Six dead, U.S. Congresswoman Giffords among at least 12 injured in Az. shooting

[Ulysses G.]

Is there any printed script of this suposed video. God I hate u tube.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=nHoaZaLbqB4

The video is his insane ramblings in print with (pretty good) music in the background. There is no clear political ideology expressed at all. It looks like someone having a psychotic breakdown who has scribbled his delusions on a pad of paper and then transfer them to video.

[Ulysses G.]

The hate filled political rhetoric that fills U.S. airwaves is heavily implicated in the event. The vitriolic hate speech filled with exagerations and misrepresentaions encourages violence and a contempt and distrust for government and its institutions.

He is correct, but the "vitriolic hate speech filled with exaggerations and misrepresentations" is coming from both the left and the right and pretty much equally.

[happyrobert]

Has anyone got any information on why the police believe that the shooter had an accompice at all? Keep hearing they are looking for a 50 year old accomplice but nothing as to why they have come to this conclusion.

The police statement I heard said they are interested in a person, but did not want to say anything at this time about it. I would guess that is why no followup on it. I guess it is because he may have nothing to do with it other then he dropped the person off without knowing his plans or something like that. If that is the case jumping on calling him an accomplice or being part of it is law suite city for them.

This kind of guy may not qualify for a drivers license if he has been on med's for scitsofania etc. His mind control remarks remind me of a person I know that started putting tin foil in his helmet - he was sure the cell phone towers are used to read minds. He was called to active during the first gulf war and we though he was kidding around. Had to go down to a navy pair and pick him up as he was trying to get them to do a fire exercise on the cell phone towers in the area and they were holding him at the gate. Turns out he ran out of med's after being called to active and had been getting them local at his own expense so the government would not discharge him from the reserve unit and lose his retirement - when the med's ran out he flipped out. To bad because before that - he was kind of fun to have around.

Is this the condition where you are upset because you are not in touch with the celebrities you like?

[happyrobert]

Guy's a wacko period! Nothing more to say really. Stating he is left or right brings nothing to the argument. Plain and simple he is insane. Case closed. However, the case for access to handguns in the US should be looked at more closely. It's one thing to allow rifles but handguns are so dangerous because they can be concealed so easily.

So how do you propose to successfully confiscate them? (Answer) Are you sure?

[cdnvic]

Removed one post that modified another's quote.

[geriatrickid]

The hate filled political rhetoric that fills U.S. airwaves is heavily implicated in the event. The vitriolic hate speech filled with exagerations and misrepresentaions encourages violence and a contempt and distrust for government and its institutions.

He is correct, but the "vitriolic hate speech filled with exaggerations and misrepresentations" is coming from both the left and the right and pretty much equally.

With all due respect, the most obscene rhetoric come from people that call themselves "conservative" and attached to "values". This rhetoric attracts the mentally unstable. These people are anything but conservative in the traditional sense and preach a hatred and contempt for public service and the government. It isn't anything new. Abortion clinics have been bombed, and physicians providing the medical treatment have been murdered since the 1970's. The Westboro Baptist Church pickets the funerals of KIAs. Westboro is an example of the most extreme views out there, yet there are no extreme leftists that would go and disrespect a dead soldier's family and friends llike they do. The Glenn Beck's of this world play to the lowest common denominator of their audiences; ignorant fear. It was interesting to watch how some of these extremists targeted legitimate conservatives in the Republican and Democratic parties and knocked them off in favour of "tea party" favourites. I do not see any so called social activists dressed in camo pants carrying automatic weapons to public events. The people one might call leftists are actually centrists and adhere to some fundamentally consistent non violent positions. A classic example are activist Christians. They may vocalize their views and even infuriate folks, but they don't push a violent agenda. The classic example is Jimmy Carter. I loathe the man and his views, and he has used some tough language. Yet, he is non violent and motivated in large part because of his fundamentalist religious views. This contrasts sharply to someone like this;

Right-wing radio personality George Caylor at a tea partygathering;

George Caylor: The next American revolution begins here and begins tonight. […] Yesterday a friend of mine gave me a report from Homeland Security telling the FBI that people who are unhappy with government spending, the tax code, the general dismantling of our country, with supporting illegal immigrants with tens of millions of tax dollars, that you may be dangerous people.

Random Audience Member: We might be!

George Caylor: I pray to God you are.

That's typical of that percentage of citizens. they are small and yet they push their agenda on everyone else. and it's always with force. These aren't the people that put their lives on the line to defend freedom and liberties. I'm with Jon Stewart on this one. The vast majority of Americans are moderate centrists.

[koheesti]

With all due respect, the most obscene rhetoric come from people that call themselves "conservative" and attached to "values". This rhetoric attracts the mentally unstable. These people are anything but conservative in the traditional sense and preach a hatred and contempt for public service and the government. It isn't anything new. Abortion clinics have been bombed, and physicians providing the medical treatment have been murdered since the 1970's. The Westboro Baptist Church pickets the funerals of KIAs. Westboro is an example of the most extreme views out there, yet there are no extreme leftists that would go and disrespect a dead soldier's family and friends llike they do. The Glenn Beck's of this world play to the lowest common denominator of their audiences; ignorant fear. It was interesting to watch how some of these extremists targeted legitimate conservatives in the Republican and Democratic parties and knocked them off in favour of "tea party" favourites. I do not see any so called social activists dressed in camo pants carrying automatic weapons to public events. The people one might call leftists are actually centrists and adhere to some fundamentally consistent non violent positions. A classic example are activist Christians. They may vocalize their views and even infuriate folks, but they don't push a violent agenda. The classic example is Jimmy Carter. I loathe the man and his views, and he has used some tough language. Yet, he is non violent and motivated in large part because of his fundamentalist religious views. This contrasts sharply to someone like this;

Right-wing radio personality George Caylor at a tea partygathering;

George Caylor: The next American revolution begins here and begins tonight. […] Yesterday a friend of mine gave me a report from Homeland Security telling the FBI that people who are unhappy with government spending, the tax code, the general dismantling of our country, with supporting illegal immigrants with tens of millions of tax dollars, that you may be dangerous people.

Random Audience Member: We might be!

George Caylor: I pray to God you are.

That's typical of that percentage of citizens. they are small and yet they push their agenda on everyone else. and it's always with force. These aren't the people that put their lives on the line to defend freedom and liberties. I'm with Jon Stewart on this one. The vast majority of Americans are moderate centrists.

It should be pointed out that it is a classic tactic to list Glenn Beck, Hannity & Rush as people inciting others (ignorant masses) to violence but can never actually show where they have done this. It's that whole "repeat a lie enough times" bit.

Edited January 10, 2011 by koheesti

[Ulysses G.]

It should be pointed out that it is a classic tactic to list Glenn Beck, Hannity & Rush as people inciting others (ignorant masses) to violence but can never actually show where they have done this. It's that whole "repeat a lie enough times" bit.

I do not like these three, but have never seen them inciting violence and have watched a fair bit of Beck and Hannity when there was nothing else on the TV.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[sbk]

To bring some perspective to this discussion:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/01/09/132782471/tucsons-victims-young-and-old-public-servants-and-citizens?ps=rs

Of all the tragedies, the death of 9-year-old Christina Taylor Green seemed to cut the deepest, as children's deaths invariably do.

The grade-schooler was recently elected president of the student council at the Mesa Verde Elementary School.

According to someone who knew her, she wanted to be a veterinarian. But she was outside the Safeway supermarket at Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' "Congress on Your Corner" event because she was also interested in politics.

Her grief-stricken father, John Green, a scout for the Los Angeles Dodgers, told an interviewer through a voice that broke at times:

She was born on 9/11. So she came in on a tragedy and she went out on a tragedy. Those nine years in between were very special. We're all going to miss Christina. We were four people. Now we're three. All I can say is we're going to be strong for each other. And we're going to honor Christina because she was a beautiful strong little girl. And we're going to remember all the good things about her.

She was the granddaughter of Dallas Green, the former Phillies pitcher and manager.

[koheesti]

To bring some perspective to this discussion:

http://www.npr.org/b...-citizens?ps=rs

Of all the tragedies, the death of 9-year-old Christina Taylor Green seemed to cut the deepest, as children's deaths invariably do.

Was she killed by a stray bullet or did this guy put the gun to her head like the others? If it is the latter, then who else but a psycho would do that to a little girl?

[geriatrickid]

It should be pointed out that it is a classic tactic to list Glenn Beck, Hannity & Rush as people inciting others (ignorant masses) to violence but can never actually show where they have done this. It's that whole "repeat a lie enough times" bit.

Really?

"When do we ever run those who are bankrupting our country and literally stealing ourchildren's future out of town? Grab a torch." [Glenn Beck, 1/6/10]

While discussing theongoing controversy over Arizona'simmigration law, Beck told his listeners that "we are being pushed"toward civil war and that Obama is "trying to destroy the country." [TheGlenn Beck Program, 5/19/10]

Beck: "There is a coup going on. There is a stealing of America." [The Glenn BeckProgram, 8/31/09]

Beck: "[T]hat's not begging forWorld War III; that's called giving you thefacts."Referencing a speech he had given the previous weekend in Alaska, Beck discussed how he told the audience that "you are Fort Knox." He explained that if the economy collapses, Alaskans must "grab your guns"because "the Russians, the Chinese -- everyone is coming to Alaska, because that's where the money is. Now, that's not begging for World War III; that's called giving you the facts. But see, there are those people that reallywant this to collapse, and they are planning on violence. They're planning on it --we've already shown you. We've already seen it with SEIU. We've shown it to you over in Europe." [The Glenn Beck Program, told graduates that they "have a responsibility" to speak out, or "blood ...will be on our hands." His advice for graduates (as well as his daughter) included "shoot to kill."

After President Obama signed healthcare reform legislation into law, Beck suggested that progressives support "armed insurrection" and asked, "Why would the president take up immigration right away, after he's just punched you in the face with healthcare?" [Glenn Beck, 3/23/10]

On his Fox News show, Beck quoted aletter by Thomas Jefferson warning that "'if they lose freedom' -- he's speaking of us, future generations -- 'if theylose freedom, there will be rivers of blood.' " Beck continued in his ownwords, "Boy, I hope that's not true, but I can tell you there will berivers of blood if we don't have values and principles." [Glenn Beck,5/14/10]

On his March 30, 2009, Fox News show, Beck aired a graphic portraying Obama and Democrats as vampires and said: "The government is full of vampires, and they are trying to suck the lifeblood out of theeconomy." Beck then suggested "driv[ing] a stake through the heart ofthe bloodsuckers." Beck returned to that imagery on his January 19 radioshow, warning listeners that progressives are "vampires" who now have a "taste ofblood" and are "gonna start getting more and more violent."

Interesting enough, the old Conservatives, the ones that used to draw the fire, guys like Pastor John Hagee as right wing as they come never preached violence. Fire & brimstone, yes, but not nasty crap like Beck. Pastor Joel Osteen, one of America's most popular evangelicals gets dismissed as too soft by Mr. Beck.

I find it slightly odd that Beck, a devout Mormon is so obsessed with his attacks on government. I wonder if it has anything to do with the Mormon Church's past armed conflicts against the rule of law and objections to such things as an end to discrimination. Evangelicals like Osteen and Hagee never belonged to groups that excluded visible minorities. Go figger.

[cdnvic]

We're straying off topic again.

[happyrobert]

To bring some perspective to this discussion:

http://www.npr.org/b...-citizens?ps=rs

Of all the tragedies, the death of 9-year-old Christina Taylor Green seemed to cut the deepest, as children's deaths invariably do.

The grade-schooler was recently elected president of the student council at the Mesa Verde Elementary School.

According to someone who knew her, she wanted to be a veterinarian. But she was outside the Safeway supermarket at Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' "Congress on Your Corner" event because she was also interested in politics.

Her grief-stricken father, John Green, a scout for the Los Angeles Dodgers, told an interviewer through a voice that broke at times:

She was born on 9/11. So she came in on a tragedy and she went out on a tragedy. Those nine years in between were very special. We're all going to miss Christina. We were four people. Now we're three. All I can say is we're going to be strong for each other. And we're going to honor Christina because she was a beautiful strong little girl. And we're going to remember all the good things about her.

She was the granddaughter of Dallas Green, the former Phillies pitcher and manager.

Thanks for the post. To all who insist on posting your political views, no one's interested but you. Forget the politics and the perp and speculation and remember victims like this little girl and her family.

[JUDAS]

To bring some perspective to this discussion:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/01/09/132782471/tucsons-victims-young-and-old-public-servants-and-citizens?ps=rs

Of all the tragedies, the death of 9-year-old Christina Taylor Green seemed to cut the deepest, as children's deaths invariably do.

The grade-schooler was recently elected president of the student council at the Mesa Verde Elementary School.

According to someone who knew her, she wanted to be a veterinarian. But she was outside the Safeway supermarket at Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' "Congress on Your Corner" event because she was also interested in politics.

Her grief-stricken father, John Green, a scout for the Los Angeles Dodgers, told an interviewer through a voice that broke at times:

She was born on 9/11. So she came in on a tragedy and she went out on a tragedy. Those nine years in between were very special. We're all going to miss Christina. We were four people. Now we're three. All I can say is we're going to be strong for each other. And we're going to honor Christina because she was a beautiful strong little girl. And we're going to remember all the good things about her.

She was the granddaughter of Dallas Green, the former Phillies pitcher and manager.

I saw an interview with the parents via telephone on the news, totally heartbreaking. It goes against the laws of nature for parents to have to bury their child. RIP Christina.

[cdnvic]

Off topic posts removed, see last warning.

[geriatrickid]

Thanks for the post. To all who insist on posting your political views, no one's interested but you. Forget the politics and the perp and speculation and remember victims like this little girl and her family.

I'm sorry but there is a definitive link. When Sarah Palin puts out offensive images like this, it speaks volumes. Gun site targets? Oh sure, Palin is back tracking now and the images have been deleted, but, come on now, is such imagery necessary?

When Sarah Palin tweets the following; Commonsense Conservatives & lovers of America: "Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!" Pls see my Facebook page. 9:31 AM Mar 23rd, 2010 via OpenBeak Retweeted by 100+ people SarahPalinUSA Sarah Palin it speaks volumes. It's sick.

The saddest aspect of the child's murder is that the family friend that took the child to meet the Congresswoman could hardly be described as "liberal". She was taking a family friend to fulfill her wish to meet the congresswoman. This woman took 3 bullet hits and was still trying to protect the child as a bystander nurse and her physician husband responded, The federal judge that was shot was appointed by President Bush the elder. He had just left mass and wanted to say to hello to his friend the congresswoman. Dorwin Stoddard, 76, a pastor at Mountain Ave. Church of Christ died while shielding his wife. The retired army colonel that helped stop the gunman and took a bullet to his head was hardly there as a lefty, but was there to meet his congresswoman.or the two elderly ladies, Dorthy Morris, 76. and Phyllis Scheck, 79 could hardly be described as socialists, but they were killed.

The point I am making here, is that assumptions of right vs. left go out the window. Yet, people like Sarah Palin call these people lefties, socialists etc. What is at stake here is exactly what the Sheriff Dupnik said, there is too much angry senseless political rhetoric that seeks to demonize any and all that do not comply wih some political group demands.

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on this country is getting to be outrageous and unfortunately Arizona has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry."The vitriolic rhetoric that we hear day in and day out from people in the radio business and some people in the TV business … This has not become the nice United States that most of us grew up in."

[Ulysses G.]

BOTH sides have used the targeting imagery and as much as I dislike Glenn Beck, he does not incite violence (despite a bunch of quotes that indicate otherwise, but are taken completely out of context). In fact, he renounces it on a regular basis.

Trying to blame this on one side or the other is just plain erroneous.

Unnoted by Giffords then, or Krugman now, is the routine use of similar language and imagery by both parties in a culture obsessed with "battleground" states. Indeed, a nearly identical map, included in a Democratic Leadership Committee publication in 2004, featured nine bullseyes over regions where Republican candidates were considered vulnerable that year, and was accompanied by a caption reading: TARGETING STRATEGY. A smaller caption, beneath the bullseyes, read: BEHIND ENEMY LINES. The map illustrated an article on campaign strategy by Will Marshall of the Progressive Policy Institute.

Krugman's blog post on Saturday linked "the rhetoric of Beck, Limbaugh, etc." to "the violence I fear we're going to see in the months and years ahead," and added: "Violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate." Yet in all of the grammatically hobbled writings and statements that Loughner posted on the Internet -- in which, ironically, one of his chief obsessions was others' poor grammar -- the failed student and awkward loner made not a single reference to talk-radio or the TV hosts Krugman cited, to the health care debate or the Tea Party, to Sarah Palin or Fox News.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/10/arizona-massacre-prompts-political-cheap-shots/

[RKASA]

"Shortly after November's electoral defeat for the Democrats, pollster Mark Penn appeared on Chris Matthews's TV show and remarked that what President Obama needed to reconnect with the American people was another Oklahoma City bombing. To judge from the reaction to Saturday's tragic shootings in Arizona, many on the left (and in the press) agree, and for a while hoped that Jared Lee Loughner's killing spree might fill the bill." Forgot which art. it was in it was still on my clip board. I believe it is WSJ ah yes it was.

Yes and some here get their talking points from MSNBC

The sheriff admitted everything he said was not based on any facts and only a personnel opinion of his 31 years as an elected Democrat and friend of the Judge that died. I can understand why the sheriff whom has been interviewed countless times in the past attacking the Tea Party would be upset by this event in his town and the victimizing of he's friends, he must feel even more pain then us, I would be mad too. That is why it is good the Fed will do the investigation. The Sheriff is to close to this crime to be objective and is starting to see a wider conspiracy without facts.

Blaming the use of signs in a campaign only mean you would also not allow kids at a foot ball game to have posters - if you read them you would claim it was a call to real violence too. Spin and FUD at the direction of those that have planned it that way. People like Mark Penn and Chis Matthew that hoped something like this would happen. Yes they hoped it could happen

In 2008 Obama said "If they bring a knife - we get a gun". so I guess that wacko should be removed from office your policy not mine.

[happyrobert]

Thanks for the post. To all who insist on posting your political views, no one's interested but you. Forget the politics and the perp and speculation and remember victims like this little girl and her family.

I'm sorry but there is a definitive link. When Sarah Palin puts out offensive images like this, it speaks volumes. Gun site targets? Oh sure, Palin is back tracking now and the images have been deleted, but, come on now, is such imagery necessary?

When Sarah Palin tweets the following; Commonsense Conservatives & lovers of America: "Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!" Pls see my Facebook page. 9:31 AM Mar 23rd, 2010 via OpenBeak Retweeted by 100+ people SarahPalinUSA Sarah Palin it speaks volumes. It's sick.

The saddest aspect of the child's murder is that the family friend that took the child to meet the Congresswoman could hardly be described as "liberal". She was taking a family friend to fulfill her wish to meet the congresswoman. This woman took 3 bullet hits and was still trying to protect the child as a bystander nurse and her physician husband responded, The federal judge that was shot was appointed by President Bush the elder. He had just left mass and wanted to say to hello to his friend the congresswoman. Dorwin Stoddard, 76, a pastor at Mountain Ave. Church of Christ died while shielding his wife. The retired army colonel that helped stop the gunman and took a bullet to his head was hardly there as a lefty, but was there to meet his congresswoman.or the two elderly ladies, Dorthy Morris, 76. and Phyllis Scheck, 79 could hardly be described as socialists, but they were killed.

The point I am making here, is that assumptions of right vs. left go out the window. Yet, people like Sarah Palin call these people lefties, socialists etc. What is at stake here is exactly what the Sheriff Dupnik said, there is too much angry senseless political rhetoric that seeks to demonize any and all that do not comply wih some political group demands.

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on this country is getting to be outrageous and unfortunately Arizona has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry."The vitriolic rhetoric that we hear day in and day out from people in the radio business and some people in the TV business … This has not become the nice United States that most of us grew up in."

Sorry, not intending to be rude to you, but one of the many reasons I left the States was to get away from the media and all those whose personal reality encompasses endless debate of various political views in the belief that it will make a difference. It won't.

I slipped up, like an alcoholic who temporally falls off the wagon, and continued to read the thread. But I will not be revisiting this thread so need to reply. I'm stepping out my front door and going for a walk on the beach and enjoying the sound of the waves and the feel of the sun. Please feel free to absorb all the hate and discontent that the news media wishes us to be infatuated with and to be constantly on our minds. The news of the murder of a 9 year old with a promising future was bad enough, but to endlessly debate why it happened, to no positive end, is not good food for the human spirit. Regardless of your good intentions, you are not going to fix anything that they are doing to what was once a great country. "United we stand, divided we fall?" It is their mission to insure the latter.

The opinions expressed here are from my personal reality, which is actually quite a peaceful one.

[geriatrickid]

BOTH sides have used the targeting imagery and as much as I dislike Glenn Beck, he does not incite violence (despite a bunch of quotes that indicate otherwise, but are taken completely out of context). In fact, he renounces it on a regular basis.

Trying to blame this on one side or the other is just plain erroneous.

Unnoted by Giffords then, or Krugman now, is the routine use of similar language and imagery by both parties in a culture obsessed with "battleground" states. Indeed, a nearly identical map, included in a Democratic Leadership Committee publication in 2004, featured nine bullseyes over regions where Republican candidates were considered vulnerable that year, and was accompanied by a caption reading: TARGETING STRATEGY. A smaller caption, beneath the bullseyes, read: BEHIND ENEMY LINES. The map illustrated an article on campaign strategy by Will Marshall of the Progressive Policy Institute.

Krugman's blog post on Saturday linked "the rhetoric of Beck, Limbaugh, etc." to "the violence I fear we're going to see in the months and years ahead," and added: "Violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate." Yet in all of the grammatically hobbled writings and statements that Loughner posted on the Internet -- in which, ironically, one of his chief obsessions was others' poor grammar -- the failed student and awkward loner made not a single reference to talk-radio or the TV hosts Krugman cited, to the health care debate or the Tea Party, to Sarah Palin or Fox News.

http://www.foxnews.c...al-cheap-shots/

Really? I can see why Fox News in the USA, the hub of hate rhetoric, would be so quick to try and distance itself. When is the last time angry scarey folks armed with multiple fire arms attended a democratic or republican mainline event screaming and frothing at the mouth that the government was evil and had to be dismantled? it isn't a question of blame. Rather it is an acknowledgement of accountability and responsibility for preaching anger and disrespect. As I stated previously, it isn't about right or left. Rather, it is the goading and encouragement of of susceptible people by various manipulative talk radio and TV commentators, many of which find a home at Fox USA. Rupert Murdoch the bigwig at Fox isn't a drooling faciast bully. He has respected the editorial right of the people running the Fox News division in the USA to do as they see fit. In return, they have pushed the line of fair political comment and hid behind the freedom of speech and the freedom of the press to excuse many of the incendiary statements that come from several of their employees. Responsibilities go hand in hand with Rights. it is obvious that in our world of me, me, me today, many people have lost sight of what the concept of responsibility and basic respect is. I have often observed that those that we legitimately affix the term liberal and conservative to are quite similar in respect to their demonstration of manners and respect for others. They will disagree, but do so in a civil manner. The Arizona massacre is a demonstration of what happens when extremist views take hold.

Yes, indeed there are people on both sides of the political side of things that resort to hyberbole However, the non extremist right wing groups are usually quickly condemned and more often than not, will acknowledge when they have erred. The Glenn Becks of this world never, ever admit to being wrong or accept responsibility for their wild nonsensical claims. Is it really out of context when Glenn Beck says; Would you kill someone for that?...I'm thinking about killing Michale Moore . I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it,...No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out. Is this wrong? I stopped wearing my What Would Jesus - band Do, and I've lost all sense of right and wrong now. I used to be able to say, "Yeah, I'd kill Michael Moore," and then I'd see the little band: What Would Jesus Do? And then I'd realize, "Oh, you wouldn't kill Michael Moore. Or at least you wouldn't choke him to death." And you know, well, I'm not sure.

2005-05-17

Aside from the fact that Mr. Beck is blasphemous in his reference to Jesus (he is not a Christian) it demonstrates his pettiness. Is it any wonder that Mr. Moore has been targeted by nutters. I do not agree with Mr. Moore on many issues, but it wouldn't cross my mind to suggest killing him. When is the last time, the ladies from Code Pink engaged in violence or preached violence? I can't stand Code Pink with some of its idiotic policies and political positions, yet not once have those ladies intenionally physically assaulted people or used language that would encourage or indicate the approval of violence. Although it is highly probable that the Arizona murders were the work of a clinically insane man. However, when we feed such people crckpot notions and then allow them to go out and purchase firearms, isn't a surprise then when people end up dead?

I can see the wagons drawing round as some vested interests fear the greater implications and fallout from the Arizona murders. It can't come fast enough. How I miss the days of fierce debate in the USA that was conducted by brilliant men and women of intellect and integrity. The USA and the world today misses the likes of Scoop Jackson, Barry Goldwater, Patrick Moynihan, Howard Baker, William Proxmire, William Cohen, John Tower, Lowell Weicker, Hubert Humphrey, Pete Domenici, Sam Nunn and so many others, both democrat and republican. Today these great senators would be targeted by the guttersnipes and cheap shot artists of talk radio, The killings in Arizona are an indication of the growing moral decay and evaporation of morality that plagues a once great nation that has fallen prey to selfishness and crude demagoguery.

[Jingthing]

Thanks for the post. To all who insist on posting your political views, no one's interested but you. Forget the politics and the perp and speculation and remember victims like this little girl and her family.

That's factually incorrect to state that nobody is interested in the politics related to an attempted assassination of a political official in a highly politically polarized congressional district.

As it is now known based on hard evidence that the target was indeed the congresswoman Giffords (based on signed documents found at the perp's home), that part isn't really an item of reasonable debate either.

Here is the proof that there is indeed massive interest in the political issues related to the shootings (there are many of these, the abrasive divisive tone of American politics, mental health policy, and super lax gun laws in states like Arizona, etc.) --

Zuckerberg: 'Is Sarah Palin To Blame For AZ Shooting' Top Question On Facebook Today

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/zuckerberg-is-sarah-palin-to-blame-for-az-shooting-top-question-on-facebook-today-2011-1#ixzz1Ah6W8bwG

Very early in this thread I posted that the perp was a military veteran. I was just parroting what FOX NEWS was saying very early in the reporting of the event. I did not get that from a left wing blog, I got it from Fox News. I most certainly should have mentioned that Fox News is now reporting this, which would have made it clear that I wasn't announcing it is a fact, just mentioning something that was out there already, that obviously turned out to be incorrect.

As far as the politics of Gifford's district, it is a traditionally a right wing district. Even a right leaning democrat like Giffords who voted for Obamacare, who wasn't seen as pro gun rights enough by the NRA even though she has been pro gun rights, who wasn't seen a hard line enough against illegal immigrants, is seen by the extreme right as one of their political enemies on the left.

The other aspect which may or may not be relevant to the motives is that Giffords is a Jew. There have been media reports linking the perp to an extremist right wing white supremacist organization known for both virulent anti-semitism and also racist anti-immigrant sentiments. That is not the same as saying he was a member of this group which the group denies, but he MAY have been influenced by them perhaps from reading their website. We just don't know yet.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Jingthing

[koheesti]

BOTH sides have used the targeting imagery and as much as I dislike Glenn Beck, he does not incite violence (despite a bunch of quotes that indicate otherwise, but are taken completely out of context). In fact, he renounces it on a regular basis.

Trying to blame this on one side or the other is just plain erroneous.

Unnoted by Giffords then, or Krugman now, is the routine use of similar language and imagery by both parties in a culture obsessed with "battleground" states. Indeed, a nearly identical map, included in a Democratic Leadership Committee publication in 2004, featured nine bullseyes over regions where Republican candidates were considered vulnerable that year, and was accompanied by a caption reading: TARGETING STRATEGY. A smaller caption, beneath the bullseyes, read: BEHIND ENEMY LINES. The map illustrated an article on campaign strategy by Will Marshall of the Progressive Policy Institute.

Krugman's blog post on Saturday linked "the rhetoric of Beck, Limbaugh, etc." to "the violence I fear we're going to see in the months and years ahead," and added: "Violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate." Yet in all of the grammatically hobbled writings and statements that Loughner posted on the Internet -- in which, ironically, one of his chief obsessions was others' poor grammar -- the failed student and awkward loner made not a single reference to talk-radio or the TV hosts Krugman cited, to the health care debate or the Tea Party, to Sarah Palin or Fox News.

http://www.foxnews.c...al-cheap-shots/

Really? I can see why Fox News in the USA, the hub of hate rhetoric, ...

Sorry, stopped reading after this totally baseless drivel. You've never watched, just gone to some leftwing sites to pull out some quotes.

[geriatrickid]

Sorry, stopped reading after this totally baseless drivel. You've never watched, just gone to some leftwing sites to pull out some quotes.

I have indeed had Fox News inflicted upon me. It was painful. I'm on crappy True Viusions with no CNN feed. BBC news isn't on when I'm around.

Baseless drivel? Thanks. Nope, didn't pull it from a left wing site. Original author with one exception. The Glenn Beck quote on how he would like to kill Michael Moore is from Glenn Beck's radio show and I verified the actual quote via wiki. You provide a demonstration of extremist sentiment when you consider my position "left wing". You say you didn't read it, but you are quick to label it. Good job. Senator Joe McCarthy used to label the people that disagreed with him as commies. It took the US military to stop that pompous non veteran's bullying, just as it took WWI artillery Captain and a veteran of trench warfare Harry S. Truman to stop the madman MacArthur.

I suggest you read what I wrote. It reflects the majority view of people. We're fed up of having fringe groups and their manipulative media pals trying to force loonie views on us. I didn't write one thing you can refute with an actual fact. I don't have to rely on blogs or various political activist sites to provide my prose. I was reared on Pogo. How I miss the genius of Walt Kelly. He made his point without advocating violence and without cheap labels or hate.

I am grateful for people with intergrity like the local Sheriff and the good samaritans like Colonel Badger that helped the wounded or stopped the assailant. The people that were murdered were essentially conservative decent folk. This is the tragic irony of the event. It's always the people that shoulder the responsibilities, that build the communities, that do the good deeds and that keep society functioning that pay the price for those that rant about their personal rights.

[Ulysses G.]

There are plenty of suggestions of violence on both sides.

A spoiled child (Bush) is telling us our Social Security isn't safe anymore, so he is going to fix it for us. Well, here's your answer, you ungrateful whelp: [audio sound of 4 gunshots being fired.] Just try it, you little b*stard. [audio of gun being cocked]." — A "humor bit" from the Randi Rhodes Show"

I want to go up to the closest white person and say: 'You can't understand this, it's a black thing' and then slap him, just for my mental health" — New York city councilman Charles Barron

"..And then there's Rumsfeld who said of Iraq 'We have our good days and our bad days.' We should put this S.O.B. up against a wall and say 'This is one of our bad days' and pull the trigger." — From a fundraising ad put out by the St. Petersburg Democratic Club

"I believe in ecoterrorism." — James Cameron

"…In an ideal world, American consumers could be convinced to do the right thing through an appeal to logic with public service messages like the 'What Would Jesus Drive?' TV campaign, but the kind of people who would buy a car that increases the risk to other motorists in an accident can't be reasoned with. They're selfish and stupid. It's unfortunate that drivers must worry that their SUVs are being targeted by insulting stickers and Molotov cocktails, but one thing's for sure: It couldn't be happening to a more deserving group of people." — Ted Rall winks at ecoterrorism

"F*** God D*mned Joe the God D*mned Motherf***ng plumber! I want Motherf***ing Joe the plumber dead." — Liberal talk show host Charles Karel Bouley on the air.

much more: http://www.conservat...ng-hate-speech/

Edited January 11, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

I agree there is hateful rhetoric coming from both the right and the left in the US. I would assert there is much more coming from the right, but that is just my subjective impression and I think it would be very difficult to prove that either way scientifically. For example, perhaps you could find 1000 violent references from left, and 500 from the right, but that wouldn't prove anything unless you could gauge the audience size for these various messages. Also, keep in mind that the right is associated with being pro gun and pro proactive military action while the left is more associated with gun controls and a more restrained foreign policy.

That said, in the political context of the border county of Pima County Arizona, Rep. Giffords had a history of receiving violent threats from the right, and even suffered an attack on her office, again, from the right. There is even a media record of her specifically complaining about the gun target imagery coming from right winger Sarah Palin which specifically "targeted" her. These things are relative in a country where much of the right wing insists on calling our objectively left moderate President a foreign born socialist out to destroy America.

Was the perp politically motivated? It is too early to say so exactly, to what degree, and if so what his politics were (not to mention that the political content that does appear in his communications indeed does come off as incoherent).

Is he insane? It certainly appears so. However, most insane people and most paranoid schizophrenics (the prevailing amateur diagnosis) are not the slightest bit violent.

It is not unheard of in the modern world for insane people to commit violent political actions, these things aren't mutually exclusive, as I said before, a person can be both political and insane. When a young depressed jihadist blows himself up in a market, people focus on the violence, but rarely mention the person was quite likely mentally ill as well to do that.

Was the target political? Factually yes as his premeditated target was an elected congresswoman.

Is there some kind of political fallout to an attack on a political target? Obviously.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Jingthing

[koheesti]

You provide a demonstration of extremist sentiment when you consider my position "left wing".

Your quote "Fox News in the USA, the hub of hate rhetoric" is exactly the left wing position.

You say you didn't read it, but you are quick to label it. Good job.

When your opening statement is so off the mark (full of shit) there is every reason to believe that the remaining paragraphs will be more of the same. If you started a rant with "I pity Jews because they have horns" I wouldn't be alone in not having bothered to read further.

[koheesti]

I agree there is hateful rhetoric coming from both the right and the left in the US. I would assert there is much more coming from the right, but that is just my subjective impression and I think it would be very difficult to prove that either way scientifically. For example, perhaps you could find 1000 violent references from left, and 500 from the right, but that wouldn't prove anything unless you could gauge the audience size for these various messages.

Also not scientific, but when I hear hate speech from the right, it is usually from uneducated people. When I hear it from the left it is usually from the educated - the ones who should know better.

[geriatrickid]

You provide a demonstration of extremist sentiment when you consider my position "left wing".

Your quote "Fox News in the USA, the hub of hate rhetoric" is exactly the left wing position.

You say you didn't read it, but you are quick to label it. Good job.

When your opening statement is so off the mark (full of shit) there is every reason to believe that the remaining paragraphs will be more of the same. If you started a rant with "I pity Jews because they have horns" I wouldn't be alone in not having bothered to read further.

I stand by my statement that Fox USA News presents extremist views and that it is indeed a hub of hate rhetoric. It may be what you consider a left wing position, but I am not a left winger. You disagree. Good for you. I didn't start any rant with a reference to jews, so stifle yourself. And btw jews do have horns. They are called shofars and are an integral part of their high holidays. As I recall, they also used them to make the walls of Jericho come tumbling down. I also note that Harry James and Herb Alpert have horns and the world is alot better for it. The Tel aviv symphony has horns too. And therein is a lesson for you. You go off on a tangent and use anger. I respond with levity and compassion. I turn the other cheek and forgive you and your sins.

Edited January 11, 2011 by geriatrickid

[Ulysses G.]

I agree there is hateful rhetoric coming from both the right and the left in the US. I would assert there is much more coming from the right...

Also not scientific, but when I hear hate speech from the right, it is usually from uneducated people. When I hear it from the left it is usually from the educated - the ones who should know better.

If you include all the hateful rhetoric spouted about George Bush, Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld, I'm pretty sure that the left would be more than competitive.

[Ulysses G.]

I stand by my statement that Fox USA News presents extremist views and that it is indeed a hub of hate rhetoric.

Several of the commentators are possibly nuts, but they do not advocate hate or violence.