago. Forget it since I know more about that business than you can even think of. The story you paint is nonsense.

China's now calling for urgent meetings..BECAUSE they're afraid of the West boycotting their products; where are you from.... Mars ?

Walmart did you say? What about Walmart...?

You really are very VERY ill-informed as you probably aren't aware that Walmart entered China already in 1996 and has more than 50.000 workers in China in more than 200 Walmart outlets in more than 100 cities.

Do you think Walmart would walk away from China ? Do you think one of the smartest retailers in the world would be that stupid ?

You want another American who has more vision than you will ever have?:

What about Warren Buffett....did you know he has some 10% of the shares (amongst many other Chinese companies) in the world's leading battery manufacturer BYD, and, at the same time will be the largest electrical car manufacturer in a few years; a company with more than 200.000 people ? Will be the LARGEST car manufacturer by 2025 ?

You don't believe me? Wait and see!

All this by one single man who started his company, BYD just 15 years ago in a city, Shenzhen with a mere 78.000 people some 35 years ago with now more than 15 million people.

That's the spirit in nowdays China mr. elcent; bash on; in the same time another high rise tower has been built; millions of workers accomplished another job....

I assume Steven Jobs knew what he was doing, granting FOXCONN industries the licenses to built ALL Apple devices in China in their factories with more than 400.000 people?..spitting (amongst all the other products) out 2,5 million iPads per month and 7 million in the last 3 months of 2010?

Apple, together with Foxconn will built 40 (!) million iPads PER YEAR in China, in the very near future.

American design and intellectual property you say? YESand proudly so but where would Apple have their products made, apart from China ? the US ? Dream on elcent, dream on.

I also assume that Bill Gates knew what he was doing when he invited China's President Hu Jintao and his wife on Bill and Melinda Gates' PRIVATE estate in Seatlle in April 2006.

China not resourcefulness ?

China already overtook the US as the largest car manufacturer in the world and before you can even blink with your eyes they will be the largest producer and exporter next to the largest economy in the world.

Dream on, since I fear you're a fine example of people who are fed with anti-China rampage on a daily basis by your own country media, reading and watching everything in your own language...English I presume.

I've seen it before with the same kind of rampage, coming from the west, when Japan took over so many industries from the US and Europe...and NOW? I don't hear anybody anymore about Japan.

Dream on elcent, dream on, but China is of a different taste and cookie than Japan and isn't it an American saying: "If you can't beat them, Join them!" ?

LaoPo

Edited November 28, 2010 by LaoPo

[elcent]

first the example of the vendor machine was at it was described as "an example" there's still more you don't know.

By the way, how do the multies cope with the demand of 30% increase of wages this year? I think the laborers are right, but do you really think this was the reason why the multies went there in the first place?

I do know many Chinese and quite a few who are doing business big time. Some I'd avoid like the pest and some have it right, like everywhere.

As I mentioned before in another thread I think it was. The multies will have get and digest their lessons. Nature doesn't except a vacuum, so when some will fail, others will rise, no problem.

I'm quite happy when China can look after itself and have progress, I have no issues with that, but it seems to be occupying your mind all the time.

I do have issues about it's politics though and I know I'm not alone. an estimated 700 000 000 plus within China may think likewise.

Most multies and smaller enterprises did not go there to benefit others but themselves, while China and Chinese enterprises take them like the goodies from an X-Mas tree. You seem to fall under this category level in one way or another.

And as you suggested, wait and see.

This doesn't include to keep patience over the NK-China relations and the way they try to handle it. This is a different matter.

I think it's utmost important to keep up pressure on them and I'm certain without that it would look different today and no meetings would be called for.

Have a nice day.

Edited November 28, 2010 by elcent

[Ulysses G.]

Dream on elcent, dream on, but China is of a different taste and cookie than Japan and isn't it an American saying: "If you can't beat them, Join them!" ?

Didn't Neville Chamberlain say something along those lines?

[LaoPo]

Dream on elcent, dream on, but China is of a different taste and cookie than Japan and isn't it an American saying: "If you can't beat them, Join them!" ?

Didn't Neville Chamberlain say something along those lines?

Did he?................Nah..........it was your own esteemed Senator James E. Watson...

The Yale Book of Quotations, which attempts to trace all famous quotations to their earliest findable occurrence, lists this as a proverb. The earliest citation given, in the form "If you can't lick 'em, jine 'em," is from the Atlantic Monthly, February 1932, where it is described as one of Senator James E. Watson's "favorite sayings."

from:

http://freakonomics....u-cant-beat-em/

I like that: “If you can’t lick ‘em, jine ‘em,”

LaoPo

Edited November 29, 2010 by LaoPo

[hammered]

You are seeing a change in balance of world power from a unipolar one to a multipolar one. That this change is happening so quickly after the end of the bipolar cold war shows how quickly in the interlinked globalized world changes occur and that the power of economy far outweighs that of military power now. Mnay are confused by all these changes and we could go back pre-cold war and find people alive today who also remember the European colony period which even brings in another element.

Of course no power likes a transition away from being top dog but right now in the world we have many who have seen this position disappear in recent history and we see a another chnage happening right now as total US hegemony declines to a new world order. The interesting part of course is the repetition of histlry in that the top dog power always undermines itself by its own actions. Eueropean colonies, the Russia (joint top dog) and now the US. The conundrum of how far China rises or how it undermines itself remains, but China has been around a lot longer than most societies and has seen many rise and decline and so will probably be less willing to make the mistakes that others often rush into.

It is an interesting time for observers of history although not one for those who feel that loss of status as their society declines in power terms affects them personally and there are many from many countries alive now who feel this.

[koheesti]

You are seeing a change in balance of world power from a unipolar one to a multipolar one. That this change is happening so quickly after the end of the bipolar cold war shows how quickly in the interlinked globalized world changes occur and that the power of economy far outweighs that of military power now.

The power of economy can be challenged and defeated much easier than the power of military. One is bloody, the other isn't. It's one thing to have a low-paid factory worker assembling parts, it's another to have highly trained military personnel. To defeat a military, you need to go head-to-head. Defeating an economy like China's can be done many non-confrontational ways. One is by finding someplace offering cheaper production. Two years ago around this time I was living in China and went with a friend to Vietnam looking for a cheaper alternative for clothing because China was getting expensive. It would be cheaper for the US and the EU to subsidize factories in Western Africa. Plenty of cheap labor there and the transit time to the EU and US would be a fraction of the time and cost of getting it from Hong Kong.

dam_n, off topic again. Anyway, the latest Wikileaks mentions;

"Thinking about an eventual collapse of North Korea: American and South Korean officials have discussed the prospects for a unified Korea, should the North’s economic troubles and political transition lead the state to implode. The South Koreans even considered commercial inducements to China, according to the American ambassador to Seoul. She told Washington in February that South Korean officials believe that the right business deals would “help salve” China’s “concerns about living with a reunified Korea” that is in a “benign alliance” with the United States. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world/29cables.html?_r=1&hp

[LaoPo]

You are seeing a change in balance of world power from a unipolar one to a multipolar one. That this change is happening so quickly after the end of the bipolar cold war shows how quickly in the interlinked globalized world changes occur and that the power of economy far outweighs that of military power now.

The power of economy can be challenged and defeated much easier than the power of military. One is bloody, the other isn't. It's one thing to have a low-paid factory worker assembling parts, it's another to have highly trained military personnel. To defeat a military, you need to go head-to-head. Defeating an economy like China's can be done many non-confrontational ways. One is by finding someplace offering cheaper production. Two years ago around this time I was living in China and went with a friend to Vietnam looking for a cheaper alternative for clothing because China was getting expensive. It would be cheaper for the US and the EU to subsidize factories in Western Africa. Plenty of cheap labor there and the transit time to the EU and US would be a fraction of the time and cost of getting it from Hong Kong.

dam_n, off topic again. Anyway, the latest Wikileaks mentions;

"Thinking about an eventual collapse of North Korea: American and South Korean officials have discussed the prospects for a unified Korea, should the North's economic troubles and political transition lead the state to implode. The South Koreans even considered commercial inducements to China, according to the American ambassador to Seoul. She told Washington in February that South Korean officials believe that the right business deals would "help salve" China's "concerns about living with a reunified Korea" that is in a "benign alliance" with the United States. "

http://www.nytimes.c...es.html?_r=1

Nice thoughts but impossible for many many reasons.

One of them is: how can you -commercially- unite a continent like Africa with 54 countries and 1 Billion people who also speak so many languages to compete with China, or India or Vietnam for that matter ?

There are already so many wars in Africa including severe discrmination amongst Africans, plus the fact that the mentality is totally "different" than that of the hard working Chinese and Vietnamese that I wonder why you, knowing those countries, brought this up in the first place.

But, there could be a shift in the next 2, 3 or 4 decades from Chinese to African production (for a limited group of products) since the Chinese are investing already in Africa on a huge scale apart from many small and medium size businesses in certain countries in Africa.

It won't be the US and EU to invest and/or subsidize in Africa: it will be the Chinese and Indians.

But....I followed your off-topic sidewalk....mea culpa!

LaoPo

[mark45y]

Dream on elcent, dream on, but China is of a different taste and cookie than Japan and isn't it an American saying: "If you can't beat them, Join them!" ?

Didn't Neville Chamberlain say something along those lines?

Did he?................Nah..........it was your own esteemed Senator James E. Watson...

The Yale Book of Quotations, which attempts to trace all famous quotations to their earliest findable occurrence, lists this as a proverb. The earliest citation given, in the form "If you can't lick 'em, jine 'em," is from the Atlantic Monthly, February 1932, where it is described as one of Senator James E. Watson's "favorite sayings."

from:

http://freakonomics....u-cant-beat-em/

I like that: “If you can’t lick ‘em, jine ‘em,”

LaoPo

“How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing! Neville Chamberlain 1939

[LaoPo]

WikiLeaks: China weary of North Korea behaving like 'spoiled child'

By Tim Lister, CNN

November 29, 2010 -- Updated 2345 GMT (0745 HKT)

(CNN) -- New documents posted on the websites of the Guardian and The New York Times suggest Chinese officials are losing patience with long-time ally North Korea. Senior figures in Beijing have even described the regime in the North as behaving like a "spoiled child." According to cables obtained by WikiLeaks, South Korea's then vice foreign minister, Chun Yung-woo, said earlier this year that senior Chinese officials (whose names are redacted in the cables) had told him they believed Korea should be reunified under Seoul's control, and that this view was gaining ground with the leadership in Beijing.

Chun was quoted at length in a cable sent by the U.S. ambassador in Seoul, Kathleen Stephens, earlier this year. He is reported as saying that "the North had already collapsed economically and would collapse politically two to three years after the death of (leader) Kim Jong-il."

CNN has viewed the cables posted on the newspapers' websites and on the WikiLeaks website.

Continues here:

http://edition.cnn.c...rss_igoogle_cnn

LaoPo

[koheesti]

The power of economy can be challenged and defeated much easier than the power of military. One is bloody, the other isn't. It's one thing to have a low-paid factory worker assembling parts, it's another to have highly trained military personnel. To defeat a military, you need to go head-to-head. Defeating an economy like China's can be done many non-confrontational ways. One is by finding someplace offering cheaper production. Two years ago around this time I was living in China and went with a friend to Vietnam looking for a cheaper alternative for clothing because China was getting expensive. It would be cheaper for the US and the EU to subsidize factories in Western Africa. Plenty of cheap labor there and the transit time to the EU and US would be a fraction of the time and cost of getting it from Hong Kong.

dam_n, off topic again. Anyway, the latest Wikileaks mentions;

"Thinking about an eventual collapse of North Korea: American and South Korean officials have discussed the prospects for a unified Korea, should the North's economic troubles and political transition lead the state to implode. The South Koreans even considered commercial inducements to China, according to the American ambassador to Seoul. She told Washington in February that South Korean officials believe that the right business deals would "help salve" China's "concerns about living with a reunified Korea" that is in a "benign alliance" with the United States. "

http://www.nytimes.c...es.html?_r=1

Nice thoughts but impossible for many many reasons.

One of them is: how can you -commercially- unite a continent like Africa with 54 countries and 1 Billion people who also speak so many languages to compete with China, or India or Vietnam for that matter ?

There are already so many wars in Africa including severe discrmination amongst Africans, plus the fact that the mentality is totally "different" than that of the hard working Chinese and Vietnamese that I wonder why you, knowing those countries, brought this up in the first place.

But, there could be a shift in the next 2, 3 or 4 decades from Chinese to African production (for a limited group of products) since the Chinese are investing already in Africa on a huge scale apart from many small and medium size businesses in certain countries in Africa.

It won't be the US and EU to invest and/or subsidize in Africa: it will be the Chinese and Indians.

But....I followed your off-topic sidewalk....mea culpa!

LaoPo

I never said anything about uniting the entire continent of Africa. Why would you even claim that? Just pick one country and work from there.

Arent you being a tad racist in claiming that black Africans can make shirts in a factory like the Chinese because they are lazy? I see Africans over here in Dubai and they aren't lazy at all. given the opportunity, they go out and get things done.

The US invested a lot into Europe and Japan after WWII and they used that to eat away at the US economy over the years (ex. new steel factories in Europe in 1970's, 70-yr old factories in the USA). The same could happen to China with Africa. They could be helping their own downfall.

They should just build factories in NK and pay them nothing to do the work.

[LaoPo]

I never said anything about uniting the entire continent of Africa. Why would you even claim that? Just pick one country and work from there.

Arent you being a tad racist in claiming that black Africans can make shirts in a factory like the Chinese because they are lazy? I see Africans over here in Dubai and they aren't lazy at all. given the opportunity, they go out and get things done.

The US invested a lot into Europe and Japan after WWII and they used that to eat away at the US economy over the years (ex. new steel factories in Europe in 1970's, 70-yr old factories in the USA). The same could happen to China with Africa. They could be helping their own downfall.

They should just build factories in NK and pay them nothing to do the work.

1. Well, you would need to work at least in/with a few countries to reach a little bit of sufficient production in order to compete with China or India.

Guangdong province alone has some 100+ million people. Egypt 80 million, S Africa 50 million and Nigeria 150 million. Where would you start...which country?

There's is no such thing as to shift production and IF some would do so, it's the Chinese or Indians, not the US or EU; no way since they don't have those production lines anymore.

North Korea would fill in a tiny bit of Chinese production; they have a mere 23 million people; even less people than in Chongqing city: 30 million.

2. I am not being racist if I say that Africans have a different working attitude than Chinese and if you are satisfied with Africans in Dubai that doesn't say that the rest of the 1 Billion Africans are all alike the ones you're talking about; that's the same if I say that the working attitude of Italians would be different as the Brits or Germans or the Americans with Mexicans. Don't drag this discussion into racism; it's not the point.

3. Another major reason is that both the US and the European countries are totally broke and have really something else on their minds than to invest in impossible African factories, trying to produce cheaper than China or India.

They'd better try to reduce their own debts, instead creating more debt on an impossible mission like your suggestion of subsidizing factories, which do not exist in Africa.

The places WITH major cash are in Asia and China in particular, not the West, and your comparison with the US and Europe+Japan after WWII with the Marshal Aid Plan isn't in place since this is not about wars and totally broke and destroyed countries after any wars, apart from the fact that the Chinese are too smart to create their own downfall. By that time they will own many western companies so that there will a shift in world economic powers. Why let all that momey sit in China on more and more worthless paper...?

The Chinese are not going to sit much longer on the mountain of US treasuries since those don't bring any money anymore; they will be using this to buy (US/EU/OCEANIA) profitable companies instead.

LaoPo

Edited November 30, 2010 by LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Wikileaks release 'shows China thinking on Korea'

Officials in China have expressed frustration with communist ally North Korea, according to leaked classified US diplomatic cables.

Pyongyang was behaving like a "spoiled child", a Chinese foreign ministry official is quoted as having said in 2009, in cables released by Wikileaks.

Officials reportedly told South Korean counterparts that Beijing placed little value on the North as a buffer state.

The peninsula should be reunified under Seoul's control, they suggested.

The revelations come as regional tensions remain high after the North shelled a South Korean island a week ago.

The US administration says the Wikileaks disclosures are an attack on the world community, but that partnerships it had worked hard to build would withstand the challenge.

China has responded to the leaks by urging the US to "properly handle relevant issues," a foreign ministry official said on Tuesday.

Continues here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...canada-11871641

SECRET DOCUMENTS FROM 2009:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/231221

&

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/204917

LaoPo

Edited November 30, 2010 by LaoPo