Caught Jamming

[sriracha john]

That would all seem to invalidate Indo-Siam's assessment.

Not necessarily. He was basing some of his remarks/analysis on the premise that "men in suits" came to spirit the jammer away, to which jayenram then revised his initial description of these authority figures.

I'm still of the opinion that somebody must have dropped a dime on the jammer. I highly doubt that the immigrations police or whoever were just out on the town, looking for somebody to hassle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ok... that's fine. Just so long as this explanation is not readily believed:

3) Thai national counter-intelligence agents were rounding up spies, and this guy was one of their targets.

[jayenram]

That would all seem to invalidate Indo-Siam's assessment.

Not necessarily. He was basing some of his remarks/analysis on the premise that "men in suits" came to spirit the jammer away, to which jayenram then revised his initial description of these authority figures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My initial description was what I thought I saw. It was darkish and I was pishedish. I later got a proper description from the guy in question.

That would all seem to invalidate Indo-Siam's assessment.

I'm still of the opinion that somebody must have dropped a dime on the jammer. I highly doubt that the immigrations police or whoever were just out on the town, looking for somebody to hassle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They definitely were not just passing by. He usually gets up on stage around 18:30 so they obviously planned their visit to more or less coincide with his jam.

I'm not saying that there is not more to this than meets the eye. I have one side of the story and what I saw with my own eyes. He was definitely not questioned for more than 30 minutes.

[steveromagnino]

Just to be clear, I used to have a work permit to work in USA, but it expired. Previously I had from time to time played with the house band at the hotel I worked at. I was terrible, but they needed the help :-)

Anyway, after my legal status expired (I think it was a J1 Visa or something) the hotel would not let me play anymore; even though I was not getting paid. They pointed out that playing regularly and possibly receiving tips (even though they were not in control of that) could be construed as work; they could be construed as employers and therefore I could not play anymore. They were worried about a visit from the INS or my claim against them should I suffer an accident in the workplace (and theoretically that I could persue a case that they had engaged me to work for them in return for the possibility of earning tips and/or assisting others to generate income. I was just doing it for fun!

All this utter rubbish and drivel I read all the time on threads like this about Thais and Thailand. Please also expand to read... Thais and Thailand and Americans And USA. TIT indeed - I think not... please write TITAUSA.

Thanks.

[ovenman]

Anyway, after my legal status expired (I think it was a J1 Visa or something) the hotel would not let me play anymore; even though I was not getting paid.

Point taken that it's not necessarily just Thailand but you are neither are you making an equal comparison. In your case, you were initially working legally in the US and you were then (potentially) performing the exact same function without said authorization.

[Prudent_rabbit]

Taking teachers and those who have set up their own company out of the equation, what would you say the percentage of farangs who are working legally for private companies who offer varying skills do not have the Thai reading, writing and verbal skills you mention?

I would imagine a very low percentage, Ive been here a year and now just starting taking lessons to read and write, its tough but Im starting to make headway and it is helping me understand all the forms I have to use.

Another thing should be mentioned in terms of jobs, I run a recruitment comapny and receive about 10 CV's a week from farangs who want to work here, trouble is, the majority ask for salaries that are equal or better than they are earning, ie Helpdesk staff wanting 2 million a year, accountants wanting 400,000 a month, they dont speak Thai and are being unrealistic. The job market for Farangs is there its just very small and takes a lot of hunting to find. We dont bother as its far easier (and more profitable) to recuit for the local market.

[sabaijai]

Suppose a foreigner got up and sang at a karaoke bar - need a work permit?

[sriracha john]

Anyway, after my legal status expired (I think it was a J1 Visa or something) the hotel would not let me play anymore; even though I was not getting paid.

Point taken that it's not necessarily just Thailand but you are neither are you making an equal comparison. In your case, you were initially working legally in the US and you were then (potentially) performing the exact same function without said authorization.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...and just to further clarify, steve. Had your visa expired? If so, then that puts you in a different position than the OP describes.

The reason I ask is that when a J1 expires, normally you are expected to return to your home country.

J-1 visa information

Through the Exchange Visitor Program, foreign nationals may visit the United States temporarily to teach, lecture, study, observe, conduct research, consult, train, or demonstrate special skills. Designated sponsoring organizations facilitate the entry of foreign nationals into the United States to complete the objectives of any one of 13 program categories. At the conclusion of their program, participants are expected to return to their home countries.

Exactly what category did you receive your J1?... as it doesn't sound like a hotel band musician would qualify.

The office is organized into two divisions. The Private Sector Programs Division includes the alien physician, au pair, camp counselor, summer work/travel, and training exchange visitor categories. The Academic and Government Programs Division includes the student program category, which accommodates programs for both secondary (high school) and post-secondary (college/university students) at undergraduate and graduate levels, degree and non-degree tracks, the professor, research scholar, short-term scholar, specialist, teacher, and Government Visitor and International Visitor categories. The latter two program categories are reserved for the exclusive use of government (local, state, and federal) agencies and the Department of State, respectively.

Edited August 23, 2005 by sriracha john

[phastmike]

Switching to all the whining (whinging????) about work permits:  Everybody without a work permit cries that it is too hard, unfair, etc.  It is always “Thai government” or “Thai employers” that are the problem.  Wrong.  It is easy to get a job with a work permit here – all you have to do is convince a Thai employer that he can – virtually immediately – recover back the workers monthly salary cost, plus a small profit – by hiring the worker.  It is that simple.  I will hire 100 workers tomorrow – if each can convince me that by hiring them, I will recover in the first month enough additional revenue to pay their salary (including social fund burden), plus earn 1,000 baht profit.  If this plays out, I make an extra 100,000 baht per month of profit – and everyone is happy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And Santa Claus exists...

[Pink Mist]

In a beer garden here, an American has been regularly jamming with a local band on stage. He does it purely for fun and, other than being bought the odd pint, receives no payment whatsoever.

Last night, men in suits ordered him to stop playing and pack up his gear. They then lead him away and drove off in a car to who knows where.

Considering he probably does not have a work permit, does anyone know what will happen to him?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is that the same guy we saw Jaye?

[jayenram]

Is that the same guy we saw Jaye?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess it must be, Blonc. There's only one American Sax player up here that I know of.

[jayenram]

Is that the same guy we saw Jaye?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess it must be, Blonc. There's only one American Sax player up here that I know of.

[DJ Moore]

In a beer garden here, an American has been regularly jamming with a local band on stage. He does it purely for fun and, other than being bought the odd pint, receives no payment whatsoever.

Last night, men in suits ordered him to stop playing and pack up his gear. They then lead him away and drove off in a car to who knows where.

Considering he probably does not have a work permit, does anyone know what will happen to him?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since the men who took him were wearing suits, let hope for the best, and that it was another club owner who wanted to use his talents LOL............. DJM

[drummer]

Suppose a foreigner got up and sang at a karaoke bar - need a work permit? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Technically speaking, yes - if you are using their microphone and karaoke machine.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

if it was unpaid and irregular they'd turn a blind eye.

[drummer]

What about if it just wasn't very good?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

It was in a boozy joint. The punters couldn't tell the difference

[sabaijai]

unfortunately the law is the law.the terms of it are available for all read, so there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally and again there is no excuse for not pursing the correct avenues, other than laziness and stupidity.it is an unfortunately anal situation but i dont think moaning about it will do a goddam thing.you can address the law or attempt to change it to your benefit, the latter option probably being an exercise in futility, so educating yourself on how to conduct ones activities lawfully is probaly the best SOLUTION to the winge.

Update as of 1 Oct 05:

Apparently the law actually sides with jammers. An Italian who was arrested by immigration police in Chiang Mai while playing guitar for free at a local bar took his case to court. The court ruled that it is *not* illegal to sit in with local bands if you're not getting paid for it. The court ruled there was a distinction between professional and amateur musicians, and that amateur musicans and amateur artists were distinct from other kinds of work (eg, English teaching). If the jammer/artist has never accepted money in Thailand for playing music, he is considered an amateur.

I met with the Italian guitarist in question last night and he is providing me with a copy of the court ruling/acquittal. If you would like a photocopy, PM me.

[ovenman]

If the jammer/artist has never accepted money in Thailand for playing music, he is considered an amateur.

This is really intriguing in that as such, it would appear to narrow the Thai law that is written so broadly that it pretty much states even thinking about doing work is performing work, and therefore requires a work permit. Anybody with a legal background care to comment?

[solo siam]

What about gardening? is that illegal?

[lanny]

Yeah! The requirement for work permits can be applied rather rigidly sometimes. Thai authorities don't always think of the consequences of their actions.

Remember the fuss over work permits for the volunteers helping after the Tsunami?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

unfortunately the law is the law.the terms of it are available for all read, so there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally and again there is no excuse for not pursing the correct avenues, other than laziness and stupidity.it is an unfortunately anal situation but i dont think moaning about it will do a goddam thing.you can address the law or attempt to change it to your benefit, the latter option probably being an exercise in futility, so educating yourself on how to conduct ones activities lawfully is probaly the best SOLUTION to the winge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Update as of 1 Oct 05:

Apparently the law actually sides with jammers. An Italian who was arrested by immigration police in Chiang Mai while playing guitar for free at a local bar took his case to court. The court ruled that it is *not* illegal to sit in with local bands if you're not getting paid for it. The court ruled there was a distinction between professional and amateur musicians, and that amateur musicans and amateur artists were distinct from other kinds of work (eg, English teaching). If the jammer/artist has never accepted money in Thailand for playing music, he is considered an amateur.

I met with the Italian guitarist in question last night and he is providing me with a copy of the court ruling/acquittal. If you would like a photocopy, PM me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd love a copy. [email protected] Thanks

[Stube]

I met with the Italian guitarist in question last night and he is providing me with a copy of the court ruling/acquittal. If you would like a photocopy, PM me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd love a copy. [email protected] Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

an attachment would be good for the members here.

[britmaveric]

Hmmm anyone want to wager if same circumstances occured again the jammer would be on the losing end?

[sabaijai]

As soon as I have the document in hand (should be next wknd), I'll email or PM those who have requested it.

[samran]

Update as of 1 Oct 05:

Apparently the law actually sides with jammers. An Italian who was arrested by immigration police in Chiang Mai while playing guitar for free at a local bar took his case to court. The court ruled that it is *not* illegal to sit in with local bands if you're not getting paid for it. The court ruled there was a distinction between professional and amateur musicians, and that amateur musicans and amateur artists were distinct from other kinds of work (eg, English teaching).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So how does this ruling apply to the throngs of 'amateur' English teachers in LOS. Work permits are not needed then? They sound similar to these musician blokes, ie are not proffessionals and are not getting paid anything for it, except peanuts.

Seriously though, Thailand needs more people challanging laws in court to obtain better offical clarifications of what a law actually means.

[drummer]

i am not a lawyer, but I have heard that Thailand does not have a precedent system - that one judge gets to decide by himself what happens without taking into consideration previous rulings. So more lawsuits just result in a busier court system, not a more clearer one...

[Micke]

As soon as I have the document in hand (should be next wknd), I'll email or PM those who have requested it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you get it?

Regards,

Mike

[mijan24]

Hmmm anyone want to wager if same circumstances occured again the jammer would be on the losing end?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who knows, maybe the fuss over work permits for the volunteers helping after the Tsunami caused some people to look at things with a different perspective??

[sabaijai]

As soon as I have the document in hand (should be next wknd), I'll email or PM those who have requested it.

Did you get it?

Regards,

Mike

Not yet. The weekend I arranged to pick it up, the guitarist in question forgot to bring it, and I haven't had a chance to arrange another handover. I'm hoping I'll get it this weekend.

As soon as I do have the papers, I'll make copies for everyone that requested them.

[Sunny Valentine]

If you could please PM a copy to me, too!

Tx

Sunny

As soon as I have the document in hand (should be next wknd), I'll email or PM those who have requested it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you get it?

Regards,

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not yet. The weekend I arranged to pick it up, the guitarist in question forgot to bring it, and I haven't had a chance to arrange another handover. I'm hoping I'll get it this weekend.

As soon as I do have the papers, I'll make copies for everyone that requested them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>