Facing Corruption Attempt During Import Process

[Mitker]

Hello,

Our company is facing a corruption attempt during the import process of a container in Thailand.

At this stage it is not clear if the attempt is made by the customs officials or the shipping agent.

Our container is blocked while extra money is asked by e-mail.

Our company has a zero tolerance toward corruption and we are decided to confront them.

We are thus looking for a lawyer in Bangkok who could assist us in this matter, actually somebody who shares our vision on the topic.

We know the typical reaction is: "TIT, just pay the extra and forget it, you gonna loose time and money in this".

But we don't see it that way. We operate for several years in Thailand and never paid a single THB to a corrupt official or other similar. We don't plan to start now. Our policy.

Even if it costs us money and time, we don't want to be part of this scheme.

Thus, if anyone has a lawyer with the adequate vision to recommend, we would be grateful.

It is quite urgent since we will meet the customs early next week and the first contact will be decisive.

Ideally, the lawyer (or similar profile) should have some experience or knowledge about custom process.

And if you have been through the same path, we would like you sharing (even by pm). Thanks.

Positive or informative replies welcome. :jap:

Have great week-end.

[phaethon]

(seriously...) Good Luck

I posted a photo of a campaign ad, more as a joke because of it's location and use of English, in another thread, but but maybe this guy, or someone like him is looking for a cause or can advise...?

Just a thought.

[saintofsilence]

this may help also

http://www.thailand-shipping-maritime-lawfirm.com/

http://www.noppramart-lawyer.com/

Edited December 4, 2010 by saintofsilence

[Mitker]

(seriously...) Good Luck

I posted a photo of a campaign ad, more as a joke because of it's location and use of English, in another thread, but but maybe this guy, or someone like him is looking for a cause or can advise...?

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4065391

Just a thought.

Indeed, the location made it quite ironic but knowing who he's working for... looks like plain make up here.

[Mitker]

this may help also

http://www.thailand-...me-lawfirm.com/

http://www.noppramart-lawyer.com/

Thanks. I'll check that. :jap:

Had a look at it. They seems more business issues oriented than administrative. But I need to contact them to feel the true "spirit".

Edited December 4, 2010 by Mitker

[saintofsilence]

this may help also

http://www.thailand-...me-lawfirm.com/

http://www.noppramart-lawyer.com/

Thanks. I'll check that. :jap:

Had a look at it. They seems more business issues oriented than administrative. But I need to contact them to feel the true "spirit".

I read about the Noppramart lawyer somewhere on this board but not sure where but she was recommended by someone else.

[CWMcMurray]

My question is... What is your forwarder saying is the reason why Thai customs is asking for a under the table payment?

Are they advising that there is something incorrect in your paperwork?

I applaud your commitment not to bow to corruption, but you also may want to make sure that all your ducks are in a row.... otherwise you may find out that you have a pretty big problem on your hands...

[klauswernst198]

First rule to make business in Thailand is not to piss one anyone who is bigger than you.

Second rule is This is Thailand and you should behave and act like Thais.

So In the first place you should really analyze if you wanna take the risk. Because you might win this case and get your container without paying anything. But later all the official who got in trouble because of you will tell all their friends about your company and things get more and more complicated. Remember specialy for Thai government official everything is connections so they all know a lot of people. So you will notice after a while that official papers you gave to other official disappear and things which should take a days take months. Also expect that for taxes and work permit issues you might suddenly find out that everything is much stricter and they are looking for any tiny mistakes to make you have a problem.

My suggestion is think about the risks first. because once you start this way you can't turn back the time when you start to realize in what wasp nest you just stuck you nose in. I know 2 cases of foreign business owners who took the risk and finally their business got broke due to this and they left Thailand with nearly nothing.

If you still it is worth risking your business for a little bit of tea money I wish you got luck

[ksamuiguy]

Experience with a similar issue, and I was lucky as I did act like a Thai.

Some years ago 1999 I had some used computer parts sent to me, not much value, the duty was 0. my clearing agent called and gave me a price to get the goods out of customs. It was not expensive, but I "got on my high horse" and decided not to pay and clear the shipment my self.

I had contacts in high places so they gave me names and introductions. So I started the process, after 4 days of stamps, papers, stamps, waiting and waiting I finally had the paperwork, which was 20% higher than my clearing agent was quoted.

I made an appointment with the Head of Custom at the (unnamed location) I was received cordially and offered coffee. We had an amiable chat, a few question about my business, I was vague, he than asked whet he could do for me. I showed him the paper work he said everything was in order, I asked why I was charged duty on non-duty items.

He again said the paper work was OK, knowing when it is best to shut up and leave, I was going to make a hasty exit, he called me back and said "see those books over there" yes, "get the last book out and open it to the last page" I did "please read the last line"

it said " Final Customs duties and charges are up to the digression of the Customs Officer".

I left paid the bill, the box was deposited in my truck (never had been opened).

Trust me I will never contest the customs charges or decisions again.

This was a sobering experience and a great learning experience.

[Pria]

You could give this guy a try: Bonchoo Yensabai boonchoo (at)boonchoo-counselor.com 081 823 7379

He's a very senior and straight Thai lawyer and is highly recommended by Thais in business.

I've had no personal dealings with him but some of out Thai clients in Bangkok recommend him highly.

I also gather that he is not cheap.

Edited May 26, 2011 by sbk

[whybother]

"Final Customs duties and charges are up to the discretion of the Customs Officer".

That's the biggest problem with the "law" in Thailand isn't it.

[asiawatcher]

I suggest you contact LGP Law - part of the Atherton Group. Ed Kelly senior partner Asia and extremely well credentialled at the highest levels if you get my drift.

http://www.lgpatlaw.com/articles/id/73

[mrgreg]

My suggestion is think about the risks first.

I think Mitker knows very well what the risks are as his company operate for several years in Thailand.

While your arguments may be true, it also can be pure speculation. Who knows what will happen next?

I'm actually happy to see that fear does not affect everybody in Thailand.

I wish him good luck and hope he will give us a feedback after...

All the best to you Mitker!!

[fstarbkk]

Good for you and your company, Mitker, for having the courage to do things the right way, instead of the easy way. If more people had the means and the courage to do business with integrity in Thailand, corrupt officials and politicians might get the message that it's time to consider doing the same. Every single person and company who chooses this thorny road makes an important point and thus makes it a little bit easier for others. Hats off to you!

[klauswernst198]

Good for you and your company, Mitker, for having the courage to do things the right way, instead of the easy way. If more people had the means and the courage to do business with integrity in Thailand, corrupt officials and politicians might get the message that it's time to consider doing the same. Every single person and company who chooses this thorny road makes an important point and thus makes it a little bit easier for others. Hats off to you!

Fighting Corruption in Thailand is like the battle of Iwo Jima, Eventually the battle will be won. But there will be a lot of dead on the way. And I don't want to be one of them.

If your business get bankrupt due to fighting against the injustice in Thailand. It will not help you at all that in the far future corruption is eliminated in Thailand and you did a tiny part for this. Because you are still bankrupt.

Edited December 5, 2010 by klauswernst198

[Indo-Siam]

To the OP: If you are being asked to pay money in a way that will not show up on a deductible receipt - either the yellow Customs receipt, or the clearance broker's receipt - the maybe you have an issue.

If you are fighting an amount that shows up in a line item called "Customs formality," then you are wasting your time. Customs can charge you for research into your case, and no one can question that decision.

If you are arguing about import duty, and the item you are importing is anything other than an item which exactly and precisely matches the Thai nomenclature for a specific Harmonized System code (you can check this at: http://www.customs.go.th/Tariff/Tariff.jsp), then you are again wasting your time. For any item that requires subjective interpretation to apply an applicable HS code, that is at the discretion of Customs. Example: You import fertilizer. It can be classified as fertilizer, or as import of the chemicals that are mixed together to create the fertilizer.

Customs is one of the most powerful organizations in Thailand. You cannot force them to back down. If you hire a lawyer, because you "refuse to cooperate with corruption" - then all you are doing is making yourself feel good - because all the law firm will do is pay the corruption, mark up that amount, and bill you for the marked up fee, as their professional service charge. It is ludicrous to think that a law firm can "sue" Thai Customs. That would (literally) cost millions of baht.

If a fee will show up as "customs formality" on a Customs receipt, IT IS NOT CORRUPTION. It is a deductible business expense - and they have the legal right to collect. Remember - for every day that your container is sitting at the port, you are paying demurrage - and for a container, that fee can quickly grow quite large.

Finally - its is possible that there is simply a legitimate misunderstanding about how to classify unfamiliar items. You can possibly work through that sort of problem. But - do that in cooperation with Customs - not via adversarial combat with them.

Your customs/freight broker is your most valuable partner in most dealings with Customs. If you have bad or dishonest freight broker, that is a separate problem.

The idea of going to lawyer is ridiculous to me - unless the amount of total Customs fee will be 500,000 baht or more. Pyrrhic victories are usually not worth fighting.

Good luck.

Steve

Indo-Siam

Edited December 5, 2010 by Indo-Siam

[givenall]

"Final Customs duties and charges are up to the discretion of the Customs Officer".

That's the biggest problem with the "law" in Thailand isn't it.

I think you need to rethink doing business in Thailand if you want to always play in ethnical manor. It is almost impossible. If any Government official thinks you are making good money they will come after you more often than you think

[Mitker]

Thanks for all your contributions guys.

They all make sense somehow since this is the typical legal grey area where everything turns into a game of power and all scenarios are possible.

In this case, the issue is not about duties rates since we've paid them already. The hijacking of the container happened hours after the duties and taxes payment was completed when the container was supposed to leave. More like putting it back on the table at the last minute for an convenient milking attempt.

We'll meet them these days to clarify who's playing the trick. Could be the shipping agent. We'll meet them both together and have a few simple technical questions that will quickly clear it. It will also be the right opportunity to feel how confident the custom official is about the procedure. So far they hardly could clearly specify what the problem was. Looks like they would put the color of the container on the list if they could...

Thailand is part of the GATT agreements and Thai customs website puts it clearly that arbitrary decision by the officials is excluded.

Sure we'll learn from this meeting. It might turn up that all this is just a hot air balloon..

To address the risk issue, we are aware of it.

The bad experiences mentioned are a reality. Personally, I'd gladly meet these people to show them my respect. They lost -sometimes a lot I guess- but contributed somehow to make it less comfortable for corrupt officials to go on with their business. They surely didn't stop it, but they contributed to improve a sickening situation, paying the high price personally for the benefit of all. All my respect.

Corruption issue is a long term problem here. It is deeply rooted and still tolerated by a majority. But with more and more interaction with the rest of the world, a growing part of the society -still a minority indeed- rejects it. More and more Thais are educated abroad and understand what corruption costs the country and that it has not to be a fatality. I personally know Thais officials at the base of the pyramid who literally put their life at risk by fighting this cancer. They are the ones who deserve the most. Someday they will make a change here.

As for me, I've considered this scenario (already in the past while assessing this potential situation). I got to the conclusion that I would rather stop operating here and move my operations somewhere else (not in Vietnam or Cambodia or Sicily, no) rather than being ruled by these players (for years I've been immune to them). I would simply not see Thailand as an enjoyable place to stay, and I'm lucky enough that my business makes a move possible even if at some significant cost. I don't "need" to live in Thailand.

But the aspects that are more difficult to assess are the potential collateral damages. I've talked lately with relatives and partners. They expressed the (understandable) worry that they might suffer, directly or indirectly, from a conflict I would be involved in. Personally or professionally. That's something I have to take into account and that I have no control on.

You said dilemma?

[selftaopath]

BRAVO. I applaud you Sir and your company. Oh but if more companies/individuals had the same policy/mind set.

Thank you. Reading your post was a great way to start my day. Like a breath of fresh air in a very dirty/polluted/unhealthy environment.

Keoki

[Mitker]

Just for information, here is the result.

We went to confront the customs. All their claims proved to be basically groundless.

As a result the requested amount has been reduced but - more importantly - the tea money has been replaced by an official increase of duties. They pretended the declared value was under-valuated.

Well, that doesn't make any problem to us. And it let them save face (or what's left of it).

As a conclusion, I would say that even if it cost us some time and money, it was worth the trouble. Face-to-face, with no ground, they lost the self-confidence they formerly showed. We didn't cure the disease but we did some resistance at our level.

[Thai IP Guy]

I suggest you contact LGP Law - part of the Atherton Group. Ed Kelly senior partner Asia and extremely well credentialled at the highest levels if you get my drift.

http://www.lgpatlaw.com/articles/id/73

Thanks for the kind recommendation.

Please feel free to contact me at [email protected]. Happy to help!

Appreciate your thinking of me

Best