WikiLeaks alleged Russia bribed Bout witnesses

[ajarnmark]

Bad luck Russia. Obviously America's bribes were bigger than yours.

So you believe in everything u read?

WikiLeaks is another of CIA's trick to create confusion... just like US did during WWII...

[Bagwan]

Think about it: if you had a friend who, every few weeks blabbed in the marketplace the most intimate and embarrassing secrets you confided with her, then you'd likely not confide in her any more.  

This is probably true but then the way to subvert this is to live an honest and open life  and not do anything that is illegal and/or immoral you are ashamed to admit to. 

I'll leave one of the ladies to take you to task for implying that only the females of our species have loose tongues.  

[jayboy]

You obviously get your version of history from Hollywood aka a dreamworld.

He is not alone in that. Despite the valiant efforts of both Russia and Britain, WW2 would have been lost if not for the USA.

The contribution of the USSR in WW2 was so huge it dwarfs that of all others.The war would not have been lost without the U.S (because the USSR would have won it) but it would have meant a Soviet dominated Western Europe.So you could plausibly argue the Americans saved Britain from Stalin.Asia is a more difficult case to read if the US had been isolationist.One assumes that Russia would have done a deal with the Japanese, perhaps taken India for itself and left S.E Asia to the Japanese empire.So in short one cannot say the Americans were the decisive influence in winning but their involvement meant the post war settlement was a much better one.

[whybother]

Debating sources and citations is a sure sign of a poor argument.

If you disagree with the point that someone is trying to make - in this case that of excessive censorship by the Thai govt - say so! and put forward your counter argument. Quibbling over minutiae makes a facile argument.

I'm just wondering why 1800?

There are thousands of sites blocked. Wikileaks has been blocked for a long time, because of an article relatinging to the monarchy. Most of the sites are blocked for this reason.

1800 is small considering the number of sites supposedly blocked. Why use any number if it's just pulled out of your ........?

You still don't seem to grasp that it is a best tangential to the argument - give it a rest!

Tangential to what argument?

I disagree with the LM laws. I disagree with most of the censorship. But what is the point of a comment when he just pulls a number out of his arse?

It's irrelevant to the blocking of wikileaks because it's been blocked for ages, apparently because of some documents relating to the monarchy. It was even blocked before there was a document relating to blocked websites leaked.

[ianbaggie]

[America. Back the FARC, the Taliban, N. Korea., Mugabe...anybody but America....Idiots...

...so you just forgot that the USAmericans created the Taliban? btw, for the same reason they wanted Bout now.....but sure, you are right, its a big difference to kill Russians or Iraquis as Israeli or UScitizens.

Its not that most people hate USAmericans, they just hate the government there and what it stands for TRULY. Thats not humanity its just business!

the USA did NOT CREATE the Taliban!! where do you get these made up things from? They supported the Afghans against the invading russians - who NEVER got panned for invading Afghanistan - like the US did for removing a dictator from iraq!! STUFF the Russians - stuff their mafia, stuff theirt KGB, Stuff their corrupotion, stuff their bribes and STUFF THEIR RACISM - god help the 2018 world cup!!!

[ianbaggie]

Isn't it a pity some euro politician didn't pass a law banning American intervention in WWI and WWII. But of course, reciprocity is a hard word to translate. Just be thankful you don't have to finish your post with "Seig Heil".

How silly to bring up 2 wars which were 95/100 and 65/70 years ago.

Would you like to give me your bank account details ? Would you accept any foreign nation diving into ALL bank details from all citizens ? Give me a break.

And, no need to insult other members with your below-the-belt attack and getting personal with a Nazi-style remark ; it's against forum rules.

LaoPo

HOW SILLY OF YOU not to recognize both the relevance and the pertinence of the point raised - go read some history books if you want to see whats happening now - problem is you and your sort dont wat to FACE FACTS!! OH and his reference to Nazis as a warning, does not break forum rules any more than the rubbish that you post in reply unfortunately doesnt!. The world is quick to decry the west - except when they need help from it!!

Edited December 3, 2010 by ianbaggie

[ianbaggie]

Why have another 1800 sites been blocked in Thailand also ??Apparently in the interests of 'national security'..Protecting who??

Where did you get that number?

By the mid of last June the number was already over 113,000 blacklisted websites in Thailand, being the first country in the world surpassing the 100,000 goal.

Google is your friend.

LaoPo

NOT TRUE - In Saudi and Kuwait the internet is TOTALLY censored!! ove 5,000,000 sites - even jazz sites that have the word "sextet" are unreachable - get your facts right!!

[ianbaggie]

Isn't it a pity some euro politician didn't pass a law banning American intervention in WWI and WWII. But of course, reciprocity is a hard word to translate. Just be thankful you don't have to finish your post with "Seig Heil".

Isn't it a pity that a law has not been enacted that prevents ignoramuses perpetuating the myth that the US saved Europe from subjugation by Hitler and his bullies. Those in touch with reality would give much of the credit to the Russians - and a handful of British, Commonwealth and European fighter pilots - for that.

You obviously get your version of history from Hollywood aka a dreamworld.

NOT TRUE - the part the US played in the 2nd world war was HUGE - in funding, leasing armour, planes, weapons, in raising credit to fund Stalin, in protecting British and russian convoys, in war bonds, in propoganda production before youve even mentioned the direct military involvement, which from North Africa to the invasion of D Day and into Germany and from the island hopping into japan was phenomenal - go read some history books - or if thats too much for you - at least sit down and watch "world at war"!!!

[moskito]

Isn't it a pity some euro politician didn't pass a law banning American intervention in WWI and WWII. But of course, reciprocity is a hard word to translate. Just be thankful you don't have to finish your post with "Seig Heil".

Isn't it a pity that a law has not been enacted that prevents ignoramuses perpetuating the myth that the US saved Europe from subjugation by Hitler and his bullies. Those in touch with reality would give much of the credit to the Russians - and a handful of British, Commonwealth and European fighter pilots - for that.    

You obviously get your version of history from Hollywood aka a dreamworld. 

Isnt ANY other nation better than the f....g germans which were worth to bomb then into stoneage? Churchill is my hero, a man who never failed, at least not in supporting the economy. Anyway, finally the f....g germans won, at least the economy race, thanks to your bomber pilots which killed millions of civilians from above just by dropping bombs on Berlin, Hamburg or Dresden for example....anyway, lets not forget, just f...g germans. Good the English have never made any sh1t in other countries like their own.

BTW, nice BBC article about Wikileaks about Cluster bombs and the (still) lying English bunch of... ..or should we call them parliament? But Bout was jailed? Why arent them too?

Dropped from the air or fired from the ground, cluster munitions release small bomblets over a wide area. Critics say they have a devastating humanitarian impact - most victims are civilians; a third are children.

Britain was among more than 90 countries which signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM) in December 2008. The treaty bans the use of cluster bombs and prohibits signatories from assisting other countries to use, stockpile or transfer them.

Full Article from BBC News UK allowed US to use cluster bomb

Anyway, the 1st and 2nd WW is close to 100 years ago so lets go on...or should we talk about other nations and their crimes against humanity?

[yumidesign]

Bad luck Russia. Obviously America's bribes were bigger than yours.

OK, smart-ass, let's see your proof that the US bribed/coerced anyone to hand over Bout. Or are you just another one of the "Bash the US Because It's Fashionable and I Want To Be With the Cool Crowd of Ultra-Politically Correct/Nanny State Types"???

.

My Buddha which century are you in!

[geriatrickid]

Bad luck Russia. Obviously America's bribes were bigger than yours.

OK, smart-ass, let's see your proof that the US bribed/coerced anyone to hand over Bout. Or are you just another one of the "Bash the US Because It's Fashionable and I Want To Be With the Cool Crowd of Ultra-Politically Correct/Nanny State Types"???

.

My Buddha which century are you in!

Well, did the USA bribe or coerce anyone in the Bout affair? I do not think so. Do you you have evidence otherwise?

[SomTumTiger]

The world is a better place, knowing that the barstool historians are here, protecting the US's honor about an event that happened 70 years ago. :jap:, and is not Thailand related.

[SergeiY]

Bad luck Russia. Obviously America's bribes were bigger than yours.

OK, smart-ass, let's see your proof that the US bribed/coerced anyone to hand over Bout. Or are you just another one of the "Bash the US Because It's Fashionable and I Want To Be With the Cool Crowd of Ultra-Politically Correct/Nanny State Types"???

.

My Buddha which century are you in!

Well, did the USA bribe or coerce anyone in the Bout affair? I do not think so. Do you you have evidence otherwise?

Well, have you evidence that Russia did? I do not think so.

pfff

[jayboy]

Isn't it a pity some euro politician didn't pass a law banning American intervention in WWI and WWII. But of course, reciprocity is a hard word to translate. Just be thankful you don't have to finish your post with "Seig Heil".

Isn't it a pity that a law has not been enacted that prevents ignoramuses perpetuating the myth that the US saved Europe from subjugation by Hitler and his bullies. Those in touch with reality would give much of the credit to the Russians - and a handful of British, Commonwealth and European fighter pilots - for that.

You obviously get your version of history from Hollywood aka a dreamworld.

NOT TRUE - the part the US played in the 2nd world war was HUGE - in funding, leasing armour, planes, weapons, in raising credit to fund Stalin, in protecting British and russian convoys, in war bonds, in propoganda production before youve even mentioned the direct military involvement, which from North Africa to the invasion of D Day and into Germany and from the island hopping into japan was phenomenal - go read some history books - or if thats too much for you - at least sit down and watch "world at war"!!!

It was huge as you suggest.But it was not decisive.That role belongs squarely to Russia.

[whybother]

Well, did the USA bribe or coerce anyone in the Bout affair? I do not think so. Do you you have evidence otherwise?

Well, have you evidence that Russia did? I do not think so.

pfff

The title of the thread is Wikileaks alleged Russia bribed Bout witnesses.

Are their any wikileaks that suggest that the US did any bribing?

Edited December 3, 2010 by whybother

[OzMick]

Isn't it a pity some euro politician didn't pass a law banning American intervention in WWI and WWII. But of course, reciprocity is a hard word to translate. Just be thankful you don't have to finish your post with "Seig Heil".

Isn't it a pity that a law has not been enacted that prevents ignoramuses perpetuating the myth that the US saved Europe from subjugation by Hitler and his bullies. Those in touch with reality would give much of the credit to the Russians - and a handful of British, Commonwealth and European fighter pilots - for that.

You obviously get your version of history from Hollywood aka a dreamworld.

Isnt ANY other nation better than the f....g germans which were worth to bomb then into stoneage? Churchill is my hero, a man who never failed, at least not in supporting the economy. Anyway, finally the f....g germans won, at least the economy race, thanks to your bomber pilots which killed millions of civilians from above just by dropping bombs on Berlin, Hamburg or Dresden for example....anyway, lets not forget, just f...g germans. Good the English have never made any sh1t in other countries like their own.

BTW, nice BBC article about Wikileaks about Cluster bombs and the (still) lying English bunch of... ..or should we call them parliament? But Bout was jailed? Why arent them too?

Dropped from the air or fired from the ground, cluster munitions release small bomblets over a wide area. Critics say they have a devastating humanitarian impact - most victims are civilians; a third are children.

Britain was among more than 90 countries which signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM) in December 2008. The treaty bans the use of cluster bombs and prohibits signatories from assisting other countries to use, stockpile or transfer them.

Full Article from BBC News UK allowed US to use cluster bomb

Anyway, the 1st and 2nd WW is close to 100 years ago so lets go on...or should we talk about other nations and their crimes against humanity?

Here comes that reciprocity word again. Before the bombings of Hamburg, Dresden.............. there was a thing called the Blitz, then V-1 and V-2; v was for Vengeance not victory, because they already knew they were toast.

And you know, after the first few concentration camps were liberated, sympathy for Germans was a bit hard to find. Strange that.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

It does - vaguely - amuse me to see so many throw their rattles out of the cradle at any slight against America, yet daily postings on ThaiVisa about ignorant Thais, typical Thais, corrupt Thais, TIT, third world country Thailand, everyone is bribable and other pretty dam_n offensive generalisations about the country we live in seem to be par for the course. Double standard? But no, that term is only reserved for the Democrats and elites right?

I am Thai and while I do find many of the scating quips about Thailand annoying, this is a forum, most people here have ranted about something or another and America does have a fair amount to answer for, having read up on some of these WikiLeaks...

Just my tuppence.

[SergeiY]

Well, did the USA bribe or coerce anyone in the Bout affair? I do not think so. Do you you have evidence otherwise?

Well, have you evidence that Russia did? I do not think so.

pfff

The title of the thread is Wikileaks alleged Russia bribed Bout witnesses.

Are their any wikileaks that suggest that the US did any bribing?

Well, the thread title doesn't make one of the two statements or allegation USA bribed ... or Russia bribed ... more or less credible than the other nor is it much of piece of evidence.

And actually its a wikileak that alleged or seems to suggest that the USA alleged Russia paid some bribes.

The USA or ambassador John will never verify the authenticity of these cables and admit that the really came from them.

If you think they are authentic, than is it in that case still just an allegation by the USA and far from being any evidence that Russia actually did some bribes. The leak only reveals was The USamericans think.

Do you understand that?

Edited December 3, 2010 by SergeiY

[katasyd]

I hear there is some pretty juicy stuff about the red shirt uprising last year and the players involved.

Eric John might want to get out of dodge before the LM laws catch up with him.

[SergeiY]

I hear there is some pretty juicy stuff about the red shirt uprising last year and the players involved.

Eric John might want to get out of dodge before the LM laws catch up with him.

You heard it where?

If a court in Thailand would ever accept these leaks as evidence the defense would probably be that these cables are not authentic.

[george]

UPDATE:

WikiLeaks website again offline after company cuts DNS service

Full story:

[whybother]

I hear there is some pretty juicy stuff about the red shirt uprising last year and the players involved.

Eric John might want to get out of dodge before the LM laws catch up with him.

You heard it where?

If a court in Thailand would ever accept these leaks as evidence the defense would probably be that these cables are not authentic.

I'm beginning to think that you are 3 or 4 personas, not just the English speaking one and the non-English speaking one.

2 posts ago you were suggesting the cables were not authentic and that they were far from being evidence.

[TPI]

Bad luck Russia. Obviously America's bribes were bigger than yours.

OK, smart-ass, let's see your proof that the US bribed/coerced anyone to hand over Bout. Or are you just another one of the "Bash the US Because It's Fashionable and I Want To Be With the Cool Crowd of Ultra-Politically Correct/Nanny State Types"???

Gosh! If you were to read #14 then you might climb off your high horse. Pick up your hand bag and go home, the guy was merely expressing an opinion! "Right wing", "Left wing" or "center" he didn't need your flame.

[whybother]

WikiLeaks website again offline after company cuts DNS service

Excellent. Thanks ICT. Don't forget to summon all those who try to get access.

Nothing to do with the ICT ... this time.

[SergeiY]

I hear there is some pretty juicy stuff about the red shirt uprising last year and the players involved.

Eric John might want to get out of dodge before the LM laws catch up with him.

You heard it where?

If a court in Thailand would ever accept these leaks as evidence the defense would probably be that these cables are not authentic.

I'm beginning to think that you are 3 or 4 personas, not just the English speaking one and the non-English speaking one.

2 posts ago you were suggesting the cables were not authentic and that they were far from being evidence.

What you are talking about?

I said that when wikileaks published a cable from the US ambassador where the content of this cable suggest a possible bribe by Russia that this isn't any evidence that Russia did any bribes.

It would be different when wikileaks published a cable from the Russian ambassador where the Russian ambassador talking about to do some bribes, but that wasn't the case. there isn't any cable from the Russian side leaked.

And here, if some Thai court or anyone else would try to sue Ambassador John because the content of a cable published on wikileaks, Ambassador John would just say that cable isn't authentic and its fake.

Is that really so hard to understand for you?

What could happen in such a case is that someone from wikileaks get in problem with the Thai courts regarding in LM, because they published something that is considered as LM.

Same as Sondhi get in problems for repeating all the bad words and statements that brought Da torpedo in trouble.

[AsiaCheese]

It does - vaguely - amuse me to see so many throw their rattles out of the cradle at any slight against America, yet daily postings on ThaiVisa about ignorant Thais, typical Thais, corrupt Thais, TIT, third world country Thailand, everyone is bribable and other pretty dam_n offensive generalisations about the country we live in seem to be par for the course. Double standard? But no, that term is only reserved for the Democrats and elites right?

I am Thai and while I do find many of the scating quips about Thailand annoying, this is a forum, most people here have ranted about something or another and America does have a fair amount to answer for, having read up on some of these WikiLeaks...

Just my tuppence.

Well, let's just put it this way: the world is infested with rats. There are differences in density, size, appetite, methodoligy and visibility, but they're there. You're right, generalisations won't get anyone anywhere (except maybe some red-clad self-proclaimed leaders preaching to the choir -- oops, just threw in my own generalisation). But then, as always, there are certain truths to old-wive tales as well... Some smoke without a fire, but usually the fires are there.

[craigt3365]

It does - vaguely - amuse me to see so many throw their rattles out of the cradle at any slight against America, yet daily postings on ThaiVisa about ignorant Thais, typical Thais, corrupt Thais, TIT, third world country Thailand, everyone is bribable and other pretty dam_n offensive generalisations about the country we live in seem to be par for the course. Double standard? But no, that term is only reserved for the Democrats and elites right?

I am Thai and while I do find many of the scating quips about Thailand annoying, this is a forum, most people here have ranted about something or another and America does have a fair amount to answer for, having read up on some of these WikiLeaks...

Just my tuppence.

Well put. Don't be afraid to stand your ground. No country in the world is perfect. Every one has it's warts. And many of us here on TV love Thailand and love the Thai people. You have a fantastic country that is developing into an ever better one. Patience is the key word.

I doubt the US does anything different than any other diplomatic corps, and probably is more above board than most. It's all part of the game. The US is just more visible, and more active...for better or worse!

[LaoPo]

Isn't it a pity some euro politician didn't pass a law banning American intervention in WWI and WWII. But of course, reciprocity is a hard word to translate. Just be thankful you don't have to finish your post with "Seig Heil".

How silly to bring up 2 wars which were 95/100 and 65/70 years ago.

Would you like to give me your bank account details ? Would you accept any foreign nation diving into ALL bank details from all citizens ? Give me a break.

And, no need to insult other members with your below-the-belt attack and getting personal with a Nazi-style remark ; it's against forum rules.

LaoPo

HOW SILLY OF YOU not to recognize both the relevance and the pertinence of the point raised - go read some history books if you want to see whats happening now - problem is you and your sort dont wat to FACE FACTS!! OH and his reference to Nazis as a warning, does not break forum rules any more than the rubbish that you post in reply unfortunately doesnt!. The world is quick to decry the west - except when they need help from it!!

To what sort do you belong, not able to debate in a civilized manner ? Neanderthal ?

If you want facts, read the documents, written by certain Governments and published by WikiLeaks.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Why have another 1800 sites been blocked in Thailand also ??Apparently in the interests of 'national security'..Protecting who??

Where did you get that number?

By the mid of last June the number was already over 113,000 blacklisted websites in Thailand, being the first country in the world surpassing the 100,000 goal.

Google is your friend.

LaoPo

NOT TRUE - In Saudi and Kuwait the internet is TOTALLY censored!! ove 5,000,000 sites - even jazz sites that have the word "sextet" are unreachable - get your facts right!!

Happy I was wrong; that's a good postive thing for Thailand, not to be the number 1 in censor land.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

It does - vaguely - amuse me to see so many throw their rattles out of the cradle at any slight against America, yet daily postings on ThaiVisa about ignorant Thais, typical Thais, corrupt Thais, TIT, third world country Thailand, everyone is bribable and other pretty dam_n offensive generalisations about the country we live in seem to be par for the course. Double standard? But no, that term is only reserved for the Democrats and elites right?

I am Thai and while I do find many of the scating quips about Thailand annoying, this is a forum, most people here have ranted about something or another and America does have a fair amount to answer for, having read up on some of these WikiLeaks...

Just my tuppence.

Wise words

LaoPo