Briton Found Naked, Tied To The Bars Of A Cell In Pattaya Police Station

[caf]

Ok, now that there has been a clarification of some facts, the 4 visits, the bringing of food and water, can people stop blaming the embassy/consul for a situation it cannot control? The detention and manner of detention is entirely under the control of the Thais. The consul/embassy cannot wave a magic wand and have him released. The key issue is the manner in which the mentally ill are treated and managed. Even if the subject was released, then what? Who was going to care for him? We cannot force people to get help without a court process and order. It's really not a viable option here is it ?here are limited mental health resources available in Thailand.

The UK taxpayers have made clear their views on the provision of services in foreign countries: They want the services cut back. Consuls and embassies have to find ways around that. I'm sure the consul was just as distressed and frustrated by the situation as anyone in here is, but he cannot change Thai procedures. All he can do is to try and use moral suasion and work within the existing rules to help a man that doesn't want help. The consul does not run daycare facilities. Fortunately a good samaritan came forward. If people are that upset, go make a donation at her charity to cover her costs.

.Just by bringing the case to light, Mr. Drummond has done an important service and for that I thank him. However, finger pointing by anyone will not address the oozing abscess that mental health care is in Thailand. The Drummond article may cause some foreigners to think about a tragic situation and consider ways to help, whether it be volunteering or by donating or even just by being good samaritans. Hopefully, the consul can get together with other consuls and develop a common strategy to confront the situation as it relates to visitors and expats. With the aging population, senile dementia and other age related problems are going to be a common occurrence. The next person chained up could be an elderly neighbour suffering from alzheimers or anyone of us suffering from a health issue.

Think big picture please.

Good penultimate paragraph but nowhere has it been assumed he did not want help. And don't automatically accept anything Miller says. His latest post is an embarrassment to the UK foreign office. Diplomatic he is not. He should concentrate on his business interests and not use his tourist police and embassy "job" to further his own interests.

[personchester]

Do you suppose that a Thai in similar circumstances in the UK illegally would be stripped naked and chained to the bars?

The only bars he would be chained to in the UK would be night-club-bars at the West End of London.

[raylo]

What appalls me about it are the conditions he is found in.

Clearly neglected, denied dignity, medical treatment or assessmnet he is ignored by all at the Police Staion. That is, the highest ranking Police Officer runs the station in such a way that this kind of inhumane treatment is accepted.

It is a disgrace. It is unacceptable. Is is unpardonable.

However, when you are in the hands of the uneducated, ignorant and dangerous police that is what can happen. Furthermore, when there is no rule of law; when there are no checks or balances in place; when no one cares; when such corruption is rife; then, this is the result.

The British Embassy should make a fuss. It will privately but it would take something of the order of a WickiLeak for us to larn the truth of just what the British Embassy, thinks, says and does.

I can not understand why all foreign nationals in Pattaya, certainly the more civilised Europeans, do not take to the streets in protest and besiege the Soi 9 Police Station. Some form of strong protest showing that we will not accept this is needed.

There are some aspects of Thailand,thta show it to be little other than a dirty third world country, that deserve to be damned.

This is merely another one.

We the decent, educated and compassionate people are subject to treatment such as this by these cruel, viscious and stupid ignorant beings.

How can anyone tolerate, condone or ignore this?

I hope the British Press run with it.

This is still supposed to be about a guy down on his luck found in a jail cell in poor condition.

We already have a report he was admitted that way. The same report says he was provided basic necessities etc.

The guys condition was reportedly bad but it has now come to light that there were errors in the reporting itself.

Sensationalism sells.

But you have to be kidding, right? Do you believe what you wrote? Get off your bar stool.

And like a lot of others you condemn Thailand without knowing all the facts. You are here, (if you are here) on

sufferance not by right! If you are here (repeating myself) you are no more than a tourist no matter what visa you hold.

Just like the rest of us. We all have a choice where we live. If you want to see dirty go down some of

the backstreets of most major cities in supposed first world countries.

[wolf5370]

Can you imagine the uproar from Thai people if this happened to a Thai national in the U.K. ?

That is possible, but such an event would of course not occur in the UK (thank god) but since the chap is known to have slept beneath parked cars, then he probably regards his current situation (under arrest) somewhat up market.

Of course such event willl not occur in the UK. They don't allow poor people in into their country. Asian tourists especially.

No, that's right - no Indian, Pakistanis, Bangladeshi, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Thais in the UK! Have you eber been to London - or still believe its like a Dicken's novel.

[raylo]

What appalls me about it are the conditions he is found in.

Clearly neglected, denied dignity, medical treatment or assessmnet he is ignored by all at the Police Staion. That is, the highest ranking Police Officer runs the station in such a way that this kind of inhumane treatment is accepted.

It is a disgrace. It is unacceptable. Is is unpardonable.

However, when you are in the hands of the uneducated, ignorant and dangerous police that is what can happen. Furthermore, when there is no rule of law; when there are no checks or balances in place; when no one cares; when such corruption is rife; then, this is the result.

The British Embassy should make a fuss. It will privately but it would take something of the order of a WickiLeak for us to larn the truth of just what the British Embassy, thinks, says and does.

I can not understand why all foreign nationals in Pattaya, certainly the more civilised Europeans, do not take to the streets in protest and besiege the Soi 9 Police Station. Some form of strong protest showing that we will not accept this is needed.

There are some aspects of Thailand,thta show it to be little other than a dirty third world country, that deserve to be damned.

This is merely another one.

We the decent, educated and compassionate people are subject to treatment such as this by these cruel, viscious and stupid ignorant beings.

How can anyone tolerate, condone or ignore this?

I hope the British Press run with it.

Well said

Your posts put the usual thai apologists to shame.

No they dont. This poster and his supporters shame us all.

[Buchholz]

Ok, now that there has been a clarification of some facts, the 4 visits, the bringing of food and water, can people stop blaming the embassy/consul for a situation it cannot control? The detention and manner of detention is entirely under the control of the Thais. The consul/embassy cannot wave a magic wand and have him released.

Yes, for that you need to be a civilian volunteer with a humanitarian foundation and a few hours to spend.

Must be her magic wand is much more powerful.

Point two, these posted "facts" are certainly without corroboration, and, besides, seem woefully inadequate in the first place. Someone in the deplorable state of health that was obviously in couldn't even warrant an every other day visit? The "fact" post actually just generated more questions as to whether the actions taken by the embassy/consul were appropriate and timely, but will those questions be answered? Without them, we can't know if the situation was something "it cannot control".

We may not learn what happened as instead, we get stonewalled.

.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Buchholz

[raylo]

An Australian would have fared the same in the same circumstances - all things being equal - all so called first worlders would have.

I'm referring specifically to the Australian Embassy and how they would have reacted to this situation. I'd like to believe they would have done better than the UK Embassy.

Sorry Tropo but I have had a bit to do with the Australian Embassies in 4-5 countries and found a similar attitude when it comes to assisting their countryfolk.

Mybe the answer is to find the 6th country or 7th?

[Deeral]

I've not read all the threads as they have built up a lot over the dayBUT

Can anyone answer this

Howard Miller

What has he done or is going to do?

Whatever his obligation as an honorary consulate he is also a well know proponent of expat living here and is frequently seen dressed in black on walking Street as a volunteer policeman.Surly he must have been aware of this person for some time yet it appears he has done nothing

He also reads and posts on this site

Has he ansered yet?

He don't need to answer. This hopeless Briton will die anywhere. Probably his own country don't even want him back if he has no money.

Are you speaking on behalf of Howard Miller?

[andrewdrummond]

Unfortunately I am not able to get too involved in this thread but I would like to say that the initial story has errors, one of which is the length of time he was at Pattaya Police Station for.

The original piece states "He is reported to have been there for three months...."

He was incarcarated for just under two weeks during which time I visited 4 times, providing food, water and clothes and he was in the condition shown in the photo's when he arrived there.

I like Drummond's current blog entry, "A conspiracy of silence - a comment" which I am sure he issued out of sheer frustration that the story did not earn him any money. Is he trying to pressure me, the Embassy or the Foreign Office into speaking out on the case and revealing what actually happened?

There are more errors in the first two blog entries on this case but they are not worth highlighting.

I will no be able to post any more here.

Howard

How long after he was jailed was your first visit? If you are saying the photos are from when he was first incarcerated (please note spelling of that police word), then did part of your visit involve getting medical attention for his obvious injuries? When you visited him, did he display the sort of very overt psychotic behavior that was readily apparent to the woman who did rescue him? If so, did you become involved in getting psychiatric attention for his obvious mental injuries?

You chastise the reporter's writing of a conspiracy of silence and then two lines later say that you can't say any more, which sort of sounds like a conspiracy of silence.

What you consider as "is he pressuring me" into speaking out is actually, a very reasonable expectation that the person involved with the situation to provide some answers as to what transpired in this tragic incident. It's justifiably rational to want to get to the bottom of it and you should expect it to be a part of your normal duties to explain your actions to the public.

Ideally, you would have, on your volition, initiated the dialogue yourself... so that the article is never needed to be written in the first place.

.

The photos were taken on Monday this week. If Howard provided him with clothes then he either lost or destroyed them or gave them away which is of course quite possible

[retell]

excuse me if i got it wrong

but is'nt any "britt" goverment property?

they should beeen taking care the first !

of there offbroad people

i know iff one commits suicide in the uk what shal be will be

that iff you fail you go to jail

greetz

Edited December 9, 2010 by retell

[apollo13]

How in God's name did Miller get the job of Hon' Consul... I take it that the guys from the FCO have met Miller in person?

[Deeral]

"The UK taxpayers have made clear their views on the provision of services in foreign countries: They want the services cut back. " - this is of course utter nonsense.Furthermore if it is intended seriously as some kind of justification or even mitigation then the poster is sadly wide of the mark.

[Buchholz]

Unfortunately I am not able to get too involved in this thread but I would like to say that the initial story has errors, one of which is the length of time he was at Pattaya Police Station for.

The original piece states "He is reported to have been there for three months...."

He was incarcarated for just under two weeks during which time I visited 4 times, providing food, water and clothes and he was in the condition shown in the photo's when he arrived there.

I like Drummond's current blog entry, "A conspiracy of silence - a comment" which I am sure he issued out of sheer frustration that the story did not earn him any money. Is he trying to pressure me, the Embassy or the Foreign Office into speaking out on the case and revealing what actually happened?

There are more errors in the first two blog entries on this case but they are not worth highlighting.

I will no be able to post any more here.

Howard

How long after he was jailed was your first visit? If you are saying the photos are from when he was first incarcerated (please note spelling of that police word), then did part of your visit involve getting medical attention for his obvious injuries? When you visited him, did he display the sort of very overt psychotic behavior that was readily apparent to the woman who did rescue him? If so, did you become involved in getting psychiatric attention for his obvious mental injuries?

You chastise the reporter's writing of a conspiracy of silence and then two lines later say that you can't say any more, which sort of sounds like a conspiracy of silence.

What you consider as "is he pressuring me" into speaking out is actually, a very reasonable expectation that the person involved with the situation to provide some answers as to what transpired in this tragic incident. It's justifiably rational to want to get to the bottom of it and you should expect it to be a part of your normal duties to explain your actions to the public.

Ideally, you would have, on your volition, initiated the dialogue yourself... so that the article is never needed to be written in the first place.

The photos were taken on Monday this week. If Howard provided him with clothes then he either lost or destroyed them or gave them away which is of course quite possible

Did Howard inquire as to what happened to the clothes he had provided the jailed man? Has Howard visited him since Monday to see him naked or has this occurred previously in the 2 weeks he has been in jail? It would be helpful to learn of when and how long these visits were.

Thank you for clarifying the photos are not from when he arrived, but are only a few days old.

.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Buchholz

[retell]

He was incarcarated for just under two weeks during which time I visited 4 times, providing food, water and clothes and he was in the condition shown in the photo's when he arrived there.

/../

Howard

Don't expect any of the usual suspects to apologize for their posts against your name. Some of them are just as sad as those that sneak around after the police volunteers on walking-street with film-cameras...as we saw in this thread.

excuse me if i got it wrong

but is'nt any "britt" goverment property?

they should beeen taking care the first !

of there offbroad people

i know iff one commits suicide in the uk what shal be will be

that iff you fail you go to jail

[Deeral]

Unfortunately I am not able to get too involved in this thread but I would like to say that the initial story has errors, one of which is the length of time he was at Pattaya Police Station for.

The original piece states "He is reported to have been there for three months...."

He was incarcarated for just under two weeks during which time I visited 4 times, providing food, water and clothes and he was in the condition shown in the photo's when he arrived there.

I like Drummond's current blog entry, "A conspiracy of silence - a comment" which I am sure he issued out of sheer frustration that the story did not earn him any money. Is he trying to pressure me, the Embassy or the Foreign Office into speaking out on the case and revealing what actually happened?

There are more errors in the first two blog entries on this case but they are not worth highlighting.

I will no be able to post any more here.

Howard

"I will no be able to post any more here."

why not?

You have some clearing up to do......As you say there are probably a lot of inaccuracies surrounding this story.May I suggest that you quickly set out your side of the story before it gets out of hand.

E. g. - how can you possibly consider that this person was receiving appropriate treatment?

People are seriously concerned about your effectiveness in this situation - whether it was part of your job description or not, you were in a position on both knowledge of the situation and you have direct personal contact with high-ranking officersHad the man been charged with anythingWhy was he being held in a prison cell when he seems to have bee quite clearly ill?Did you make any efforts to have him looked at by a Doctor or removed to a more salubrious environment?

It seems that he was held in a situation that probably breaches international laws too.

If Mr HW, you are unable to reply here, could you tell the TV readership where you will be making a reply

[gamini]

This topic should be "We deserve better treatment than others in spite of how we behave because we are British"

The fact is there are tens of thousands of decent good Burmese illegal immigrants imprisoned under terrible conditions in Thai Jails

with no medical help. I am much more concerned about helping them than I am about a fellow Briton just because he is British.

Well said on all counts

Well Said? To me its pure garbage - perhaps it should read "Mentally ill person Found Naked, Tied To The Bars Of A Cell In Pattaya Police Station" - would it be acceptable for people to comment then? Why does it have to be about nationality? Why do some idiots here ignore the fact that this is a human being treated inhumainly - it may well be that he is a Brit - it may well be that it is only reported because he is a Brit, but is that a bad thing? Just because the Thai press ignores it, should the English language papers or international press? The fact that Expat paper's report on mistreatment of Expats is strange to you? Its a problem? Is it not really more of an issue that: 1> A human is treated this way; 2> When other nationals (Burmese etc as the post quoted) are treated this way that their own governments/press/etc do not pick up o it; 3> Thais apparantly think this is acceptable due to his apparant mental health issues. ??? By what logic does it follow that just because no one shouts about Burmese mis treatment (ignoring the fact that many groups actually do), that no opne shouls comment on other nationalities - that they should specifical;ly ignore their own countrymen simply becuase of that fact? Sheesh some people!

"your own countrymen" says it all. Typical response from many Brits. I care about people

regardless of thier nationality.

[wolf5370]

What appalls me about it are the conditions he is found in.

Clearly neglected, denied dignity, medical treatment or assessmnet he is ignored by all at the Police Staion. That is, the highest ranking Police Officer runs the station in such a way that this kind of inhumane treatment is accepted.

It is a disgrace. It is unacceptable. Is is unpardonable.

However, when you are in the hands of the uneducated, ignorant and dangerous police that is what can happen. Furthermore, when there is no rule of law; when there are no checks or balances in place; when no one cares; when such corruption is rife; then, this is the result.

The British Embassy should make a fuss. It will privately but it would take something of the order of a WickiLeak for us to larn the truth of just what the British Embassy, thinks, says and does.

I can not understand why all foreign nationals in Pattaya, certainly the more civilised Europeans, do not take to the streets in protest and besiege the Soi 9 Police Station. Some form of strong protest showing that we will not accept this is needed.

There are some aspects of Thailand,thta show it to be little other than a dirty third world country, that deserve to be damned.

This is merely another one.

We the decent, educated and compassionate people are subject to treatment such as this by these cruel, viscious and stupid ignorant beings.

How can anyone tolerate, condone or ignore this?

I hope the British Press run with it.

This is still supposed to be about a guy down on his luck found in a jail cell in poor condition.

We already have a report he was admitted that way. The same report says he was provided basic necessities etc.

The guys condition was reportedly bad but it has now come to light that there were errors in the reporting itself.

Sensationalism sells.

But you have to be kidding, right? Do you believe what you wrote? Get off your bar stool.

And like a lot of others you condemn Thailand without knowing all the facts. You are here, (if you are here) on

sufferance not by right! If you are here (repeating myself) you are no more than a tourist no matter what visa you hold.

Just like the rest of us. We all have a choice where we live. If you want to see dirty go down some of

the backstreets of most major cities in supposed first world countries.

Sorry Raylo can't be "Careful" only "Honest". While I can not completely agree with what HP says here, you are still missing the point. It is irrelevent where people live - I didn't live in China when they run students over with tanks in Red Square, but that doesn't stop me commenting on how barbaric it was. If what is reported here is true, and this is what all the comments are in relation to (so if untrue, the comments are not applicable anyway), he has been in prison for 3 months and counting - one would expect facial bruising to heal at least - perhaps he did that to himself in frustration at being chained to a metal cage wall. Of course, this in itself is deplorable. The fact that there are other bad countries, or that Thailand also does it to its own people (or neighbours who have less clout behind their shout), is simply not relevent - two hundred wrongs don't make a right, everyone should be shouted from the rooftops and decried around the world, and thus change comes. Thailand is the chair of the Human Right's counsel in the UN, so it SHOULD be something close to the Government's heart and introducing basic human rights to prisoners should be high on someone's agenda - this SHOULD be highly embarrassing to them (second HR hit in just a couple of months - see http://www.scandasia.com/viewNews.php?coun_code=plus&news_id=7405 with regard to hotels refusing black and south Asians from entry). I also must say again, mental heal;th is medical and not a life choice.

I don't disagree with your sentiment that it also happens in the (so-called wealthy) west, which is deplorable also, or even that it is often life choices that put people in such positions - but I just do not feel this is a reason to be quiet now either. I met an old guy once in London living on the sreets - I gave him my cigarettes as I had just decided to give up (this was many years ago now), and sat chatting with him outside a club. He was a self-confessed drunk who lived in a box at night and begged or disembowled trashcans by day. Was it his fault he was there - yes. Dig deeper, he had been an architect many years before (told me of some building or other he designed - can't remember now), had his own firm and a nice house in Surrey or some such place. Then a car accident took his family and he declined, his family tried to help him (he said they were all dead themselves now) but he just drunk himself until he had lost everything, then he took a train to London and joined the street - just like that. Yep, his fault, but I would say severe (possibly clinical) depression drove him to it. He was sad, but unlike some of the tramps I've chatted to before, sane as far as I could tell. I live in Thailand now, and have done a good while now, spoken to a local drunk thgat wanders up to me for a chat from time to time, but he is completely incoherent. Thai tramps always seem to be completely paraletic and either out cold or close to it.

[retell]

Unfortunately I am not able to get too involved in this thread but I would like to say that the initial story has errors, one of which is the length of time he was at Pattaya Police Station for.

The original piece states "He is reported to have been there for three months...."

He was incarcarated for just under two weeks during which time I visited 4 times, providing food, water and clothes and he was in the condition shown in the photo's when he arrived there.

I like Drummond's current blog entry, "A conspiracy of silence - a comment" which I am sure he issued out of sheer frustration that the story did not earn him any money. Is he trying to pressure me, the Embassy or the Foreign Office into speaking out on the case and revealing what actually happened?

There are more errors in the first two blog entries on this case but they are not worth highlighting.

I will no be able to post any more here.

Howard

"I will no be able to post any more here."

why not?

You have some clearing up to do......As you say there are probably a lot of inaccuracies surrounding this story.May I suggest that you quickly set out your side of the story before it gets out of hand.

E. g. - how can you possibly consider that this person was receiving appropriate treatment?

People are seriously concerned about your effectiveness in this situation - whether it was part of your job description or not, you were in a position on both knowledge of the situation and you have direct personal contact with high-ranking officersHad the man been charged with anythingWhy was he being held in a prison cell when he seems to have bee quite clearly ill?Did you make any efforts to have him looked at by a Doctor or removed to a more salubrious environment?

It seems that he was held in a situation that probably breaches international laws too.

If Mr HW, you are unable to reply here, could you tell the TV readership where you will be making a reply

cheer cheer cheer share the the same thought

excuse me if i got it wrong

but is'nt any "britt" goverment property?

they should beeen taking care the first !

of there offbroad people

i know iff one commits suicide in the uk what shal be will be

that iff you fail you go to jail

[retell]

This topic should be "We deserve better treatment than others in spite of how we behave because we are British"

The fact is there are tens of thousands of decent good Burmese illegal immigrants imprisoned under terrible conditions in Thai Jails

with no medical help. I am much more concerned about helping them than I am about a fellow Briton just because he is British.

Well said on all counts

Well Said? To me its pure garbage - perhaps it should read "Mentally ill person Found Naked, Tied To The Bars Of A Cell In Pattaya Police Station" - would it be acceptable for people to comment then? Why does it have to be about nationality? Why do some idiots here ignore the fact that this is a human being treated inhumainly - it may well be that he is a Brit - it may well be that it is only reported because he is a Brit, but is that a bad thing? Just because the Thai press ignores it, should the English language papers or international press? The fact that Expat paper's report on mistreatment of Expats is strange to you? Its a problem? Is it not really more of an issue that: 1> A human is treated this way; 2> When other nationals (Burmese etc as the post quoted) are treated this way that their own governments/press/etc do not pick up o it; 3> Thais apparantly think this is acceptable due to his apparant mental health issues. ??? By what logic does it follow that just because no one shouts about Burmese mis treatment (ignoring the fact that many groups actually do), that no opne shouls comment on other nationalities - that they should specifical;ly ignore their own countrymen simply becuase of that fact? Sheesh some people!

"your own countrymen" says it all. Typical response from many Brits. I care about people

regardless of thier nationality.

excuse me if i got it wrong

but is'nt any "britt" goverment property?

they should beeen taking care the first !

of there offbroad people

i know iff one commits suicide in the uk what shal be will be

that iff you fail you go to jail

[wolf5370]

This topic should be "We deserve better treatment than others in spite of how we behave because we are British"

The fact is there are tens of thousands of decent good Burmese illegal immigrants imprisoned under terrible conditions in Thai Jails

with no medical help. I am much more concerned about helping them than I am about a fellow Briton just because he is British.

Well said on all counts

Well Said? To me its pure garbage - perhaps it should read "Mentally ill person Found Naked, Tied To The Bars Of A Cell In Pattaya Police Station" - would it be acceptable for people to comment then? Why does it have to be about nationality? Why do some idiots here ignore the fact that this is a human being treated inhumanity - it may well be that he is a Brit - it may well be that it is only reported because he is a Brit, but is that a bad thing? Just because the Thai press ignores it, should the English language papers or international press? The fact that Expat paper's report on mistreatment of Expats is strange to you? Its a problem? Is it not really more of an issue that: 1> A human is treated this way; 2> When other nationals (Burmese etc as the post quoted) are treated this way that their own governments/press/etc do not pick up on it; 3> Thais apparently think this is acceptable due to his apparent mental health issues. ??? By what logic does it follow that just because no one shouts about Burmese mis treatment (ignoring the fact that many groups actually do), that no one should comment on other nationalities - that they should specifically ignore their own countrymen simply because of that fact? Sheesh some people!

"your own countrymen" says it all. Typical response from many Brits. I care about people

regardless of thier nationality.

Wow! Can you read? Where did I say "your own countrymen" (those little 66 99 marks are quotes - however, not a quote from me). Your post stated that you do not care about all people regardless of their nationality, it states categorically that you are "more concerned about helping them than I am about a fellow Briton just because he is British" [sic] - thus you care about Burmese regardless of their condition much more than you do this one, who is obviously in need of proper medical care, because he is a Brit. It is YOU who keeps bring up his nationality as if it is more important than the way he has been treated or the care that he is (not) provided. Indeed, it was the point of my reply (the one you believe is a typical response from many Brits - according to your puerile response - I am sure they are grateful for your kind words that they do actually care for this man's plight regardless of his nationality!) that his nationality is of no relevance to the emotive response and anger felt as to his condition and treatment - its ONLY relevance is in regard to the dismal help from his Embassy.

Anyway, it would have been nice to have received a real reply - maybe with some of my queries answered - in particular the one relating to logic.

[Edit: Typo]

Edited December 9, 2010 by wolf5370

[raylo]

What appalls me about it are the conditions he is found in.

Clearly neglected, denied dignity, medical treatment or assessmnet he is ignored by all at the Police Staion. That is, the highest ranking Police Officer runs the station in such a way that this kind of inhumane treatment is accepted.

It is a disgrace. It is unacceptable. Is is unpardonable.

However, when you are in the hands of the uneducated, ignorant and dangerous police that is what can happen. Furthermore, when there is no rule of law; when there are no checks or balances in place; when no one cares; when such corruption is rife; then, this is the result.

The British Embassy should make a fuss. It will privately but it would take something of the order of a WickiLeak for us to larn the truth of just what the British Embassy, thinks, says and does.

I can not understand why all foreign nationals in Pattaya, certainly the more civilised Europeans, do not take to the streets in protest and besiege the Soi 9 Police Station. Some form of strong protest showing that we will not accept this is needed.

There are some aspects of Thailand,thta show it to be little other than a dirty third world country, that deserve to be damned.

This is merely another one.

We the decent, educated and compassionate people are subject to treatment such as this by these cruel, viscious and stupid ignorant beings.

How can anyone tolerate, condone or ignore this?

I hope the British Press run with it.

This is still supposed to be about a guy down on his luck found in a jail cell in poor condition.

We already have a report he was admitted that way. The same report says he was provided basic necessities etc.

The guys condition was reportedly bad but it has now come to light that there were errors in the reporting itself.

Sensationalism sells.

But you have to be kidding, right? Do you believe what you wrote? Get off your bar stool.

And like a lot of others you condemn Thailand without knowing all the facts. You are here, (if you are here) on

sufferance not by right! If you are here (repeating myself) you are no more than a tourist no matter what visa you hold.

Just like the rest of us. We all have a choice where we live. If you want to see dirty go down some of

the backstreets of most major cities in supposed first world countries.

Sorry Raylo can't be "Careful" only "Honest". While I can not completely agree with what HP says here, you are still missing the point. It is irrelevent where people live - I didn't live in China when they run students over with tanks in Red Square, but that doesn't stop me commenting on how barbaric it was. If what is reported here is true, and this is what all the comments are in relation to (so if untrue, the comments are not applicable anyway), he has been in prison for 3 months and counting - one would expect facial bruising to heal at least - perhaps he did that to himself in frustration at being chained to a metal cage wall. Of course, this in itself is deplorable. The fact that there are other bad countries, or that Thailand also does it to its own people (or neighbours who have less clout behind their shout), is simply not relevent - two hundred wrongs don't make a right, everyone should be shouted from the rooftops and decried around the world, and thus change comes. Thailand is the chair of the Human Right's counsel in the UN, so it SHOULD be something close to the Government's heart and introducing basic human rights to prisoners should be high on someone's agenda - this SHOULD be highly embarrassing to them (second HR hit in just a couple of months - see http://www.scandasia.com/viewNews.php?coun_code=plus&news_id=7405 with regard to hotels refusing black and south Asians from entry). I also must say again, mental heal;th is medical and not a life choice.

I don't disagree with your sentiment that it also happens in the (so-called wealthy) west, which is deplorable also, or even that it is often life choices that put people in such positions - but I just do not feel this is a reason to be quiet now either. I met an old guy once in London living on the sreets - I gave him my cigarettes as I had just decided to give up (this was many years ago now), and sat chatting with him outside a club. He was a self-confessed drunk who lived in a box at night and begged or disembowled trashcans by day. Was it his fault he was there - yes. Dig deeper, he had been an architect many years before (told me of some building or other he designed - can't remember now), had his own firm and a nice house in Surrey or some such place. Then a car accident took his family and he declined, his family tried to help him (he said they were all dead themselves now) but he just drunk himself until he had lost everything, then he took a train to London and joined the street - just like that. Yep, his fault, but I would say severe (possibly clinical) depression drove him to it. He was sad, but unlike some of the tramps I've chatted to before, sane as far as I could tell. I live in Thailand now, and have done a good while now, spoken to a local drunk thgat wanders up to me for a chat from time to time, but he is completely incoherent. Thai tramps always seem to be completely paraletic and either out cold or close to it.

Not missing the point. Just different viewpoint and my sense of understanding and empathy of the country I choose to live in.

you wrote well and provided a parallel view of this situation. Personally I have seen similar in many countries, say it again, western countries. Usually see less in Asian & Arabic when you factor in the standard of living etc.

You should go to Beijing, T square is a tourist mecca and goldmine for the locals.

However if we are being honest where does the 3 months come from? Newspaper sensationalism? A few posters have already confirmed the initial report timing was incorrect.

Facial bruising maybe thats why he was chained to stop him hurting himself or others. I dont know and the few who really do aint talking.

Lets get to the meat of the matter and say YES to it should not happen. But NO to posters calling the country despicable, dirty and lots more adjectives. Because they

have nothing else to say. As previously touched upon, bar stool bantering. Also to the same or similar posters complaining about every person they can think of

or the Embassy or the Consul without knowing the facts. I dont know if they have done "the right thing" in this case or whether thay have done as much as they are allowed to.

Most of the Brits posting here live in a fools paradise where they seem to think the Embassy can charge in and demand this guy's release or change the situation to their

staisfaction. Thats why I stress the point we are all in another country to that of our birth or citizenship and we have to play by their rules. If we dont like it we dont

live here. No one forces us to live here. I just like it. But then I dont run the world from a barstool.

[TommyDee]

My God Fathers, I didnt realise so many folkl really believe everything they read from a hack.? do they swallow every word in the sun, the mail and, God Forbid, the Sport as gospel?

this might be a bit long but please bear with me, I am getting old Let me first qualify my post here and also be very open so that there is no questionas to my intent. i am a friend of Howard miller. I work with him on the radio project and enjoy his company. he is a decent chap, despite the easily formed opinions of those who have never met him and above all he is honourable as a person. i am not asking to debate these matters, they are facts.

Whilst I am not employed by HM Government nor privy to his daily dealings, nor the facts of this case, i do consider myself as well informed as Drummond in his sensationalised story, which as usual is aimed at a sale to support him and his tribe and their life over here. he is after all an unemployed hack who "freelances" which I assure you is in no way dis-similar a method of employment to those lovely ladies who call to me from the beach on my way to the bank, they too embelish the truth to achive remuneration. Unless of course I really am a sexy hansum man.

HM cannot reply in detail to you. Nor can he even confide detail to me or any of his friends. the code of conduct is laid out by the Home Office, ( or what ever they call it today) and these matters are confidential. were they not then he would be allowed to confide in us all, the intimate details of any Brit who is in need of consular or embassy services which you, and i would then complain as an invasion of privacy.

He, and all his collegues report to the big boys on any information supplied to them regarding Brits in distress or need here. The course of action is then determined and sent back to them for them to action. That is a simple fact and is available to us all, along with the Home Office guidelines, rules and modus operandi, in fact you can google it. just as in any postion of responsibility, the operative, in this case Howard, would be required by his masters to act in a pre-described manner and no other. he would then also be required to report back.

Neither you, I or Lord Drummond of the tin hut know the inside story on this matter. How it was being dealt with, how long it had been in hand and how difficult it had or had not been to make arrangements to suit the thai authorities (and this of course is Thai soil, thai law and not the UK). We are not privy to the conversations held between the gentleman and Howard, nor to his wants or needs. So ALL of that section of this sensationalised story is guesswork and 3rd hand info.

So a lady comes along on her white horse and saves the day.

And whether or not the UK Offices would have handled the matter similarly or had the matter in hand, the outcome of the woman's actions is that the distressed gentleman is now, hopefully, more comfortable and getting help. I am sure she meant well and should be applauded for her endevours. She is lucky that she doesnt have to work within any perameters, I am sure that our Home Office boys wish that they to could act similarly and perhaps if they were not working on hundreds of cases a week, many of similar misfortune, they would be able to do so. The Royal Thai police, however, are, I am sure, equally adapt at running their laws and prisons according to their law, and this is their country. ( again i refer you to the procedures outlined by the home office for interaction with foreign national police on non UK soil.

In response to the "When you visited him, did he display the sort of very overt psychotic behavior that was readily apparent to the woman who did rescue him?" as far as i am aware, neither person, the lady or Hm are qualified to answer that question.

WHAT I DO KNOW: is that this chap was photgraphed in some local rag a month or so back, living on the beach. he was a a known homeless person in Pattaya. ( we have many here). We have failedd businessmen, failed husbands, broke drunks, broke druggies, visa overstayers, hippies, weirdos and nut-cases. they are all a part of the city. You only need to wander around at 3 in the morning to see them sleeping, or 9 in the morning having their first pick me up of the day. trust me, we have a lot of rejects in our midst.

In a thai nick at mid-day, if I were the least bit unshy, I too would strip off. You may not be aware of the fact that it gets quite hot in there, many to a small cell, no a/c or fan.

As an aside to the HM story, which is obviously designed to feed the piranhas, I have a few questions.

Couldnt Drummond have made a credible story without slagging of Howard, here and on his three running posts on his fred? Is there a potential to increase the story value by adding unproven, sourceless attacks? of course there is... in the hack eat hack world of media prostitution.. its all about the money.. and just like the ladies I wave to on beach road.... the more BS they fire at us, the more chance they have of us believing it

Edited December 9, 2010 by SecretTom

[raylo]

My God Fathers, I didnt realise so many folkl really believe everything they read from a hack.? do they swallow every word in the sun, the mail and, God Forbid, the Sport as gospel?

this might be a bit long but please bear with me, I am getting old Let me first qualify my post here and also be very open so that there is no questionas to my intent. i am a friend of Howard miller. I work with him on the radio project and enjoy his company. he is a decent chap, despite the easily formed opinions of those who have never met him and above all he is honourable as a person. i am not asking to debate these matters, they are facts.

Whilst I am not employed by HM Government nor privy to his daily dealings, nor the facts of this case, i do consider myself as well informed as Drummond in his sensationalised story, which as usual is aimed at a sale to support him and his tribe and their life over here. he is after all an unemployed hack who "freelances" which I assure you is in no way dis-similar a method of employment to those lovely ladies who call to me from the beach on my way to the bank, they too embelish the truth to achive remuneration. Unless of course I really am a sexy hansum man.

HM cannot reply in detail to you. Nor can he even confide detail to me or any of his friends. the code of conduct is laid out by the Home Office, ( or what ever they call it today) and these matters are confidential. were they not then he would be allowed to confide in us all, the intimate details of any Brit who is in need of consular or embassy services which you, and i would then complain as an invasion of privacy.

He, and all his collegues report to the big boys on any information supplied to them regarding Brits in distress or need here. The course of action is then determined and sent back to them for them to action. That is a simple fact and is available to us all, along with the Home Office guidelines, rules and modus operandi, in fact you can google it. just as in any postion of responsibility, the operative, in this case Howard, would be required by his masters to act in a pre-described manner and no other. he would then also be required to report back.

Neither you, I or Lord Drummond of the tin hut know the inside story on this matter. How it was being dealt with, how long it had been in hand and how difficult it had or had not been to make arrangements to suit the thai authorities (and this of course is Thai soil, thai law and not the UK). We are not privy to the conversations held between the gentleman and Howard, nor to his wants or needs. So ALL of that section of this sensationalised story is guesswork and 3rd hand info.

So a lady comes along on her white horse and saves the day.

And whether or not the UK Offices would have handled the matter similarly or had the matter in hand, the outcome of the woman's actions is that the distressed gentleman is now, hopefully, more comfortable and getting help. I am sure she meant well and should be applauded for her endevours. She is lucky that she doesnt have to work within any perameters, I am sure that our Home Office boys wish that they to could act similarly and perhaps if they were not working on hundreds of cases a week, many of similar misfortune, they would be able to do so. The Royal Thai police, however, are, I am sure, equally adapt at running their laws and prisons according to their law, and this is their country. ( again i refer you to the procedures outlined by the home office for interaction with foreign national police on non UK soil.

In response to the "When you visited him, did he display the sort of very overt psychotic behavior that was readily apparent to the woman who did rescue him?" as far as i am aware, neither person, the lady or Hm are qualified to answer that question.

WHAT I DO KNOW: is that this chap was photgraphed in some local rag a month or so back, living on the beach. he was a a known homeless person in Pattaya. ( we have many here). We have failedd businessmen, failed husbands, broke drunks, broke druggies, visa overstayers, hippies, weirdos and nut-cases. they are all a part of the city. You only need to wander around at 3 in the morning to see them sleeping, or 9 in the morning having their first pick me up of the day. trust me, we have a lot of rejects in our midst.

In a thai nick at mid-day, if I were the least bit unshy, I too would strip off. You may not be aware of the fact that it gets quite hot in there, many to a small cell, no a/c or fan.

As an aside to the HM story, which is obviously designed to feed the piranhas, I have a few questions.

Isnt charity only charity when its done without the seeking of publicity and recognition? after that doesnt it become more of a good deed? I dont really understand the relationship between saving this chap from his distress and calling a local hack with the story. I really dont. but maybe thats just me. I think she was wonderful and as i have said I applaud her actions.

Couldnt Drummond have made a credible story without slagging of Howard, here and on his three running posts on his fred? Is there a potential to increase the story value by adding unproven, sourceless attacks? of course there is... in the hack eat hack world of media prostitution.. its all about the money.. and just like the ladies I wave to on beach road.... the more BS they fire at us, the more chance they have of us believing it

Good on ya Tom

TEll it like it is.

[Buchholz]

My God Fathers, I didnt realise so many folkl really believe everything they read from a hack.?

We probably won't believe much from someone who joined 30 minutes ago.

[hm1973]

I think Tom is really me posting under another name.

[TommyDee]

My God Fathers, I didnt realise so many folkl really believe everything they read from a hack.?

We probably won't believe much from someone who joined 30 minutes ago.

nice try

I have been a member here for over 4 years, To be honest i dont post much but read. I have changed my email account so could not "recall" my passowrd or username.

By using "secrettom" as my monicle i am being very open as to whom i am. i post on many pattaya boards and wanted to be on the level with my posting here.

nevertheless i am surprised that you only trust long term detainees hee, i would have thought input from the outside world would have been equally welcome, or did I simply not agree with your opinion.

I trust this satisfies this new found lust for credibility in an otherwise incredible thread

tom

[TommyDee]

I think Tom is really me posting under another name.

not a bloody chance. I used big words, you ddont know any more than 4 letters long baldy

[Buchholz]

i am a friend of Howard miller.

If you're a friend, you actually do him a disservice, by your rambling, jumbled first post. You end up making him look worse than it already seemed.

I was tempted to dissect you disjointed diatribe bit by bit in reply, but reconsidered and decided that's it's only worthwhile doing if you've been a member for more than an hour.

[Buchholz]

My God Fathers, I didnt realise so many folkl really believe everything they read from a hack.?

We probably won't believe much from someone who joined 30 minutes ago.

nice try

I have been a member here for over 4 years

your record says otherwise

Edited December 9, 2010 by Buchholz

[Tommo]

My worst nightmare, a start reminder of where any of us could end up after a temporary fluke of bad karma.

I hope he makes it home!

Is that start or stark?

Sorry, but what is going on here? Can no British people actually remember what it's like back home? Don't we have people living ruff on the streets (and in zero temperatures)?

Why should it be a "start reminder"? You think this guy came on a quick holiday and degenerated into a homeless mental patient in a couple of days? Please.....

Don't get me wrong, and well done for all who have helped, but aren't there just a few too many people who have come here with minimal funds/knowledge/scruples and overstayed their legal welcome by far too long. Then people complain about the unfair visa requirements!

By the way, since this site has hooked up with 'Pattaya Mail' and God's cop, there has certainly been a dumbing down of content - in my view from the Mirror to a Nick Griffen pamphlet.