Farang Boss Managing Thais

[h90]

HI all.

For almost a year now I have been in a high management position managing about 100 Thai staff. In a hotel environment.

What I find excrutiating is their hard headedness. They (99%) do not want to change. When changes are implement (albeit policy) they will do so, but slowly revert to their old self. In most cases they want to wear you down to where you give up and back to square one.

I have lived in Thailand 4 years. Do not speak Thai but I know about 300 words and always am able to discuss and give orders without any problems (elect dic, drawings, staff translations). Never a problem to get an idea through. But implementing it, forget it. Simply easier to talk to a brick wall.

Particularly Southerners, area where I am based. Change Policy? Try to make their jobs easier? Forget it!  They want to do it the hard way. Methodical thinking, non existent. Cognitive thought process? Not there either. It is like trying to understand a Dali painting while drunk on Chang beer.

Anyone else in my shoes?

To answer future questions. I am engaged to a lovely Thai girl going on now for 3.5 years. We are expecting (totally planned) a baby in a few months. I enjoy living here, with its warts and all. 43 years old, etc. 3 dogs and crazy in-laws. (Separate house, of course).

Thanks,

Sniper

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here my wife is managing, she is half chinese (but don't like to hear that). She manage terrible unpolite, calling them buffalo, idiots, animals and many things more which I am unable to translate. than they try to improve, which lasts arround 2 days, than fall back. Than need to hear the complains again for 2 hours.

But really slowly they improve and get better. The snails are racing ahead in the speed of improvement, but they improve.

In Europe that methode would not work at all, but here it seems to. Sometimes the staff cry like little children (men 30 years old) and later promise that they only love the company and nothing else (this happens after we find them cheating companys money or something like that).

Very strange everything, I myself get slowly but sure crazy on seeing that every day. But our performance is double as good as the other companies, on the price that my wife is sitting and controlling everything 12-14 hours a day 6 days a week and I make the real managment work in the behind. And that for 6 people staff.

[El Taco Loco]

Sorry, calling them names is not my management style and I do not allow that to happen from the "lieutenants". However, I do know other Thai managers in other companies are very strict and very condascending towards their staff.

With regards to cheating the company..we had some losses for awhile then we did more searches, 24 hour security and strict inventory controls and of course some of the mafia left, others complained but overall it was important that they know who the boss is. But once they steal, they are out.

Sniper

HI all.

For almost a year now I have been in a high management position managing about 100 Thai staff. In a hotel environment.

What I find excrutiating is their hard headedness. They (99%) do not want to change. When changes are implement (albeit policy) they will do so, but slowly revert to their old self. In most cases they want to wear you down to where you give up and back to square one.

I have lived in Thailand 4 years. Do not speak Thai but I know about 300 words and always am able to discuss and give orders without any problems (elect dic, drawings, staff translations). Never a problem to get an idea through. But implementing it, forget it. Simply easier to talk to a brick wall.

Particularly Southerners, area where I am based. Change Policy? Try to make their jobs easier? Forget it!  They want to do it the hard way. Methodical thinking, non existent. Cognitive thought process? Not there either. It is like trying to understand a Dali painting while drunk on Chang beer.

Anyone else in my shoes?

To answer future questions. I am engaged to a lovely Thai girl going on now for 3.5 years. We are expecting (totally planned) a baby in a few months. I enjoy living here, with its warts and all. 43 years old, etc. 3 dogs and crazy in-laws. (Separate house, of course).

Thanks,

Sniper

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here my wife is managing, she is half chinese (but don't like to hear that). She manage terrible unpolite, calling them buffalo, idiots, animals and many things more which I am unable to translate. than they try to improve, which lasts arround 2 days, than fall back. Than need to hear the complains again for 2 hours.

But really slowly they improve and get better. The snails are racing ahead in the speed of improvement, but they improve.

In Europe that methode would not work at all, but here it seems to. Sometimes the staff cry like little children (men 30 years old) and later promise that they only love the company and nothing else (this happens after we find them cheating companys money or something like that).

Very strange everything, I myself get slowly but sure crazy on seeing that every day. But our performance is double as good as the other companies, on the price that my wife is sitting and controlling everything 12-14 hours a day 6 days a week and I make the real managment work in the behind. And that for 6 people staff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Darknight]

Don't overdo your management style as you might find yourself lying in a ditch somewhere whit a bullet in your back. especially when you fire personell.

I was warned for this by a very senior (vice president) exec from the largest holding in thailand, CP.

you can shift them around, but be carefull when you fire them.

[h90]

I had very bad experience, giving rewards to single members of the team in a other company. The result was that the others try to kill them (for the sale guys if they know the customer they informed competitors about it, very bad thing).

Here is the policy for the motorbike guys, if the performance is bad, all get fired together, if the performance is good everyone get a bonus up to how they did, but in fact they get all the same 1500 Baht. This system reduced days of beeing ill (caused by lao kao) to zero.

the case of cheating we had: one sales guy bought things for the company at 25 % discount, but before we got 45 %, so he took 20 % commission. One sales guy did instead of sale to the customer give the informations to a dealer who bought from us.

Both left our company by themself 2 weeks later.

But belive me, it works the best: very clear orders, just 1 order per time, if fail punishment, if make well some bonus.

For example if one of our motorbike guys have time they should look arround for possible new customer, if they can find one and the sales guy can sale something, they get up to the order 300-2000 Baht, on the same day in cash on their hand, what normaly results in a beer chang party in the evening in the office and an allowance to start the next day 2 hours later if possible.

But the system again:

Clear order

immediatly consequences positiv or negativ, if possible per group, so there is no fighting inside the group.

A bonus 20 days later does not help them, they need to see the money now.

At the moment working very well, everyone every day here 5 min before the beginn, every day every work completed, no Alc during working hours........

Sorry, calling them names is not my management style and I do not allow that to happen from the "lieutenants".  However, I do know other Thai managers in other companies are very strict and very condascending towards their staff.

With regards to cheating the company..we had some losses for awhile then we did more searches, 24 hour security and strict inventory controls and of course some of the mafia left, others complained but overall it was important that they know who the boss is. But once they steal, they are out.

Sniper

HI all.

For almost a year now I have been in a high management position managing about 100 Thai staff. In a hotel environment.

What I find excrutiating is their hard headedness. They (99%) do not want to change. When changes are implement (albeit policy) they will do so, but slowly revert to their old self. In most cases they want to wear you down to where you give up and back to square one.

I have lived in Thailand 4 years. Do not speak Thai but I know about 300 words and always am able to discuss and give orders without any problems (elect dic, drawings, staff translations). Never a problem to get an idea through. But implementing it, forget it. Simply easier to talk to a brick wall.

Particularly Southerners, area where I am based. Change Policy? Try to make their jobs easier? Forget it!  They want to do it the hard way. Methodical thinking, non existent. Cognitive thought process? Not there either. It is like trying to understand a Dali painting while drunk on Chang beer.

Anyone else in my shoes?

To answer future questions. I am engaged to a lovely Thai girl going on now for 3.5 years. We are expecting (totally planned) a baby in a few months. I enjoy living here, with its warts and all. 43 years old, etc. 3 dogs and crazy in-laws. (Separate house, of course).

Thanks,

Sniper

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here my wife is managing, she is half chinese (but don't like to hear that). She manage terrible unpolite, calling them buffalo, idiots, animals and many things more which I am unable to translate. than they try to improve, which lasts arround 2 days, than fall back. Than need to hear the complains again for 2 hours.

But really slowly they improve and get better. The snails are racing ahead in the speed of improvement, but they improve.

In Europe that methode would not work at all, but here it seems to. Sometimes the staff cry like little children (men 30 years old) and later promise that they only love the company and nothing else (this happens after we find them cheating companys money or something like that).

Very strange everything, I myself get slowly but sure crazy on seeing that every day. But our performance is double as good as the other companies, on the price that my wife is sitting and controlling everything 12-14 hours a day 6 days a week and I make the real managment work in the behind. And that for 6 people staff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[El Taco Loco]

Don't overdo your management style as you might find yourself lying in a ditch somewhere whit a bullet in your back. especially when you fire personell.

I was warned for this by a very senior (vice president) exec from the largest holding in thailand, CP.

you can shift them around, but be carefull when you fire them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed. One of the Thai managers' house was firebombed and there have been some strange incidents. That is always in the back of my mind. Particularly when they drink, they kill for no reason.

Under Thai law we must give 3 written warnings before we can fire or we have to pay 3 months wages. So they know when it is time and for the most part they understand the consequences of their future actions.

Sniper

[SiamOne]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with your complaints. I too have seen all this in companies I have worked with.

I suppose that you have to remember that Thailand is still an undeveloped country, both in education and work practices. It is easy to forget that, living in tourist areas and Bangkok, and apply your own standards and expectations to your workers.

It is certainly the case, all over SE Asia, that the Chinese are better businessmen and hold a disproportiionate amount of the wealth, due to their work ethics.

The colonists recognised that most local workers were not really into hard work, and brought other peoples in to do their labour. Maybe Thailand would have been better off with a colonial past?

The Thai way of life seems to appeal to most of you out there though!! except for businessmen, mai pen rai Kaah

[x-pat]

Managing teams is probably not an easy task anywhere, but in Thailand it can be extremely difficult when you have to achieve results. The work ethics and education standards in Thailand can actually make it a nightmare.

I managed my own IT company with small teams (up to 15) for nine years. Closed my company in 2002 and laid off all staff. Best thing I ever did. Although this was not an entirely voluntary action, I found that many headaches suddenly vanished.

Today I work as a one-man-show. No need to hold repititive meetings, explain policies, micromanage, check quality, waste time with admin. Life is so much easier...

Cheers, X-Pat

[think_too_mut]

I managed my own IT company with small teams (up to 15) for nine years. Closed my company in 2002 and laid off all staff. Best thing I ever did. Although this was not an entirely voluntary action, I found that many headaches suddenly vanished.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe the staff had sensed the company was doomed and their dismissal was the owner's relief and had no interest in doing anything for the venture.

Edited August 24, 2005 by think_too_mut

[mowlem]

I have lived in Thailand 4 years. Do not speak Thai but I know about 300 words and always am able to discuss and give orders without any problems.

So, who is being lazy?

You have been here four years, and seemed to have totally failed to pick up the language or culture. No wonder you have problems. You expect all these changes from your staff, but expect that you personally don't have to change.

Do you know all the names of your staff? (Formal and nicknames)

What is the latest gossip. Whose seeing/split from who?

Who has a (really) sick granny?

Who is in debt up to their eyeballs?

Who do the staff all hate?

Who has ambition? Who got the job because of connections?

Who is unsackable, for the same reasons as above?

Who got the job through a backhander/bribe?

What is the latest rumour about you. There are several I assure you!

When did you last go karaoke/have a meal with them?

Sorry, but you cannot "discuss and give orders"on 300 words of Thai. You cannot manage a team on 300 words of Thai. The most important word here is "because". Explain why you are doing this/want it done this way.

Developing staff is a slow process. But you have not changed in four years, so why do you expect them to?

[kidtongue]

So.  Exactly how much motivation are YOU guys going to show at $10 a day salary?  The highest motivated people I've seen in Farangi-land are those that are "overpaid" by comparison to their own local standards.  Either they have their own business, or don't have the proper credentials but "know" someone, or they get a lot of extra perks, like top-line computers and good travel.

Then, they are motivated to keep someone else out of their job.

kenk3z

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most of the staff are paid less than that, but above minimum wage and with guaranteed service charge. My experience has shown that salary plays a small part in motivating. The problem is this: You offer them more, they become more secure in their job and are lazier than before. You give them a title and forget it.

Motivation is: 2 guaranteed meals a day, service charge, staff bus, etc. Very basic and easy to give. The issue, again, is implementing policy and doing so effectively.

Sniper

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Make the bonus contingent on performance exceeded met or missed.

And have parties

[Vit42]

Here we go again with the stereotyping and over the top generalizations about “them” as if all thais were the same. Not to mention the hypocrisy that led many foreigners to Thailand in the first place, namely to go someplace that they can relax and enjoy themselves and escape the never ending rat race of western societies.

Don’t worry mates, in due time you’ll get your dream and Thailand will be transformed to satisfy your so-called civilized way of living and thais will become as greedy for success as most falangs.

In the meantime, keep asking yourself, how I could make “them” understand that if they would only listen to me and change for the “better”, all would be right in the world. After all, the western world is full of wonderful examples of how the great things could be if all of us just work our asses off, get nice and fat, and die of heart attacks.

To answer the op's original question: you got yourself into another country with another way of doing things. Change is possible but how do you expect "them" to be willing to change (or respect someone who tells "them" to change) unless you are willing to change and learn the language?

[El Taco Loco]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with your complaints. I too have seen all this in companies I have worked with.

I suppose that you have to remember that Thailand is still an undeveloped country, both in education and work practices. It is easy to forget that, living in tourist areas and Bangkok, and apply your own standards and expectations to your workers.

It is certainly the case, all over SE Asia, that the Chinese are better businessmen and hold a disproportiionate amount of the wealth, due to their work ethics.

The colonists recognised that most local workers were not really into hard work, and brought other peoples in to do their labour. Maybe Thailand would have been better off with a colonial past?

The Thai way of life seems to appeal to most of you out there though!! except for businessmen, mai pen rai Kaah   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have met with a lot of successful Thais and they are equally lazy as the lower schooled compatriots. Particularly when it involves old money. I have also met a lot of Thais who acknowledge this issue and are just as frustrated as I am.

Would Thailand be better off if it had a colonial past? Difficult to say. Look at the contrast between Burma and Malaysia. Both British Colonies at one time.

Thailand always claims it was never conquered, but Burma kicked their rear on many ocassions, lost last, etc. But I think at the end of the day, their hard headedness won and all conquerors left. Similar situation now with Farangs leaving the comfort of home to work and teach here and scratching their heads wondering why Thailand.

Sniper

[El Taco Loco]

Managing teams is probably not an easy task anywhere, but in Thailand it can be extremely difficult when you have to achieve results. The work ethics and education standards in Thailand can actually make it a nightmare.

I managed my own IT company with small teams (up to 15) for nine years. Closed my company in 2002 and laid off all staff. Best thing I ever did. Although this was not an entirely voluntary action, I found that many headaches suddenly vanished.

Today I work as a one-man-show. No need to hold repititive meetings, explain policies, micromanage, check quality, waste time with admin. Life is so much easier...

Cheers, X-Pat

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see a lot of that happening. And it is a shame, as some of them are really hard workers. Micromanaging is the only way to do it and it does get exhausting.

Sniper

[think_too_mut]

Here we go again with the stereotyping and over the top generalizations about “them” as if all thais were the same. Not to mention the hypocrisy that led many foreigners to Thailand in the first place, namely to go someplace that they can relax and enjoy themselves and escape the never ending rat race of western societies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here we go again: using a phrase about generalizations in order to say - nothing.

Why would it be so strange that a group of similar people (Thai nationals in the same business and of similar skills) react in the same way to the same impulse (i.e. western management style)? That is exactly what is expected. If you get that right, the business will prosper.

When you get that wrong, then the cart goes downhill and you can blame Thais or anyone for your own fault.

To answer the op's original question: you got yourself into another country with another way of doing things. Change is possible but how do you expect "them" to be willing to change (or respect someone who tells "them" to change) unless you are willing to change and learn the language?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2 years ago I landed in Japan with no knowledge of anything other than my business. In a large US computer company, I've been successfully managing a team of 42 system engineers with no word of Japanese and no any (intentional) change on my part. Quite contrary, locally employed (not an expat) and told by Japanese to carry on the same way as in the West.

(Aside I have learned Japanese but never used it in the office other than guessing what is happening around me).

[El Taco Loco]

I speak Thai, but not fluently. I do not read it or write it nor do I need to.

You have obviously not managed Thais, and certainly not 110 of them, as I have. Your misconceptions of me from one post alone shows me your "management" style.

You would have failed the first day.

As with all management jobs, you have to earn their respect. Once they build a wall around themselves, the farang has to leave the job. That has not happened here and the job is actually a lot of fun and we respect each other.

The main point asked in this thread was about implementing policy and how it is so excrutiatinly difficult it is for it to be implemented. Nothing to do with lazyness, per say.

Most of your points below I am fully aware of. Do I karaoke with them? No. Once you start drinking with them, they think the relantionship is cozy and others will get jealous if one gets a promotion, etc. Management should never involved themselves outside of the resort, unless it is staff parties or birthdays, etc., which I do involve myself with.

Your knowledge of working conditions in Thailand also lacks severely. You seem to imply that all Thai work places have corruption, particularly when jobs are attained or promotions applied. That is generalization at its worst. Everyone here got the job or got promoted based on their own merit. I implemented job promotions, whereas before it was nonexistent. I also implemented crosstraining between departments.

Do I need to be fluent in Thai for that? No.

Sniper

I have lived in Thailand 4 years. Do not speak Thai but I know about 300 words and always am able to discuss and give orders without any problems.

So, who is being lazy?

You have been here four years, and seemed to have totally failed to pick up  the language or culture. No wonder you have problems. You expect all these changes from your staff, but expect that you personally don't have to change.

Do you know all the names of your staff? (Formal and nicknames)

What is the latest gossip. Whose seeing/split from who?

Who has a (really) sick granny?

Who is in debt up to their eyeballs?

Who do the staff all hate?

Who has ambition? Who got the job because of connections?

Who is unsackable, for the same reasons as above?

Who got the job through a backhander/bribe?

What is the latest rumour about you. There are several I assure you!

When did you last go karaoke/have a meal with them?

Sorry, but you cannot "discuss and give orders"on 300 words of Thai. You cannot manage a team on 300 words of Thai. The most important word here is "because". Explain why you are doing this/want it done this way.

Developing staff is a slow process. But you have not changed in four years, so why do you expect them to?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[El Taco Loco]

Here we go again with the stereotyping and over the top generalizations about “them” as if all thais were the same. Not to mention the hypocrisy that led many foreigners to Thailand in the first place, namely to go someplace that they can relax and enjoy themselves and escape the never ending rat race of western societies.

To answer the op's original question: you got yourself into another country with another way of doing things. Change is possible but how do you expect "them" to be willing to change (or respect someone who tells "them" to change) unless you are willing to change and learn the language?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have changed a lot. I am a lot more patient than before, and consider myself a good listener. As in my previous post, I do not need to be fluent in Thai to get a point across. I know how to speak and have basic conversations. I am not walking around with 10x5 poster cards with cartoons to explain my point. All of the managers here speak English and our meetings are held in English. Again, to bring up the original post, this has to do with middle management's desires to continue with old habits and not willing to learn new ideas or the unwillingness to understand TQM or other work concepts.

I take exception to the issue that we are involved in generalizations. We are not, ask any falang manager and they will tell you the same. It is a cultural issue and I am not here to change it, but to give new ideas on how to run a business. Which this country desperately needs in order to compete in the REAL world.

Sniper

Sniper.

[mowlem]

Sniper,

Firstly, I do manage a large number of Thais. So your perceptions of me are wrong aren't they? (Oh and I have to do much of my work in Thai) I have worked for several Thai companies both in Bangkok and outside, up here in Isaan.

You say you have meetings. Thai-style meetings, (for rubber stamping only) or farang style (actual discussons)?

I didn't suggest you get "involved" with them, but staff parties/tios are important. My boss takes the senior staff out in twos and trees over a couple of months to discuss work in a more relaxed atmosphere, and to get a more accurate feedback. This is his only real opportunity to pick our brains, and for us to warn of problems ahead, or things he should know about.

I not implying that most Thai workplaces are corrupt, they are. But the staff don't involve you. Ask your wife, she'll find out. (Check your supply contracts/security personnel agreement for starters) How much shrinkage do you allow for?

Still don't believe me? Find out which staff have "friends in high places". U.S. companies in particular have no backhanders policy. So doing business here, they don't. They just employ the daughter of the local MP (or local bigshot) as a "secretary" or whatever. She does nothing but sit on the payroll. But it isn't a "bribe" is it?

Also, you seem to plan to live here, with a Thai wife and in-laws. You not speaking Thai sends a powerful message. I noticed you didn't fault me on the fact I said you have not learnt the culture.

[chechoie]

Have worked with very many Thai office staff and Thai field staff in LOS and outside LOS for more years than I care to remember.

I can testify that there are, good and bad, ambitious and lazy bastards, keen and dull, amongst them all.

I do think that the Thai education system has a lot to answer for, but a plugged in, switched on and tuned up Thai, (born that way), will go as far as the next guy.

Have seen it.

[Vit42]

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference." --Reinhold Niebuhr, The Serenity Prayer

Though I’m far from having a religious bent, I’ve always found solace in the above words.

I agree with chechoie, bad and good people all over the world. In my career of managing 100+ engineers in thailand for a semiconductor company, managing sales and faes in china and taiwan, managing project managers in the u.s. and europe, I’ve found that cultural differences aside, people are the same wherever you go.

Knowing how to motivate your workers shows your ability to culturally understand and assimilate their individual raison d’etre. Trying to fit your preconceived notions of “what’s best for them” on them is a sure recipe for failure in any culture.

Serenity now! – Frank Costanza

[SiamOne]

and lets not turn this into a "I've got a bigger one than you" debate

[OldAsiaHand]

Here we go again with the stereotyping and over the top generalizations about “them” as if all thais were the same. Not to mention the hypocrisy that led many foreigners to Thailand in the first place, namely to go someplace that they can relax and enjoy themselves and escape the never ending rat race of western societies.

Don’t worry mates, in due time you’ll get your dream and Thailand will be transformed to satisfy your so-called civilized way of living and thais will become as greedy for success as most falangs.

In the meantime, keep asking yourself, how I could make “them” understand that if they would only listen to me and change for the “better”, all would be right in the world. After all, the western world is full of wonderful examples of how the great things could be if all of us just work our asses off, get nice and fat, and die of heart attacks.

To answer the op's original question: you got yourself into another country with another way of doing things. Change is possible but how do you expect "them" to be willing to change (or respect someone who tells "them" to change) unless you are willing to change and learn the language?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, Christ, here we go. The cry of the sanctimonious, self-appointed guardians of the politically correct is about to be heard again in the land.....

Have you ever noticed when someone says that 'they' are lovely, smiling, gentle folk who love us all ever so much that there's never a peep heard out of these smug, superior guardians of self-righteousness about 'cultural generalizations?'

But when you utter even a single word that might be taken as criticism of 'them,' the preachy, moralizing, pious types come spilling out of the trees to remind everyone how superior they are to rest of us, burdened as we are with our less evolved sense of social justice. Lord help us.

[longway]

Oh, Christ, here we go. The cry of the sanctimonious, self-appointed guardians of the politically correct is about to be heard again in the land.....

Have you ever noticed when someone says that 'they' are lovely, smiling, gentle folk who love us all ever so much that there's never a peep heard out of these smug, superior guardians of self-righteousness about 'cultural generalizations?'

But when you utter even a single word that might be taken as criticism of 'them,' the preachy, moralizing, pious types come spilling out of the trees to remind everyone how superior they are to rest of us, burdened as we are with our less evolved sense of social justice. Lord help us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[x-pat]

On Thai Language: I grant that my Thai isn't the best and I've been learning the language somewhat reluctantly. I speak a few thousand words, read and write in slow motion. I don't know how I could have managed by biz without at least a bit of Thai. While all of our engineers spoke English, the driver, the accountant, the graphics guy and others didn't and it was sometimes necessary to get through to these people as well. But I think it is perfectly possible to do 100% of the mid- and high-level management in English. At least in Bangkok.

On Meetings: As a Thailand greenhorn I once held team meetings, brainstorming sessions, seminars and such, but soon realised the futility of these exercises. Team meetings turned out to be useful only for broadcasting "top-down", otherwise they were quite a waste of time. I communicated with middle managers (project managers in my case) one by one. Nobody wants to speak about difficulties and problems in a big large group meeting. It's considered a loss of face.

On Going Out: Occasional dinner for the staff, birthday parties, free meals, etc. add to the "bunkhun" of the boss. So, I think it's a good thing to do. You can even deduct the expenses from taxes. It gives the staff a chance to socialise outside the office and potentially adds "sanuk" to their jobs. Occasionally, one also gains interesting insights into people ideas and behaviors with rising alcohol levels. I always enjoyed it.

On cronysim/nepotism: I suppose that is more a problem of the Thai companies. Whenever there's an expat at the top of the command, I rarely see this happening because people get selected for their skills, not for their connections. One would have to deal with this thing at the middle management level in large Thai companies. Very difficult. I suppose in a 100% Thai environment the expat can only function in a expert advisor role with limited executive powers.

However, there is one thing that a farang manager probably needs to observe carefully: the peer relationships, internal friendships and enemities. For example, if you berate the receptionist (not a good thing to do anyway) and the receptionist is best friends with the account manager and the sales lady, then you have three people against you, not just one.

Cheers, X-Pat

[Vit42]

Oh, Christ, here we go. The cry of the sanctimonious, self-appointed guardians of the politically correct is about to be heard again in the land.....

Have you ever noticed when someone says that 'they' are lovely, smiling, gentle folk who love us all ever so much that there's never a peep heard out of these smug, superior guardians of self-righteousness about 'cultural generalizations?'

But when you utter even a single word that might be taken as criticism of 'them,' the preachy, moralizing, pious types come spilling out of the trees to remind everyone how superior they are to rest of us, burdened as we are with our less evolved sense of social justice. Lord help us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

“Sanctimonious”, “self-appointed”, “superior guardians”, “preachy”, “moralizing”, “pious types”? Wow, someone’s been reading the bible on the wrong side of the bed. I never knew that voicing one’s opinion could get such high praise.

“politically correct”? I believe the accusations that thai workers are harder to manager, unwilling to change, and so forth is a generalization and are traits that can be found anywhere, even with falang workers. I was voicing what I though was correct but must have gotten the bonus award for being pc too???

“smug” now there’s a word I like. Rhymes with hug, bug, lug, chug, plug, and ug, other words that i like. And being labeled a peepless smug when I don’t disagree with other opinions doesn’t seem that bad. Thanks, oldhandasia for your words of encouragement, enlightenment, and infinite insights into my postings (please note the sarcasm).

[El Taco Loco]

Sniper,

Firstly, I do manage a large number of Thais. So your perceptions of me are wrong aren't they? (Oh and I have to do much of my work in Thai) I have worked for several Thai companies both in Bangkok and outside, up here in Isaan.

You say you have meetings. Thai-style meetings, (for rubber stamping only) or farang style (actual discussons)?

I didn't suggest you get "involved" with them, but staff parties/tios are important. My boss takes the senior staff out in twos and trees over a couple of months to discuss work in a more relaxed atmosphere, and to get a more accurate feedback. This is his only real opportunity to pick our brains, and for us to warn of problems ahead, or things he should know about.

I not implying that most Thai workplaces are corrupt, they are. But the staff don't involve you. Ask your wife, she'll find out. (Check your supply contracts/security personnel agreement for starters) How much shrinkage do you allow for?

Still don't believe me? Find out which staff have "friends in high places". U.S. companies in particular have no backhanders policy. So doing business here, they don't. They just employ the daughter of the local MP (or local bigshot) as a "secretary" or whatever. She does nothing but sit on the payroll. But it isn't a "bribe" is it?

Also, you seem to plan to live here, with a Thai wife and in-laws. You not speaking Thai sends a powerful message. I noticed you didn't fault me on the fact I said you have not learnt the culture.

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I know full well about corruption. It happens here a lot. Stopping it is next to impossible, but we have slowed it down a bit and that forced some of the staff mafia to leave, w hich was what I wanted in the first place.

For you to insinuate that I have not learnt Thai culture is bs. You know nothing of me.

It is apparent, that with your attitude, you clearly have not learnt Thai culture. Shooting from the hip is not recommended, as you may get shot in the back.

Where did I say I had Thai style meetings? Rubberstamping? Where, when?

It appears that your place is in need of a good vaccum cleaning. Mine needs improvement and I am writing here for assistance, not for execution.

[El Taco Loco]

Knowing how to motivate your workers shows your ability to culturally understand and assimilate their individual raison d’etre. Trying to fit your preconceived notions of “what’s best for them” on them is a sure recipe for failure in any culture.

Serenity now! – Frank Costanza

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I can't agree more. You are very right. I consider myself a good listener. I did not come here to turn the place upside down, but rather keep it going straight.

However, my preconceived notions was not of what is best for them, but what is best for the company. They do take things personally and I have to deal with that. Simply implementing policy is quite a struggle. Everyone shakes their head in agreement then it is not implemented.

That is when I scratch my head, sometimes. Motivating the staff is actually easy. I wish sometimes they could motive me. lol

[El Taco Loco]

On Thai Language: I grant that my Thai isn't the best and I've been learning the language somewhat reluctantly. I speak a few thousand words, read and write in slow motion. I don't know how I could have managed by biz without at least a bit of Thai. While all of our engineers spoke English, the driver, the accountant, the graphics guy and others didn't and it was sometimes necessary to get through to these people as well. But I think it is perfectly possible to do 100% of the mid- and high-level management in English. At least in Bangkok.

On Meetings: As a Thailand greenhorn I once held team meetings, brainstorming sessions, seminars and such, but soon realised the futility of these exercises. Team meetings turned out to be useful only for broadcasting "top-down", otherwise they were quite a waste of time. I communicated with middle managers (project managers in my case) one by one. Nobody wants to speak about difficulties and problems in a big large group meeting. It's considered a loss of face.

On Going Out: Occasional dinner for the staff, birthday parties, free meals, etc. add to the "bunkhun" of the boss. So, I think it's a good thing to do. You can even deduct the expenses from taxes. It gives the staff a chance to socialise outside the office and potentially adds "sanuk" to their jobs. Occasionally, one also gains interesting insights into people ideas and behaviors with rising alcohol levels. I always enjoyed it.

On cronysim/nepotism: I suppose that is more a problem of the Thai companies. Whenever there's an expat at the top of the command, I rarely see this happening because people get selected for their skills, not for their connections. One would have to deal with this thing at the middle management level in large Thai companies. Very difficult. I suppose in a 100% Thai environment the expat can only function in a expert advisor role with limited executive powers.

However, there is one thing that a farang manager probably needs to observe carefully: the peer relationships, internal friendships and enemities. For example, if you berate the receptionist (not a good thing to do anyway) and the receptionist is best friends with the account manager and the sales lady, then you have three people against you, not just one.

Cheers, X-Pat

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Agreed with everything you said. Being too hand-on is not good either, otherwise they start wondering why you are the boss. The issue with relationships. Inevitably there are family relationships here and are quite hidden, but they surface once in a while. We avoid nepotism, but difficult to kill it off once they are hired without my knowledge.

We do have our outside dinners and we have fun, do the karaoke thing and I enjoy it. But do not do it often.

On meetings. They help somewhat. My meetings are more frequent exactly for the reason you stated, the loss of face in a meeting group. Comes with the territory.

Thanks for your comment.

[El Taco Loco]

and lets not turn this into a "I've got a bigger one than you" debate  

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Feels that way. I avoid some posts as it is more of a post hijack than constructive criticism or opinions.

[mowlem]

I was being constructive.

You claimed I made a generalization about corruption, yet then go on to agree with me that corruption takes place in your hotel (which you manage)

You wrote that you are a good listener, yet stated that I "showed my style of management" when I made some valid points about your lack of language skills, and that "I wouldn't last a day". Seemed to contradict your good listening skills when something you don't like is raised by getting personal. (and incorrect BTW)

On meetings, I was trying to find out what your style actually was, managers usually go with one style. I wasn't actually criticising you.

[think_too_mut]

Not replying to anyone.

Just wondering what would happen if some of the posters managing places in Thailand and me managing a place in Japan apply for a managing job.

Would they have an advantage because they did it in Thailand, would I be an underdog just by the virtue of the isolated Japanese culture and biz environment?

Say, the new job is in Singapore or Hong Kong.