Rama 5

[Stuart_O]

Hi,

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm confused about something.

Someone in my girlfriends family has given me an old buddha image. A small one that sits nicely in a small case that I hang around my neck. I'm not really Buddhist, as I don't understand it well enough.

Anyway, too the point. This Buddha image has Rama 5 on one side and Buddha sat lotus position, nine steps up on the other side.

I have seen this several times before (Rama 5 and Buddha). What I don't understand is the relationship between the two. My gf family vaguelly describe Rama 5 as a powerful Buddha, but I can not communicate well enough with them to get a clear answer.

Like I said, I don't know much, so any info would be appreciated.

Thanks

[chownah]

Rama 5 was a very popular ruler. He began the modernization of Thailand (then Siam). I believe that he introduced spoons for eating whereas before people ate with their hands....of course he did more than introduce spoons...I'd tell you more but I get confused as to whether Rama 5 or his son Rama 6 did the most to modernize Siam (now Thailand).....anyway....Rama 5's popularity did not pass on when he did and he has gotten more popular ever since and now there is a statue of him in Bangkok where people go and make offerings and basically seem to treat him like a diety. I've never heard that he has been in any way recognized by any Buddhist organization as a Buddha but it seems from your girlfriend's family's comments about him that some/many Thai's do. I think that in Thailand if you want to think that someone is a diety then you have to think that they are a Buddha so that your feelings don't conflict with Buddhist doctrine.

[Limbo]

You are right Chownah, it was the Great King, Rama V.

He was the monarch who managed to prevent Siam from being colonialized.

He appointed Chao Phya Abhai Raja to do the negotiations with the French after the Paknam incident. This Prince was nobody else than Gustave Rolin-Jaquemyns, a Belgian jurist.

Between the two foreign princes in Thai history there is quite a difference: Phaulkon the Greek (the time of King Narai, - 1688) took in the French Jezuits, followed by a 600 men strong French army and Gustave the Belgian (in Siam between 1892 and 1901) did the contrary: He managed to keep the French out of Siam.

The more you read about the Great King, the more respect you get.

Limbo.

[Stuart_O]

Thanks for your comments. I am especially interested in Chownahs idea

I think that in Thailand if you want to think that someone is a diety then you have to think that they are a Buddha so that your feelings don't conflict with Buddhist doctrine.

I would like to learn more about how gernerally Thai culture considers their Kings especially Rama 5. Also the Hindu patheon of dieties.

[Khutan]

I thought also one of the reasons for King Rama 5 such popularity also was he stopped slavery.

Apart from also founding modern science in Thailand and many other quite amazing things from an obviously very clever and great man.

[TizMe]

We have a large picture of King Rama V on the wall. Each night before bed Mrs TizMe wais to KRV and wispers a prayer.

She says that each night she thanks him for freeing Thailand's people from slavery.

BTW. Each Tuesday morning (apparently he was born on a Tuesday) he also gets a glass of brandy, some fruit and a vase of roses put out for him.

[sabaijai]

The veneration of Rama V (aka King Chulalongkorn; regnum 1868-1910) dates to the era of the 1991 military coup and the 1990-92 economic recession. Along with the worsening traffic in pre-BTS days, these events brought about a general mistrust of modern politics, technology and affluence among many Thais, who began looking for a new spiritual outlet with historical relevancy.

The disaffected middle class seized on Rama V, who without the help of a parliament or the military had brought Thai nationalism to the fore while fending off European colonisation. As mattnich mentioned, the king is also considered a champion of the common person for his abolition of slavery and corvee (the requirement that every citizen be available for state labour when called).

The Rama V cult is particularly strong among Thais working in commerce. Other than the ubiquitous amulets and photos, devotional activities focus on a bronze statue of Rama V standing in Royal Plaza, near the Vimanmek Palace and Abihisek throne hall compound. Although originally intended as historical commemoration, the statue has become a religious shrine, where every Tuesday evening thousands of Bangkok residents come to offer candles, flowers (predominantly pink roses), incense and bottles of liquor.

[Limbo]

Thanks Sabaijai, a great posting.

Indeed, among Thais working in commerce.

I had Sino-Thai in mind, it came close though.

Limbo

[chechoie]

The veneration of Rama V (aka King Chulalongkorn; regnum 1868-1910) dates to the era of the 1991 military coup and the 1990-92 economic recession. Along with the worsening traffic in pre-BTS days, these events brought about a general mistrust of modern politics, technology and affluence among many Thais, who began looking for a new spiritual outlet with historical relevancy.

The disaffected middle class seized on Rama V, who without the help of a parliament or the military had brought Thai nationalism to the fore while fending off European colonisation. As mattnich mentioned, the king is also considered a champion of the common person for his abolition of slavery and corvee (the requirement that every citizen be available for state labour when called).

The Rama V cult is particularly strong among Thais working in commerce. Other than the ubiquitous amulets and photos, devotional activities focus on a bronze statue of Rama V standing in Royal Plaza, near the Vimanmek Palace and Abihisek throne hall compound. Although originally intended as historical commemoration, the statue has become a religious shrine, where every Tuesday evening thousands of Bangkok residents come to offer candles, flowers (predominantly pink roses), incense and bottles of liquor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have taken an interest in Rama V, and have done a bit of research on this man.

I do not agree with a lot of what sabaijai says.

I would venture to say that there is more to the Rama V cult than the military coup in 1991, the economic recession between 1990 and 92, (if you could call it that), and the bad Bangkok traffic during this period.

I would also question the thinking behind, the, (assumed), mistrust of modern politics, technology and affluence among the Thai majority following this period.

I have not yet met a Thai who has a problem with modern politics, (check out Thai Ruk Thai’s vote count), technology, (they love their mobile phones etc), and affluence, (are you kidding?).

The presumption that Thais began looking for a new spiritual outlet because of what happened during the years between 1990 and 1992 is conjecture on sabaijai’s part, I would think.

I have seen pictures, (cheap reproductions), of Rama 5, in common Thai households that where hung long before 1990.

(Admittedly I think the majority of the Thai business people, (Thai Chinese mostly), will worship anything they think will give them an edge).

As mattnich mentioned, “this king is also considered a champion of the common person for his abolition of slavery”, (amongst many other things I might add).

I think this, (amongst many other things), is what endears this King to the common Thai people.

My wife has a real and genuine reverence for King Chulalongkorn which goes back to her childhood, (and she is now 51 years old).

[Stuart_O]

Thanks for the postings.

The Buddha image with King Rama 5 on the flip side which has been passed down to me is 3 generations old and was in Ubon at least 70 years ago from what I gather.

[chownah]

I often see pictures of various monks in places of honor in homes and vehicles and even pendants with various monks on/in them...like the ones with buddha images only with monks. I'm wondering if Rama V being honored is the same thing as with these monks or if its a different phenomenon.

Edited August 27, 2005 by meadish_sweetball

[sabaijai]

The veneration of Rama V (aka King Chulalongkorn; regnum 1868-1910) dates to the era of the 1991 military coup and the 1990-92 economic recession. Along with the worsening traffic in pre-BTS days, these events brought about a general mistrust of modern politics, technology and affluence among many Thais, who began looking for a new spiritual outlet with historical relevancy.

The disaffected middle class seized on Rama V, who without the help of a parliament or the military had brought Thai nationalism to the fore while fending off European colonisation. As mattnich mentioned, the king is also considered a champion of the common person for his abolition of slavery and corvee (the requirement that every citizen be available for state labour when called).

The Rama V cult is particularly strong among Thais working in commerce. Other than the ubiquitous amulets and photos, devotional activities focus on a bronze statue of Rama V standing in Royal Plaza, near the Vimanmek Palace and Abihisek throne hall compound. Although originally intended as historical commemoration, the statue has become a religious shrine, where every Tuesday evening thousands of Bangkok residents come to offer candles, flowers (predominantly pink roses), incense and bottles of liquor.

I have taken an interest in Rama V, and have done a bit of research on this man.

I do not agree with a lot of what sabaijai says.

I would venture to say that there is more to the Rama V cult than the military coup in 1991, the economic recession between 1990 and 92, (if you could call it that), and the bad Bangkok traffic during this period.

I would also question the thinking behind, the, (assumed), mistrust of modern politics, technology and affluence among the Thai majority following this period.

I have not yet met a Thai who has a problem with modern politics, (check out Thai Ruk Thai’s vote count), technology, (they love their mobile phones etc), and affluence, (are you kidding?).

The presumption that Thais began looking for a new spiritual outlet because of what happened during the years between 1990 and 1992 is conjecture on sabaijai’s part, I would think.

I have seen pictures, (cheap reproductions), of Rama 5, in common Thai households that where hung long before 1990.

(Admittedly I think the majority of the Thai business people, (Thai Chinese mostly), will worship anything they think will give them an edge).

As mattnich mentioned, “this king is also considered a champion of the common person for his abolition of slavery”, (amongst many other things I might add).

I think this, (amongst many other things), is what endears this King to the common Thai people.

My wife has a real and genuine reverence for King Chulalongkorn which goes back to her childhood, (and she is now 51 years old).

Reverence for individual Thai kings goes all the way back to the Sukhothai era, and portraits of Thai monarchs on amulets, etc, has long been a popular custom. What I meant was that the Tuesday worshipping at the Rama V's statue began in the 90-92 period. I was here then and watched the cult rise during that period. Before that time it was not at all common, as far as I remember, to see 'side shrines' dedicated to Rama V in Thai homes, but it's now somewhat common.

Commentaries on a middle-class distrust of technology and modern politics appeared in many Thai publications at the time (early to mid 90s), they're not something I dreamt up on my own. As I recall there were a few university surveys that came to the same conclusions.

Of course attitudes about tecnology and politics are contradicted by the actual Thai lifestyle. However the rise of Thai Rak Thai can be seen as a further symptom of Thai nationalism

Here are online references with further details on how the cult accelerated in the early 90s:

http://personal.lse.ac.uk/ringmar/gv265/le...east%20asia.pdf - see page 10

Rama V cult

Disagreement about city basis of Rama V cult

And if you can find it in a university library:

Thongchai Winichakul. 2001. “Prawatisat thai baep rachachatniyom: chak yuk ananikhonm amphrang su rachachatniyom mai ru latthi sadet phor khorn kradumphi thai nai patchuban” (Royalist-Nationalist History: From the Era of Crypto-Colonialism to the new Royalist-Nationalism, or the Contemporary Thai Bourgeois Cult of Rama V). Silapawathanatham (Arts and Culture) 23, no. 1 (November).

[sabaijai]

more:

Love for the regency of Thailand takes a more overt religious form in the Rama V cult. Following the coups and economic slumps of the early 90s, the Thai middle class and urban intellectuals developed a mistrust of modern politics and constitutional monarchy and looked to the past for salvation. They found a demigod in Rama V, or Chulalongkorn, who cultivated Thai nationalism while successfully fending off the threats of Western colonization. (Thailand is the only country in the region never to have been colonized, a fact of which all Thais are very proud). However, Rama V is largely responsible for much of the cultural Westernization of the Kingdom. He was the first monarch to travel to Europe (in 1897) and, upon his return, he introduced the spoon and fork (replacing the previous implements: hands) and the chair (replacing the floor).

Rama V cult

Stengs, Irene. 2002. “Worshipping the Great Moderniser: The Cult of King Chulalongkorn, Patron Saint of the Middle Class.” Ph.D. thesis, University of Amsterdam

Chulalongkorn

Nidhi Aeusrivongse (Nithi Iaos wong). 1993. "Latthi phith sadet pho Ro. 5" (The Cult of King Rama V). Sinlapawatthan tham (Art and Culture), 14.10:76-98, 2536.

latthi ro. 5

[Mr. Farang]

This was a super informative and useful thread - very high quality - the kind of topic I would like to see more of here on ThaiVisa.

Thank you, all the posters, for such a excellent thread!!

Edited August 27, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[cobra]

This was a super  informative and useful  thread - very high quality - the kind of topic  I would like to see more of here on ThaiVisa. 

Thank you, all the posters,  for such a excellent thread!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fully agree, very educational, thanx