Credit Card Debts

[wilsonf]

My Thai Girlfriend has a credit card problem, nothing new you probably say. She is 35, a widow (husband died in auto accident) has a son (5yrs), Held a good position in large company for 8 yrs until global downturn led to redundancy. Had to move from home to secure reasonably paid job. Has five credit cards and owes around 180,000Bt. I don't know how this debt was acrued. Her current salary after living expenses and payments to parents for looking after son leaves her with less than 500bt a month most times less. Naturally she has been unable to service these card debts, some of the lenders have threatened court action in phone calls and urged and frightened her into borrowing off friends to make a payment, which has only made her situation worse, as she now owes money to friends she can not repay.

I constructed a letter which she sent to each of the lenders, plus a spreadsheet, with copy payslips showing that she had no money to make payments, and asking for advice from the lenders about what she could do. At the time of writing this post only one has responded by phone, and their 'advice' was that she should 'try' to make a payment, which was exactly what the letter explained she could not do.

I have looked at various sites dealing with information on bankruptsy and it appears you can not apply for personal bankruptsy if you owe less than one million baht.

I am about to construct a further letter to those who diod not reply, plus one to the lender that did.

Has any member any experience of dealing with a situation like this and could offer advice.

I am trying to build up some dialogue with the lenders, so that if legal action was taken against her, she would be able to show that she had made efforts to seek advice from the lenders in how to resolve the situation. It would be pointless the lenders taking legal action, as she has no assets that could be levied on.

I know the easiest solution would be for me to pay off these debts, but that is a road taken by many others in similar situations to their loss and detriment, and one I do not want to go down, but otherwise am trying to do my best to convince the lenders that they have no chance of recovering their debt, in the faint hope that eventually they might realise this and write it off as a bad debt.

[tonititan]

My guess is that you're going to get a lot of advice telling you to dump her and find another girlfriend. Obviously that's not what you want, though, so I hope you can find some answers. Being in debt stinks, and lots of people find themselves in that situation for reasons other than being frivolous. Good luck!

[RKASA]

"appears you can not apply for personal bankruptsy if you owe less than one million baht."

Barrow another 820,000 then file. That' ll learn'em :jap:

[Soutpeel]

"appears you can not apply for personal bankruptsy if you owe less than one million baht."

Barrow another 820,000 then file. That' ll learn'em :jap:

And they would most likely be daft enough to give it to her...

So very apparant she cant pay the debt, so..

A. You help her out and pay the debt (then cut up all the C/C)

B. Let them take legal action, if she has no money, they may get the judgement, but they are still not getting their money back (this is a civil case, therefore she cant go to jail)

C. Pay them THB 10.00/m...she is at least attempting to service the debt.

[Xonax]

Most important is to keep quiet about that she has a Farang boyfriend. If they ever get to know about this, they will keep hunting her untill you pay, which you wisely have decided not to do. Quite a few Thai women try to find a Farang boyfriend, for the purpose to solve their own or their familys financial problems.

If she dont own anything, that can be sold to raise money, just let them take her to court. They cannot take something that she havent got.

Alternatively, as another member suggests, offer them 10.00 or even 100.00 Baht per month each, in order to show her good will, and let them know, that if her job-situation should change to the better (the crisis is not that bad in Thailand), she will increase the payments accordingly. Promise to keep them updated on her income situation every 3-6 months.

Would have been nice to know, how much her reasonably payed job pays off each month, and how high her living expenses and payments to parents are though. If she was unable to make any savings, when she held the good position in a large company for 8 years, and even had to create a debt of 180,000.00 Baht, she could just be spending too much for living expenses and parents.

Best wishes!

[wilsonf]

Most important is to keep quiet about that she has a Farang boyfriend. If they ever get to know about this, they will keep hunting her untill you pay, which you wisely have decided not to do. Quite a few Thai women try to find a Farang boyfriend, for the purpose to solve their own or their familys financial problems.

If she dont own anything, that can be sold to raise money, just let them take her to court. They cannot take something that she havent got.

Alternatively, as another member suggests, offer them 10.00 or even 100.00 Baht per month each, in order to show her good will, and let them know, that if her job-situation should change to the better (the crisis is not that bad in Thailand), she will increase the payments accordingly. Promise to keep them updated on her income situation every 3-6 months.

Would have been nice to know, how much her reasonably payed job pays off each month, and how high her living expenses and payments to parents are though. If she was unable to make any savings, when she held the good position in a large company for 8 years, and even had to create a debt of 180,000.00 Baht, she could just be spending too much for living expenses and parents.

Best wishes!

Having prepared the spreadsheet indicating her income over expenditure, I can say she is certainly not spending too much on her living expenses, out of her income she has to pay the school fees for her son, and also pays an insurance policy in respect of her son, an amount is paid to her parents to cover the cost of looking after her son whilst she has to work away from home, which includes feeding and clothing him, and also includes an amount that repays the government for her own school fees that were incurred. She has to pay for her room as she is working away, and her own living expenses which includes food, clothing and any other living expenses is only 2,000 Bt a month. Her only extravagance if you could call it that, is the cost of a return bus ticket once a month to go home to see her son. I am unsure of how such a large debt was accrued, but some may have come following the death of her husband some five years ago, I know that her position with having five cards came about as a result of not being able to service the debt on the first card, so a second was taken out to pay the first, then a third to pay the second, etc. a familiar story I am afraid. Plus of course the debt may have reached this amount because of interest added, or penalties for late or none payment if they have these in Thailand, so the original debt could have been considerably less.

The payment of a small amount each month would I agree show some willingness, but probably would not even cover any monthly interest charges so despite making a payment, the debt would continue to grow. The cards themselves have been destroyed some time ago.

I could quite easily discharge these debts for her, but will not for two reasons, firstly this would make me the loser, as her financial position would preclude her from being able to repay me, secondly because of all the problems this is creating for her, and the worry of not being able to service the debt and the possibility of being persued legally by the card companies, she is learning a valuable lesson of not incurring debts you cannot repay which appears to be a Thai trait.

[Benjie]

If she can rack up debts of nearly 200,000 baht with less than 500 baht free a month after living expenses I wonder what she can do with a Farang Husband later on.

[Xircal]

If she means anything to you, then clear the debt for her. You sound like you can afford it. I'm sure she's learned her lesson already and is unlikely to be able to obtain another credit card since she will have been labelled as a bad debt already.

If she doesn't mean anything to you, then leave her and let her sort her own problems out.

[Soutpeel]

I could quite easily discharge these debts for her, but will not for two reasons, firstly this would make me the loser, as her financial position would preclude her from being able to repay me, secondly because of all the problems this is creating for her, and the worry of not being able to service the debt and the possibility of being persued legally by the card companies, she is learning a valuable lesson of not incurring debts you cannot repay which appears to be a Thai trait.

Are we talking about an adult or child her ?......you make it sound like you are trying teach a child a lesson...its very patronising...

[Benjie]

If she means anything to you, then clear the debt for her. You sound like you can afford it. I'm sure she's learned her lesson already and is unlikely to be able to obtain another credit card since she will have been labelled as a bad debt already.

If she doesn't mean anything to you, then leave her and let her sort her own problems out.

How would clearing the debt (including I'm sure all sorts of interest / fees) label it as bad debt? They'd probably double her limit.

[james24]

I'm not sure how it works in Thailand but you might have a case against the people that gave her a loan. There have been alot of stories in the Uk where courts have written debts off simply because of the lending companies lending money to people who could never afford it.

I wouldnt bail her out though, although its nice to do something for someone you love you're better off teaching her something new because if you don't learn from your mistakes youll just do it again, wherever you come from.

[Derifo]

My guess is that you're going to get a lot of advice telling you to dump her and find another girlfriend. Obviously that's not what you want, though, so I hope you can find some answers. Being in debt stinks, and lots of people find themselves in that situation for reasons other than being frivolous. Good luck!

They'll keep calling and threatening her, but they can't arrest her, and they can't do anything to her. They'll end up making deals with her to pay half or something.

This is not new. You can pay if you want to, but if you don't, don't be bothered by all those calls.

[Soutpeel]

I'm not sure how it works in Thailand but you might have a case against the people that gave her a loan. There have been alot of stories in the Uk where courts have written debts off simply because of the lending companies lending money to people who could never afford it.

I wouldnt bail her out though, although its nice to do something for someone you love you're better off teaching her something new because if you don't learn from your mistakes youll just do it again, wherever you come from.

But my dear James we are not in the UK in case you had not noticed, there will be no case to have.

I personally think the OP attitude to this problem is both pompus and arrogant, what happens because of worry over the debt, the lady concerned does something more drastic ?

Although not advocating he just opens his wallet and pays the debt in full, one would expect if he actually cares about the lady concerned then he would helping with some small monthly contribution to get the C/C companies off her back, may not so much for the sake of the lady herself, but for her child.

He would of course make the payment directly to the parties concerned and if it appears the lady in question is taking the p*ss, then stop paying

If he is not prepared to make a small effort to help (sorry a spreadsheet, doesnt count) then he should just walk away from the person concerned and stop trying to "teach someone a lesson"

[tonititan]

They'll keep calling and threatening her, but they can't arrest her, and they can't do anything to her. They'll end up making deals with her to pay half or something.

This is not new. You can pay if you want to, but if you don't, don't be bothered by all those calls.

I get really frustrated about this. (Derifo....I don't mean you, I mean the "culture of debt" in many countries. I'm also not referring to the OP's situation specifically.)

I completely understand how people make mistakes and get into terrible situations involving debt. I also empathize with how stressful massive debt can be. I've been there myself. But I hear too many people saying things like "I don't have to pay my debt - they can't do anything" or "I don't have the money for bills. I will just ignore it" or "Shouldn't my debt be cleared after 10 years?" They scream and yell at debt collectors and companies, as if, how dare they ask me for their money back? I just don't understand that. Loans (including credit cards) are not free money! By not paying back the banks, people with this sense of entitlement could be making it more expensive for the rest of us. The banks have to get the money back somehow, perhaps by giving the rest of us higher interest rates or more fees.

About 5-6 years ago, I had racked up about 1 million baht in debt in my home country. That was awful. I worked like crazy to live cheaply, work extra, and pay off the debt. I gave up things I really wanted, and even things I needed. Maybe I'm just annoyed that I had to make huge sacrifices to pay off my debt, and I don't think it's "fair" that other people can be frivolous, run out of money, borrow more money, then get away with not paying it back. Ok, vent over.

I would also like to politely disagree with the posters who have said that the OP's girlfriend will never learn. I sure did, and I've never accumulated any debt since I paid it all off. I am determined never to end up in that situation again. I believe that I would feel the same way had someone paid off all my debt for me - I will never forget how hopeless I felt. Some people really do learn from their mistakes.

[JUDAS]

They'll keep calling and threatening her, but they can't arrest her, and they can't do anything to her. They'll end up making deals with her to pay half or something.

This is not new. You can pay if you want to, but if you don't, don't be bothered by all those calls.

I get really frustrated about this. (Derifo....I don't mean you, I mean the "culture of debt" in many countries. I'm also not referring to the OP's situation specifically.)

I completely understand how people make mistakes and get into terrible situations involving debt. I also empathize with how stressful massive debt can be. I've been there myself. But I hear too many people saying things like "I don't have to pay my debt - they can't do anything" or "I don't have the money for bills. I will just ignore it" or "Shouldn't my debt be cleared after 10 years?" They scream and yell at debt collectors and companies, as if, how dare they ask me for their money back? I just don't understand that. Loans (including credit cards) are not free money! By not paying back the banks, people with this sense of entitlement could be making it more expensive for the rest of us. The banks have to get the money back somehow, perhaps by giving the rest of us higher interest rates or more fees.

About 5-6 years ago, I had racked up about 1 million baht in debt in my home country. That was awful. I worked like crazy to live cheaply, work extra, and pay off the debt. I gave up things I really wanted, and even things I needed. Maybe I'm just annoyed that I had to make huge sacrifices to pay off my debt, and I don't think it's "fair" that other people can be frivolous, run out of money, borrow more money, then get away with not paying it back. Ok, vent over.

I would also like to politely disagree with the posters who have said that the OP's girlfriend will never learn. I sure did, and I've never accumulated any debt since I paid it all off. I am determined never to end up in that situation again. I believe that I would feel the same way had someone paid off all my debt for me - I will never forget how hopeless I felt. Some people really do learn from their mistakes.

Completely agree with you tonititan. A poster mentioned in the UK that some loans etc had been written of by the govt/courts etc as it was obvious the borrower was never going to be able to afford it in the first place! Whatever happened to personal responsibility!!

[wilsonf]

I could quite easily discharge these debts for her, but will not for two reasons, firstly this would make me the loser, as her financial position would preclude her from being able to repay me, secondly because of all the problems this is creating for her, and the worry of not being able to service the debt and the possibility of being persued legally by the card companies, she is learning a valuable lesson of not incurring debts you cannot repay which appears to be a Thai trait.

Are we talking about an adult or child her ?......you make it sound like you are trying teach a child a lesson...its very patronising...

Would you be suggesting that by making her realise that if you can't afford to pay for something, you don't buy it, or if you are unable to repay a loan, then you don't take it on, that it is I that am in the wrong?

[wilsonf]

If she means anything to you, then clear the debt for her. You sound like you can afford it. I'm sure she's learned her lesson already and is unlikely to be able to obtain another credit card since she will have been labelled as a bad debt already.

If she doesn't mean anything to you, then leave her and let her sort her own problems out.

Does this mean you should restrict your efforts to help others who have problems, only to those you have an emotional involvement with?

[jts-khorat]

I don't know how this debt was acrued

Would that not be the most important question, before you involve yourself?

As she seems to have debts from different sources, it would seem important to me to get an idea how much each,and how they differ in urgency and reason.

As somebody else suggested, making it not known that she has a foreigner as boyfriend would be rule No 1, so assumption is, that the letters you drafted were in Thai.

[sarahsbloke]

I can say she is certainly not spending too much on her living expenses, out of her income she has to pay the school fees for her son, and also pays an insurance policy in respect of her son, an amount is paid to her parents to cover the cost of looking after her son whilst she has to work away from home, which includes feeding and clothing him, and also includes an amount that repays the government for her own school fees that were incurred.

Quite clearly she is living above her means, there is no reason she needs to pay school fees. State school in Thailand is free.

Private schools are for those that have money to spare. Many children from poor families leave school at age 12 and go out to work.

You say she owes 180kbht .... so how much are the school fees??

or

Why not just make her repayments for her direct to the companies, but remove her credit cards from her so she can't spend more.

If she stops being your gf .... you stop paying .....

Edited December 11, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[jts-khorat]

I personally think the OP attitude to this problem is both pompus and arrogant, what happens because of worry over the debt, the lady concerned does something more drastic ?

Although not advocating he just opens his wallet and pays the debt in full, one would expect if he actually cares about the lady concerned then he would helping with some small monthly contribution to get the C/C companies off her back, may not so much for the sake of the lady herself, but for her child.

Instead of paying a debt which might just have been accrued totally frivolous (we do not know so far), the better financial contribution -- if it has to come down to that -- would be for the OP to pay the "fixed costs" like the school fees for the son and other minor living costs. They would become his responsibility anyway, if the relationship should become more serious.

This would allow the woman to do something about her debt free from worries about her family and immediate basic needs, and within a few months, it will be easy to see if she actually has learned something and is willing to do something serious to get out of debt.

To flies with one hit: help will have been provided and lessons will be learned at the same time.

[jts-khorat]

Quite clearly she is living above her means, there is no reason she needs to pay school fees.

Why not just make her repayments for her direct to the companies, but remove her credit cards from her so she can't spend more.

From the posts of the OP:

1) the woman is 35, so the school fees would be for education already received. Nothing frivolous about that, private schools and the universities of Thailand can be very expensive.

2) the credit cards have already been destroyed, so that no additional debt can be created.

[bubblehead]

I'm not sure how it works in Thailand but you might have a case against the people that gave her a loan. There have been alot of stories in the Uk where courts have written debts off simply because of the lending companies lending money to people who could never afford it.

I wouldnt bail her out though, although its nice to do something for someone you love you're better off teaching her something new because if you don't learn from your mistakes youll just do it again, wherever you come from.

But my dear James we are not in the UK in case you had not noticed, there will be no case to have.

I personally think the OP attitude to this problem is both pompus and arrogant, what happens because of worry over the debt, the lady concerned does something more drastic ?

Although not advocating he just opens his wallet and pays the debt in full, one would expect if he actually cares about the lady concerned then he would helping with some small monthly contribution to get the C/C companies off her back, may not so much for the sake of the lady herself, but for her child.

He would of course make the payment directly to the parties concerned and if it appears the lady in question is taking the p*ss, then stop paying

If he is not prepared to make a small effort to help (sorry a spreadsheet, doesnt count) then he should just walk away from the person concerned and stop trying to "teach someone a lesson"

Well said

[bubblehead]

Not meaning to sound negative but I have a friend who was in a similar situation. It turned out the husband was very much alive and the debts were incured gambling amongst other things (much more than 180,000). Just out of interest. Where did you meet her and how long have you been together?

[loansharknwm]

I work in the USA and I provide bankruptcy alternatives. I'm curious to know how the debt collection process works in Thailand and the rest of asia for that matter, is it at all similar to how we do things in the states? If it is, are there debt settlement companies that provide those services there? Or is their credit system set up to where they can garnish wages for unsecured debts or something unfair like that? If anyones knows about this and could chime in, I'd appreciate it...Thanks

[Soutpeel]

I work in the USA and I provide bankruptcy alternatives. I'm curious to know how the debt collection process works in Thailand and the rest of asia for that matter, is it at all similar to how we do things in the states? If it is, are there debt settlement companies that provide those services there? Or is their credit system set up to where they can garnish wages for unsecured debts or something unfair like that? If anyones knows about this and could chime in, I'd appreciate it...Thanks

Depends on who the debt is with, but in some cases can result in "broken legs" or even death as a means of debt settlement...

Dont beleive there is a facility to garish wages in any shape of form, getting a judgement against someone does not mean you get your money

[loansharknwm]

I work in the USA and I provide bankruptcy alternatives. I'm curious to know how the debt collection process works in Thailand and the rest of asia for that matter, is it at all similar to how we do things in the states? If it is, are there debt settlement companies that provide those services there? Or is their credit system set up to where they can garnish wages for unsecured debts or something unfair like that? If anyones knows about this and could chime in, I'd appreciate it...Thanks

Depends on who the debt is with, but in some cases can result in "broken legs" or even death as a means of debt settlement...

Dont beleive there is a facility to garish wages in any shape of form, getting a judgement against someone does not mean you get your money

You're telling me that credit card companies send people to break legs over there!? I'm sure loansharks and organized crime operate like that there, but if major banks are working like that over there then that would make a hell of a "60 minutes" journalism piece to be made. Are there only Thai banks that back credit cards in Thailand? Or are large creditors like Wells Fargo, JP Morgan and the like offering cards there?

[sarahsbloke]

Quite clearly she is living above her means, there is no reason she needs to pay school fees.

Why not just make her repayments for her direct to the companies, but remove her credit cards from her so she can't spend more.

From the posts of the OP:

1) the woman is 35, so the school fees would be for education already received. Nothing frivolous about that, private schools and the universities of Thailand can be very expensive.

2) the credit cards have already been destroyed, so that no additional debt can be created.

........ she has to pay the school fees for her son ..........

from the Ops second post, and I'm going to guess the sons school fees would be enough to repay the loans

I have to say that when I read these posts, I'm pretty sure the woman is running a scam on the white man.

Why ....... because it's always an outstretched hand asking for money, and never a person asking for sensible financial advice.

Edited December 11, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Soutpeel]

<BR>

<BR>

<BR>I work in the USA and I provide bankruptcy alternatives. I'm curious to know how the debt collection process works in Thailand and the rest of asia for that matter, is it at all similar to how we do things in the states? If it is, are there debt settlement companies that provide those services there? Or is their credit system set up to where they can garnish wages for unsecured debts or something unfair like that? If anyones knows about this and could chime in, I'd appreciate it...Thanks<BR>

<BR><BR>Depends on who the debt is with, but in some cases can result in "broken legs" or even death as a means of debt settlement...<IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/whistling.gif"> <BR><BR>Dont beleive there is a facility to garish wages in any shape of form, getting a judgement against someone does not mean you get your money<BR>

<BR><BR><BR>You're telling me that credit card companies send people to break legs over there!? I'm sure loansharks and organized crime operate like that there, but if major banks are working like that over there then that would make a hell of a "60 minutes" journalism piece to be made. Are there only Thai banks that back credit cards in Thailand? Or are large creditors like Wells Fargo, JP Morgan and the like offering cards there?<BR>

<BR><BR>I was referring to loansharks as regards the broken legs and death....<IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif">.....very relevant here as there are a lot of people here wouldnt get any form of credit with a Thai and the loan sharks are the only option.<BR><BR>Virtually all banks in Thailand are Thai banks, a few international ones...HSBC/Citi/Standard Chartered etc are here, as far as i understand if you default on a credit card, there will be a civil judgement against you and there are companies that will try an collect, but certainly no garnishing, but there would be attachment of property if applicable.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>

[RAZZELL]

I'm not sure how it works in Thailand but you might have a case against the people that gave her a loan. There have been alot of stories in the Uk where courts have written debts off simply because of the lending companies lending money to people who could never afford it.

I wouldnt bail her out though, although its nice to do something for someone you love you're better off teaching her something new because if you don't learn from your mistakes youll just do it again, wherever you come from.

But my dear James we are not in the UK in case you had not noticed, there will be no case to have.

I personally think the OP attitude to this problem is both pompus and arrogant, what happens because of worry over the debt, the lady concerned does something more drastic ?

Although not advocating he just opens his wallet and pays the debt in full, one would expect if he actually cares about the lady concerned then he would helping with some small monthly contribution to get the C/C companies off her back, may not so much for the sake of the lady herself, but for her child.

He would of course make the payment directly to the parties concerned and if it appears the lady in question is taking the p*ss, then stop paying

If he is not prepared to make a small effort to help (sorry a spreadsheet, doesnt count) then he should just walk away from the person concerned and stop trying to "teach someone a lesson"

Totally agree.

Maybe it was the husband who ran up debt? Maybe the cost of his funeral? Who know's?

I think if the OP can afford it and he cares about his gf he should help her out.

Debt is terribly stressful...If afterward's she hasn't "learnt her lesson" then walk away.

RAZZ

[Patronus]

Did I miss where the 180,000 Baht had been spent ?