Eight People Killed In Grisly Bangkok Tollway Accident

[TheJalapenoKid]

absolutely horrific .... thoughts and prayers go out to their families and friends... R.I.P.

[maswov]

Its not only the minibus drivers, it is a majority of the drivers on the road, not only Thai drivers but farang drivers too. Most of the farang do the same stupid shit as everyone else, mob mentality maybe, who knows.

[Barin]

I have driven my pickup a few times from Isaan to Bangkok (about 500 km distance). As you are approaching Bangkok at the distance of about 200 kilometres from it you may notice how the driving style of the passing cars is changing, it becomes more and more aggressive as you are entering the greater Bangkok area.

And my impression is that the driving style in Bangkok itself is very aggressive as compared to other places in Thailand.

However in Moscow the driving style is much more aggressive than it is in Bangkok....

"Thus all things are known by comparison" as Leon Battista Alberti said...

I believe the aggressive and selfish driving style results from the lack of discipline, the lack of general human culture.

[BigBikeBKK]

Its not only the minibus drivers, it is a majority of the drivers on the road, not only Thai drivers but farang drivers too. Most of the farang do the same stupid shit as everyone else, mob mentality maybe, who knows.

When in Rome my friend

[neverdie]

Speed didn't cause this terrible accident, reckless driving did.

Speed appears to have been an essential ingrediant in the 'reckless driving' that caused this aweful incident.

Some people on the thread like to speed around like their gods gift, they also have similar arguments to yours & on an internet forum one could go back and forth forever. Of course some people here may be educated, experienced and well qualified to discuss issues that relate to speed & road safety but most likely the majority only think they are.

It would be easy to say, 'speed inappropriate for the conditions kills'. This theory has been tested time and time again & is NEVER proven wrong.

Of course the Authorities hang road signs and speed advisory/limit signs around the place based on what is and what isnt appropriate for any given section of road. At times, travelling the speed limit on any given section of road isnt appropriate depending on traffic condtions, weather or any number of given number of reasons. It is possible for someone to travel at a speed lower than the prevailing limit & still to be travelling at a speed TOO EXCESSIVE FOR THE CONDTIONS.

Another problem with the old, speed doesnt kill arguement is that just because one driver might be appropriately skilled or experienced to 'speed safely' (ie: maintain control over his/her vehicle) doesnt mean the other drivers that just happen to be using the same road are adequetely equipted to deal with vehicles driving in such a fashion. Of course here in LOS, we are all aware of what is required for people to actually obtain a drivers licence & in some cases just the ability to be able to buy a car or apply for a loan & part with a bit of side cash is enough.

Finally BBBKK, whilst in a perfect situation, I will accept a portion of your notion, the basics of it here in Thailand & many other places, on roads that are open to the general public, THIS IS FAR FROM THE 'PERFECT SITUATION' and therefore excessive speed most certainly is something that kills. My bet is, it does so daily and will continue to. I would also consider that its highly probable that in some cases here speed alone has killed, with no other act of reckless driving involved.

I hope the people that died in this collision RIP & my thoughts and condolences are with their families and friends.

[neverdie]

Its not only the minibus drivers, it is a majority of the drivers on the road, not only Thai drivers but farang drivers too. Most of the farang do the same stupid shit as everyone else, mob mentality maybe, who knows.

When in Rome my friend

There was another TV poster that posted those exact same words on a thread about drink driving. I recall he was later killed on the roads here, I'm not sure what the circumstance surrounding that incident were.

I hope history doesnt repeat itself T.

[Brewsta]

Totally agree as my night visa run to Vientianne early in the summer on a mini-bus included the driver stopping for two hours in the middle of the night so that he could quaff a large bottle of suspicious llooking 'refreshment''.

His subsequent driving as dawn was rising included some seriously dodgy F1 style driving and crazy speeds, accompanied by tuneless singing & whistling plus an inane grin when questioned by the 2 of us who were too wary to sleep. Very scary stuff I can tell you!!!!!

I will prob rent a car and do the Chiang Mai- Laos run myself next time.

regards and stay safe, y'all.

Brewsta

For anyone that has taken one of those mini-vans this scenario can be all too real. The other day I had to have myself and all the other passengers converse with the driver just to keep him awake. This was when it was just getting dark and I was seeing the driver's eyes starting to close. Obviously it worked out ok.

Rest in Peace passengers. Very sad.

.....oh' yes... if ever I can avoid using their services I will... Visa-Runs...

Irresponsible ego-maniac-caffeine-taurin freaks, who think they can do "it all"... if only a very small thing goes wrong.... well, end of the story!

Edited December 28, 2010 by Brewsta

[apollo13]

Rest in peace. Horrific accident also in Korat Saturday. Sympathy to the families. In God we trust.

But has he got a licence ?

[atyclb]

There is one van driver for the On Nut lotus tesco visa run that has terrified even on board Phillipinos. Lateral g-forces from changing lanes as well as de-celleration prevents passengers from sleeping. High speed tailgating yet another part of the adventure.

[BigBikeBKK]

Speed didn't cause this terrible accident, reckless driving did.

Finally BBBKK, whilst in a perfect situation, I will accept a portion of your notion, the basics of it here in Thailand & many other places, on roads that are open to the general public, THIS IS FAR FROM THE 'PERFECT SITUATION' and therefore excessive speed most certainly is something that kills. My bet is, it does so daily and will continue to.

I think we're splitting hairs and getting caught up in semantics. Thing is mate, I agree with you 100% that excessive speed can and does kill!

I've observed there is certainly an element of fatalism in the mindset of many drivers and passengers here in Thailand- the idea that when your number is up there's not much you can do about it. While I don't agree with that type of thinking I think it goes a long way to explain why some people drive recklessly here and why so many passengers tolerate it.

I've lived and travelled in Muslim countries where no one bothers to wear seatbelts and everyone mutters an "Inchallah" (God Willing) at the beginning of every trip before they put the pedal to the metal and leave their fates up to Allah... In some ways I find many Buddhists seem to share a similar philosophy. Why wear a seatbelt or obey traffic laws- my fate is in the hand of Lord Buddha...

Like it or dislike it, this is the society we live in here in Thailand. It's a country of some 66 million people. It's a bit arrogant for a handful of foreigners to preach down to our Thai hosts and expect them to change their driving habits on our account. Of the folks out driving on the roads how many do you think even possess a drivers license? Of those that possess a license, how many actually know how to drive?

[adamjohn]

As a farang; I see a huge culture difference in driving- it is called courtesy! Thai people can't understand the word or meaning of it.

Proof; why every intersection, thai person "must" get in front of person already there? Rude; another word Thai people don't accept or understand!

End result- this type of accident....

If I am wrong; explain why you must get in front of a person; what makes you so much more important than the person already there?

[Neonben]

The advert on the english news channel sell it as "welcome to relaxing Thailand", i'm convinced there is some confusion here and it's interpreted as "welcome to exciting Thailand".

There is one van driver for the On Nut lotus tesco visa run that has terrified even on board Phillipinos. Lateral g-forces from changing lanes as well as de-celleration prevents passengers from sleeping. High speed tailgating yet another part of the adventure.

[jbrewer]

Rest in peace. Horrific accident also in Korat Saturday. Sympathy to the families. In God we trust.

Rest in peace yes........In God we trust...........no way! Life is up to each and every one of us! Nobody else!

Agreed!

[BigBikeBKK]

Its not only the minibus drivers, it is a majority of the drivers on the road, not only Thai drivers but farang drivers too. Most of the farang do the same stupid shit as everyone else, mob mentality maybe, who knows.

When in Rome my friend

There was another TV poster that posted those exact same words on a thread about drink driving. I recall he was later killed on the roads here, I'm not sure what the circumstance surrounding that incident were.

I hope history doesnt repeat itself T.

Thank you for your kind concern mate. Thing is, I know full well that driving and riding in Thailand is dangerous. Riding in the US was less dangerous, riding in Japan was much safer, riding in Laos and West Africa was much more dangerous. It's all a question of degree. Ultimately it's a personal decision- you either accept the risk and carry on, or you can't / won't accept the risk and stay home... I do everything I can to increase my chances. I don't ride in public minivans or buses here in Thailand. When I'm on the road I wear the best gear, drive/ride defensively and assume every other vehicle out there is going to try and hit me. I've been quite lucky so far. Several hundred thousand km clocked in Thailand without an accident. But I know full well that driving is dangerous and that sooner or later my luck will run out. Hopefully I'll live to tell about it!

Happy Trails!

Tony

[Cheops]

Two things:

Seat belts

Law-enforcement

I use these vans daily, and they are so scary. the drivers don't give give two hoots about the people they are ferrying. quite often they will start cutting each other up at very high speeds. the drivers are supposed to be licensed for the vans but most of the time its a different picture than the actual driver. when they start being maniacs I will tell him to stop and get out and refuse to pay him as he is an idiot putting my life in danger. The Thais, However will just sit there and not say anything, as their face value is worth more thatn their life value.

On the seat belts, about 99% of the vans I have been in have cut out the seat belts. the the lock is still there but the part that wraps around you and locks you in is missing. Try to find it !!! where its supposed to start there is a little bit there and you can see that they have used a knife to cut the rest off. So we don't get a choice to wear a seat belt or not.

Maybe you don't get a choice to wear a seat belt, BUT you have the choice of NOT taking those vans!

For those who defend Thais (I love Thais too, am married with a Thai, have 2 children, so forever connected to Thai): if it comes to driving they are real idiots! And we are not talking about 5% of the drivers here, but more like 95%! This is at least the case in Bangkok. I can't judge in other cities, but if you are driving on a daily basis in Bangkok you simply can't disagree with this. From my opinion 2 things that made Thais drive like this: firstly bad education, secondly loose of face. If you try to just change the lane nobody will let you go first. You really need to agressively put your car in between. And why do you think they all have black or dark films on their windows? No, not for the sun, it's for protecting their face, so other drives can't see them when they act like an idiot and don't need to loose face.

I can write hours and hours here. Driving on daily basis I see many many idiots every day! Normal cars, taxi's, public buses, motorcycles, all of them! I have driven 20 years in my homecountry without any accident, but in the 5 years driving in Thailand I had about 5 incidents. Luckily those were minor accidents. And don't get me started of drivers of public buses in BKK. Some of them should not only loose there job and license, but should be locked up for many years as well for endangering lives on a daily base!

[BigBikeBKK]

As a farang; I see a huge culture difference in driving- it is called courtesy! Thai people can't understand the word or meaning of it.

Proof; why every intersection, thai person "must" get in front of person already there? Rude; another word Thai people don't accept or understand!

End result- this type of accident....

If I am wrong; explain why you must get in front of a person; what makes you so much more important than the person already there?

Funny, I've driven in such cities as Paris, New York and LA and compared to the drivers in those cities I generally find Thai drivers to be quite courteous and JAI YEN. I've never seen road rage here in Thailand like what you witness almost every day on Southern Californian highways... The ability of Bangkok drivers to sit patiently in bumper to bumper traffic for hours on end has taught me new things about the meaning of patience. :jap:

[gregb]

As a farang; I see a huge culture difference in driving- it is called courtesy! Thai people can't understand the word or meaning of it.

Proof; why every intersection, thai person "must" get in front of person already there? Rude; another word Thai people don't accept or understand!

End result- this type of accident....

If I am wrong; explain why you must get in front of a person; what makes you so much more important than the person already there?

It isn't just driving though. It is embedded in the culture. How many times have you been waiting in a queue, whether at a road or just at the mall, only to find everyone else decide that the queue doesn't apply to them? Of course, that is not uniquely Thai trait. Anyone who has ever been to Greece would have to admit many Europeans aren't any better, and there are certainly many countries where this is much worse than Thailand (ever been to India?).

So if the problem is not really just about driving mannerisms (which could be cured) but cultural proclivities in general, how do you solve this problem? Simple. You simply stop promoting the use of all automotive mass transport. Add a huge tax on the registration fees for any operator of any van, large transport truck, or bus. Make these modes of transport too costly to use. Use the taxes generated to subsidize rail transport, which is not only safer, but more economical as well.

Of course, people will scream how inconvenient this is when you try and do it, so it is politically impossible in the current environment. That doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do.

But in my opinion, all the law enforcement and education in the world will never drive an inherent cultural trait from a large group of people. You have to work with what you are given. Either you accept that grisly deaths are inevitable due to people being rude and jostling for position, or you make the system so painful to participate in that nobody uses it anymore.

There is no middle ground. It can not be fixed. It is fundamentally impossible given the Thai culture.

Trains (both cargo and passenger) are the future. How many more have to die before this is accepted?

[neverdie]

It's a bit arrogant for a handful of foreigners to preach down to our Thai hosts and expect them to change their driving habits on our account.

No matter where I go I only ask people to be safe around me and of course I don't think anyone is expecting them to change their driving habits on an individuals account, but rather they should take the time to consider it on their own account. I know what the odds are tho.

Regarding your last two questions, the numbers horrify me.

[neverdie]

As a farang; I see a huge culture difference in driving- it is called courtesy! Thai people can't understand the word or meaning of it.

Proof; why every intersection, thai person "must" get in front of person already there? Rude; another word Thai people don't accept or understand!

End result- this type of accident....

If I am wrong; explain why you must get in front of a person; what makes you so much more important than the person already there?

So true.

[buba]

Thailand lost the honour of holding the award for being the worst drivers in the worl to India a couple of years back, they want it back and mini bus drivers are doing all they can to help.

Every day you see these brainless morons racing to BKK from Hua Hin, they are just F*****g idiots. Where you at one time could take a blue nad white big bus now stand these morons. And forget insurance claims, it dosent work like that in Thailand, also forget PSV driving license, have you seen the driving test here , ha ha its a joke.

[Cheops]

As a farang; I see a huge culture difference in driving- it is called courtesy! Thai people can't understand the word or meaning of it.

Proof; why every intersection, thai person "must" get in front of person already there? Rude; another word Thai people don't accept or understand!

End result- this type of accident....

If I am wrong; explain why you must get in front of a person; what makes you so much more important than the person already there?

Anyone who has ever been to Greece would have to admit many Europeans aren't any better, and there are certainly many countries where this is much worse than Thailand (ever been to India?).

I have stopped reading your post after this sentence. So you have been to Greece and think that many Europeans aren't any better? Do you also think that Europe is 1 country or something? From what planet are you?

[cmsally]

In this case it is a mixture of speed and attitude. My family knows 2 people that were on that bus, one is now deceased and the other undergoing surgery in hospital. It was a horrific accident apparently caused by the car behind ramming into the back of the minibus. The minibus was of course travelling at too high speed and was sent off course into a pillar/ barricade - something concrete. It apparently was leaning over the edge and force of impact meant that the door was flung open and some people fell out onto the road many metres below. Some people were saved by others in the van physically holding on to them, they should be acclaimed for their quick thinking basically doing the job of an absent seatbelt. For those that claim speed doesn't kill; well sorry it does here because a large percentage of the drivers are ..... The other thing that contributes to it is a bad attitude and sorry Bangkokians but there is more of that there when it comes to driving. You are simply driving too close - back off! Just today after this incident I was driving back from Doi Saket and there was someone right on my tail, any closer and he would have been sitting with my dog in the back compartment! I am driving average speed but am stuck behind a few others. This jerk proceeds to hoot and then overtake in the left lane which is blocked by motorbikes, then cut in front of me. Then he somehow worked his way between lanes, I think he had everyone scared to death at this stage so they parted for him. Guess what a Bangkok registration plate. This has happened a few times and always BKK regis.

This horrific accident could have been prevented by 3 things - less speed, keeping an appropriate distance from the vehicle in front (something BKK drivers know sod all about), and seatbelts. With 15 people in a van they are overloaded and seatbelts not used. For those that say we shouldn't preach to the Thais (although a lot of Thais of course do know how to drive, there is just an unfortunately large amount who don;t) about road safety, I have just a few things to say.

A lot of Thais would like the roads to be safer, there are more cars on the roads than ever so without proper regulation there will be more accidents. Some drivers have anything but a Sabai attitude, they take their frustrations out while behind the wheel. Lastly I hope that no one else has to see any of their friends and relations die in such a tragic and horrific way.

RIP those who lost their lives and our thoughts are with those still in hospital for a speedy recovery.

[neverdie]

As a farang; I see a huge culture difference in driving- it is called courtesy! Thai people can't understand the word or meaning of it.

Proof; why every intersection, thai person "must" get in front of person already there? Rude; another word Thai people don't accept or understand!

End result- this type of accident....

If I am wrong; explain why you must get in front of a person; what makes you so much more important than the person already there?

It isn't just driving though. It is embedded in the culture. How many times have you been waiting in a queue, whether at a road or just at the mall, only to find everyone else decide that the queue doesn't apply to them? Of course, that is not uniquely Thai trait. Anyone who has ever been to Greece would have to admit many Europeans aren't any better, and there are certainly many countries where this is much worse than Thailand (ever been to India?).

So if the problem is not really just about driving mannerisms (which could be cured) but cultural proclivities in general, how do you solve this problem? Simple. You simply stop promoting the use of all automotive mass transport. Add a huge tax on the registration fees for any operator of any van, large transport truck, or bus. Make these modes of transport too costly to use. Use the taxes generated to subsidize rail transport, which is not only safer, but more economical as well.

Of course, people will scream how inconvenient this is when you try and do it, so it is politically impossible in the current environment. That doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do.

But in my opinion, all the law enforcement and education in the world will never drive an inherent cultural trait from a large group of people. You have to work with what you are given. Either you accept that grisly deaths are inevitable due to people being rude and jostling for position, or you make the system so painful to participate in that nobody uses it anymore.

There is no middle ground. It can not be fixed. It is fundamentally impossible given the Thai culture.

Trains (both cargo and passenger) are the future. How many more have to die before this is accepted?

I read what you're saying, however I have never been able to accept that 'bad behaviour' is acceptable because of 'cultural' reasons. Like alot of you, my other half is Thai. A couple of days ago a woman entering a building let the door go in her face, I was there I saw it, the woman swung the door behind her, whilst fully aware there were people immediately behind. I caught the door before it hit her or the old lady next to her. My misses spoke up & gave this twit a serve for being so inconsiderate. I've notice that sort of thing alot here, there is no cultural excuse for it, its just rudeness.

Cutting lines, turning left from the 4th (far right) lane on the highway, pulling out of a side street directly into the path of vehicles coming the other way, moving through traffic without considering who is directly next to you or behind, its all poor human behaviour (thats not cultural, cars havent been around long enough for it to be cultural). There's no shortage of it here. Window dress it however you like, its just rudeness.

[supaprik]

just sad as usual

[sirchai]

ACCIDENTS AT SPEED KILL, Germany has relatively low accident rates on Autobahn's, unfortunately right across Asia people drive their vehicles like kids who have just passed their test, showing off and having something to prove.

The problem is with people thinking driving fast, showing off or dangerously is cool.

Rest in peace. Horrific accident also in Korat Saturday. Sympathy to the families. In God we trust.

Yes of course, "Sympathy to the families" and to the survivors for the lifelong burden of horror they must endure.

"In God we trust" .. this is about burry your head in the sand, and relieve yourself of responsibility.

With great trepedation I have used those vans between Nakhon Sawan and Bkk. I am horrified by the speeds they fly at, and knew that I would see an accicident soon. An so it has come to pass.

SPEED KILLS !!!

When will the $hit-for-brains 'authorities' do something about it, and the shit-for-brains drivers take heed?

When I am asked how far North of Bkk my village is, I say "Approx 3 hours drive" .. or ... " 2 hours 'pod racing' in the vans". So what price do we pay for saving that hour? Today's news is the answer. But for as long as there is vested interest in speeding, with only the risk of death when something goes horribly wrong, the hazzard will remain. You need to hit Thais where it hurts most in this land of superficial Buddhism, > the wallet. And for the foreigner who speeds > the wallet and the Visa, with expulsion for serious offences and repeated minor offenses. And I mean expulsion with no chance of return.

"In God we trust"? .. no thanks. I'd rather see something real, like tightly controlled speed limits.

"In God we trust" must come from an American. Didn't they have god on their side, when they invaded the Iraq?

Edited December 28, 2010 by sirchai

[BigBikeBKK]

It's a bit arrogant for a handful of foreigners to preach down to our Thai hosts and expect them to change their driving habits on our account.

No matter where I go I only ask people to be safe around me and of course I don't think anyone is expecting them to change their driving habits on an individuals account, but rather they should take the time to consider it on their own account. I know what the odds are tho.

Regarding your last two questions, the numbers horrify me.

Did I ask a question?

[sirchai]

As a farang; I see a huge culture difference in driving- it is called courtesy! Thai people can't understand the word or meaning of it.

Proof; why every intersection, thai person "must" get in front of person already there? Rude; another word Thai people don't accept or understand!

End result- this type of accident....

If I am wrong; explain why you must get in front of a person; what makes you so much more important than the person already there?

Anyone who has ever been to Greece would have to admit many Europeans aren't any better, and there are certainly many countries where this is much worse than Thailand (ever been to India?).

I have stopped reading your post after this sentence. So you have been to Greece and think that many Europeans aren't any better? Do you also think that Europe is 1 country or something? From what planet are you?

Greecy Europe!! Seems that this guys has got serious mental malfunctions. Guess a city like India is a good example of bad behavior regarding writing nonsense.

[moskito]

Two things:

Seat belts

Law-enforcement

I use these vans daily, and they are so scary. the drivers don't give give two hoots about the people they are ferrying. quite often they will start cutting each other up at very high speeds. the drivers are supposed to be licensed for the vans but most of the time its a different picture than the actual driver. when they start being maniacs I will tell him to stop and get out and refuse to pay him as he is an idiot putting my life in danger. The Thais, However will just sit there and not say anything, as their face value is worth more thatn their life value.

On the seat belts, about 99% of the vans I have been in have cut out the seat belts. the the lock is still there but the part that wraps around you and locks you in is missing. Try to find it !!! where its supposed to start there is a little bit there and you can see that they have used a knife to cut the rest off. So we don't get a choice to wear a seat belt or not.

Maybe you don't get a choice to wear a seat belt, BUT you have the choice of NOT taking those vans!

For those who defend Thais (I love Thais too, am married with a Thai, have 2 children, so forever connected to Thai): if it comes to driving they are real idiots! And we are not talking about 5% of the drivers here, but more like 95%! This is at least the case in Bangkok. I can't judge in other cities, but if you are driving on a daily basis in Bangkok you simply can't disagree with this. From my opinion 2 things that made Thais drive like this: firstly bad education, secondly loose of face. If you try to just change the lane nobody will let you go first. You really need to agressively put your car in between. And why do you think they all have black or dark films on their windows? No, not for the sun, it's for protecting their face, so other drives can't see them when they act like an idiot and don't need to loose face.

I can write hours and hours here. Driving on daily basis I see many many idiots every day! Normal cars, taxi's, public buses, motorcycles, all of them! I have driven 20 years in my homecountry without any accident, but in the 5 years driving in Thailand I had about 5 incidents. Luckily those were minor accidents. And don't get me started of drivers of public buses in BKK. Some of them should not only loose there job and license, but should be locked up for many years as well for endangering lives on a daily base!

you are absolutely right here. I am driving all kinds of cars and bikes since 30 years too, but BKK I will never drive again, one time on the way from Phuket to Nongkhai was more than enough to learn that all this idiots in one place is worst case szenario. Just a single small accident back in Germany when a girl crached my standing car from behind. 3 small Motobike accidents and a serious Truck accident in Thailand in 12 years time. The one with my Truck was when a Watertruck fully loaded hit me with 60kmh two o clock in the morning in Kata in a road which was just 3m wide.

Dont ask me how many accidents I saw with my own eyes, how many injured people etc. My count on death people caused by traffic accidents here is at 12 people so far. Worst one was a huge 30ton Truck standing with its double wheels on a motobike, between the wheels and the bike was still the dying driver....or you ever saw someone who has his face on his back because the neck was broken? Totally normal in Thailand and I BET every Thai has a dead family member which died on a road here. I BLAME MOST OF THEM TO THE GOVERNMENT OF THAILAND and its education politics....but anyway, just a waste of data and time wasted typing

[Cheops]

"SPEED KILLS" is a catchy slogan, but doesn't reflect reality.

Yes it DOES!:

Seven were killed after their speeding pick-up truck crashed into a supporting pillar of a pedestrian bridge in Bangkok Tuesday morning.

Read more here about another deadly accident: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/429439-7-killed-in-bangkok-after-pick-up-crashes-into-pedestrian-bridge/

[neverdie]

Of the folks out driving on the roads how many do you think even possess a drivers license? Of those that possess a license, how many actually know how to drive?

Yes T, you asked these two questions .