Buddhist Texts

[chownah]

I have read alot of the Bible having been raised by active Christian parents. But since I am no longer Christian but I do believe that Jesus was an informed if not enlightened teacher I still benefit by thinking and reading about what he said as it is written in the Bible. It is my understanding that the Buddhist texts that would make up the equivalent of the Bible would fill a large book case. I would like to find out what Buddha said and wrote if he did write and it has survived. I'm not looking for how people have interpreted this (except of course for it being translated into English) or what the ramifications might be....I just want to read the message straight from the horses mouth so to speak no insult intended. And of course I'm talking about G. Buddha, the first one I guess, the one that was born a prince. So can someone tell me how difficult it will be to find this. Is there one book or collection of books containing this or are his words scattered throughout the myriad of texts that fill the book case of Buddhism?

[Guest endure]

You might want to get a copy of the Dhammapada which is often reagarded as the Buddhist equivalent of The Sermon on the Mount. I've found Eknath Easwaran's translation to very good:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...282554?v=glance

[sabaijai]

I have read alot of the Bible having been raised by active Christian parents.  But since I am no longer Christian but I do believe that Jesus was an informed if not enlightened teacher  I still benefit by thinking and reading about what he said as it is written in the Bible.  It is my understanding that the Buddhist texts that would make up the equivalent of the Bible would fill a large book case.  I would like to find out what Buddha said and wrote if he did write and it has survived.  I'm not looking for how people have interpreted this (except of course for it being translated into English) or what the ramifications might be....I just want to read the message straight from the horses mouth so to speak no insult intended.  And of course I'm talking about G. Buddha, the first one I guess, the one that was born a prince.  So can someone tell me how difficult it will be to find this.  Is there one book or collection of books containing this or are his words scattered throughout the myriad of texts that fill the book case of Buddhism?

The Access to Insight website (see link below) has an outline of the Pali Canon, with modern translations of more than 900 important suttas, all indexed by sutta name, subject, proper names, and similes. As far as I know it's the most complete online source for the Pali canon.

Tipitaka

According to Access to Insight, "The Pali Text Society's edition of the Tipitaka (English translation) fills over 12,000 pages in approximately fifty hardbound volumes, taking up about five linear feet of shelf space, and costing about US$2,000."

[chownah]

I have read alot of the Bible having been raised by active Christian parents.  But since I am no longer Christian but I do believe that Jesus was an informed if not enlightened teacher  I still benefit by thinking and reading about what he said as it is written in the Bible.  It is my understanding that the Buddhist texts that would make up the equivalent of the Bible would fill a large book case.  I would like to find out what Buddha said and wrote if he did write and it has survived.  I'm not looking for how people have interpreted this (except of course for it being translated into English) or what the ramifications might be....I just want to read the message straight from the horses mouth so to speak no insult intended.  And of course I'm talking about G. Buddha, the first one I guess, the one that was born a prince.  So can someone tell me how difficult it will be to find this.  Is there one book or collection of books containing this or are his words scattered throughout the myriad of texts that fill the book case of Buddhism?

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The Access to Insight website (see link below) has an outline of the Pali Canon, with modern translations of more than 900 important suttas, all indexed by sutta name, subject, proper names, and similes. As far as I know it's the most complete online source for the Pali canon.

Tipitaka

According to Access to Insight, "The Pali Text Society's edition of the Tipitaka (English translation) fills over 12,000 pages in approximately fifty hardbound volumes, taking up about five linear feet of shelf space, and costing about US$2,000."

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Does this mean that the Buddha spoke or wrote 12,000 pages of text? I guess I'm glad he wasn't a poster!!! All joking aside....if you want to read everything that has been recorded that the Buddha said you have to read 12,000 pages? I think I'll start with the Dhammapada first...is it part of the Tipitaka or is it in addition to?

[chownah]

I have read alot of the Bible having been raised by active Christian parents.  But since I am no longer Christian but I do believe that Jesus was an informed if not enlightened teacher  I still benefit by thinking and reading about what he said as it is written in the Bible.  It is my understanding that the Buddhist texts that would make up the equivalent of the Bible would fill a large book case.  I would like to find out what Buddha said and wrote if he did write and it has survived.  I'm not looking for how people have interpreted this (except of course for it being translated into English) or what the ramifications might be....I just want to read the message straight from the horses mouth so to speak no insult intended.  And of course I'm talking about G. Buddha, the first one I guess, the one that was born a prince.  So can someone tell me how difficult it will be to find this.  Is there one book or collection of books containing this or are his words scattered throughout the myriad of texts that fill the book case of Buddhism?

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The Access to Insight website (see link below) has an outline of the Pali Canon, with modern translations of more than 900 important suttas, all indexed by sutta name, subject, proper names, and similes. As far as I know it's the most complete online source for the Pali canon.

Tipitaka

According to Access to Insight, "The Pali Text Society's edition of the Tipitaka (English translation) fills over 12,000 pages in approximately fifty hardbound volumes, taking up about five linear feet of shelf space, and costing about US$2,000."

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I went to the website and I'm impressed. I read one of the long suttas. It had quite a bit of text other than what Buddha said but it was mostly a conversation among two or three people so it contained the other members of the conversation and naturally this helps in the understanding. The footnote system they have works really great too. This will take some time.......don't suppose Reader Digest....probably not.

[sabaijai]

As you've probably sussed already if you've gone to Access to Insight, the Dhammapada is part of the Khuddaka Nikaya, or Collection of Little Texts, in the Suttas, one basket or pitaka in the Tipitaka. There's enough on that website to keep most folks busy for a lifetime.

[Abandon]

Through comparing the theravada texts with the chinese theravada texts (as there were some 17 theravada schools at one time) we can see how close to the original the current texts are. The Digha (long discourses) and the Majjhima (middle lenght discourses) are the most congruent, and the abhidhammas of the schools are totally different.(anyone interested I can mail the full analysis and comparisons).

The scriptures were transmitted orally, and though many were likely written down, the oral tradition was the means of record. There are some advantages to the oral transmission method.

It was part of the culture, and Indians were very skilled at learning verbatim long passages.

the various sections of the suttas would be recited by different groups who would then go and recite their parts to other groups, hence the same topics are covered over and over again.

If someone makes a mistake, they hear that they are out of sync with the other monks, and so correct themselves. written records, also record mistakes when the book gets copied

fire, flood, and rot does not affect written records.

in fact, the scriptures were only written down in entirity long after the Buddha by Buddhagosa (a sri Lankan monk) who feared the theravada school would be destroyed by the unfavourable situation in Sri Lanka.

the suttas were written in repetitive style for ease of memorising

chanting them brings them closer to the mind than merely haveing read them in a book.

All this, and the closeness of many suttas with geographically and chronologically seperate records of some suttas in chinese and tibetan, suggests that the record we have is very accurate as the true Buddha-word

[Mr. Farang]

Buddhist Thought is quite different than many "Western" religions because in Buddhism, the condition of learning is primarily by self-observation (Meditation). The various texts serve to augment and reinforce observations from meditation and provide "guideposts" as to what to observe - created my men who loved the Buddha so much that they devoted lifetimes to record his teachings.

All of this is toward a life which is characterized by increasing "Wisdom" "Compassion" and "Purity" helped along by respect for the Buddha, his Teachings (the Dharma), and the Monks who practice hard (the Sangha) - often called "The Triple Gems".

In Western religions, the "Word of God" is often debated endlessly. Sometimes this happens in Buddhism, but the Buddha discouraged this type of debate, teaching his followers to observe the Dharma via Meditation (and not waste precious time debating ideas and concepts which distract from following the Eight Fold Path.)

Volumes of Buddhist though and the Buddhas teaching are available to each person, and the ability to grasp and comprehend the Dharma are often compared to the four stages of the situation of a Lotus Flower:

(1) A Lotus Flower situated just below the surface of the water, easily receiving the Light of the Dharma, and so situated, readily Enlightened by the Dharma.

(2) A Lotus Flower situated deeper in the water that can also receive the Light of the Dharma, requiring considerable more effort than the Lotus Flower just below the surface of the water.

(3) A Lotus Flower situated very deep in the water that can receive the Dharma, but the Light of the Dharma does not have much effect on one so situated, requiring considerable more effort and time than the Lotus Flowers situated above.

(4) A Lotus Flower situated so deep in the murky water that the Light of the Dharma has little to no effect - and the budding flower is eaten by other bottom dwellers (like turtles and other bottom dwelling fish) representing the situation of strong attachment to the worldly condition, selfishness, sensual desires, etc.

I have heard Thais joke about the "Fifth Level" which is "below the concrete " in the bottom of the pond when recounting this lesson (this is sometimes used, unfortunately, as an insult to people who act so orthogonal to "Wisdom" "Compassion" and "Purity".)

My only point in this reply is to begin to demonstrate that it matters not if the Buddha taught the lesson above, directly or indirectly. The point is moot because from meditation and observation one can (depending on one's Kamma-situation in the analogy above) see the Analogy of the Lotus Flower is, indeed, accurate. In other words, the Buddha encourage his followers to learm for themselves, not from texts or written words.

All things are conditioned, including the recorded text of the Buddha and it serves no purpose in the practice (of Theravada) Buddhism to debate the state of conditioned things. Time is better spent in developing Mindfulness from the Right Concentration (ususally from Meditation) following The Eight Fold Path.

Wisdom - Compassion - Purity

Edited September 6, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[Kido]

Interesting website and free of charge to learn more about Buddha

http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebidx.htm

[Mr. Farang]

Interesting website and free of charge to learn more about Buddha

http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebidx.htm

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Interesting Thanks!

I practiced as a monk and much of my studies were at Wat Suan Mokkh, of this link in your post:

http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/budasa-h...ok/budasa00.htm

Fortunately and graciously, I spent some time with Buddhadasa Bhikkhu the year before he passed away (around 1992 as I recall), studying in meditation alone in the forests around Suan Mokkh, far away from the crowds and workshops.

Thank you for your link which reminded me of these wonderful days of my life.

[bankei]

I beleive not all of the Tipitaka is claimed to be words of the Buddha. There are a few books which are obviously of a later date, such as the Katthavattu (part of the Abidhamma). As mentioned above, it is the Abdhidhamma that differs most between the different schools, and therefore we can probably assume that this was developed separately after the splitting of the schools.

The Vinaya also differs between the various schools, though not as much as the Abhidhamma.

Personally I would focus on reading Suttas as these are most likely to be the closest thing we have to the words of the Buddha.

[camerata]

There is an essay on the authenticity of the Pali suttas by Thanissaro Bhikkhu at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...thenticity.html.

[Mr. Farang]

There is an essay on the authenticity of the Pali suttas by Thanissaro Bhikkhu at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...thenticity.html.

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Khun Camerata,

Excellent Essay!! Thank you very much for posting this link!

"Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These dhammas are unskillful; these dhammas are blameworthy; these dhammas are criticized by the wise; these dhammas, when adopted and carried out, lead to harm and to suffering' -- then you should abandon them... When you know for yourselves that, 'These dhammas are skillful; these dhammas are blameless; these dhammas are praised by the wise; these dhammas, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness' -- then you should enter and remain in them." [AN III.65]

[Mr. Farang]

There is an essay on the authenticity of the Pali suttas by Thanissaro Bhikkhu at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...thenticity.html.

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Dear Camerata,

I printed and read, in its entirety, the essay by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. This was truely excellent, thank you again. There are many nuggets of wisdom in this essay. I liked the entire essay, and today, this passage seems appropriate to ponder:

The process of pondering, weighing, and comparing the teachings is based on adopting the right attitude and asking the right questions about them. As AN II.25 points out, some of the teachings are meant to have their meaning inferred, whereas others are not, and to misapprehend which of these two classes a particular teaching belongs to is a serious mistake. This is where the next factor for stream-entry plays a role.

Appropriate attention. MN 2 draws the line between appropriate and inappropriate attention on the basis of the questions you choose to pursue in contemplating the Dhamma.

    "There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person... doesn't discern what ideas are fit for attention, or what ideas are unfit for attention... This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

    "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true and established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true and established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine -- the knower that is sensitive here and there to the ripening of good and bad actions -- is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from stress.

    "The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones... discerns what ideas are fit for attention, and what ideas are unfit for attention... He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: self-identity views, doubt, and grasping at precepts and practices." [MN 2]Some of the most useless controversies in the history of Buddhist thought have come from ignoring this teaching on what is and is not an appropriate object for attention. Buddhists have debated fruitlessly for centuries, and continue to debate today, on how to define a person's identity -- the answer to the question, "What am I?" -- or whether a person does or doesn't have a self -- the answer to the questions, "Am I? Am I not?" The fruitlessness of these arguments has proven repeatedly the point made by this passage: that any answer to these questions leads to entanglement in the fetters that the Dhamma is meant to cut away.

To avoid these controversies, the passage recommends focusing on four truths that constitute the appropriate object for attention -- stress, its origination, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. These truths are directly related to the question of skillfulness, which divides reality into two sets of variables: cause and effect, skillful and unskillful. The origination of stress is an unskillful cause, and stress its result. The way leading to the cessation of stress is a skillful cause, and the cessation of stress its result. To look at experience in these terms is to attend appropriately in a way that can help cut the fetters underlying unskillfulness in the mind.

When I read this I am so thankful that I have been trained to practice Mindfulness, and to be so situation to be a student of Buddhist practice. In the essay, I was also touched by this section:

Association with people of integrity. Because the Dhamma consists primarily of qualities of the mind, any written account of the Dhamma is only a pale shadow of the real thing. Thus, to gain a sense of the Dhamma's full dimensions, you must find people who embody the Dhamma in their thoughts, words, and deeds, and associate with them in a way that enables you to absorb as much of the Dhamma as possible. The passages explaining this factor thus offer advice in two areas: how to recognize people of integrity and how best to associate with them once you have found them.

The immediate sign of integrity is gratitude.

    "A person of integrity is grateful and acknowledges the help given to him. This gratitude, this acknowledgment is second nature among admirable people. It is entirely on the level of people of integrity." [AN II.31]Gratitude is a necessary sign of integrity in that people who do not recognize and value the goodness and integrity in others are unlikely to make the effort to develop integrity within themselves. On its own, though, gratitude doesn't constitute integrity. The essence of integrity lies in three qualities: truth, harmlessness, and discernment.

    "There is the case where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities -- qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on greed... aversion... delusion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm and pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities... His bodily and verbal behavior are those of one not greedy... aversive... deluded. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise." [MN 95]

As this passage shows, knowledge of a person's truthfulness requires that you be so observant of his or her behavior that you can confidently infer the quality of his or her mind. This level of confidence, in turn, requires that you not only be observant, but also discerning and willing to take time, for as another passage points out, the appearance of spiritual integrity is easy to fake.

[camerata]

Most of Thanissaro Bhikkhu's stuff is still on my to-read list, but what I've read and heard so far has impressed me and helped me a lot. He's very good at interpreting the scriptures.

[Abandon]

Most of Thanissaro Bhikkhu's stuff is still on my to-read list, but what I've read and heard so far has impressed me and helped me a lot. He's very good at interpreting the scriptures.

yes, me too

[bina]

hi folks,

i know there are a few lists we've made of 'what books u reccommend' etc, but:

1. my computer never allows me to use the search in thai visa;

2. i get a sort of 'shopping center' daze when confronted with too many choices when i can only choose two...

i will be shopping in some gigantic bookstore in boston in three weeks-- this is my once in six years chance to buy some good books that arent starring jerusalem, so, if u had limited money and could only buy a few books, which ones should be THE BOOKS to buy???

what will happen is that i wont know what to buy so i wont buy anything and i will leave the store with a massive migraine to boot....so, teachers, teach and recommend........

bina

[Abandon]

I couldn't tell you what books are about at the moment, but some authors who are reliably good ( though you don't tell us if you want begineers stuff, general stuff, or specific Theravada, or scriptural based texts)

Ajahn Sumedho

Ajahn Amaro

Jack Kornfield

Joseph Goldstein

Some Classics:

Autobiography of a Yogi (Swarmi Prahmanasa Yogananda)

I Am That (Nisargadatta)

Krishnamurthi

Life as a Siamese Monk (Richard Randall)

Interior Castle (St Teresa d'Avila)

Cloud of Unknowing (Christian Text)

But there are lots more of ocurse.....

[camerata]

I would recommend Eight Mindful Steps to Happiness by Henepola Gunaratana and The Mind and the Way by Ajahn Sumedho. If you want something by a female writer (not that it makes any difference), try Being Nobody, Going Nowhere by Ayya Kema.

[bina]

the mind and the way seems to appear often on the different threads

i guess theravada beginner general would be the classification

also, are there versions of the ramakien in english (the thai version that is)??

[Bakuteh]

the mind and the way seems to appear often on the different threads

i guess theravada beginner general would be the classification

also, are there versions of the ramakien in english (the thai version that is)??

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Greetings Bina

One place you can view the English translation of Ramakien, online is: http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Thai/literature...an/ramakian.htm

Found it when I searched in Google. It appears to be a well designed site with line by line translation and even has a voice read feature.

Hope you find it useful.

Best wishes, Bakuteh.

[bina]

thanx i'd forgotten their site, they have a very good site for southeast asia in general; actually i wanted a book, it seems like the sort of thing that has to be read in a book or even read out loud if u know what i mean....

[Auntie Dah]

Yes, this is a very good one.

Edited October 19, 2005 by Auntie Dah