Punish The Parents To Set An Example On Law And Order In Thailand

[Nisa]

Interesting numbers, from the thread about holiday accident deaths in Thailand over the New Years week, regarding unlicensed drivers:

At 2,533 checkpoints... about 825,000 vehicles were stopped and 100,587 traffic-law violators were charged - mostly for riding motorcycles without helmets, at 29,736 cases, followed by 28,482 cases of driving without a licence.

[drdoom6996]

I see this as the most relevant comment, "a case of privileged people thinking that they are above the law."

and this attitude works down the chain, even in my poor village there are those who think they are entitled to more privileges than others.

This is a "pecking order" society.

Anyone who knows "the right people" in this country are Above The Law. The BIB act like they don't see almost any road offenses unless they are at a roadblock to catch persons without a helmet. In countries that the 16 year old children are allowed to drive the girl in question would be facing manslaughter charges at the very least and would be tried as an adult. It will be interesting to see what happens in the end, if anything at all.

[Prapoj]

I understand if the parents allow the kids to drive, but if the kids drive without their parents knowledge, that is crossing the line. Many of you have kids and teenagers and all of us were teenagers at one point. For the most of us our parents did not condone the things we did, and if we were caught by them we would have been punished.

So if parents are held accountable for our actions, being caught by the authorities is a better deal, you get a walk while mom and dad get jail time.

I suppose you would rather your children go to jail themselves.

[Prapoj]

Has anyone discovered what caused the accident.

A thai visa investigation team, consisting of highly trained chimpanzee's was dispatched not long after the accident occurred, however, they seem to be having problems with their local ISP and are all caught up trying to define terminolgy used by one of the local print media news papers.

I am sure that they will eventually get to the bottom of this & report back to us all through their highly skilled forum posters who is probably presently asleep after bashing away at the keypad all night in a disagreement with another poster regarding a minor spelling issue.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2010/12/30/national/What-went-wrong-30145480.html

"The van showed no trace of being hit by the sedan" The director of the Traffic and Transport Development and Research Centre, Dr Tawatchai Laosirihongthong, who led the investigation, told the Nation Channel's morning news.

[wackysleet]

drdoom 6996

Anyone who knows "the right people" in this country are Above The Law. The BIB act like they don't see almost any road offenses unless they are at a roadblock to catch persons without a helmet. In countries that the 16 year old children are allowed to drive the girl in question would be facing manslaughter charges at the very least and would be tried as an adult. It will be interesting to see what happens in the end, if anything at all.

Are you assuming that because the young girl did not have a licence that she is automatically guilty, why not wait until the facts are known before joining the hang em high brigade.

[junglist]

In many places of the world 13 years old is time to start acting like an adult. In Thailand I think its 33.

[slipperx]

To add to my earlier post:

I read somewhere that the driver's family is not so poor. However the thought processes of each family member are developed within their surroundings which in this case are Thai and as such they will behave as Thais do. It is expected that when you are exposed for much of your life to people lying, cheating, bribery and corruption at every corner and integral to getting anything done then you will not develop a great respect for the law and will consider these things acceptable behaviour even if in your heart of hearts you know they are not good qualities or ways to behave. Not everyone will turn out to be a cheating lying corrupt person but it will certianly be an influence in the thought process. Hence my comments regarding the effect society has on the population mindset and why society has to change before we will see much change in the way people generally behave here. That an a proper education system - then force parental responsibilty big time. In the meantime no harm to begin with the introduction of some laws to encourage that responsibility

Edited January 4, 2011 by slipperx

[REM]

I agree that all persons involved should be accountable - from the girl who was driving to the her parents and to the person who gave her the keys and the car. Where I'm from, if a minor causes an accident, and they get time in jail, then that time is on them. Afterwords, the parents bear the brunt of the financial responsibility. The community service is put on the minor, not the parent. The parent wasn't driving, but they did fail to properly educate their child on morals. However, this society is very different from western societies, and her you cannot publicly shame someone, and usually the family with the 'nicer' surname prevails, and there is no equality in the eyes of justice here.

We'll see, but I think that justice will never be served in this case, and the mother will continue her daughters abhorrence of the law (which can be very clearly seen where she learned that from.....mommy!), and the person who gave her they keys to the car hasn't even been mentioned. Well, I really feel sorry for the families of the people who died, and I hope the Thai justice system does get something correct here.

[Prapoj]

There is a big school down the road from me.

Everyday I see hundreds HUNDREDS of underage school children riding motorcycles to school, many of them three-up and almost all with no helmet.

Things only get said when tragedies like this occur but as long as there is widespread corruption and as long as the Police keep on doing the fine job they're doing, then nothing will ever change.

Two kids got killed going to school 2 months ago, hit by a songtheiw loaded, nay, overloaded with kids. The Police decided to man the school gates but after a month they stopped. Probably too busy doing important work (collecting money)...

... a teacher of the village Nong Trud (Trang province)rides his MC to the school every morning without wearing a helmet. He shows the pupils how to treat the law with contempt. Questioned why he does so, he answered: " Don' worry, accidents only happen in Bangkok and big cities."

This behaving reflects the attitude of most of the Thai people. And there is no change in sight.

Every morning I see police send their childen to school on back of their police bike in Bangkok. 9 out of 10, the children don't wear helmet. I did not know children are exempted. I will put a camera in my car and will try to take some shots (while changing lane).

[NanLaew]

... Secondly, expecting a family to be responsible through education of its children is a tall order when there is no accountability in government or the law enforcement agencies. ...

Took 21 posts blindly agreeing with this puerile newspaper article before someone hits the nail on the head.

The laws are already in place so what is going wrong?

Total lack of law enforcement. The police here see themselves as the guys entrusted to bring the bad guys to book whilst being blissfully ignorant of the laws they are supposed to be enforcing. They have the laws but absolutely no mechanism, clue or interest in enforcing them; that the police have to be the interface between the law as it is writ and how it is enforced PROACTIVELY. They do things post mortem or after the fact here. In this instance, a regular system of police patrols and traffic checks would net HUNDREDS of underage and otherwise illegal drivers every day.

Anywhere else in the developed world, the police, especially the highway police secure accident scenes FIRST and make secure access for emergency responders. I have seen maybe two dozen road accidents in my time in Thailand and I have yet to see a policeman or patrol vehicle attending. Just the Sawang Boriboon and Por Teck Tung volunteers struggling to handle traffic, gawking public as well as the dead and injured.

The ignorance of law enforcement trickles down to the the public and is manifest in the general disrespect in Thailand for the police and hence the laws that they are supposed to enforce.

Edited January 4, 2011 by NanLaew

[Nisa]

I see this as the most relevant comment, "a case of privileged people thinking that they are above the law."

and this attitude works down the chain, even in my poor village there are those who think they are entitled to more privileges than others.

This is a "pecking order" society.

Anyone who knows "the right people" in this country are Above The Law. The BIB act like they don't see almost any road offenses unless they are at a roadblock to catch persons without a helmet. In countries that the 16 year old children are allowed to drive the girl in question would be facing manslaughter charges at the very least and would be tried as an adult. It will be interesting to see what happens in the end, if anything at all.

Assuming the info out there now is mostly correct ...

Although laws very from state to state .. She would not be tried as an adult in the US as the crime doesn't warrant that kind of change that is rarely used in minors that commit crimes let alone traffic crimes.

She would not be charged with "manslaughter" either but would be charged with "vehicular manslaughter" which is the same charge as "reckless", "reckless" or "dangerous" driving "resulting in an accident that caused death". The level of the charge is the same it is just that different places have different names for the charge. "Vehicular Manslaughter", from my understanding, is more the US term for this crime than most other countries.

And as for manslaughter in and of itself .. it means little in defining the seriousness of the crime. You need to know what level of manslaughter somebody is charged or convicted. While some will produce a lengthy prison sentence other may not produce any jail time at all.

The term man-slaughter is very deceptive.

[orosee]

What a piece of angry, stupid rubbish. If it hadn't been attributed to the Nation, I would have guessed this editorial to be a random post from one of the (too) many threads regarding the crash. The moment someone spews forth utter nonsense like "Full extent of the law" all credibility is lost. No surprise though that this comes from the Thai journaille who think they should run the country, or at least decide how the country is run, because their opinions apprea in print.

The best news through the entire incident is that (a) nobody relevant reads or cares for the opinions written on an outsider web board that assumes the personality of an Iranian revolutionary court, and ( the same pretty much goes for both English language newspapers. There's still a chance that this will be decided in an evenhanded manner with a balance between punishment, compensation and atonement.

It may be that the facts have changed, but how could parents be responsible for a child driving the car of a friend (that was the last status I read)?

I don't think the writer has much knowledge of actual laws here or elsewhere. Not that this would stop anyone from writing.

[slipperx]

Are you assuming that because the young girl did not have a licence that she is automatically guilty, why not wait until the facts are known before joining the hang em high brigade.

Yes guilty because 16 year olds are not allowed by law to drive. QED she is guity. My car was hit by a 15 & 13 year old on a bike. My car was parked although I was in the driving seat and the engine had just been started. They hit the front wing and bumper which proved to be enough to halt their speedy progress and resulted in a broken shoulder for one and a leg for the other, both could quite easily have been killed. I was still guilty according to police - go figure! The insurance paid. Mad!!

[NanLaew]

Has anyone discovered what caused the accident.

A thai visa investigation team, consisting of highly trained chimpanzee's was dispatched not long after the accident occurred, however, they seem to be having problems with their local ISP and are all caught up trying to define terminolgy used by one of the local print media news papers.

I am sure that they will eventually get to the bottom of this & report back to us all through their highly skilled forum posters who is probably presently asleep after bashing away at the keypad all night in a disagreement with another poster regarding a minor spelling issue.

neverdie! You... you monkey you!

[wackysleet]

Are you assuming that because the young girl did not have a licence that she is automatically guilty, why not wait until the facts are known before joining the hang em high brigade.

Yes guilty because 16 year olds are not allowed by law to drive. QED she is guity. My car was hit by a 15 & 13 year old on a bike. My car was parked although I was in the driving seat and the engine had just been started. They hit the front wing and bumper which proved to be enough to halt their speedy progress and resulted in a broken shoulder for one and a leg for the other, both could quite easily have been killed. I was still guilty according to police - go figure! The insurance paid. Mad!!

Well really there is no answer to that kind of thinking.

[shunima]

Interesting numbers, from the thread about holiday accident deaths in Thailand over the New Years week, regarding unlicensed drivers:

At 2,533 checkpoints... about 825,000 vehicles were stopped and 100,587 traffic-law violators were charged - mostly for riding motorcycles without helmets, at 29,736 cases, followed by 28,482 cases of driving without a licence.

They unlicensed drivers must be punished! Throw them in prison ! And the parents too (!!!) as they obviously failed to educate their offspring properly. Keep all of them there forever, the people of Thailand wouldn't mind because if they would get away with it (the unlicensed driving) they must be Hi-So and Hi-So people deserve this kind of treatment! See, it's so easy to make proper law work if the fine policemen do their jobs.

[Nisa]

Are you assuming that because the young girl did not have a licence that she is automatically guilty, why not wait until the facts are known before joining the hang em high brigade.

Yes guilty because 16 year olds are not allowed by law to drive. QED she is guity. My car was hit by a 15 & 13 year old on a bike. My car was parked although I was in the driving seat and the engine had just been started. They hit the front wing and bumper which proved to be enough to halt their speedy progress and resulted in a broken shoulder for one and a leg for the other, both could quite easily have been killed. I was still guilty according to police - go figure! The insurance paid. Mad!!

Sounds like some details are missing to your story as I doubt your insurance company, as general practice, takes responsibility for accidents their clients are not at fault. Also this would indicate you are wrong about unlicensed drivers being automatically guilty unless this is just your desire given your past circumstances. I'd also assume your views on this would change if a family member came to visit you, drove without a Thai license, and was killed in an accident by another driver who ran a red light while your family member did nothing wrong but drive without a valid license.

[fatfather]

The girl did wrong, the parents did wrong....... (.... followed by 28,482 cases of driving without a licence.{-this New Year's statistic-}).... but what do you expect? Driving without a licence is normal.TIT

Very sad facts and no light at the end of the tunnel

Fatfather

[Nisa]

Interesting numbers, from the thread about holiday accident deaths in Thailand over the New Years week, regarding unlicensed drivers:

At 2,533 checkpoints... about 825,000 vehicles were stopped and 100,587 traffic-law violators were charged - mostly for riding motorcycles without helmets, at 29,736 cases, followed by 28,482 cases of driving without a licence.

They unlicensed drivers must be punished! Throw them in prison ! And the parents too (!!!) as they obviously failed to educate their offspring properly. Keep all of them there forever, the people of Thailand wouldn't mind because if they would get away with it (the unlicensed driving) they must be Hi-So and Hi-So people deserve this kind of treatment! See, it's so easy to make proper law work if the fine policemen do their jobs.

The law doesn't call for throwing people in jail for driving without a license and it doesn't in most places in the US either. However, driving under a suspended license that can get you some days in jail.

I really don't see throwing a 60-year old mother into jail because their 40-year old son drove unlicensed ... then again maybe you are assuming all unlicensed drivers are underage and hiso.

It has been said here that the punishment for driving w/o a license if 400 Baht. So, not sure how the policeman doing their job is going to curb hiso drivers without a license since in your mind they will use their influences and connections to call in favors to avoid paying a simple 400 baht fine.

[jfchandler]

And how many of those, particularly in the unlicensed category, were taken off the road by police vs. paying some nominal fine and going merrily on their way???

If some places if someone is caught driving without a license, their vehicle is impounded by police to ensure the same person doesn't continue on driving without the license, same as before.

Not here in Thailand, of course. Maybe the PM's GPS proposal will help about that???

Interesting numbers, from the thread about holiday accident deaths in Thailand over the New Years week, regarding unlicensed drivers:

At 2,533 checkpoints... about 825,000 vehicles were stopped and 100,587 traffic-law violators were charged - mostly for riding motorcycles without helmets, at 29,736 cases, followed by 28,482 cases of driving without a licence.

[MaxYakov]

dominique355 has made the point that seems to have been missed by most. Initial accident reports stated that the girl had just returned from America. It is quite possible therefore that she already has a drivers license albeit for another country. Of course this would not be valid in Thailand because of her age. I do not offer this as an excuse for her actions, just something else to consider amongs all the other factors surrounding this very sad incident.

Grasping at straws here?

At 16, unless she had A LOT of behind-the-wheel time in ANY COUNTRY, she would not have acquired good driving judgment.

This not only applies to juveniles, but to adults as well. I'd rather share the road with a high-time, unlicensed juvenile than a low-time, licensed adult driver which probably has poorer driving judgment than the juvenile.

[shunima]

Interesting numbers, from the thread about holiday accident deaths in Thailand over the New Years week, regarding unlicensed drivers:

At 2,533 checkpoints... about 825,000 vehicles were stopped and 100,587 traffic-law violators were charged - mostly for riding motorcycles without helmets, at 29,736 cases, followed by 28,482 cases of driving without a licence.

They unlicensed drivers must be punished! Throw them in prison ! And the parents too (!!!) as they obviously failed to educate their offspring properly. Keep all of them there forever, the people of Thailand wouldn't mind because if they would get away with it (the unlicensed driving) they must be Hi-So and Hi-So people deserve this kind of treatment! See, it's so easy to make proper law work if the fine policemen do their jobs.

The law doesn't call for throwing people in jail for driving without a license and it doesn't in most places in the US either. However, driving under a suspended license that can get you some days in jail.

I really don't see throwing a 60-year old mother into jail because their 40-year old son drove unlicensed ... then again maybe you are assuming all unlicensed drivers are underage and hiso.

It has been said here that the punishment for driving w/o a license if 400 Baht. So, not sure how the policeman doing their job is going to curb hiso drivers without a license since in your mind they will use their influences and connections to call in favors to avoid paying a simple 400 baht fine.

Sorry Nisa, next time I label the post "Caution, Sarcasm!". You didn't seriously think I meant it the way it was written, didn't you?

[Nisa]

I would think even here the law would call for the police not allowing an unlicensed driver continue on driving. In the places I am familiar, in the US, generally they will allow somebody else to come and drive the vehicle unless the driver was driving under suspension (which is a criminal offense and not traffic). I believe the police here, as in other places, do have the responsibility to stop an unlicensed driver from proceeding on after being ticketed. Just seems like common sense but then again this is Thailand.

And how many of those, particularly in the unlicensed category, were taken off the road by police vs. paying some nominal fine and going merrily on their way???

If some places if someone is caught driving without a license, their vehicle is impounded by police to ensure the same person doesn't continue on driving without the license, same as before.

Not here in Thailand, of course. Maybe the PM's GPS proposal will help about that???

Interesting numbers, from the thread about holiday accident deaths in Thailand over the New Years week, regarding unlicensed drivers:

At 2,533 checkpoints... about 825,000 vehicles were stopped and 100,587 traffic-law violators were charged - mostly for riding motorcycles without helmets, at 29,736 cases, followed by 28,482 cases of driving without a licence.

[mobil]

Clearly a fine is not going to serve any purpose as a punishment. Punishing parents is questionable as a remedy and should only be considered on a case-by-case basis. It may be more effective to make the under-aged driver spend 6 months or so attending the scene of every fatal road accident in Bangkok and make him/her clean up the mess - the parents could help too.

[Nisa]

Interesting numbers, from the thread about holiday accident deaths in Thailand over the New Years week, regarding unlicensed drivers:

At 2,533 checkpoints... about 825,000 vehicles were stopped and 100,587 traffic-law violators were charged - mostly for riding motorcycles without helmets, at 29,736 cases, followed by 28,482 cases of driving without a licence.

They unlicensed drivers must be punished! Throw them in prison ! And the parents too (!!!) as they obviously failed to educate their offspring properly. Keep all of them there forever, the people of Thailand wouldn't mind because if they would get away with it (the unlicensed driving) they must be Hi-So and Hi-So people deserve this kind of treatment! See, it's so easy to make proper law work if the fine policemen do their jobs.

The law doesn't call for throwing people in jail for driving without a license and it doesn't in most places in the US either. However, driving under a suspended license that can get you some days in jail.

I really don't see throwing a 60-year old mother into jail because their 40-year old son drove unlicensed ... then again maybe you are assuming all unlicensed drivers are underage and hiso.

It has been said here that the punishment for driving w/o a license if 400 Baht. So, not sure how the policeman doing their job is going to curb hiso drivers without a license since in your mind they will use their influences and connections to call in favors to avoid paying a simple 400 baht fine.

Sorry Nisa, next time I label the post "Caution, Sarcasm!". You didn't seriously think I meant it the way it was written, didn't you?

Sorry but yes I did based on many of the posts I have read on this topic.

[kropotkin]

Interesting numbers, from the thread about holiday accident deaths in Thailand over the New Years week, regarding unlicensed drivers:

At 2,533 checkpoints... about 825,000 vehicles were stopped and 100,587 traffic-law violators were charged - mostly for riding motorcycles without helmets, at 29,736 cases, followed by 28,482 cases of driving without a licence.

100.00 were charged? As in paying AND getting a receipt?

So miracles do happen?

[wackysleet]

dominique355 has made the point that seems to have been missed by most. Initial accident reports stated that the girl had just returned from America. It is quite possible therefore that she already has a drivers license albeit for another country. Of course this would not be valid in Thailand because of her age. I do not offer this as an excuse for her actions, just something else to consider amongs all the other factors surrounding this very sad incident.

Grasping at straws here?

At 16, unless she had A LOT of behind-the-wheel time in ANY COUNTRY, she would not have acquired good driving judgment.

This not only applies to juveniles, but to adults as well. I'd rather share the road with a high-time, unlicensed juvenile than a low-time, licensed adult driver which probably has poorer driving judgment than the juvenile.

I agree about time spent driving and getting experience but the old saying springs to mind, "experience is of benefit only if you learn by it" I'm sure we have all seen some older drivers who will never be a good driver, they assume they already know it all, and yes there are a lot of good young drivers around even here.

But an interesting point concerning the article in the rag, I use the term loosely, about 16 yr old not being mature enough to drive, well in the U.K. the legal age for a cat/truck licence is 17 yrs with the exception of certain disabled drivers in which case they can obtain a car etc licence at 16 yrs and still have to undergo the same driving test as able bodied drivers.

[troy04]

Good editorial. The parents are guilty, they should face the music.

maybe i missed a bit but i thought it's a fact that a friend lent her the car to drive?

but no doubt rich kids everywhere and specially in TH are spoiled and this article is well said

[jfchandler]

Unfortunately, I think there's a lot of opinions being thrown out here that have no clear basis in fact...

Opinion: the parents should be punished. Yes, but does Thailand have a law in place that provides for parental responsibility in the criminal court system? I haven't heard/seen that it does.

Opinion: the girl is a juvenile and therefore can't really be punished in the criminal system. Lots of countries have laws that allow juveniles to be tried as adults, depending on the circumstances. In a case of 9 fatalities by a 17 year old driver, I'd say there's a fair chance she'd be tried as an adult in the U.S. -- depending on the facts that emerge from the accident investigation. Does Thailand have a law that allows teenagers to be charged as adults in criminal cases?

Opinion: Punish the parents and the girl.. Yes, but what about the owner of the car she was driving? I've seen it reported to be a "friend", but I haven't seen any reference to who was the registered owner of the car. The police surely know by now...but I wonder, why no one's saying. Surely that individual had a more direct causal connection to the girl driving than her parents...unless the investigation proves some facts otherwise.

Opinion: the girl might only have to pay a 400 baht fine for driving without a license. I don't know if that penalty is accurate. But even if it is, she's also supposed to be charged with reckless driving and causing death to others. So she's not just on the hook for driving without a license.

If anyone knows Thailand's legal situation about a) parental responsibility in criminal cases, and b] charging teens as adults in serious cases, it's be good to share that factual info here.

Edited January 4, 2011 by jfchandler

[shunima]

if somebody knows somebody from "The Nation" could you please kindly forward this link to them and ask them to circulate it in the whole editorial office. Please?????

http://sites.google.com/site/michaelkinsley/a-good-editorial

extracts:

An unsigned editorial is a particular type of opinion piece. What is the point of this somewhat odd genre? To express the view of the newspaper, obviously. Except that the newspaper, in all its other pages, prides itself on having no view. So in a way, it makes even less sense for a newspaper to produce an official or semi-official opinion on the issues of the day than for, say, an auto company or a restaurant chain to do so. These businesses at least have no business interest in being thought un-opinionated...

...In short, a good editorial is one that explains and clarifies an issue in the news. It can, in fact it should, have an opinion. But ideally it also should give readers the understanding they need to disagree intelligently...

...The problem should arise from the news, or from some larger public concern. No doubt there are brilliant editorials awakening readers to issues that have been wrongly ignored. But the usual effect of trying to make the readers care about an issue in order to tell them what to think about it is the opposite of awakening...