What Constitutes Working In 'Thailand?'

[venturalaw]

I think the key to all this is who you are working for. If working for a Thai company or a Thai person(s) or doing business with any Thai entity then the law would be enforced.

I find it extremely unlikely that any work done in Thailand from the privacy of your own home for example a UK company would be punished. In these circumstances, the authorities would only be interested if the work was a front for something else, other work with a direct link to Thailand.

Employed and paid by a UK company, performing work that has nothing to do with Thailand, whilst in Thailand say on an O visa, would not see enforcement of the WP rules IMO. Unless you've made some enemies of course.

You are saying that the person might not likely be caught, and I agree. However, is it against the law? I do think so.

It's not the UK company that gets punished, but the person working here without a work permit. It does not matter who your employer is, if you work here, you need a work permit.

So much for the law. Actually, I am not sure that this situation would be any different in Europe. Thai citizens on a Visitor Visa are not allowed to work, period. I don't think the law says they are allowed to work for a Thai company while in Europe.

Really? You mean that a person while on holiday in Europe, in response to an e-mail, gives instructions online to his office back home, say in Thailand, or in the States, or wherever, would be violating the law? Technically he/she would be in violation of the law if this occurred in Thailand.

[tombkk]

I think the key to all this is who you are working for. If working for a Thai company or a Thai person(s) or doing business with any Thai entity then the law would be enforced.

I find it extremely unlikely that any work done in Thailand from the privacy of your own home for example a UK company would be punished. In these circumstances, the authorities would only be interested if the work was a front for something else, other work with a direct link to Thailand.

Employed and paid by a UK company, performing work that has nothing to do with Thailand, whilst in Thailand say on an O visa, would not see enforcement of the WP rules IMO. Unless you've made some enemies of course.

You are saying that the person might not likely be caught, and I agree. However, is it against the law? I do think so.

It's not the UK company that gets punished, but the person working here without a work permit. It does not matter who your employer is, if you work here, you need a work permit.

So much for the law. Actually, I am not sure that this situation would be any different in Europe. Thai citizens on a Visitor Visa are not allowed to work, period. I don't think the law says they are allowed to work for a Thai company while in Europe.

Really? You mean that a person while on holiday in Europe, in response to an e-mail, gives instructions online to his office back home, say in Thailand, or in the States, or wherever, would be violating the law? Technically he/she would be in violation of the law if this occurred in Thailand.

No, I am not saying that. I would have to look up the definition of what constitutes work in the EU, but I am pretty sure that answering emails is not included. In fact, for most countries I visit, the visa or visa excemption is good for tourist/business purposes, and I believe that even includes the US (CMIIW).

Many Western people come to Thailand with a non-immigrant visa and believe they are allowed to work. They are not. Very much like Thai people come to the EU on a visitor visa and violate their visa by taking up work, for example by waitering in Thai restaurants.

Nobody cares about the tourist answerig his work email, neither in Thailand nor in Europe. However, people having an income while living permanently (or semi-permanently) in a country (any country) are working there, for all intents and purposes. Wouldn't you agree?

The only difference is that Thailand does not make a difference whether you earn an income or not. I can imagine that this is because it is quite easy to hide the income by being paid into an offshore account. It is quite understandable that the Thai government willnot tolerate this.

[venturalaw]

The example I provided regarding a business man/woman on holiday in Thailand answering an e-mail and providing instructions to staff overseas without a work permit IS illegal in Thailand. The wording of the law is intentionally over-broad so that there is no chance of one avoiding the law based on a technicality.

[jazzbo]

As per my #144 if you are 'genuinely interested' in whether any given activity constitutes 'work' under Thai law, go into the local Labour Ministry Office or IMM Office and see what they say ... I did.

One reason you might not care to do that is that even if they say that yes that would constitute work and you cannot do that activity without a WP, you intend to do it regardless.

[Forkinhades]

@jezzbo so do you have a definitive list then!

[jazzbo]

Kuhn FIH -- I do not have a definitive list because there is no definitive list -- It is what your local Min of Labour jurisdiction office says it is and if you do not agree then you are free to challenge said opinion.

[Forkinhades]

what did your local office say then? as regards to maintaining the place you abode in

Edited January 27, 2011 by Forkinhades

[Soutpeel]

I think the key to all this is who you are working for. If working for a Thai company or a Thai person(s) or doing business with any Thai entity then the law would be enforced.

I find it extremely unlikely that any work done in Thailand from the privacy of your own home for example a UK company would be punished. In these circumstances, the authorities would only be interested if the work was a front for something else, other work with a direct link to Thailand.

Employed and paid by a UK company, performing work that has nothing to do with Thailand, whilst in Thailand say on an O visa, would not see enforcement of the WP rules IMO. Unless you've made some enemies of course.

You are making interpretations of the law and enforcement were there are actually none to make under the current law.

The law does not differentiate working for Non Thai companies, Thai companies, links with Thailand etc......All it basically says is you need a work permit for working whether paid or unpaid...They key is what the specific official/judge etc decides is the definition of "work" in a particular circumstance.

So in all 3 examples given, these could be viewed as work in Thailand by a specific official if it took his / her fancy.

Even getting an interpretation form a local labour office is problematic, as it is their intrpretation only and may be viewed differently by another office or offcial, of course you would be on stronger ground if a specific office would give you the interpretation in writing, but not going to happen me thinks..

[jazzbo]

K. FIH -- They really didn't say anything .. In a slack-time general Thai-language conversation with the locals and some visiting regional-type persons, they asked what I did while in Thailand. I told them. They said 'Oh ... do you have a job?' I said 'How could I have a job? I'm on a retirement extension.' This is all for a non-paying situation.

However as Kuhn SP implies any opinion is only really good for that specific officer at that specific moment... the only written definition of work of which I am familiar:

http://eng.mol.go.th/doe_service01.html

Work ” means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits. .. which leaves a whole lot of discretionary or interpretative wiggle room.

[smiling mantis]

My apologies if this matter has been raised earlier, but does moderating this forum constitute working?

For that matter, does posting in this forum constitute working?

Everybody was sure to submit their work permit when registering for TV, right?

[kropotkin]

The example I provided regarding a business man/woman on holiday in Thailand answering an e-mail and providing instructions to staff overseas without a work permit IS illegal in Thailand. The wording of the law is intentionally over-broad so that there is no chance of one avoiding the law based on a technicality.

if the law were clear, no tea money could be extorted in any case.

this is thailand.

do not search for complicated explanations.

[jazzbo]

My personal suggestion to anyone who is doing or contemplating online activities where customers, clients, and/or compensation are outside of Thailand is to spend enough time ex-Thailand so that with a reasonably straight face you can claim that none of your actual 'work' is done while you are within the Kingdom...

And that might also provide an out to any Thai official who is charged with investigating your case but really would prefer not to bother.

[wolf5370]

The interesting part is that the definition of "work" is not even better in Thai.... And honestly, have a look in any English / American dictionary, you'll find no help!

exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something

I guess it is a referenece to Gaspard-Gustave Coriolis' definition of "work" (1826) - "Work is any action expending energy" - "Mechanical work is the amount of energy transferred by a force acting through a distance" - built from Newtonian physics.

By definition - even those with work permits are "working" illegally without work permits, as their work permits are only relevent to their employer, ad they expend energy in many other ways outside of work for that employer every day. It's simply a BS law that makes no sense.

It also seems to not particularly benefit Thailand either.

Any thinking person can see that a person "working" here at a keyboard or on a phone - dealing specifically with offshore work, is not taking the job of a Thai (as they can also get a keyboard or phone) - and by allowing them to get a WP, they would then be obliged to pay tax - and also allows them to do this beneficial work (in the form of taxes) then they are not going out and getting "real" jobs that a Thai could actually be doing. There seems absolutely no reason to continue this stupidity, what benefit to the law makers? The have less control, less taxes, miss out on WP fees, miss out on foreign currency coming in, with it being hidden there are few Thai copiers to make a benefit from it, and higher costs investigating such "crimes". Benefits to the odd cop's pocket (lets face it most never get caught - so not the best little earner anyway) is of little concern to the big guys running the country. There is also the possibility, Jimmy Jones turns his little one man show into an international business and starts a real company with paid Thai employees and possibly even shareholders etc.

[kropotkin]

Don't get caught or framed.

If they catch you doing something illegal, pay - no one to blame but yourself.

If they frame you doing nothing illegal, pay - this is thailand.

PAY.

Ah, if only i could afford to live in Europe.

[kropotkin]

Don't get caught or framed.

If they catch you doing something illegal, pay - no one to blame but yourself.

If they frame you doing nothing illegal, pay - this is thailand.

PAY.

Ah, if only i could afford to live in Europe.

to avoid misunderstandings:

"they" is NOT thailand, "they" are the mob that run the country.

"they" is not related to former, present, or future mobs.

[kropotkin]

Don't get caught or framed.

If they catch you doing something illegal, pay - no one to blame but yourself.

If they frame you doing nothing illegal, pay - this is thailand.

PAY.

Ah, if only i could afford to live in Europe.

to avoid misunderstandings:

"they" is NOT thailand, "they" are the mob that run the country.

"they" is not related to former, present, or future mobs.

[Amras]

As said, I think the point here is. If you can obtain a work permit for it, then it is deemed work. If you cannot obtain a work permit legally for it, then it cannot be classified as work.

Either you can or you can't. There is no, you can't get a work permit, but we still class it as work. To obtain a business visa you need to have a letter from a thai employer, which follows buy obtaining a work permit.

Therefore............logic dictates if you cannot get a B visa for it, you cannot obtain a work permit and it cannot be classified as work.

But........... This is Thailand.

[Soutpeel]

Therefore............logic dictates if you cannot get a B visa for it, you cannot obtain a work permit and it cannot be classified as work.

But........... This is Thailand.

One minor flaw in your cunning plan Baldrick.....WP are not only issued on Non-imm B's...

[jazzbo]

There is no, you can't get a work permit, but we still class it as work. The same instance of 'work' maybe be legal if done under the auspices of a bona fide Thai legal entity who arranges for a WP; however it would be considered unauthorized 'work' if done absent such legal entity auspices and WP... so there can be instances of work that ARE legal just illegal in the manner executed.

[kropotkin]

Therefore............logic dictates if you cannot get a B visa for it, you cannot obtain a work permit and it cannot be classified as work.

But........... This is Thailand.

One minor flaw in your cunning plan Baldrick.....WP are not only issued on Non-imm B's...

logic dictates...................that atckinson and cleese would be highly revered in thailand.

.

[Amras]

Therefore............logic dictates if you cannot get a B visa for it, you cannot obtain a work permit and it cannot be classified as work.

But........... This is Thailand.

One minor flaw in your cunning plan Baldrick.....WP are not only issued on Non-imm B's...

Yes, I considered that, but to my point it is irrelevant. I'm talking about obtaining a Non Imm B which is based on working (I know you can get (WP) them on Non O as well, but conditions for obtaining that Visa are different).

[Amras]

There is no, you can't get a work permit, but we still class it as work. The same instance of 'work' maybe be legal if done under the auspices of a bona fide Thai legal entity who arranges for a WP; however it would be considered unauthorized 'work' if done absent such legal entity auspices and WP... so there can be instances of work that ARE legal just illegal in the manner executed.

But that is not what I said. I said if the thai labour department DID NOT DEEM it as appropriate for providing a work permit (not that they deem it only appliable if you were performing that job as part of a Thai company). The scenario's many people are discussing here is regarding self employment online (and hence what my point was about). I am sure you can get a work permit doing any 'approporiate' job for a Thai company, but that is not what we are discussing, nor is it applicable to my point.

What is coming up here, is how does the labour department deem work for a non Thai 'legal entity', such as working for your self online? Which precludes the requirement for setting up a Thai company (and excludes the notion that you are dealing with in any regards anyone within Thailand).

Honestly, I don't believe this scenario was considered when the policy was made (more likely than not, because it would not have been such a possibility at that time). Although it could still seem black and white (ie it is working), there is the arguement that you are not working (in a job) that is directly tied to that country and hence you are not 'working' in that country.

Would be interesting to know what Australian immigration would think about the scenario of someone doing that hear. Maybe I will call them and see tomorrow (just for a comparison as Australian regulations are quite strict on non-working visitors).

[tombkk]

As said, I think the point here is. If you can obtain a work permit for it, then it is deemed work. If you cannot obtain a work permit legally for it, then it cannot be classified as work.

Either you can or you can't. There is no, you can't get a work permit, but we still class it as work. To obtain a business visa you need to have a letter from a thai employer, which follows buy obtaining a work permit.

Therefore............logic dictates if you cannot get a B visa for it, you cannot obtain a work permit and it cannot be classified as work.

But........... This is Thailand.

You are wrong. There is a list of jobs that foreigners are forbidden to take. Driving a taxi or a truck, or casting Buddha images are two examples that come to mind. the list is much longer. You can't get a work permit (or even a non- for that - but it is certainly work.

[tombkk]

My apologies if this matter has been raised earlier, but does moderating this forum constitute working?

For that matter, does posting in this forum constitute working?

Everybody was sure to submit their work permit when registering for TV, right?

Yes, but the WP is still pending, as I am still waiting for the confirmation that my salary will be at least THB 50,000 per month. ;-)

[tombkk]

As per my #144 if you are 'genuinely interested' in whether any given activity constitutes 'work' under Thai law, go into the local Labour Ministry Office or IMM Office and see what they say ... I did.

One reason you might not care to do that is that even if they say that yes that would constitute work and you cannot do that activity without a WP, you intend to do it regardless.

In post #144 you did not say what the outcome of your phone call was. In later posts, you say that it depends on the local officer. Kindly advise the purpose of the phone call.

Scratch that. The purpose of the phone is certainly to enquire about the law, and the current interpretation by *judges* (not some low-level officers in remote provinces). There is only one law in Thailand, and if a low-level officer in some province interpretes it in a way different from what the Ministry or the judges say, he or she needs to be corrected.

The problem in this country is that the government officials are not always properly trained or updated in the field they are working in, and they genuinely believe that they have more leeway than they actually do. The current government is very strict and straight-forward about application of the law, use it to your advantage.

[globalhopkinations]

In a couple months once renovations are done on my GF's shophouse we will be moving in,

Part 1. I'm renting the top floor have a lease with her for this, and will be moving bed, couch ............ in for this

Part 2. She is also moving all her stuff everything included in a clothing store from her current shop to this one, I had planned on helping with this.

I hadn't put much thought into this being allowed or within legal parameters until reading some of the stuff in this and a few other threads. This is not work as far as I'm concerned it's the 2 of us moving in to a new place . But the more I think about it helping her move the contents of her shop to the new location could be considered something more to others. Although to sit back and watch her do it all herself will probably end badly for our relationship and i couldn't do that anyways. But as I see it, it's not any different than carrying in the groceries from the car after shopping at the market. What does everybody else think? Not sure if it matters but it's a busy location in pattaya.

[jazzbo]

Phone call? I never made any phone call; my conversation was in the office ... I believe that I said at #144: Go in and ask them... and if your poorly informed or trained local administrator does not choose to press some matter then it will never get to a judge in the first place ... In some cases it seems the lower level flunky is being too strict; however by the interpretation of some herein on this Forum the suggestion is often that they are too lenient.

Even in the USA local courts can be overturned and then the second level court again overturned: That does not mean that in each case the prior court was poorly trained or informed... there is no one straight-forward interpretation as then there would be no appellate process.

Edited January 27, 2011 by jazzbo

[Amras]

As said, I think the point here is. If you can obtain a work permit for it, then it is deemed work. If you cannot obtain a work permit legally for it, then it cannot be classified as work.

Either you can or you can't. There is no, you can't get a work permit, but we still class it as work. To obtain a business visa you need to have a letter from a thai employer, which follows buy obtaining a work permit.

Therefore............logic dictates if you cannot get a B visa for it, you cannot obtain a work permit and it cannot be classified as work.

But........... This is Thailand.

You are wrong. There is a list of jobs that foreigners are forbidden to take. Driving a taxi or a truck, or casting Buddha images are two examples that come to mind. the list is much longer. You can't get a work permit (or even a non- for that - but it is certainly work.

Correct. But I thought I did not have to preclude those occupations from my discussion specifically. After all they are in a different basket. In no scenario can you do those and most people know that. As would most on here. We are talking about an occupation which could be done. I'm sure self employed working online is not on this list and hence the difficulty, confusion and pure speculation.

[jazzbo]

#176 But as I see it, it's not any different than carrying in the groceries from the car after shopping at the market ... However you are not I presume intending to re-sell the groceries.

[Forkinhades]

what about all the fralangs that own a bar? most do not have a wp, and what about people who rent out bikes, cars etc etc, again most do not have a wp?