Israel condemns Argentina for recognizing Palestine as an independent state

[Ulysses G.]

You are correct. A terrorist organization was voted in by the Arabs. It continually attacks Israeli civilians, refuses to even consider peace and of course the Israelis make their lives difficult in return

The United States does not recognize terrorist organizations as legitimate governments.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Wallaby]

So the US wants democracy, but only democracy it agrees with. Interesting.

[Ulysses G.]

Is Hamas democratic?

Edited December 10, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

IMO the illogic of everything negative about Israel is fake serves to convert otherwise indifferent individuals into card carrying anti-semites.

No one says that there is nothing negative about Israel. There are negative things about every country. However, some people do nothing but post negative things concerning them and much of it is untrue or does not take into consideration the fact that they have been at war for many decades and that they are not the ones that started it.

As for the assertion that posting honest historical facts will make people into anti-Semites, the willingness to accept racist beliefs must have been there already.

[pkspeaker]

Prior to the Zionist state, the country was called 'Palestine' more specifically 'British Palestine' or 'British Mandate Palestine', prior to the British controlling the region it was called 'Palestine' under the Ottoman empire; I have seen in a museum in Nazareth the old law books from the ottoman empire, they were called Laws of the Governorship of Palestine, on any old map prior to 1948 you can see it labled as Palestine, and in any old newspaper prior 1948 the country was called Palestine.. saying there was never a Palestine because it was a colonial possession of the British or Ottoman empire is like saying that Cambodia or Vietnam never existed because they were part of the French empire.. when a colonial empire has a country as a possession , the country is still there as a civil state, it's just that the colonial empire controls it's foreign policy and maintains an army there, another example is the Austrian-Hungarian empire which included Serbia, Croatia, Albania, Romania, etc. all those states were still there during that empire its just that they were states kind of like in the USA, does the state of Texas not currently exist??

Hamas has offered to recoginize Israel as a political entity, but more importantly they have said that if Abbas and the fatah led PA reaches an aggreement with Israel, they will put that agreement up to referendum and they will accept the will of the Palestinian people, polls show that Palestinians will overwhelming vote in favor of partition along the 1967 borders, what they do not accept is being treated like animals in an aphartied scheme, which is all the right wing government in israel is prepared to offer.

What you said about "arabs are immigrants from neighboring arab countries" is a standardized zionist myth, and an idiotic one at that. Both the Ottoman and British Empires took census of the population in Palestine; In fact prior to zionist settlers arriving from europe Palestinian Arabs were 80% muslim, about 15% christian, and less than 5% Palestinian Jew, these people were all basically a Semitic 'arab' ethnicity and they all spoke Arabic as a first language. By 1947 after waves of Jews had arrived from Europe the population of Palestine was still about 75% Palestinian, thats why the zionists expelled all those people so they could be a majority in 78% of Palestine..

and the British DID allow Jewish immigration to Palestine (how do you think all those Jews got there) it's just they had to obtain the appropriate travel documents and pay a fee to enter, some of the arrived as illegal aliens just like some mexicans enter the US today, you can't blame the british for charging an entry fee since they had to pay for this whole mess and fight WWII at the same time, the money was used to house these people and provide them with basic services..like water

currently 2/3s of Jordanians are of Palestinian decent because so many Palestinians fled and were taken in by Jordan, add to that another 5 million Palestinians living in refugee camps, Palestine is/was some of the most fertile land in the near east region, that is why so many 'Palestinian Arabs' lived there and owned agricultural land..

currently Palestinians and the world are asking israel to abandon the least fertile part of the country, a dry hilly landlocked area(the west bank) and an overcrowded slum (Gaza) both territories comprise a mere 22% of historic Palestine.. the only alternative to this is making the Palestinians citizens and awarding them equal rights(something the Palestinians would be thrilled with but would end Israel as a Jewish state and would make it a normal secular country like america.. the israelis refuse both and insist on being a kukluxklan racist aphartied state.. so who's the religious extremists here?

Palestinians have recognized israel repeatedly during the oslo process, Israel has never recognized Palestine

Has Hamas recognized Israel? They control much of the population and were voted into power and have been waging warfare non-stop. Of course Israel makes their lives difficult.

Learn some history. Don't make it up. There is no Palestine yet - so how can it be "recognized? - and there has never been a country with that name.

Most of the Arabs that live there arrived as immigrants from Arab countries when Jewish immigration was forbidden by the British and there were already more Jews in Jeruselem than Arabs and very few people outside of the city.

When the Palestinian Arabs make peace, they will get their own country.

Edited December 10, 2010 by pkspeaker

[hammered]

Quite unusual that anyone recognizes anything about Palestine. After all their last election which was seen as one of the fairest and freest in the middle east wasnt recognized by anyone as they didnt like the winners.

[Ulysses G.]

Prior to the Zionist state, the country was called 'Palestine' more specifically 'British Palestine' or 'British Mandate Palestine', prior to the British controlling the region it was called 'Palestine' under the Ottoman empire;

It was a province run by the Turks during the Ottoman Empire and then the British under the League of Nations and it had very few inhabitants outside of Jerusalem which was mostly Jews as far back as the 1800s and there have always been Jews there throughout history.

Again, there was never a State called Palestine or a Palestinian people or a Palestinian language.

"PALESTINE" - Never an Arab Country

One of the myths of our time is that Israel, before it was settled by the “alien” Jews and “stolen” from the Arabs as a result of “imperialist machinations,” was an independent state called “Palestine” whose majority residents were Moslem “Palestinians”. Unfortunately for those who would propagate such misinformation, the truth can be easily and historically seen.

The historical fact is that until the defeat of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire in World War I, there was no geopolitical entity called “Palestine,” no Arab nation ever set historical roots on this soil and no national claim was ever made to the territory by any national group other than the Jews.

Between the time of the expulsion of the Jews by the Romans in the year 70 to 132 AD and the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, Israel (“Palestine”) was occupied by fourteen conquerors over thirteen centuries, until in 1948 the Jews once again declared their independence. The following table shows the historical periods of the various rulers of “Palestine”:

1. Israel Rule (Biblical period) 1350 BC to 586 BC 2. Babylonian Conquest 587 BC to 538 BC 3. Israel Autonomy (under Persian & Greco-Assyrian sovereignty) 538 BC to 168 BC 4. Revolt of the Maccabees 168 BC to 143 BC 5. Rule of the Hashmoneans & their successors 143 BC to 70 AD 6. Jewish Autonomy (under Roman & Byzantine sovereignty) 70 AD to 637 AD 7. Rule of Moslem Caliphs

Mecca 637 AD to 661 AD

Umayyides 661 AD to 750 AD

Abbaaside 750 AD to 870 AD

Fatimides 969 AD to 1071 AD 637 AD to 1072 AD 8. Seljukes Rule 1072 AD to 1096 AD 9. Crusaders

Ayyubids (in parts only) 1175 AD to 1291 AD 1099 AD to 1291 AD 10. Mamelukes Rule 1291 AD to 1516 AD 11. Ottomans (Turks) 1516 AD to 1918 AD 12. British Mandate 1918 AD to 1948 AD 13. Israel rule under democracy 1948 AD --- .

Thus, during the entire period of recorded history “Palestine” was never ruled by so called “Palestinians”, the name adopted today by the Moslem residents of the Holy Land. The rule of the various Moslem Caliphates, which was a foreign rule, extended for a period of 432 years – Jewish rule of “Palestine” extended over a period of over 2000 years.

The inhabitants of the land consisted of the conquering soldiers and their slaves, and only during the Moslem conquest of the area were these diverse ethnic inhabitants compelled to accept Islam and the Arabic tongue, or be put to the sword. The Jews, on the other hand, are in fact the sole survivors of the ancient inhabitants of “Palestine”, who have maintained an uninterrupted link with the land since the dawn of recorded history.

It is one of the failures of our media today that, while an almost complete acceptance is granted to an absurd, fabricated lie, no attention at all is paid to the fascinating story of the Jewish families and communities who have resided in the Holy Land without interruption since Biblical times. These people have, throughout hundreds and thousands of years, kept their national claim to God's given ownership of their homeland.

Arabs Recognize Jewish Sovereignty

These facts were well known and publicly recognized by the international community in 1919, during the Allied peace Conference in Paris, to which representatives of the Middle East Moslems, as well as the Jewish people were invited. At this conference, Emir (Crown Prince) Feisal, son of king Hussein (great grandfather of the present king Hussein of Jordan), who headed the Moslem delegation, agreed that “Palestine” should be earmarked as the specific area in which Jewish sovereignty was to mature.

He announced acceptance of the Balfour Declaration of November 2nd, 1917, and concluded an agreement with the World Zionist Organization, confirming that “all such measures shall be adopted as will afford the fullest guarantee of carrying into effect the British Government's Balfour Declaration”.

These same sentiments were expressed by Emir Feisal in a letter (dated March 3, 1919) to Prof. Felix Frankfurter, Justice of the United States Supreme Court: “Our deputation here in Paris is full acquainted with the proposals submitted by the Zionist organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as modest and proper. We will do our best, insofar as we are concerned, to help them through. We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home.”

Jewish Areas Reduced

The two sets of promises officially made by Britain – one to the Moslems and the other to the Jews – were originally fully reconcilable ones.

The interesting historical fact is that between World War I and the United Nations partition of “Palestine” in 1947, British promises to the Moslems were over-fulfilled, while their promises to the Jews were constantly violated and whittled down. Far from being the victims of imperialism, the Moslems were handsomely rewarded when 20 sovereign states were artificially established by the British after carving up the former Turkish Empire. These new countries had no previous national history or independent culture.

The development of the part of “Palestine” allocated by the major Powers for Jewish sovereignty took a different course. The area originally designated and agreed to by Hussein and Feisal was first reduced by four-fifths. Four-fifths of the Jewish homeland was given in a “land for peace” agreement and on this land today's kingdom of Jordan was established. On one-fifth of the remaining land, the democratic country of Israel exists today. In 1948, in the wake of 7 invading armies, Israel declared independence. The State of Israel consists of less than 8,000 square miles. Against this, only five Moslem States – Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iraq – cover an area of 1,200,000 square miles.

It should be pointed out here that at that time over 70% of today's Israel consisted of Crown lands transferred from the outgoing Ottoman Power to the Incoming British Mandatory Authority. The remaining 30% of the land was largely swamp and barren hillside: It was in these areas that Jewish settlement began through land purchase from absentee Moslem owners. At no time did the Jews seek to displace the indigenous Moslem population.

The distribution of land in 1949 in the part of “Palestine” after Israel was re-established was as follows:

• 8.6% of the land was owned by Jews.
• 3.3% of the land was owned by Israeli Moslems.
• 16.5% of the land was owned by other Moslems.
• 70% of the land was the property of the British Mandatory Government, after 1948 transferee to the Government of Israel.

Under the Mandate, the Jewish population continued to grow but while their immigration was progressively restricted, that of Moslems from the surrounding countries (Syria and Jordan) was completely free. As a result, attracted by the Jewish development of the country, the Moslem population increased rapidly and had attained majority by 1947.

Palestinian Arabs Never a Nation

“Palestinian” Arab nationalism today is a product of recent political and religious currents. Until the 1920's no such national community had even existed in “Palestine”. This is why both the Balfour Declaration and the League of Nations Mandate charged the Jews of the National Home with guaranteeing the civil and religious rights of other inhabitants. No mention was made of other national rights of other inhabitants, as it was recognized that the only national claim to the area was that made by the Jews.

But the fiction of Palestinian Arab nationality is still being exploited. If the Palestinians were in fact a separate nationality then their anger over the past 20 years would have been directed as much against Jordan and Egypt as against Israel, for it was the invading armies of these countries which captured, in the 1948 war, a substantial portion of the territory allotted under the United Nations' plan to the Palestinian Moslems. This included the West Bank, which was occupied by the Jordanian Army, and added to their Kingdom, and the Gaza Strip, which was seized by the Egyptians.

The one people that have, in fact, maintained its historic connection with the area called “Palestine,” over a period of 2,000 years, is the Jews. Of course, the Bible never uses the term “Palestine”, but prefers to call this land “Judah” or “Israel”. Indeed, the Jewish right to the land of Israel is not based only on history, but is claimed by the physical process of work invested in transforming it into an area capable of supporting life. It is the fruits of this work that motivate mythological Arab claims to the territory.

http://actionforisrael.org/never_arab.html

[koheesti]

You forgot to add, "but only if you are stupid enough to declare war on us for the umpteenth time".

Israel has taken 1/100000th of the land that other countries - such as Russia - have taken by force without even being attacked. The US at least bought most of their territory (Manhattan, Louisiana Purchase, Alaska). Yes, Indians were living there before but where'd they get it from?

btw - isn't Argentina where many of the Nazis went to after WWII?

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas has offered to recoginize Israel as a political entity

Can you provide a link to this offer. I would like to see exactly what it was. Quite frankly I can find very little of the supposed "history" in your post that can be verified and what I do find is highly distorted.

This pro-Hamas tract that says that there was some kind of a an offer, but that it was not serious or sincere - AS PER USUAL. This is the only mention of it that I can find.

There have been some rumors of late alleging that Hamas is willing to recognize Israel in exchange for the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem.

Some anti-Hamas websites indulged in more than a small amount of gloating and disinformation, effectively celebrating Hamas's alleged ideological turnabout. Moreover, some Fatah spokesperson seized on the rumors, claiming that Hamas and Fatah were now on equal footing.

Even Hezbutahrir (the Islamic Liberation Party) which is notorious for trying to catch faults with Hamas, has castigated the Islamic movement for following the path of Fatah and abandoning the path of Islam.!!!

The truth of the matter is that for Hamas recognition of Israel, the Zionist entity which claims Palestine as an exclusive national Jewish homeland, remains an ultimate and inviolable red line.

Which means that the Islamic Liberation Movement will never ever recognize the illegitimate entity called Israel?

Hamas does recognize the physical existence of Israel, but it doesn't attach any moral legitimacy to that existence. This principled non-recognition of the Zionist regime is not a tactical or bargaining position which might change depending on the direction of political winds. It is rather an immutable bedrock upon which Hamas's very existence is based. It is a matter of religion for Hamas and all other Muslims who take their religion seriously.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[koheesti]

Hamas has offered to recoginize Israel as a political entity

Can you provide a link to this offer. I would like to see exactly what it was. Quite frankly I can find very little of the supposed "history" in your post that can be verified and what I do find is highly distorted.

Maybe Hamas will recognize Israel as a state whose territory is somewhere far off the coast beneath the Mediterranean Sea?

[SergeiY]

You forgot to add, "but only if you are stupid enough to declare war on us for the umpteenth time".

Israel has taken 1/100000th of the land that other countries - such as Russia - have taken by force without even being attacked. The US at least bought most of their territory (Manhattan, Louisiana Purchase, Alaska). Yes, Indians were living there before but where'd they get it from?

btw - isn't Argentina where many of the Nazis went to after WWII?

What have Russia, the Nazis and the Indians in Manhattan to do with Palestine?

[SergeiY]

The one people that have, in fact, maintained its historic connection with the area called “Palestine,” over a period of 2,000 years, is the Jews. Of course, the Bible never uses the term “Palestine”, but prefers to call this land “Judah” or “Israel”. Indeed, the Jewish right to the land of Israel is not based only on history, but is claimed by the physical process of work invested in transforming it into an area capable of supporting life. It is the fruits of this work that motivate mythological Arab claims to the territory.

http://actionforisrael.org/never_arab.html

Ohh yes, the Bible. What a brilliant argument.

[pkspeaker]

I just searched and a few news items come up:

http://www.ynetnews....3249568,00.html

http://www.foxnews.c...,201109,00.html

According to Suleiman, the movement [hamas]will be ready to accept a Palestinian state inside the '67 borders and will not operate to thwart diplomatic negotiations held by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.

The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the '67 borders, senior Hamas member Khaled Suleiman said Wednesday.

these are right wing sources and even they say Hamas is open to recognizing israel along 1967 borders.. recognizing israel is good enough, recognizing it as a "jewish state" or "a state for the jewish people" is problematic because what about the 25% of the population that isn't Jewish, that would seem to declare them as 2nd class citizens.. ISrael should be talking to their own citizens about what the character of the state should be..not people that are going to be in a separate state. Can you imagine telling African, Hispanic, and Asian Americans that they must recognize America as a "white, caucasian country" or as a "christian state"? this type of demagoguery is outside the bounds of a real democracy ..

btw look at how disgusting Israels treatment of Palestinian-Israeli's is..remember these people in this video are not the Palestinians in the West bank, they are israeli citizens!

http://english.aljaz...8520643284.html

Now the Knesset is debating whether to stop Arab Israelis living in cities where there is a Jewish majority. Israel won't give Palestinians a permit to build and is taking down 'illegal' structures. They are not allowed to build real homes and then the racist aphartied state tears down the shacks that they are forced to live in. They havn't given them building permits in 10 years and they dump toxic sewage on them! As usual the mainstream media in the west constantly covers up israeli injustices.. you have to go to the internet to get the truth.

as far as the rest of the ballouny you posted, again both the British and Ottomans took census in Palestine, and in both cases Palestinian Arabs were the majority, the zionists are overwhelmingly immigrants from europe and some of them come from arab countries, and it really doesn't matter, right now you have 1/2 the population in Israel/Palestine that are Palestinian Arabs, so it exists in that sense, its either 2 states or a bi-national state..aphartied will not be a permanent solution, in the future arabs may be a majority, then they won't want a separate state, you people are not doing Israel and favors witn these historical revisions and religious dogma.. why not come up with some religious dogma so we can keep blacks in bantustans in america?

Hamas has offered to recoginize Israel as a political entity

Can you provide a link to this offer. I would like to see exactly what it was. Quite frankly I can find very little of the supposed "history" in your post that can be verified and what I do find is highly distorted.

This pro-Hamas tract that says that there was some kind of a an offer, but that it was not serious or sincere - AS PER USUAL. This is the only mention of it that I can find.

There have been some rumors of late alleging that Hamas is willing to recognize Israel in exchange for the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem.

Some anti-Hamas websites indulged in more than a small amount of gloating and disinformation, effectively celebrating Hamas's alleged ideological turnabout. Moreover, some Fatah spokesperson seized on the rumors, claiming that Hamas and Fatah were now on equal footing.

Even Hezbutahrir (the Islamic Liberation Party) which is notorious for trying to catch faults with Hamas, has castigated the Islamic movement for following the path of Fatah and abandoning the path of Islam.!!!

The truth of the matter is that for Hamas recognition of Israel, the Zionist entity which claims Palestine as an exclusive national Jewish homeland, remains an ultimate and inviolable red line.

Which means that the Islamic Liberation Movement will never ever recognize the illegitimate entity called Israel?

Hamas does recognize the physical existence of Israel, but it doesn't attach any moral legitimacy to that existence. This principled non-recognition of the Zionist regime is not a tactical or bargaining position which might change depending on the direction of political winds. It is rather an immutable bedrock upon which Hamas's very existence is based. It is a matter of religion for Hamas and all other Muslims who take their religion seriously.

Edited December 10, 2010 by pkspeaker

[Ulysses G.]

I just searched and a few news items come up:

http://www.ynetnews....3249568,00.html

http://www.foxnews.c...,201109,00.html

You must be a little out of the loop.

These news report are from 2006 and Hamas never came through - AS USUAL.

In fact, they were still balking in November 2010.

Are there any actual facts in anything that you post on this subject or is it all distortions of true events?

.

In early September 2009, Cairo put forward a new document to reconcile the two factions. Fatah signed the agreement last year, but Hamas has so far been reluctant to follow suit.

The inter-Palestinian rivalry is a major obstacle hampering Israeli-Palestinian peace talks. Hamas, which has refused to recognize Israel's right to exist and reserves the right to use violence in its struggle to create a Palestinian state, has denounced the direct peace negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians.

[pkspeaker]

Hamas's position hasn't changed since 2006, I don't know what you mean by "They havn't come thru.." They have given Abbas backing to negotiate an agreement with Israel, that they will then put to referendum; Israel during this time has not responded to this peace overture, it has continued to blockade the Gaza strip, prevent palestinian fisherman from fishing off Gaza's coast, and shoot at Palestinians tending their agricultural land (what little they have) inside the Gaza strip, Hamas has also offered a complete cease-fire if Israel stops the blockading tactics, Israel refused .

I just searched and a few news items come up:

http://www.ynetnews....3249568,00.html

http://www.foxnews.c...,201109,00.html

You must be a little out of the loop.

These news report are from 2006 and Hamas never came through - AS USUAL.

In fact, they were still balking in November 2010.

Are there any actual facts in anything that you post on this subject or is it all distortions of true events?

.

In early September 2009, Cairo put forward a new document to reconcile the two factions. Fatah signed the agreement last year, but Hamas has so far been reluctant to follow suit.

The inter-Palestinian rivalry is a major obstacle hampering Israeli-Palestinian peace talks. Hamas, which has refused to recognize Israel's right to exist and reserves the right to use violence in its struggle to create a Palestinian state, has denounced the direct peace negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians.

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas's position hasn't changed since 2006,

What you mean is that they refuse to even lie about their intentions until Israel meets their absurd demands.

Jewish World Review March 17, 2009

The US and Europe said they would recognize Hamas if it announced that it foreswore terror, accepted Israel's right to exist, and committed itself to carrying out previous agreements signed between the PLO and Israel. The Americans and the Europeans undoubtedly viewed these conditions as a low bar to cross. After all, the PLO crossed it.

The West's conditions were given with a wink and a nod. Everyone understood that the only thing it wanted was for Hamas to say the magic words. They didn't have to be true. If Khaled Mashaal and Ismail Haniyeh would just tell the US and Europe what they wanted to hear, all would be forgiven. Hamas — like the PLO before it — would be removed from the US and European terror lists. Billions would pour into the bank accounts of Hamas leaders in Gaza and Damascus. The CIA might even agree to train its terror forces.

It is obvious that all that the West wanted was for Hamas to lie to it, because that is all it ever required from the PLO. After Arafat said the magic words, the Americans and the Europeans were only too happy to ignore the fact that he was lying.

When immediately after signing the initial peace accord with Israel on the White House lawn on Sept. 13, 1993 Arafat flew to South Africa and gave a speech calling for jihad against Israel, no one cared.

When Arafat destroyed the free press in Judea, Samaria and Gaza and transformed the Palestinian media into propaganda organs calling for the eradication of Israel and the Jewish people, the world yawned.

When he launched his terror war against Israel and his US-trained forces began plotting and carrying out bombings of Israeli civilians, the US announced its chief goal in the Middle East was to establish a Palestinian state.

And when Arafat's successor Mahmoud Abbas announced that Fatah didn't accept Israel's right to exist and considered terrorism against Israel legitimate, he was declared the indispensable and sole legitimate Palestinian leader. Indeed, when his US-trained forces surrendered to Hamas in Gaza without a fight, the US showered an additional $80 million on Fatah forces.

On Tuesday, Fatah strongman and the West's favorite son of Palestine Muhammad Dahlan tried to explain the facts of life to Hamas. In an interview on PA television, Dahlan became the first senior Fatah official to openly admit that Fatah has never accepted Israel's right to exist. Dahlan denied reports that in the negotiations towards a Hamas-Fatah government, Fatah representatives are pressuring Hamas to recognize Israel. In his words, "I want to say in my own name and in the name of all my fellow members of the Fatah movement, we are not asking Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist. Rather, we are asking Hamas not to do so because Fatah never recognized Israel's right to exist."

Dahlan went on to explain how the fiction worked. Arafat was the head of the PLO but also the head of Fatah. While as chairman of the PLO he recognized Israel and pledged to end terrorism and live at peace with the Jewish state, as head of Fatah he continued his war against Israel. Dahlan even bragged that to date, Fatah has killed ten times more Palestinians suspected of cooperating with Israel's counter terror operations, (the same operations the PLO committed to assisting), than Hamas has.

Dahlan explained that all Hamas needs to do is to follow in Fatah's footsteps. It should say that the PA government accepts the West's terms but in the meantime, those terms will remain inapplicable to Hamas as a "resistance group." In that way, Dahlan explained, Hamas will be able to receive all the West's billions in financial assistance.

As he put it, "Do you imagine that Gaza's reconstruction is possible under the shadow of this bickering between us and the international community? [Gaza reconstruction] can only be dealt with by a government� that is acceptable to the international community so that we can� benefit from the international community."

Not surprisingly, Dahlan's statement went almost completely unnoted. Only the Jerusalem Post and one or two other Jewish publications and a few anti-jihadist blogs made note of it. The US, European and pro-peace process Israeli media all ignored it. No government spokesman anywhere in the world commented on it. Unfortunately though for the likes of Dahlan and his admirers in the West, Hamas isn't interested in joining Fatah's fiction. It refuses to say those magic words. So now the West looks for ways to lower its bar still further.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0309/glick032009.php3

[Xangsamhua]

Sorry, I haven't time to participate more constructively in this thread. I'm working 12-hour days over this long weekend. The respective rights and claims of the Palestinian Arabs and the Israelis is such a vexed question and seems unresolvable, other than by attrition. I doubt posters to this thread are going to change their position at all either.

My concern is more specifically with Hamas and the amount of support it gets in Palestine and the region, so this morning I took a few paragraphs from the Wikipedia article on Hamas. I must say they don't give me much confidence in that organization's ability to contribute to any conciliation.

Some quotes from the Wikipedia article on Hamas,in the order they appear in the text:

Hamas's 1988 charter calls for replacing theState of Israel with a Palestinian Islamic statein the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[26]….

In 2009, Khaled Meshal,Hamas's Damascus-basedpolitical bureau chief, stated Hamas's willingness to cooperate with "aresolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict which included a Palestinian statebased on 1967 borders," provided that Palestinian refugeesbe given the right to return to Israel and that East Jerusalembe recognized as the new state's capital. …..

In late 2006, Ismail Haniyeh,the political leader of Hamas, said that if a Palestinian statewas formed within the 1967 lines, Hamas was willing to declare a truce thatcould last as long as 20 years, and stated that Hamas will never recognize the"usurper Zionist government" and will continue "jihad-like movement until theliberation of Jerusalem". ….

In November 2008, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyehre-stated that Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1949 armistice lines,and offered Israel a long-term truce "if Israel recognized thePalestinians' national rights."[57]….

In early February, 2006, Hamas offeredIsrael a 10-year truce "in return for a complete Israeli withdrawal fromthe occupied Palestinian territories: the West Bank, Gaza Strip and EastJerusalem,"[102]and recognition of Palestinian rights including the "right ofreturn."[103]Mashal added that Hamas was not calling for a final end to armed operationsagainst Israel, and it would not impede other Palestinian groups from carryingout such operations.[104]….

After the election, the Quartet on theMiddle East (the United States, Russia, the European Union(EU), and the United Nations) stated that assistance to the PalestinianAuthority would only continue if Hamas renounced violence, recognized Israel,and accepted previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements, which Hamas refused todo. ….

[pkspeaker]

Ulyses G....

SItes like "JewishWorldReview" and "actionforisrael.org are not legitimate sources for information or facts, you can't verify, trust, or believe anything that is written in editorial on a right-wing zionist propaganda site.

When I site sources for information I'm citing the British and Ottoman census data and I even include FoxNews and ynet so that the information cannot be considered biased, when I did include an Aljazeera piece it was in video so it can't be denied whats happening on the ground.. and all you can do is post this garbage site of unsubstantiated bs. no-one with a brain reading this thread would be impressed by this trash..

am I supposed to counter your sites with some pakistani islamic site?? if your going to post sources at least use some reputable news organization.. don't fill the thread with trolling trash

Edited December 10, 2010 by pkspeaker

[Ulysses G.]

Ulyses G....

SItes like "JewishWorldReview" and "actionforisrael.org are not legitimate sources for information or facts, you can't verify, trust, or believe anything that is written in editorial on a right-wing zionist propaganda site.

It seems to be me that you have mostly just made up your own version of "history" with no links to any of it, but anything by a Jewish person is not acceptable? They tend to write some of the best histories and plenty are left-wing and pro-Palestinian. When they stick to historical facts that are in all the legitimate history books - with foot notes from unbiased sources - they are perfectly reputable sources and most do.

By the way, British and Ottoman census data is notoriously inaccurate and any unbiased historian will say so - but I'm sure that you know that - and one sentence of relevant content from Fox News in 2006 - that never happened - does not prove much of anything.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Pakboong]

As the links that I have provided point out, there are tons of fake quotes that are used to discredit Israel and some of them have been posted on Thai Visa by members who either did not know or did not care that they were not true.

It seems like someone who was posting quotes that are very possibly either fake or distorted from their original meaning would want to know that.

I guess the question that begs an answer would be: Why are there so many fake quotes on the internet about Israel? What is the motive for so many to go to so much trouble to attack the Israelis in such a manner?

It would probably be something along the lines of all the racist fake documents - Like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion - that are all over the web to discredit the Jews or it could be something like the fake "studies' on the Klu Klux Klan websites that claim that non-whites are inferior beings.

There is no justification for posting lies on the Internet.

As far as racist fake documents on the web; IMO where you find the infomation doesn't mean it is not true. If I happen to read the article about the rabbis who this week signed a document condeming Jews for renting to Arabs in a conspiracy web-site right below UFO's and next to Bigfoot, does not mean it did not happen or wasn't said. Each individual has to judge these kinds of happenings based upon their own experiences.

The business of rabbis and not renting to Arabs did happen, it was racist and it was condemed by the Israeli government. Problem is, these guys represent a large following who believe as they do. No amount of retraction can fix that. I don't really care about any of it, only the hypocracy of it all.

On top of it all, several of these rabbis were roported to work for the Israeli government.

So to talk about anti-semitism as an evil in the face of signed confessions of blatant racism by a bunch of rabbis is pretty silly from where I sit. But I am confident you will have a sarcastic way to dismiss this matter.

As for the Protocols, there is no real evidence that they were actually fake. There are allegations they were a forgery and others that they were plagerized. Neither of these accusations guarantee the allegations of falsehood. One has to look back at what he/she knows/believes and judge for him or herself.

Then one has to factor in the Mark Twain qoute: "The problem ain't what a man doesn't know, it is what he knows for sure that ain't so"

Most references to the Protocals being fake were published by Time Magazine, now a Jewish owned publication. Despite all the controversy over the Protocols, Hitler was named Time Man of the Year in 1938 despite his references to the Protocols in "Mein Kampf" by the same Magazine.

There are more than a few anomlies in this matter. We are left only with our own thoughts on the subject.

[Ulysses G.]

As for the Protocols, there is no real evidence that they were actually fake. There are allegations they were a forgery and others that they were plagerized. Neither of these accusations guarantee the allegations of falsehood. One has to look back at what he/she knows/believes and judge for him or herself.

Then one has to factor in the Mark Twain qoute: "The problem ain't what a man doesn't know, it is what he knows for sure that ain't so"

Most references to the Protocals being fake were published by Time Magazine, now a Jewish owned publication. Despite all the controversy over the Protocols, Hitler was named Time Man of the Year in 1938 despite his references to the Protocols in "Mein Kampf" by the same Magazine.

There are more than a few anomlies in this matter. We are left only with our own thoughts on the subject.

Thank you. You have made it pretty obvious where your sympathies lay. There are also many doubts about the Jewish Holocaust among the people who believe that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is genuine. Maybe you can contribute some unbiased informative comments on that as well.

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a fraudulent antisemitic text purporting to describe a Jewish plan to achieve global domination. The text was fabricated in the Russian Empire, and was first published in 1903. The text was translated into several languages and widely disseminated in the early part of the twentieth century. Henry Ford published the text in The International Jew, and it was widely distributed in the United States. In 1921, a series of articles printed in The Times revealed that the text was a fraud, and some of the material was plagiarized from earlier works of political satire unrelated to Jews. The Protocols purports to document the minutes of a late 19th century meeting attended by world Jewish leaders conspiring to take over the world; it describes their plans to subvert the morals of the non-Jewish world, to control the world's economies, to control the press, andultimatelyto take over the world. The Protocols is still widely available today on the Internet and in print in numerous languages

http://en.wikipedia...._Elders_of_Zion

What does the fact that Time Magazine NOW has Jewish owners - according to you - have to do with them exposing The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in the distant past?

Most references to the Protocals being fake were published by Time Magazine, now a Jewish owned publication.

By the way, being named 'Man of the Year" is not necessarily meant to be compliment. It is the most newsworthy person and the Ayatollah Khomeini also won it.

Every December, Time names a "Person of the Year"the individual or entity that, in the magazine's estimation, has had the greatest impact on the news either for good or for ill.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[hammered]

I find all the Jewish conspiracy stuff distasteful even though of course it is a persons right to freedom of speech. But to my mind there is a difference between attacking the Israeli government and its policies and labelling all Jews or Israelis as...... In fact doing so ultimately devalues the arguement against the government and its policies which may be totally legitimate

[Ulysses G.]

As has been demonstrated on these very forums. many of the anti-Israeli types also believe in Jewish conspiracy theories and such. At least the mods have stopped all the posts blaming the Jews for Germany's downfall and the Holocaust that were fairly common a few months ago.

[hammered]

As has been demonstrated on these very forums. many of the anti-Israeli types also believe in Jewish conspiracy theories and such. At least the mods have stopped all the posts blaming the Jews for Germany's downfall and the Holocaust that were fairly common a few months ago.

As you may have noticed, I have little time for the Israeli government and their actions;) However, to my mind to label all Israeli citizens (some are Arabs, some are communists) in the same boat is stupid and to label all Jews is insane. Conspiracy theories involving a whole nation or people or religious or ethnic group is ludicrous.

[kuffki]

One cannot view the comments concerning the recognition of Palestine as unbiased given the facts reported in the above article.

There are loons in every country. Just read some of the comments on Thai Visa.

The Palestinian Arabs will get their own state when they recognize Israel's right to exist, stop the suicide bombings and shooting rockets at civilians and agree to peace.

This is about ' Argentina recognizing Palestine as an independent state'.

A respected man is less likely to turn into a suicide bomber who has nothing to lose.

You missed little point, Argentina did not recognize Palestine as is, it recognized Palestine as it was prior to 1967. A lot has happened since 1967.

Howe do you come up with conclusion that Palestinians are not respected??? the ones living in their home,working and going on with their life have no troubles with Israel, the ones who REALLY have no problem with Israel and have little more brain then to fall to all the brain washing by the terrorists, move to Israel and become Arab-Israeli citizens, living normal life, and the ones who constantly strive to kill civilians DO NOT deserve any respect anyway.

Unless of course you trying to advocate that terrorists should be praised and recognised

[kuffki]

You have to earn respect and bombing cafes full of innocent men, women and children is not going to do it.

When the Palestinian Arabs recognize Israel and make peace they can will be on their way to earning the respect that they crave as well as their own country.

B'Tselem: Since 2000, 7,454 Israelis, Palestinians killed

By JPOST.COM STAFF 09/27/2010 12:55

According to human rights group report, 6,371 Palestinian, 1,083 Israeli causalities during armed conflict in last 10 years.

Since September 29th, 2000, 6,371 Palestinians have been killed and 1,083 Israelis according to a report by B'Tselem on the casualties of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict released on Monday.

According to the report, 1,317 of the 6,371 Palestinians were minors, at least 2,996 of them did not take part in fighting when they died and 2,193 died while they participated in fighting. B'Tselem said it was unaware whether 694 of the Palestinians did or did not take part in fighting. Two-hundred and forty-eight were Palestinian police officers who died in Operation Cast Lead and 240 were targets of assassination.

"Palestinians killed 1,083 Israelis in Israel and in the territories in the last 10 years," said B'Tselem. "Seven-hundred and forty-one of the killed were citizens, 124 of them were minors, and 342 were security personnel."

...

http://www.jpost.com....aspx?id=189392

For the millionth time, when rockets are hidden and fired from school and civilian homes, there is no one to blame but those allowing terrorist to use their premises to store and launch rockets.

No one is stopping Hammas from creating a proper army, developing bomb shelters and all other infrastructure,there sure is enough money pouring into the region to do just that. instead for few decades they chose to strike civilians and be a terrorist organization

[kuffki]

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

LMAO, may i please have a link to that rubbish.

I would love more then anything to read FACT that Israeli prime minister 70 odd years ago said that he can not blame Nazi's for anything.

[hammered]

You have to earn respect and bombing cafes full of innocent men, women and children is not going to do it.

When the Palestinian Arabs recognize Israel and make peace they can will be on their way to earning the respect that they crave as well as their own country.

B'Tselem: Since 2000, 7,454 Israelis, Palestinians killed

By JPOST.COM STAFF 09/27/2010 12:55

According to human rights group report, 6,371 Palestinian, 1,083 Israeli causalities during armed conflict in last 10 years.

Since September 29th, 2000, 6,371 Palestinians have been killed and 1,083 Israelis according to a report by B'Tselem on the casualties of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict released on Monday.

According to the report, 1,317 of the 6,371 Palestinians were minors, at least 2,996 of them did not take part in fighting when they died and 2,193 died while they participated in fighting. B'Tselem said it was unaware whether 694 of the Palestinians did or did not take part in fighting. Two-hundred and forty-eight were Palestinian police officers who died in Operation Cast Lead and 240 were targets of assassination.

"Palestinians killed 1,083 Israelis in Israel and in the territories in the last 10 years," said B'Tselem. "Seven-hundred and forty-one of the killed were citizens, 124 of them were minors, and 342 were security personnel."

...

http://www.jpost.com....aspx?id=189392

For the millionth time, when rockets are hidden and fired from school and civilian homes, there is no one to blame but those allowing terrorist to use their premises to store and launch rockets.

No one is stopping Hammas from creating a proper army, developing bomb shelters and all other infrastructure,there sure is enough money pouring into the region to do just that. instead for few decades they chose to strike civilians and be a terrorist organization

The Israeli military machine have killed a lot more civilians than Hamas. A leaked (not by wikileaks) CIA assessment of the disastorus (to use their words)Israeli performance against Hezbollah in 2006 had as one of its conclusions that an army that had become accustomed to acting agaisnt civilians lost its cutting edge when opposed by committed and trained fighters.

[kuffki]

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

The Internet is full of hate-sites using fake quotes to discredit Israel. This one is on most of them and is impossible to prove, because it was reported by a single individual long after Ben Gurion had died.

Amid the Arab-Israeli conflicts, there has emerged a practice of quoting several Israeli-Zionist by their detractors in order to defame them. This practice has evolved into a phenomenon of its own, where many sources such as David Ickes website ^[1], Radio Islam ^[2], whatreallyhappened.com ^[3], CounterPunch^[4], Rense.com^[5] islamonline.net^[6] and many more use this kinds of quotes, some of them creating entire list of such quotes. This article aims at representing this phenomenon.

This phenomena usually includes the practice of quoting Israeli Prime Ministers. The statements are widely quoted, although it is often unclear whether the statements have been correctly reported. Therefore, such statements should not be assumed to be authentic when they are from unreliable sources, since there are scenarios were they are arguably fabricated propaganda.

• by people hostile to Israel in order to defame Israeli motives
• by people friendly to Israel, in order to disscredit people who choose to use the fabricated quotes

In places where the quotes are authentic and properly sourced, they could be taken out of context and thus lose their original intended meaning. Sometimes, these quotes can constitute Cherry picking or Quote mining. Thus, these quotes should not be taken as a representation of all of the Israeli and Zionist views.Overview

http://en.wikipedia....li_and_Zionists

Exposing False Zionist Quotes (Quote Busters)

Did Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon vow to burn Palestinian children and rape Arabic girls? Did former Israeli leader Menachem Begin refer to Palestinians as "two-legged beasts," and did another Israeli leader declare that all Arabs must be killed unless they are willing to live as slaves?

No, but given the number of Web sites repeating these allegations, it is easy to see how this nonsense has gained credence. Indeed, the attribution of invidious statements to Israel's leaders has become a popular stratagem among Israel's enemies. Many are fabricated, taken out of context or otherwise manipulated to present a distorted, negative view of Zionist intentions and actions. Propagated on the internet, some of these misquotes eventually make their way into opinion columns in campus newspapers and even, on occasion, the mainstream press.

http://www.camera.or...1&x_article=766

So I guess you would have us believe that anything written that is negative about Israel has to be phony and anything written that is negative about Iran has to be factual. Even you can't make any sense of that.

No not everything, but some rubbish which not only makes hardly any sense, historically incorrect but suggests lunacy-then yeah that would be phony

[kuffki]

Palestinians have recognized israel repeatedly during the oslo process, Israel has never recognized Palestine or defined it's own borders, and it is a racist aphartied state in which the Palestinians are confined to ghettos that are about 10% of the state, mostly impoverished slums they are denied equal access to water, power, land; it is impossible for Palestinians to travel from gaza to the other bantustans in the west bank and difficult for travel within the wwb making the whole thing like a big prison. oh and I almost forgot, during the oslo process israel tripled the number of settlers in the west bank and demolished thousands of homes in east jerusalem as part of an ethnic cleansing campaign and have repeatedly confiscated additional palestinian agricultural land for jewish settlements..

You can only imagine what kind of violence would ensue if say, america (or europe) had this type of segregationist policy toward blacks and hispanics, we had a massive riot in los angeles in the early 90's just because a black motorist was beaten by (mostly) white cops, and forget about the fact that "Palestinian Arabs" are the indigenous population and Israelis are mostly recent european settlers, or that 800,000 palestinians were forced out of their country in 1948(losing everything they had) so that israel could be craeted for these recent european immigrants, and forget about the fact that between 1967-1987 there were no rockets or suicide bombers or rock throwingfrom the Palestinians in the West bank or gaza and Israel built all these settlements and jewish only roads on mostly privatly owned Palestinian land, makeing life for ordinary palestinians increasingly difficult with every passing year until tensions reached a climax in 1987 with the first intefada which was almost entirely rock throwing, israel then tried to crush the uprising using live rounds killing thousands of Palestinian youths that were throwing stones at heavily armed army personel and armored vehicles..

One cannot view the comments concerning the recognition of Palestine as unbiased given the facts reported in the above article.

There are loons in every country. Just read some of the comments on Thai Visa.

The Palestinian Arabs will get their own state when they recognize Israel's right to exist, stop the suicide bombings and shooting rockets at civilians and agree to peace.

Really??? could you please provide a link where Palestinians recognized Israel, and not the people but the Government