Elite Card

[p_brownstone]

Looks like even Leslie Kierig has given up attempting to justify the existence of this Card - yet another sign that its' days are numbered??

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Looks more like they went off half cocked and tried to make policy on the run

[Whale]

I am not surprised that she has not bothered to answer - if you read through this thread no one was willing to give her a chance, the intense negativity from the outset has shown that the thread is really about posters wanting to spout their view rather than waiting for an answer.

I wish you had not been so negative then we could have actually given her a chance to answer some of the genuine queries. Of course some dont need to hear her answers because they know everything about everything already.

Lets be honest - virtually none of us fall into the category that the card is aimed at (1) tourists 2) "elite") yet each of us wants to know what advantages that we can get from buying the card EVEN though it is not aimed at us generally - to me this is like me wanting to buy a pickup and then haranging the local merc dealer for offering 20% discount on mercedes becuase ITS JUST NOT FAIR.

Ask yourself - if you were selling this - would you attempt to sell it to this board with the negativity that already exists - its would be like like trying to sell Vietnamese language classes to the Khmer, why waste your time.

Just my 2 satang.

[Thaiquila]

Isn't Leslie a boy?

Anyway, I disagree.

I think there would have been a lot of potential buyers among users of this board for the elite card, if it appeared to be a legit thing for the long term.

Here was a chance for Leslie to address the objections in specific ways, and all we get is a cryptic song of the beauty of Thai chaos. Is he saying that the Elite card is part of the chaos, in other words, about as trustworthy as the copy watches you can buy on the streets?

[pnustedt]

I also disagree with Whale.

If the card offered something which approached value for money I and, I believe, quite a few members would have purchased one. However, it is difficult to see what benefit anyone would have received to justify the Baht 1m outlay.

There have been many claims that only people who do not have to think about spending this sort of money would be interested, well in my experience one of the reasons wealthy people are wealthy is because they are careful about what they spend their money on.

This project was ill-conceived, poorly marketed and doomed to failure from the start.

[Leslie Kierig]

No, Leslie has not given up. HE has been viewing occasionally...and welcomes direct questions on this site and at his address previously posted.

Is Leslie gender confused...? No, he has his father to thank for the given name. It's been a challenge for him all his life...especially as a young lad in school. As an adult he enjoys the uniqueness...not just another Bob, Joe, Bill, Jim, Harry, Fred, John, Paul, George, or Ringo...

My own personal feelings about the card.

I think that if the customer is to receive everything as promised...it is an excellent value...just the golf alone pays for the card in a few years. Given the individual memberships range from 750,000 - 2,000,000 baht each. Coupled with the 'Visa for life', and the rights to Acquire and Possess land...I think it is a bargain. But there are those that do not want or need this card as it does not fit their requirements...and try as they may to wish for accomodating changes...they will not happen.

But, before we get ahead of ourselves and pick apart the words..."I think that if the customer is to receive everything as promised..."

All I can say here is that things are done very differently here (in Thailand), as oppossed to the West. Believe me when I tell you that the logistics involved in trying to accomodate all the services and timely deliverence of these services are of the utmost importance and considered top priority. But in a THAI way. This ain't Los Angeles or London.

I feel the observations on this forum of these (TPC) efforts are most likely not far from the truth. And, we can do...'could have...would have...should have'...till we are blue in the face. I know most will probably not value this observation, but those people directly involved in this program (which was thrown upon them practically unannounced by somebody from higher up)...are working night and day, to the best of their abilites, from a very sincere place...literally giving it all they have got...in an effort to accomadate their 'big-boss'.

The rest of us with our socio-economic and geniological beneficial backgrounds sit back and critisize it...thinking with our expansive and wordly experience...could surely do it better with our eyes closed.

Well...maybe...

The work heirarchy in Thailand does not allow for the same freedom of thought or degree of creativety that we were/are blessed with in the West. Everything has to still be done in somewhat the old fashion way. I wish I could change it. I am trying my best to help. But it's their country...to do how they want, and anyway they want. We are the outsiders.

I have spent 27 years in a career of Sales and Marketing. And I use to say to my associates...that if you want to be successfull in this field, you must lose your identity, and put yourself in the other guy's shoes...in the shoes of the client or customer. Very few people can actually divorce themselves from themselves and do that successfully...and that's the West. It's no different here.

I will cease my efforts at defending this noble endeavor and reside myself to answering direct questions as best as I can. And if I can not...I will tell you such. This is not my program, but I have chosen to help the best I can.

By the way...how many of you took advantage of my free card offer on January 1, 2004...?

[DaveYo]

Very noble Leslie, very noble indeed.

Hmmmmmm

Daveyoti

[Guest IT Manager]

Having spoken to Leslie on the telephone, I can assure members, if he is a woman, he has the deepest voice I have ever heard.

That humour now aside, I agree with the view that many members have of the card that it has been hastily buckled together, but does have obvious attractions and at least 3 members of the forum now have it. Only one has fed back on the experience, he views it as a very good investment. He does not, as I understand it, live here full time.

The card was never in reality,aimed at foreign residents. It was always aimed at regular business tourists. As much as I detest the word farang because of how it can be (and often is) used, I dislike the tag "high end tourist".

I can't personally see 1 million sales. That is just a number, IMHO generated for use by the paparazzi, so that it makes long numbers in closely written columns of news print, and doubtless about as meaningful. I don't see that as mattering a great deal either. If you are one of 200 buyers what do you care how many others there are. Likewise if you are one of a million. Though Taxi problems may arise, in my view.

I hope enough are sold to at least cover costs. I also hope we do not lose sight of the fact that the originator of the idea, saw it as an attempt to in some way assist with a short term liquidity problem for the country, not as has been said by some, for himself. I further hope that the benefits touted by the card sales team are all available for the life of the card.

There have been changes since it started, because as anyone who has invested heavily, either in terms of lifestyle or in terms of money will tell you, the first goal post in any training program for Thai people, is to plan, set goals, control direction towards goal achievement, then set the next goal. Thai people do not seem to be very good at it in general, though I doubt that is true for every Thai person. Same as not all foreigners are capable of appropriately managing themselves in some situations.

My personal view is it works for those here regularly, perhaps too young for retirement but well healed none the less, or ready to retire and able to spend extended time in country. For those who are here full time on B or O, it makes little sense. Essentially it's a tourist visa allowing extended stays so it's fair to say it won't enable work permits etc, or possibly even companies, though today I maybe right, whilst tomorrow it may change.

Thanks Leslie for your input, though the nature of the forum encourages me to ask you to come in more often, since you will be the one to get the guernsey, if you do make a few sales through the forum.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Thanks to Leslie for his honest attempt to clarify matters. I know exactly what he means about the pressures from above.

[Whale]

Its a good job you all told me before I asked for a date!!

[Pink Mist]

I guess the most dissapointing part was initially the hoo hah and fanfare, qoutes in the Post BKK, , business meetings extolling the advantages of the new card and what it offered, here in this thread even, then the reality, no guarantees, legislation not in place, nothing finalised.

Personally the land ownership and visa were the only lure for me and as they gradually dissapeared into the land of promise, so did the card to me, it's just a pity they were initially promoted so vigorously.

We gave you a bit of stick Les, you're still here pitching, so good luck, I won't be buying one, as a golfer I am a good swimmer and I dont mind catching a bus to town from the airport.

So $25,000 for a game I dont play and limos I don't catch well!! I am not elite anyway

Regards

Bronco

[Leslie Kierig]

It's not over until the Fat Lady sings...

and there is no Fat lady in sight.

I have a feeling that in the next few weeks, some of us may be singing a different tune. So stay tuned...!

[Guest IT Manager]

It's not over until the Fat Lady sings...

and there is no Fat lady in sight.

I have a feeling that in the next few weeks, some of us may be singing a different tune. So stay tuned...!

My wife just sang...It's all over Leslie.

[Paul B]

Just been through the 11 pages of posts and the visa side of the card is appealing as I'm 40 and intend to work less over the coming years and spend it in Thailand. I'm currently getting a house built in Samui under the usual limited company 30 year renewable lease route and being able to come and go at leisure would be a big plus. I may have missed Leslie's answer but the bottom line for me is what guarentee is offered. If the company went under would the visa legislation still be honoured? I think if some form of guarentee where in place there would be a lot more interest. Perhaps Leslie can give us his view and my appologies if you covered this earlier and I missed it.

[Thaiquila]

I want to add another good word for Leslie.

You have been an exceptionally good sport (perhaps you are a golfer?) under some very harsh fire, some of it from me. I think you have done a good job of shedding light on the reality of the situation.

Looking forward to these new announcements.

I have another specific question, previously asked, not answered.

If a person buys the card as a non-resident of Thailand for 1 million baht, is there any restriction on that person from using the card to become a resident soon thereafter (using the visa priveledges), even though the cost for current foreign Thai residents is 2 million baht?

Or are such persons going to be subject to pay the additional 1 million baht once it becomes clear they are living in Thailand?

You have made it clear that the card is not intended as a vehicle for people to immigrate to Thailand; however it appears to be structured in such a way as to make this possible, and appears to have some appeal to retirees under age 50.

Please clarify this.

Thanks muchly.

[DaveYo]

Please....

Daveyoti

[Leslie Kierig]

######...sorry to hear you have a deliciously large wife... I thought that variety was found mostly back in the States...of course the beauty of Thai culture, you can have a few if your status is high enough and you do not fear 'the duck'...

at least I do not hear her singing...

Paul and Thaiquilia...good questions.

Regarding visa guarentees, or any guaentees for that matter. Today, the anology I use is the one about a Thai bank. You put 1 million baht in a Thai bank and hope that it is there for you tomorrow or ten years from tomorrow...but are there any guarentees...?

Having said that, we have discussed here at TPC the need for more assurances in writing for our customers. What will be finally decided is beyond me at the moment, but I have been definately doing my part in delivering that message (will they shoot the messenger...? Headlines of the Bkk Post..." the body of L@!@% K@!^ was found...)

Resident status is a very specific condition and somewhat difficult now a days to acquire. Residents can not apply for the card and will lose the card or staus. Do you mean Expat...residing in Thailand with type 'O' or 'B' visa...?

I do not know how they will handle that and the gentleman who does know is out of the office at the moment. But I suspect that once you own the card, you become a priorty in the minds of the Thai government. Therefore, should you choose to reside in the Kingdom (spending more money on a full time basis) it should be acceptable in their minds. After all, it was their promotion that brought you here...you are (pardon me for saying this) 'new money found'.

I do not see a problem if it is after and not before.

Edited January 13, 2004 by IT Manager

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The handout I got from a Thai Embassy notes that the card is not available to Thai's, or permanent residents. An O or B foreigner on extensions isn't classed as a residents.

[Paul B]

Thanks for your response Leslie but if you are saying the only guarentee is "hope" then I think you will get very few customers. Can you expand on this hope and give me the official position or is that the official company position??

[Thaiquila]

Thanks for the info, Leslie.

I did mean the cost for expats (as oppoed to Thai residents) currently living in Thailand versus the cost for non-current expats not living in Thailand.

If what you say is true about being able to buy as a non-expat at a lower cost and then becoming an expat (which from my perspective is excellent), that is interesting.

Just another suggestion: the contract should state the the sales price for the card is the final price, and the company will not ask for additional money at a later date.

Again, looking forward to any new announcements.

Big ones would better land buying priveledges (not exactly expecting that) and formalized assurances.

I do wonder about the analogy of the card versus money in a Thai bank.

I am not sure this is really a reasonable comparison of risk.

How much risk do you really think there is leaving money in a large Thai bank?

I understand it can be impossible to move the money out of the country at a later date (without the proper proof of the original source of funds), but what recent precedence is there for people actually losing the money in their deposits due to policy changes of bank failures? Did this even happen during the Thai economic crash in the late 90's?

[Leslie Kierig]

Contract suugestion; that the sales price should be the final price...

Nice suggestion, and I would love to see it as well. However...I don't recall ever seeing such a statement on a contract before. Usually, there is a date...a time frame...definition of services rendered...amount...maybe a few other details and particulars...that's it...signed by both parties, all legally binding. If you go ahead and buy the card under the agreed upon terms and conditions, and the application is accepted by the TPC...how could anybody possibly come back 5 years later and demand more money?

Wait...I know, you are going to tell me TIT...!

I have been fortunate enough in a previous position to spend some time working for one of the larger real estate developers here in the LOS, and with all my clients (particularly foreigners), I would recommend that they consult their attorney(s), just so they can have piece of mind. That would still be my advice.

On another note; I believe somebody in a previous post mentioned that this forum may be a good way for me to sell cards...and therefore my participation in this forum may in fact be one of a very self-serving nature.

Let me just say that if I wanted to do a volume of sales of this card...I would find it much easier to just flip through the pages of the AmCham, Brit Cham, German Cham, Aussie Cham, Canadian Cham member directories (as I have done with past work), and directly target CEO's, MD's, Presidents, and V.P.'s of multi-national organizations, who are all making between 300,000-800,000 baht per month...and I would find them a less critical bunch of individuals to deal with and much easier to close.

Don't get me wrong now, I do enjoy the comments and criticisms on this forum and for the most part everybody seems to be pretty civil...even friendly. It keeps me abreast of the current 'buzz' about our efforts. But, making any money off you guys...I ain't.

Working here with the TPC...I do believe in their efforts and I want to see them/us suceed, and so I have taken upon myself to become a vehicle of information (to the best of my knowledge) to anybody who wishes further information.

[piet pompies]

I bought the card. So far so good. I don't play golf and have a residence already. The benefits for me are going in and through immigration very conveniently and getting to residence with limo in no time. I do not like standing in line at immigration or wait for visas, 90 days or retirement or other. The card takes care of that so I can come and go at my convenience. We fly abroad Europe, at least twice a year, Business Class, usually about 120,000 baht a tkt, times two. now it is two for one, some savings here.

Nothing has guarantees, we can all have a heart attack or stroke tomorrow, and there is a question how much the insurance will cover, same with life insurance.

Each person makes his decision to spend or invest to the best of his ability and the information provided, and there is really no free lunch anywhere.

[Guest IT Manager]

Thanks Piet. I hoped you would post soon.

[Thaiquila]

Granted, it is true. We are not all elite. Check out this bit of humor from the Nation about the new Thailand Scum Card:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/page.news....06552&usrsess=1

And Mr. Leslie, please let us know how long we have to wait for the news about the updates about the elite card.

[Thaiquila]

I think this is too funny for people to miss. The link I left in the previous post no longer works, so here is the entire article about the Thailand Scum Card to any "scumry" that might be interested in an advantageous 10 baht expenditure.

Low-life elites from THE NATION

Published on Jan 16, 2004

If you don’t have Bt2 million to spare on a Thailand Elite card, then the Thailand Scum card might be perfect for you.

In this imperfect world, a crude dualism prevails. Every yin has its yang, every night has its day, every up has its down, every east has its west, every dog has its cat, every Tweedledum has its Tweedledee, and every George W Bush has his Saddam Hussein.

Sages tell us that the key to peace and harmony lies in keeping these opposing forces in balance. When the balance is violated, disorder will ensue.

Thailand is suffering from a gross imbalance. The government is offering the prestigious Thailand Elite card to rich foreigners who have Bt2 million to throw around, but it offers nothing to indigent foreigners who don’t.

In its eagerness to kowtow to the rich and famous of the world – and, incidentally, to nick a good chunk of their money – the government has unwittingly shattered the cosmic balance and knocked askew the feng shui of the nation.

Seeking to redress this imbalance and restore moral order to a society thrown wildly out of kilter, I propose to offer a card to impoverished foreigners that will serve as an indispensable counterweight to the Thailand Elite card.

I thought of calling this the Thailand Cheapskate card, or the Thailand Lowlife card, or the Thailand Dirtbag card. But I finally decided to call it the Thailand Scum card because “scum” says it all about the kind of person I am – and the kind of foreigners I am trying to reach.

I have formed a company to issue this card and administer its benefits. But we won’t just serve the needs of foreign scum in Thailand. No, indeed. I have a grand vision of world domination that will encompass scum from every nation. Hence the name of my company, Worldscum Unlimited. Try visiting our website at www.worldscum.org, and see what happens.

Nothing will happen because we’re too cheap to have a website.

The Thailand Scum card will cost a mere Bt10, because we know you’re a cheapskate – and so are we. It won’t be made of glitzy plastic, but of austere recycled paper. Don’t get it wet or it will disintegrate. It won’t have your photo, just your signature (if you know how to write). If you really feel the need for a photo, you can draw a cartoon of yourself on the back.

I know there are parsimonious persons who will balk at spending 10 valuable baht on our card. They will argue that you don’t need a card to be scum in Thailand, and this is true. But the card offers the opportunity to identify yourself as scum, to affirm your solidarity with the scummy masses and to meet and exchange views with fellow members of the scumry. (Scholarly note: “Scumry” is a term that I have coined, cognate with “citizenry,” to designate the collective membership of the scum community.)

Now, what benefits will foreign scum get for investing their 10 hard-earned baht in our prestigious card? Unlike the Thailand Elite card, the Thailand Scum card will not entitle you to buy property in Thailand. But it will enable you to hang around outside the moats, drawbridges and crenellated walls of other people’s property. You can try to peek inside, but be careful not to annoy any patrolling Dobermans or Gurkha guards carrying AK-47s.

The card doesn’t give you access to posh golf courses, but it does entitle you to loiter beyond the outer perimeters in the hope of stealing a rare glimpse of some rich and famous holder of the Thailand Elite card scoring a birdie on the ninth hole. You might be lucky enough to see a member of the illustrious Burmese military junta on holiday, taking a well-deserved rest from the stresses of crushing ethnic minorities, persecuting dissidents and locking up the winners of democratic elections.

The card doesn’t give you preferential treatment at immigration offices, but it does give you the opportunity to take a number and wait your turn.

It doesn’t give you preferential treatment at luxurious private hospitals, either; but it does give you entry to the waiting rooms of spartan government hospitals, where the wretched huddled masses dumbly linger for hours under sweatshop conditions in the futile hope of glimpsing the back of a passing doctor.

It doesn’t give you discounts at the best hotels, but it does entitle you to pay a mere Bt150 per night at the famed Grotty Guesthouse in Banglampoo, which boasts an actual sheet on the bed (I didn’t say it was clean) and toilet facilities in a nearby alley. You won’t find a complimentary floral bouquet on your pillow, but you might find a cockroach under it.

Our card doesn’t give you hefty discounts on Thai International Airways, but it does qualify you to hitch rides on Thai fishing boats.

When holders of the Thailand Scum card encounter holders of the Thailand Elite card, we demonstrate our good will by courteously breaking wind as they pass by. While liveried footmen usher them to their chauffeured stretch limousines, we crouch serf-like by the gutter and wave our cards, in the hope that this display of cardly solidarity will inspire them to toss a few coins our way – preferably Bt10 ones.

In this way, we assert our dignity and proclaim to all the world that, although we are scum, we too have a card.

S Tsow can be flamed at [email protected], except when he’s crouching serf-like by the gutter asserting his dignity.

S TSOW

[Leslie Kierig]

Too funny...!

You are either Elite or you are Scum...you are 'either with us or you are against us'...smells very Republican...

Can't a person just be 'sort of elite'...'kind of elite'...how's about a 'closet elite'...as I know some of the guys lurking on this very forum have 'latent elite' tendencies...

As for me (or anybody) being able to determine when somebody in a 'high place' will actually take action on something...

[plachon]

Thank you Messrs Tsow and Thaiquila for making my day with that gem. Now let me see, if I save hard for the next month, I might be able to afford two Scum cards. Does that afford me double the priveleges I wonder? 20 Baht is a bargain to get to stay in the Grotty Guesthouse in Banglampoo and watch Burmese generals shooting birdies and bogies on the Elite's courses, I'd say.

Think somebody should start a poll to guage Thaivisa forum's readers' interest in the Scum card vis a vis the Elite card and see how many potential members there are out there. Just think: 100,000 punters forking out 10 baht might turn a healthier profit than the 1 M baht option with all its overheads! Over to you ###### to set up.......

[p_brownstone]

I bought the card. So far so good. I don't play golf and have a residence already. The benefits for me are going in and through immigration very conveniently and getting to residence with limo in no time. I do not like standing in line at immigration or wait for visas, 90 days or retirement or other. The card takes care of that so I can come and go at my convenience. We fly abroad Europe, at least twice a year, Business Class, usually about 120,000 baht a tkt, times two. now it is two for one, some savings here.

Whilst the benefits for Piet may seem to make the Card justifiable for him (although as, say, an Amex Platinum Cardholder - at Baht 25,000.- per year - anyone can get 2 for 1 Airtickets ..... on many airlines, not just Thai) surely they serve to better emphasise doubts about the system:

1) The reason for issuing the Card in the first place

2) It's sustainability

1) If the reason for introducing the Card was to generate more income for Thailand, this has eminently failed in this case, Piet was quite able to purchase full price Airtickets in the past, now the Thai Government is committed to paying for him to fly. It is poor business sense to give something away if the Customer would be willing to pay for it.

2) In order to pay for Piets' Airticket benefits alone, the Card Company must generate Baht 240,000.- per year on the Baht 1 million Piet paid for the Card - just not possible on a consistent basis, so it is VERY clear here that the benefits are being funded out of new Card sales.

Like all Ponzi type schemes, those who get in first will probably recoup their investment, the unfortunates drawn in later won't.

[Khun ?]

What hotels and what golf courses will accept the card. A purple hanging out the passport will get you through immigration fairly quick. Never had more than a 2 or 3 minute wait on taxi, limo about 30 seconds. So the visa is the only usefull issue left for the card and it is probably the only issue it was ever meant to have.

They are not interested in anything but the visa issues. Once you have left the airport the card is more or less void. Why don't they just sell a 6 month unlimited

visa at consulates and arrival hall at airport. I think 60,000 baht each would get their money for them without all the quirks and uncertanties as the elite card.

Show up at the airport they snap a pic of you and the computer puts this along

with your prefilled out application on a credit card size elite visa. If they really wanted to cut down on processing cost 100,000 baht for a 1 year unlimited elite visa.

Business elite visa could sell for 200,000 a year with 5 main card holders and 2

guest visa cards that would allow up to 5 guest per card for 90 days each upon arrival and of course the sponsor (business would have submitted the application for vistor at least 2 weeks in advance who gets a special stamp in his passport on arrival through the elite visa counter on arrival.

If hotels and Golf courses want to accept and target the elite visa holders let them advertise for the business and specials they want to offer.

I think the 5 year (life time elite card) is showing itself as a bust already.

People that want to make big purchases should be able to have another avenue directly with immigration in country ie; property purchases and whatever else under 5 mil get one year visa unlimted entry/exit and above 5 mil the same with extensions 2 each of 1 year, and above 10 mil a 5 year unlimited entry/exit visa. The government could contract the work out if they could not set up the system itself but I think they need to keep the control of visa issue inside the government,

putting it in the hands of businesses makes it cumbersome and questionable on its validity. I guess many ways to get the money they are looking for but the 1 or 2 mil is not looking of substance and very questionable at the least.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Too funny...!

You are either Elite or you are Scum...you are 'either with us or you are against us'...smells very Republican...

Can't a person just be 'sort of elite'...'kind of elite'...how's about a 'closet elite'...as I know some of the guys lurking on this very forum have 'latent elite' tendencies...

As for me (or anybody) being able to determine when somebody in a 'high place' will actually take action on something...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ole Leslie has been out of that business for a long, long time. He's somewhat smarter than I first thought