Legal Cigarette Buying Age In Thailand To Be Raised To 20: Jurin

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Basically, they can't control overseas events, so that was given an exemption ... for a while at least.

Yup. Something of a contradiction when you look at the Interactive Gambling Act. For a decade, they've banned overseas companies (the ones they can't regulate / tax) from accepting Australians - so of course they all accept Australians. And they ban Australian companies (the ones they can regulate / tax) from accepting Australians - so of course they don't accept Australians. Almost impossibly, it's even stupider than Prohibition.

So Australians have no problem with regulating overseas events. They could probably do the race on slight delay and blur out the commercials. Of course, all the tobacco companies subliminal stuff will still come through.

I can't remember what my point was. I think it was Australian legislation is retarded. Which is it. And full of contradictions, like any body of law.

[ginjag]

Basically, they can't control overseas events, so that was given an exemption ... for a while at least.

Yup. Something of a contradiction when you look at the Interactive Gambling Act. For a decade, they've banned overseas companies (the ones they can't regulate / tax) from accepting Australians - so of course they all accept Australians. And they ban Australian companies (the ones they can regulate / tax) from accepting Australians - so of course they don't accept Australians. Almost impossibly, it's even stupider than Prohibition.

So Australians have no problem with regulating overseas events. They could probably do the race on slight delay and blur out the commercials. Of course, all the tobacco companies subliminal stuff will still come through.

I can't remember what my point was. I think it was Australian legislation is retarded. Which is it. And full of contradictions, like any body of law.

[Randee]

All cigarette smoking should be banned worldwide.

Its a drug industry that governments make lots of money from, just as they did from opium at the turn of the century.

Ban The Cancer Sticks, "Thai Government", or Continue With a Very Bad Karma, with Death and Suffering on Your Hands.

Addicts should be sent to government rehabilitation centers.

Facts:

Cigarettes should be banned from society and be illegal parallel to selling illicit narcotics such as heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine.

Tobacco smoking can be dated back to approximated 6000 BC. Today it is ubiquitous throughout the World.

The exponential increase in demand attests its highly addictive nature. Till today, some people rest assured that cigarettes are merely a mental addiction, and the "habit" can simply be tossed in the dust bin whenever they please. The media is culpable for this illusory misconception. Movie stars are seen quotidian puffing carefree on a cigarette. This allures many teenagers into thinking they be be lionized if they imitate their favorite actor/actress. In addition, teenagers are peer-pressured into smoking to maintain or achieve a status within their clique. There are an estimated 4000 chemicals compacted in each cigarette you smoke. Allow me to provide only a fraction of a percentage of them:

A. Carcinogens: a chemical that can cause or aggravate cancer.

Approximate 60 of the chemicals in cigarettes are known to cause cancer.

A1. Benzene: found in gasoline.

A2. Formaldehyde: chemical used to preserve dead bodies.

B. Toxic Metals

B1. Arsenic: Commonly used in rat poison.

B2. Cadmium: Found in batteries.

C. Radioactive Toxic Metals.

C1. Lead 210

C2. Polonium 210

D. Poisons.

D1. Ammonia: Commonly used in cleaning products.

D2. Carbon Monoxide: Present in car exhaust.

D3. Hydrogen Cyanide: used to kill people in gas chambers in WW2 in Germany.

D4. Nicotine: poison used in pesticides and addictive element in cigarettes.

As for second hand smoke, research has shown it contains 250 toxic chemicals, including 50 cancer causing chemicals.

Ostensibly, it is more pernicious than most assume. The makers of these cigarettes have kept the majority of these substances clandestine for a long time. There is no reason cigarettes should be legal anywhere. Greed, corruption, and dishonesty should be the producers motto. The egregious makers should be incarcerated and held culpable for their nefarious acts.

:annoyed::annoyed::annoyed::annoyed:

You are over-analytical and too easily led by all this hype. If you break down the contents of anything consumable you will find ingredients that will make your jaw drop and sound dangerous in theory and on paper.

I've been smoking 33 years since the age of 13. Non-smokers cough more than me and are prone to illnesses more than me. My health is great and I breathe deeply and easily

No need to be paranoid and listen to your over-hyped scare mongering

WOW 46 years old and still have not got the message, I see said the blind man, Yo 600,000 die each year, just on second hand smoke alone, what is it about lung cancer don't you understand?

One favor, it is quite obvious your only going to quit when it quits you, so please don't leave your toxic butts behind for an unknowing baby or wildlife to ingest, become ill or die, also the contaminating of waterways, you see sir, it takes up to 12 years for the toxic cellulose acetate filter, to decompose, leaving dangers behind for the voiceless children, wildlife and waterways.

Thank you for having concerns for others

you non-smokers are paranoid stressed out worry heads stress and anxiety will lead you to an early grave. you need to chill out and smoke something .... stop fretting and worrying - get over it - lighten up .... get a life i bet you're scared to cross the road because of the statistics

Edited January 8, 2011 by Randee

[Randee]

The only thing which will stop people from smoking, or smoking as much is cost. Add on some tax, make them too expensive and people will generally reconsider.

I disagree. We smokers truly enjoy smoking, it is a delicious luxury. Higher costs will just mean that our delicious luxury is more expensive.

Another positive benefit of living in Asia is paying much less for our luxury here.

Smoking a luxury! It's a death sentence for the smoker and the people close to them, make the price 300baht or more a pack and many will stop, just because they can't afford to kill themselves anymore, the poor and the smart, will quit and live. the hooked will continue and die before their time.

END OF STORY

As I said already to another of your doom and gloom replies ....

you non-smokers are paranoid stressed out worry heads stress and anxiety will lead you to an early grave. you need to chill out and smoke something .... stop fretting and worrying - get over it - lighten up .... get a life i bet you're scared to cross the road because of the statistics ......................................

[Randee]

will this actually stop teens buying tabs? i don't think so!

ah let's be controversial ... BAN ALL CIGGYS.. THEY STINK AND I DON'T SEE WHY I SHOULD HAVE TO INHALE YOUR FILTH

Let's be even more controversial. Ban the internal combustion engine. Let BKK breathe fresh air.

Well said again! I say that when car drivers stop polluting air with obnoxious discharge fumes belching out of their rear ends then they can criticize smokers .... And only then.

If all we car users decided to walk or bicycle or ride a buffalo, would you smokers give up your filthy habit? You have got to be joking.

apart from polluting the air with your selfish car driving and a desire to ride buffalos, i wonder what other filthy habits and practices you do? be it in public or private. none? rubbish.....

you hypocrits are soooo boring.

[Randee]

That's scary stuff indeed. After reading it I had to light one up just to calm down.

The next thing he'll be saying is everybody should stop breathing when a car goes past

Don't sit there, inhale it and blow smoke rings, take shorter breaths and avoid as much as one can.

,

When one becomes one, with their body, one knows what to, or not to, put into it, some never get in touch with ones self, and die of, avoidable things, like smoking, to much drinking, unhealthy eating.

Look Jane, look, see spot run, Education, Education, Education.

Up to the person, run blind, throw caution to the wind, die young, think about self and others and the odds are much better of living a longer fuller life, with less regrets and being more a peace with-in.

(Up to the person) just quit leaving your butts behind, that can kill the voiceless, children, wildlife and waterways, then respect for the smoker is elevated and hopefully self.

Many smokers understand the dangers of leaving their poison behind and either carry a travel ashtray or keep their butts to themselves, until they find a proper place to deposit them (Not in storm drains, streets, beach, parks planters toilets) Good choices would be ashtray, dumpsters, dustbin,

garbage cans and the nice thing to do is keep them until one finds the proper place, (Many considerate smokers do)

A damm hard habit to quit, we just ask one to think a little, about others. Thank You

doom, gloom, misery, fretting, worrying, stress and so on and so forth ........... you non-smokers need to lighten up. get over it. your stressing and worrying will be the death of you.

i've got a mental picture of you spending your days walking around staring at the floor and cursing out loud at tiny little cigarette butts

maybe could carry a little sweeping broom with you on your travels if it's so stressful for you?

Edited January 8, 2011 by Randee

[koto]

That's scary stuff indeed. After reading it I had to light one up just to calm down.

The next thing he'll be saying is everybody should stop breathing when a car goes past

Don't sit there, inhale it and blow smoke rings, take shorter breaths and avoid as much as one can.

,

When one becomes one, with their body, one knows what to, or not to, put into it, some never get in touch with ones self, and die of, avoidable things, like smoking, to much drinking, unhealthy eating.

Look Jane, look, see spot run, Education, Education, Education.

Up to the person, run blind, throw caution to the wind, die young, think about self and others and the odds are much better of living a longer fuller life, with less regrets and being more a peace with-in.

(Up to the person) just quit leaving your butts behind, that can kill the voiceless, children, wildlife and waterways, then respect for the smoker is elevated and hopefully self.

Many smokers understand the dangers of leaving their poison behind and either carry a travel ashtray or keep their butts to themselves, until they find a proper place to deposit them (Not in storm drains, streets, beach, parks planters toilets) Good choices would be ashtray, dumpsters, dustbin,

garbage cans and the nice thing to do is keep them until one finds the proper place, (Many considerate smokers do)

A damm hard habit to quit, we just ask one to think a little, about others. Thank You

doom, gloom, misery, fretting, worrying, stress and so on and so forth ........... you non-smokers need to lighten up. get over it. your stressing and worrying will be the death of you.

i've got a mental picture of you spending your days walking around staring at the floor and cursing out loud at tiny little cigarette butts

maybe could carry a little sweeping broom with you on your travels if it's so stressful for you?

I do! And I pick them up after uncaring inconsiderate smokers like you! Only thinking about what pleases them and nothing about others, I pick up after people like you daily and many start to understand and start to keep their butts to themselves, some care about others, some think.

If you ever can see through the smoke, join me, and I'll see spot run you on the problems, people like you, are making for many.

If you keep your butts to yourself forget it, if you don't, you need to learn about the problem, get the smoke out of your eyes, wake-up and smell the mocha.

They are tiny, packed with poison, and the size, that will fit into babies, fish, seabirds turtles, land wildlife's small mouths, making them ill or killing them.

We are all in this neighborhood together (WAKE-UP) Having respect for self and others, plus being responsible for all of ones actions, is a good starter, life is not just about me, me, me, just try to consider the voiceless young man, and life will be better for you and others around you.

Have a thinking day.

374.bmp

[Randee]

[

I do! And I pick them up after uncaring inconsiderate smokers like you! Only thinking about what pleases them and nothing about others, I pick up after people like you daily and many start to understand and start to keep their butts to themselves, some care about others, some think.

If you ever can see through the smoke, join me, and I'll see spot run you on the problems, people like you, are making for many.

If you keep your butts to yourself forget it, if you don't, you need to learn about the problem, get the smoke out of your eyes, wake-up and smell the mocha.

They are tiny, packed with poison, and the size, that will fit into babies, fish, seabirds turtles, land wildlife's small mouths, making them ill or killing them.

We are all in this neighborhood together (WAKE-UP) Having respect for self and others, plus being responsible for all of ones actions, is a good starter, life is not just about me, me, me, just try to consider the voiceless young man, and life will be better for you and others around you.

Have a thinking day.

you dont even know me. you have no idea what i do. you monkey.

[Wallaby]

I don't smoke and I don't care who smokes, it's their business. I also don't have a problem if someone walks into a bar and sits beside me and lights up. I breathe in all sorts of chemicals from all different things every time I take a breaht, a bit of second hand smoke is not going to worry me in the slightest. There are far worse things to worry about.

I can't stand the people that, when walking past a smoker, pretend to cough and splutter. Morons.

Get a life and move on.

[koto]

[

I do! And I pick them up after uncaring inconsiderate smokers like you! Only thinking about what pleases them and nothing about others, I pick up after people like you daily and many start to understand and start to keep their butts to themselves, some care about others, some think.

If you ever can see through the smoke, join me, and I'll see spot run you on the problems, people like you, are making for many.

If you keep your butts to yourself forget it, if you don't, you need to learn about the problem, get the smoke out of your eyes, wake-up and smell the mocha.

They are tiny, packed with poison, and the size, that will fit into babies, fish, seabirds turtles, land wildlife's small mouths, making them ill or killing them.

We are all in this neighborhood together (WAKE-UP) Having respect for self and others, plus being responsible for all of ones actions, is a good starter, life is not just about me, me, me, just try to consider the voiceless young man, and life will be better for you and others around you.

Have a thinking day.

you dont even know me. you have no idea what i do. you monkey.

True story, I can only go by what you say, and I say if you keep your butts to yourself, I have nothing to say about you, if you don't, then I do, can you hear me now, I have no problem with smokers, if I'm not near them and they don't flick their toxic butts where the voiceless might ingest them.

[Randee]

[

I do! And I pick them up after uncaring inconsiderate smokers like you! Only thinking about what pleases them and nothing about others, I pick up after people like you daily and many start to understand and start to keep their butts to themselves, some care about others, some think.

If you ever can see through the smoke, join me, and I'll see spot run you on the problems, people like you, are making for many.

If you keep your butts to yourself forget it, if you don't, you need to learn about the problem, get the smoke out of your eyes, wake-up and smell the mocha.

They are tiny, packed with poison, and the size, that will fit into babies, fish, seabirds turtles, land wildlife's small mouths, making them ill or killing them.

We are all in this neighborhood together (WAKE-UP) Having respect for self and others, plus being responsible for all of ones actions, is a good starter, life is not just about me, me, me, just try to consider the voiceless young man, and life will be better for you and others around you.

Have a thinking day.

you dont even know me. you have no idea what i do. you monkey.

True story, I can only go by what you say, and I say if you keep your butts to yourself, I have nothing to say about you, if you don't, then I do, can you hear me now, I have no problem with smokers, if I'm not near them and they don't flick their toxic butts where the voiceless might ingest them.

i'm glad you admit my comment is true. you are very honest

but do you honestly believe that any living creature would desire to ingest a used cigarette butt? do you?

even if a baby were to put one in it's mouth (bad parents for not keeping an eye on it) the baby would soon spit it out and pull a sour face expression.

and no animal would want to eat it.

but let's say some thing had a freaky desire to ingest one, it actually wanted that awful tasting thing in it's mouth. it enjoyed the taste of a used cigarette but so much that it let it remain in it's mouth and actually swallowed it (how crazy does that sound!!) - do you think any harm would come to it? of course no harm would come to it. health and safety laws prevail.

i think you are an extremist who derives pleasure from being anti-ism. a complainer who lives in a fantasy world. imaginary scenarios go through your mind so often that you actually end up believing them

if you think i'm wrong put a used cigarette butt in your mouth then tell me an animal that would want to swallow it. then tell me of a time you know of when it has ever happened.

i think you live in an imaginary world

Edited January 8, 2011 by Randee

[koto]

[

I do! And I pick them up after uncaring inconsiderate smokers like you! Only thinking about what pleases them and nothing about others, I pick up after people like you daily and many start to understand and start to keep their butts to themselves, some care about others, some think.

If you ever can see through the smoke, join me, and I'll see spot run you on the problems, people like you, are making for many.

If you keep your butts to yourself forget it, if you don't, you need to learn about the problem, get the smoke out of your eyes, wake-up and smell the mocha.

They are tiny, packed with poison, and the size, that will fit into babies, fish, seabirds turtles, land wildlife's small mouths, making them ill or killing them.

We are all in this neighborhood together (WAKE-UP) Having respect for self and others, plus being responsible for all of ones actions, is a good starter, life is not just about me, me, me, just try to consider the voiceless young man, and life will be better for you and others around you.

Have a thinking day.

you dont even know me. you have no idea what i do. you monkey.

True story, I can only go by what you say, and I say if you keep your butts to yourself, I have nothing to say about you, if you don't, then I do, can you hear me now, I have no problem with smokers, if I'm not near them and they don't flick their toxic butts where the voiceless might ingest them.

i'm glad you admit my comment is true. you are very honest

but do you honestly believe that any living creature would desire to ingest a used cigarette butt? do you?

even if a baby were to put one in it's mouth (bad parents for not keeping an eye on it) the baby would soon spit it out and pull a sour face expression.

and no animal would want to eat it.

but let's say some thing had a freaky desire to ingest one, it actually wanted that awful tasting thing in it's mouth. it enjoyed the taste of a used cigarette but so much that it let it remain in it's mouth and actually swallowed it (how crazy does that sound!!) - do you think any harm would come to it? of course no harm would come to it. health and safety laws prevail.

i think you are an extremist who derives pleasure from being anti-ism. a complainer who lives in a fantasy world. imaginary scenarios go through your mind so often that you actually end up believing them

if you think i'm wrong put a used cigarette butt in your mouth then tell me an animal that would want to swallow it. then tell me of a time you know of when it has ever happened.

i think you live in an imaginary world

When you were just a baby, 40+ years ago, I helped a young mother with her baby girl chocking on a cigarette filter, she almost died, that's when I stopped leaving my butts behind, because only then did I realize what I was doing, I have also pulled dead turtles out of the ocean in Hawaii with cancerous soars on them and found them to be full of toxic butts, I have also helped 3 mothers on Jomtien Beach with their chocking babies and another with a bottle cap, most parents do their best to prevent these things, but why take the chance by leaving these things behind, unknowing children and young animals do ingest these things including disposable lighters.

I'm just here to point these things out to people that do not realize what they are doing, such as I, many years ago, I quit smoking 7 years ago, but I quit flicking my butts 40+ years ago, I'm just asking smokers to think twice about leaving their butts and disposable lighters behind, just to keep it safer for the unknowing, I don't think that, is asking to much, for life's sake.

[Thai at Heart]

http://www.epilogicconsulting.com/cascadiac/humcan.html

Not wanting to defend smoking, but, .....

“Air pollution contributes to lung disease, including respiratory tract infections, asthma, and lung cancer.

Lung disease claims close to 335,000 lives in America every year and is the third-leading cause of death in the United States. Over the last decade, the death rate for lung disease has risen faster than that of any of the top five causes of death.”

“Growing up close to a roadway that carries more than 20,000 vehicles per day increases the risk of certain child cancers by 600% according to one U.S. study.”

“As many as ONE FIFTH of all urban lung cancer deaths are caused by miniscule particles called particulate matter. Most originate from internal combustion engines. Some of the strongest carcinogens known to man are found in vehicle exhaust.”

And yet the rate of smoking in the US has been progressively falling for the last 40 years, and of course, if cigarettes were illegal, which industry would the world have to pick on next to stop us all inhaling these dastardly fumes? But then of course, could it afford to pay the damages and how many American workers would be put out of a job if the car industry became as vilified as the tobacco industry?

[Randee]

you dont even know me. you have no idea what i do. you monkey.

True story, I can only go by what you say, and I say if you keep your butts to yourself, I have nothing to say about you, if you don't, then I do, can you hear me now, I have no problem with smokers, if I'm not near them and they don't flick their toxic butts where the voiceless might ingest them.

i'm glad you admit my comment is true. you are very honest

but do you honestly believe that any living creature would desire to ingest a used cigarette butt? do you?

even if a baby were to put one in it's mouth (bad parents for not keeping an eye on it) the baby would soon spit it out and pull a sour face expression.

and no animal would want to eat it.

but let's say some thing had a freaky desire to ingest one, it actually wanted that awful tasting thing in it's mouth. it enjoyed the taste of a used cigarette but so much that it let it remain in it's mouth and actually swallowed it (how crazy does that sound!!) - do you think any harm would come to it? of course no harm would come to it. health and safety laws prevail.

i think you are an extremist who derives pleasure from being anti-ism. a complainer who lives in a fantasy world. imaginary scenarios go through your mind so often that you actually end up believing them

if you think i'm wrong put a used cigarette butt in your mouth then tell me an animal that would want to swallow it. then tell me of a time you know of when it has ever happened.

i think you live in an imaginary world

When you were just a baby, 40+ years ago, I helped a young mother with her baby girl chocking on a cigarette filter, she almost died, that's when I stopped leaving my butts behind, because only then did I realize what I was doing, I have also pulled dead turtles out of the ocean in Hawaii with cancerous soars on them and found them to be full of toxic butts, I have also helped 3 mothers on Jomtien Beach with their chocking babies and another with a bottle cap, most parents do their best to prevent these things, but why take the chance by leaving these things behind, unknowing children and young animals do ingest these things including disposable lighters.

I'm just here to point these things out to people that do not realize what they are doing, such as I, many years ago, I quit smoking 7 years ago, but I quit flicking my butts 40+ years ago, I'm just asking smokers to think twice about leaving their butts and disposable lighters behind, just to keep it safer for the unknowing, I don't think that, is asking to much, for life's sake.

if you think for one minute i believe this load of bs fabrication then you are confirming my suspicions you are crazy.

go waste someone elses time with your imaginary bull excrement and tall stories.

what a load of sh*t

[newermonkey]

All cigarette smoking should be banned worldwide.

Its a drug industry that governments make lots of money from, just as they did from opium at the turn of the century.

Ban The Cancer Sticks, "Thai Government", or Continue With a Very Bad Karma, with Death and Suffering on Your Hands.

Addicts should be sent to government rehabilitation centers.

Facts:

Cigarettes should be banned from society and be illegal parallel to selling illicit narcotics such as heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine.

Tobacco smoking can be dated back to approximated 6000 BC. Today it is ubiquitous throughout the World.

The exponential increase in demand attests its highly addictive nature. Till today, some people rest assured that cigarettes are merely a mental addiction, and the "habit" can simply be tossed in the dust bin whenever they please. The media is culpable for this illusory misconception. Movie stars are seen quotidian puffing carefree on a cigarette. This allures many teenagers into thinking they be be lionized if they imitate their favorite actor/actress. In addition, teenagers are peer-pressured into smoking to maintain or achieve a status within their clique. There are an estimated 4000 chemicals compacted in each cigarette you smoke. Allow me to provide only a fraction of a percentage of them:

A. Carcinogens: a chemical that can cause or aggravate cancer.

Approximate 60 of the chemicals in cigarettes are known to cause cancer.

A1. Benzene: found in gasoline.

A2. Formaldehyde: chemical used to preserve dead bodies.

B. Toxic Metals

B1. Arsenic: Commonly used in rat poison.

B2. Cadmium: Found in batteries.

C. Radioactive Toxic Metals.

C1. Lead 210

C2. Polonium 210

D. Poisons.

D1. Ammonia: Commonly used in cleaning products.

D2. Carbon Monoxide: Present in car exhaust.

D3. Hydrogen Cyanide: used to kill people in gas chambers in WW2 in Germany.

D4. Nicotine: poison used in pesticides and addictive element in cigarettes.

As for second hand smoke, research has shown it contains 250 toxic chemicals, including 50 cancer causing chemicals.

Ostensibly, it is more pernicious than most assume. The makers of these cigarettes have kept the majority of these substances clandestine for a long time. There is no reason cigarettes should be legal anywhere. Greed, corruption, and dishonesty should be the producers motto. The egregious makers should be incarcerated and held culpable for their nefarious acts.

:annoyed::annoyed::annoyed::annoyed:

I bet you think that Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" is a documentary, too.

"Well, it was in the newspaper, so it must be true..."

So of course, even if you bother to read this you won't believe it, since it won't fit in with your preconceived belief structure.

Zealots are so predictable...

Ok I read the article Oh wow smoking "is" ok then. I will encourage my teenage son to take up the habit, and we anti smokers have it all wrong silly me.

[Ulysses G.]

So of course, even if you bother to read this you won't believe it, since it won't fit in with your preconceived belief structure.

Zealots are so predictable...

Yes they are, but that "report" could have been written by R.J. Reynolds himself. Excuse me if I do not buy it.

[nisakiman]

So of course, even if you bother to read this you won't believe it, since it won't fit in with your preconceived belief structure.

Zealots are so predictable...

Yes they are, but that "report" could have been written by R.J. Reynolds himself. Excuse me if I do not buy it.

Robert A. Levy is a senior fellow in constitutional studies at the Cato Institute and an adjunct professor at Georgetown University Law Center where he teaches "Statistics for Lawyers." Rosalind B. Marimont is a mathematician and scientist now retired after a 37-year career with the National Institute of Standards and Technology (formerly the Bureau of Standards) and the National Institute of Health.

No, not R.J Reynolds I'm afraid.

In fact, try as I may, I fail to find any reason (funding or otherwise) why the authors might support the tobacco industry.

They seem to be bona fide acedemics with a distaste for dodgy science and statistics, and a distain for peddlers of grossly exaggerated risk factors.

[TAWP]

Sadly we live in a world were exposing lies means one is supposedly supporting the ill that the lies was concerning.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

Non-smokers cough more than me

<snip>

That's worrying:

I just recieved 4 email notifications from you. All exactly the same. Why are you a spammer ? Don't spam.

<snip>

I haven't sent you anything.

If you don't know how this forum works, post your question in the help forum.

[nisakiman]

Sadly we live in a world were exposing lies means one is supposedly supporting the ill that the lies was concerning.

Never a truer word etc.

It seems to be becoming more prevalent these days, the "if you're not with me, then you must be against me", and "the science is settled, so there is no area for debate" attitude.

The zealots are in the ascendency in many areas of life alas.....

[Smee]

Raising taxes will not work, and never has worked, if the intention is to curb smoking. All it does is to drive comsumers to buy illicit (tax unpaid/smuggled/counterfeit) tobacco products (cf Malaysia, where smuggled cigarette consumption has rised by 150% over the last few years, according to government reports in the Malysian press, and now totalling over 35% of total cigarette sales in teh country.

Another point that is consistently overlooked is that In Thailand, only 50% of tobacco products consumed are taxed or even regulated in any way. The majority of Thai smokers reside in the provinces and smoke RYO (roll your own) products - usually untreated tobacco leaf wrapped in a variety of paper products. So the regulations here - ALL of them, including the display ban - affect at most 50% of the smoking population, and simply serve to drive more consumers to the tax-unpaid market.

Within the last 12 months, independent brands, Texas 5 foremost among them, have captured 4% of the domestic market, according to a local source in then tobacco industry. Mainstream players in the market claim that brands such as these are often under-declared for taxation purposes, and it is clear that many cases are being smuggled in across Thailand’s porous borders. However the product is arriving, it is gaining market share at a phenomenal rate.

I could go on at leangth regarding this issue (I am a non-smoker, by the way), but I believe the following news item, although not about Thailand. makes the point clearly enough that rasiing taxes simply does not work. Replace the words 'Bulgaria' and 'Romania" with 'Thailand' and 'Roma' with 'smugglers and cross border traders' to get the point. And this is only one of many reported and verifiable instances demonstrating that raising taxes is counter-productive.

And don't get me started on graphic health warnings, display bans and grey packaging... they all serve to push business to criminal syndicates at the expense of governments and legitimate trade mark owners - and add to the health risks of smokers who opt for cheaper, unregulated illicit (often counterfeit) tobacco products...

Cigarette tax hike backfires in Balkan countries

Cash-strapped Bulgaria and Romania hoped taxing cigarettes would be an easy way to raise money but the hikes are driving smokers to a growing black market instead.

Criminal gangs and impoverished Roma communities near borders with countries where prices are lower -- Serbia, FYR Macedonia, Moldova and Ukraine -- have taken to smuggling which has wiped out gains from higher excise duties.

Bulgaria increased taxes by nearly half this year and stepped up customs controls and police checks at shops and markets. Customs office data, however, shows tax revenues from cigarette sales so far in 2010 have fallen by nearly a third.

"The government created something unique. We actually now have a whole industry that provides for a big group of people," said Tihomir Bezlov of anti-corruption think-tank Center for the Study of Democracy.

Bulgaria and Romania, the two poorest countries in the European Union, are struggling to recover from deep recessions and their deficit-stricken governments have a powerful incentive to let their populations keep puffing for the immediate future.

Bulgaria reversed a national ban on smoking in all cafes and restaurants in June, which analysts said was due to pressure from cigarette producers, importers and distributors and the need for tobacco sales as public revenue falls.

Only Kyustendil, a town of 70,000, retained the ban from July 1 and the discontent is palpable, with bartenders and club owners concerned about making ends meet and partygoers frustrated. Few believe the ban will survive the winter.

"This is a complete nonsense, given that 90 percent of the people smoke," said Kyril Mirchev, 22, grumpy because he cannot smoke while playing billiards. Dancing too just isn't the same without a cigarette, so discos are deserted.

Excise duties on cigarettes are an important source of income and accounted for some 10 percent of all Bulgaria's revenues last year, or 1.77 billion levs ($1.15 billion).

It is the most addicted European Union member along with Greece, with some 40 percent of the population smokers, a recent Eurobarometer survey showed. Nearly a third of neighbor Romania's 22 million population smoke.

"The steep excise hike shocked consumers and increased the demand for cheap cigarettes. We see brands we have never seen before," said Ivan Bilarev, managing director of state-controlled Bulgartabak, with a 38 percent market share.

Cigarette prices in Bulgaria and Romania, at 2.00-2.50 euros ($2.50-$3.20) a pack, are significantly lower than in many other EU nations but still painful for consumers given lower incomes.

A pack on the black market, however, is 1.00-1.75 euros.

[nisakiman]

Yes, the 'unintended consequences' syndrome.

It's been shown many times in many countries that higher levels of taxation result in lower revenues for the exchequer, but the politicians still don't get it.

It's like the ban on smoking in public places, the (publicised) theory being that it will protect people, especially children, from second-hand smoke. However, as a result of the ban, many people who would go out to a pub/bar for a drink and a smoke before the ban now buy their beers or whatever to take home so they can smoke( around the kids) while they have a drink. Good move, eh? Not that I buy into all that baseless propoganda about second-hand smoke, but it just shows how little thought goes into these laws that politicians are so fond of spraying around. A less draconian approach would have been of greater benefit to everyone, on both sides of the argument. That, however, is not the zealot's way...

[Ulysses G.]

Sadly we live in a world were exposing lies means one is supposedly supporting the ill that the lies was concerning.

"Lies" according to who?

A Critical Assessment of "Lies, Damned Lies, & 400,000 Smoking-Related Deaths" by Robert Levy and Rosalind Marimont Published in Regulation,* Fall 1998By Elizabeth M. Whelan, Sc.D., M.P.H., Alicia M. Lukachko, M.P.H.

In the Fall 1998 issue of Regulation ("The Cato Review of Business and Government"), the Cato Institute published an article by Robert Levy and Rosalind Marimont titled "Lies, Damned Lies, & 400,000 Smoking-Related Deaths." In their article, Levy and Marimont contend that the U.S. government's estimate of approximately 400,000 annual premature deaths due to cigarette smoking is scientifically unsound and substantially inflated. The authors assert that "the war on smoking...has grown into a monster of deceit and greed, eroding the credibility of government and subverting the rule of law."

In this report, scientists at the American Council on Science and Health refute Levy and Marimont's key arguments (presented below) as unscientific and inflammatory. ACSH's critique concludes that the estimate of 400,000 annual deaths due to cigarette smoking is indeed reliable and may even be an underestimate.

http://www.acsh.org/publications/pubID.498/pub_detail.asp

[TAWP]

Sadly we live in a world were exposing lies means one is supposedly supporting the ill that the lies was concerning.

"Lies" according to who?

So you say that lies such as 'most users of Hasch will suffer from psychological melddowns' or 'Most smokers die from cancer' or 'Weed is a gateway drug' or...is something that is infact true?

[nisakiman]

Sadly we live in a world were exposing lies means one is supposedly supporting the ill that the lies was concerning.

"Lies" according to who?

A Critical Assessment of "Lies, Damned Lies, & 400,000 Smoking-Related Deaths" by Robert Levy and Rosalind Marimont Published in Regulation,* Fall 1998By Elizabeth M. Whelan, Sc.D., M.P.H., Alicia M. Lukachko, M.P.H.

In the Fall 1998 issue of Regulation ("The Cato Review of Business and Government"), the Cato Institute published an article by Robert Levy and Rosalind Marimont titled "Lies, Damned Lies, & 400,000 Smoking-Related Deaths." In their article, Levy and Marimont contend that the U.S. government's estimate of approximately 400,000 annual premature deaths due to cigarette smoking is scientifically unsound and substantially inflated. The authors assert that "the war on smoking...has grown into a monster of deceit and greed, eroding the credibility of government and subverting the rule of law."

In this report, scientists at the American Council on Science and Health refute Levy and Marimont's key arguments (presented below) as unscientific and inflammatory. ACSH's critique concludes that the estimate of 400,000 annual deaths due to cigarette smoking is indeed reliable and may even be an underestimate.

http://www.acsh.org/.../pub_detail.asp

It's like the global warming debate, isn't it!

Really you can come to any conclusion you want with a given set of statistics. It just depends what agenda the organisation is running to and who is funding them.

In debates like this, my tendency is to give credibility in inverse proportion to the degree of "We're right and you're wrong and there's no argument" and how loud it's broadcast.

The anti-smoking lobby shout very loudly and want to make everyone to do what they say. Freedom of choice doesn't enter into it. Disagreement with their statistical conclusions is immediately shouted down and discredited, usually purely on the basis of "Our figures are right. There is no argument".

This is the mark of the zealot, and when zealotry comes into it, truth goes out the window.

Just like the AGW thing. - "Let's not let fact get in the way of the Grand Projet; we are on a mission and we must succeed. If the data doesn't say what we want, play with it until it does..."

[Ulysses G.]

Sadly we live in a world were exposing lies means one is supposedly supporting the ill that the lies was concerning.

"Lies" according to who?

So you say that lies such as 'most users of Hasch will suffer from psychological melddowns' or 'Most smokers die from cancer' or 'Weed is a gateway drug' or...is something that is infact true?

Was any of that gibberish in the scientific report that I just posted a link to? Tossing out a few Red Herrings does not change the little detail that second hand smoke has been proved to be unhealthy for human beings.

By the way, ignoring scientific facts just because you don't like them is the mark of a true "zealot" Mr. nisakiman.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Tossing out a few Red Herrings does not change the little detail that second hand smoke has been proved to be unhealthy for human beings.

By the way, ignoring scientific facts just because you don't like them is the mark of a true "zealot" Mr. nisakiman.

As a smoker who considers my habit disgusting, I think the smokers in this thread are being a bit unreasonable.

In regards to UlyssesG's first point, think about second-hand smoke for children of parents who smoke. Poor things. Also, workers who are subjected to second-hand smoke even though they don't smoke, hate the smell (most of us have forgotten how vile it is) and might have respiratory problems they don't even know about yet.

The studies which prove 2nd-hand smoke is detrimental to health are irrefutable. The sheer logic shouldn't even require a study. Unless you think your lungs are a magical filter of all the poisons, and the smoke you exhale is purely clean vapour?

Of course, that does still leave the putrid smell. I just paid B 70,000 to clean my apartment of the smell. The owner was unaware I was smoking, and I assure you, no one could be that talented an actor at expressing repulsion upon discovering something they were unaware of.

In regards to UlyssesG's second point, he's actually wrong. Ignoring logic, facts, evidence doesn't make one a zealot imo. It merely means one is dangerously ensconced in Denial.