Cambodian Border Needs Modern Demarcation: Thai Army Chief

[webfact]

BORDER DISPUTES

Cambodian border needs modern demarcation: Army chief

By The Nation

Army chief Gen Prayuth Chan-Ocha has called for a new push to solve border disputes with Cambodia, saying the previous demarcation was carried out 300 years ago with low technology.

"Only elephants were used and no planes. We looked at trees but those trees have died. Waterways, land and other environmental conditions have changed. If we do not hold talks on demarcation, we will face this same old problem,'' he said.

Prayuth said the Army would not let the country lose territory and was ready to protect national sovereignty but in recent case of seven Thais accused of trespassing into Cambodian territory the Army had to wait as it was still being deal with by a court.

"If a land demarcation is clear, and the other side encroaches upon our territory, there will be shootings [in defence],'' he said.

To prevent the two countries going to war over encroachment claims, he said both must sign a pact or enter an agreement. He cited the fighting over Nong Chan, saying Cambodia agreed to leave the area after there had been a demarcation.

He said the seven Thais should have informed the First Army Region before entering the contentious area.

He stressed three basics for foreign policies with neighbouring countries that would ensure smooth bilateral ties: understanding, trust and equality.

The Army chief assured that under this management, there would be fair treatment for all soldiers and no discrimination and favouritism.

"You cannot say you (must get better treatment) because you are from Burapa group. I do not care,'' he said.

He also voiced concern over the lack of modern weapons and equipment, saying the country spent only 1.6 per cent of GDP on arms purchases, which in his view was very little. "If you compare the number of soldiers, we are stronger. But I ask what we should do since our equipment is more outdated. Our neighbouring countries get foreign support but we do not get that because they think we can depend on ourselves."

As Army chief, he believed he had a responsibility to take good care of soldiers and their families in order to give them faith.

"If we can create faith, they are ready to go to war. It is almost like we give them an order to go to die. If we cannot take care of their wives and children and they feel that they do not know what they are fighting for, that is dangerous.

"Do not let the military fall into that state. Today, if the military does not come out to take care of the country, if soldiers do not follow orders and do their duty, the country cannot survive."

Prayuth expressed strong disapproval over people who abused the monarchy. "No matter how they fight against each other, do not involve the monarchy. Let the high institution be above politics,'' he said. "Every baht and satang that he has been given, he donates it to his people, to the poor and the less privileged. The King has never sought or asked for any thing, as alleged,'' he said.

-- The Nation 2011-01-10

[geovalin]

Logger alleged killed by Thai border patrol

Sunday, 09 January 2011 20:58 Cheang Sokha

One Cambodian man was killed and another wounded after they were caught logging illegally across the border in Thailand, officials said Sunday, the latest in a spate of such shootings by Thai security forces.

Dy Phen, director of the border relations office in Banteay Meanchey province, said the pair were part of a group of seven loggers from Thma Puok district who came under fire from troops in Thailand’s Sa Kaeo province on Friday.

The group then bore the injured back to Cambodia without being apprehended or informing the Cambodian authorities, he added.

“The body was returned to the man’s family members on the same day as the shooting,” Dy Phen said. “They didn’t report to local authorities because they were afraid we would investigate their case and ask them who encouraged them to go to Thailand.”

Last month, Foreign Minister Hor Namhong met with his Thai counterpart Kasit Piromya, reportedly discussing the shootings of Cambodian loggers by Thai troops. Hor Namhong said following the meeting that Kasit had agreed that Thai authorities would be more lenient with trespassers.

On the same day as the talks, however, two Cambodians were killed by troops in Thailand’s Sisaket province. Cambodian officials claimed the loggers were attacked by the troops, though Thai Foreign Ministry deputy spokesman Thani Thongphakdi said the soldiers were acting in self-defence.

“They were fired upon by [the loggers’] guards, who were armed, so the patrol had fired back in defence,” Thani said at the time.

Following the incident, the government sent a diplomatic note to Thailand inquiring about the shooting.

“I will use serious words to emphasise that the shooting is a cruel act and is unbecoming of a civilised country,” Hor Namhong said at the time.

Chan Soveth, head of monitoring for local rights group Adhoc, said Sunday that his organisation had recorded 16 Cambodians killed by Thai soliders near the border in 2010, with 29 killed since tensions between the two countries broke out in 2008.

“They should use the law in these situations, not violence,” Chan Soveth said.

Thai officials could not be reached for comment Sunday.

http://www.phnompenhpost.com/index.php/2011010945960/National-news/logger-alleged-killed-by-thai-border-patrol.html

This information + the Surin critics against the Thai nationalists craziness (Bangkok Post) would deserve to be new topics.

Edited January 10, 2011 by geovalin

[jayjay0]

First he says we need modern demarcation:

Then he goes on to say

"Prayuth said the Army would not let the country lose territory and was ready to protect national sovereignty"

Sounds to me like he has his mind made up as to where the line belongs.

A very confused man

[millwall_fan]

Admittedly the boders were drawn up by the French in the days when elephants were the main means of transport, but these border disputes with Cambodia are spats engineered by the PAD and Yellow Shirts to divert attention from the real issue of povert and a lack of government spending to deal with it. . If Gen Prayuth is now using the issue as a 'shop window' to get more weapons, then one becomes even more suspicious about the motives for these border diputes. 1.5% of GDP is pretty standard for the region: The Phillipines spends 0.8%, Indonesia 1%, Cambodia, perhaps significantly spends1.1%, So 1.5% seems more than enough and of course the last time the Thai miiltary fired its weaponry in anger was at its own people, so maybe they have enough guns already

[mca]

Army chief Gen Prayuth Chan-Ocha has called for a new push to solve border disputes with Cambodia, saying the previous demarcation was carried out 300 years ago with low technology.

"Only elephants were used and no planes."

They didn't have the use of planes back then? I'd like to see the good general back that up with concrete evidence.

Edited January 10, 2011 by mca

[notime]

"If we can create faith, they are ready to go to war. It is almost like we give them an order to go to die."

This is so true about every FAITH. The General is making very correct observations: faith is a poison. It's a pity that he uses that fact to his immoral ends. "A very confused man" could be but I would rather paraphrase: "A very screwed-up man".

And by the way, how much the Buddhist teaching fit into shooting of unarmed civilians only because they strayed over the border? Do the Thai army really believe they are fighting Cambodian invasion of Thailand here? The people responsible for these killings should face justice .. only sorry that there isn't any of that in this country.

[Orac]

"If a land demarcation is clear, and the other side encroaches upon our territory, there will be shootings [in defence],'' he said.

Good job the cambodians aren't so bloodthirsty or Thailand would be short of an MP!

[Misterwhisper]

"Army chief Gen Prayuth Chan-Ocha has called for a new push to solve border disputes with Cambodia, saying the previous demarcation was carried out 300 years ago with low technology."

Did the general doze off during history lessons or is he simply ignorant of the fact that the current border line was only demarkated in the late 19th and early 20th centuries during the Indochina colonial period after Thailand had gradually lost substantial parts of its eastern provinces to France? Hardly "300 years" ago. What the general unwittingly implies is that the border between the two countries should be demarkated the way it was 300 years ago when half of modern Cambodia was under Siamese rule.

And of course the general promptly takes the opportunity of the border demarkation issue to lament the "lack of modern weapons and equipment [of the Thai military], saying the country spent only 1.6 per cent of GDP on arms purchases". Perhaps if the generals spent their allocated budget more wisely than wasting it on aircraft carriers that don't sail due to lack of spare parts and fuel, dirigibles that don't fly, Ukrainian second-hand APCs that are never delivered and submarines that are rather useless in the shallow waters of the Gulf of Siam, they might - just might - have enough funds available to upgrade the [comparatively cheap] personal equipment and handguns of their troops who, as the general admits, are stronger in numbers [but perhaps not as strong in fighting spirit] to keep notorious warrior nations like Cambodia off sacred Thai soil. Another viable way to save budget would of course be to dismiss 80% of the obscenely inflated general staff corps, many of whom seem to while away their time to retirement by playing golf, dozing off on their inactive posts or planning the next military hardware wishlist.

Meanwhile, the good general contradicts himself over the border issue by stressing that three basics for foreign policy - understanding, trust and equality - ought to be observed in order to "ensure smooth bilateral ties" while at the same time saying that "the Army would not let the country lose territory and was ready to protect national sovereignty". The latter statement is nothing short of meaning that only a border demarcation that favours Thailand's claims can be just.

[Scott]

Currently, Thailand is short an MP!

[ding]

Just please, no land mines.

[tmd5855]

Admittedly the boders were drawn up by the French in the days when elephants were the main means of transport, but these border disputes with Cambodia are spats engineered by the PAD and Yellow Shirts to divert attention from the real issue of povert and a lack of government spending to deal with it. . If Gen Prayuth is now using the issue as a 'shop window' to get more weapons, then one becomes even more suspicious about the motives for these border diputes. 1.5% of GDP is pretty standard for the region: The Phillipines spends 0.8%, Indonesia 1%, Cambodia, perhaps significantly spends1.1%, So 1.5% seems more than enough and of course the last time the Thai miiltary fired its weaponry in anger was at its own people, so maybe they have enough guns already

Yellow shirts causing problems?? Wash your mouth out?

No doubt the pro yellow TV members will say, "Not good Pad guys. It's those trouble making red's wearing yellow shirts, that is who they are"

Agree with what you say. ditto

[junglist]

Just please, no land mines.

Amen to that...

[Buchholz]

Admittedly the boders were drawn up by the French in the days when elephants were the main means of transport

If Gen Prayuth is now using the issue as a 'shop window' to get more weapons, then one becomes even more suspicious about the motives for these border diputes. 1.5% of GDP is pretty standard for the region: The Phillipines spends 0.8%, Indonesia 1%, Cambodia, perhaps significantly spends1.1%, So 1.5% seems more than enough

At 1.6%, it's still below average for ASEAN

ASEAN countries military expenditure as a percent of GDP

?.? (unreported) Myanmar

4.1 Singapore

3.9 Brunei

2.4 Vietnam

2.0 Malaysia

1.5 Thailand

1.1 Cambodia

1.0 Indonesia

0.8 Philippines

0.4 Laos

ASEAN average (not counting unreported Myanmar) = 1.9

On a world scale of military expenditure as a percent of GDP, Thailand ranks # 89.

The just-concluded Children's Day at Sattahip Navy Base reinforced the reality that much of the hardware is 1960's era and older technology. Dangerous to work with and woefully inadequate for its purpose.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Buchholz

[phiphidon]

The just-concluded Children's Day at Sattahip Navy Base reinforced the reality that much of the hardware is 1960's era and older technology. Dangerous to work with and woefully inadequate for its purpose.

Some of it seemed to work ok in April/May. But you're right it is dangerous to work with, just depends which end you're on.

[swerver]

"Army chief Gen Prayuth Chan-Ocha has called for a new push to solve border disputes with Cambodia, saying the previous demarcation was carried out 300 years ago with low technology."

Did the general doze off during history lessons or is he simply ignorant of the fact that the current border line was only demarkated in the late 19th and early 20th centuries during the Indochina colonial period after Thailand had gradually lost substantial parts of its eastern provinces to France? Hardly "300 years" ago. What the general unwittingly implies is that the border between the two countries should be demarkated the way it was 300 years ago when half of modern Cambodia was under Siamese rule.

And of course the general promptly takes the opportunity of the border demarkation issue to lament the "lack of modern weapons and equipment [of the Thai military], saying the country spent only 1.6 per cent of GDP on arms purchases". Perhaps if the generals spent their allocated budget more wisely than wasting it on aircraft carriers that don't sail due to lack of spare parts and fuel, dirigibles that don't fly, Ukrainian second-hand APCs that are never delivered and submarines that are rather useless in the shallow waters of the Gulf of Siam, they might - just might - have enough funds available to upgrade the [comparatively cheap] personal equipment and handguns of their troops who, as the general admits, are stronger in numbers [but perhaps not as strong in fighting spirit] to keep notorious warrior nations like Cambodia off sacred Thai soil. Another viable way to save budget would of course be to dismiss 80% of the obscenely inflated general staff corps, many of whom seem to while away their time to retirement by playing golf, dozing off on their inactive posts or planning the next military hardware wishlist.

Meanwhile, the good general contradicts himself over the border issue by stressing that three basics for foreign policy - understanding, trust and equality - ought to be observed in order to "ensure smooth bilateral ties" while at the same time saying that "the Army would not let the country lose territory and was ready to protect national sovereignty". The latter statement is nothing short of meaning that only a border demarcation that favours Thailand's claims can be just.

A civilian manager needed for military

The military of a country is in place to serve and protect the civilian population, not to control the people and the people’s elected government. Where people have the right to vote, they also have the right to have a say in the standard and operation of their military.

That is a democracy. Most civilians that pay the military’s wages through their taxes want an elected civilian representative as the “secretary of defense” to manage the military. Many people become alarmed every time they read the paper and it is “General this and General that” or “Colonel so and so” making decisions that affect every tax-paying civilian man, woman and child in any country. That sounds like a military command that answers to no civilian representative of the people.

Real security is being ignored

It is shocking to note that Thailand has so many generals and colonels. How can it justify spending huge amounts for such a top-heavy military?

There is a need to redefine national security. A top-heavy, expensive military establishment is, in a very real sense, a threat to genuine national security - the security of ordinary people against hunger, disease, illiteracy.

It would be very revealing if some detailed research is performed and the results reported on some comparative statistics on the number of generals in various countries of the world. With no doubt Thailand would rank at the top of the league of all nations in terms of the number of generals or equivalent posts in its military.

It would then be appropriate to ask the Thai military to justify why it needs such a top-heavy structure. I bet national security will only be an excuse, not a real justification.

If you must lie

Seventy years ago, in a country far from Thailand, the minister of information discovered that if you want the public to accept a lie, then tell it loud and tell it often. Thailand happens to be an ally of that goose stepping country and did adopted some of its ideas.

That minister of information is long gone, but it seems that his ideas are still around in the Thai political arena.

[kalbo123]

Thought today was the big day.. where are the 7?

No news? Still in jail.. waithing for to get bailed out..

Deals behind closed doors... what is going on?

[jayjay0]

Admittedly the boders were drawn up by the French in the days when elephants were the main means of transport

If Gen Prayuth is now using the issue as a 'shop window' to get more weapons, then one becomes even more suspicious about the motives for these border diputes. 1.5% of GDP is pretty standard for the region: The Phillipines spends 0.8%, Indonesia 1%, Cambodia, perhaps significantly spends1.1%, So 1.5% seems more than enough

At 1.6%, it's still below average for ASEAN

ASEAN countries military expenditure as a percent of GDP

?.? (unreported) Myanmar

4.1 Singapore

3.9 Brunei

2.4 Vietnam

2.0 Malaysia

1.5 Thailand

1.1 Cambodia

1.0 Indonesia

0.8 Philippines

0.4 Laos

ASEAN average (not counting unreported Myanmar) = 1.9

On a world scale of military expenditure as a percent of GDP, Thailand ranks # 89.

The just-concluded Children's Day at Sattahip Navy Base reinforced the reality that much of the hardware is 1960's era and older technology. Dangerous to work with and woefully inadequate for its purpose.

That's a lot of information to pick up at a children day affair. I thought the kids were suposed to have a good time not learn about military inadequacy. My kids might have liked it but they are in there 40's :cheesy:

[Buchholz]

Actually, the reality comment was just a reflection of the statistics posted above it (which were originally posted last August). It's a common distortion in many posts that needs to be accurately corrected in context to reflect real terms. Thailand is actually spending less than many of its neighbors and is spending less on their military than 88 other countries around the world.

The hardware on display at the Base reflected this below average expenditure with many pieces being decades old.

.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Buchholz

[dighambara]

"Army chief Gen Prayuth Chan-Ocha has called for a new push to solve border disputes with Cambodia, saying the previous demarcation was carried out 300 years ago with low technology."

Did the general doze off during history lessons or is he simply ignorant of the fact that the current border line was only demarkated in the late 19th and early 20th centuries during the Indochina colonial period after Thailand had gradually lost substantial parts of its eastern provinces to France? Hardly "300 years" ago. What the general unwittingly implies is that the border between the two countries should be demarkated the way it was 300 years ago when half of modern Cambodia was under Siamese rule.

And of course the general promptly takes the opportunity of the border demarkation issue to lament the "lack of modern weapons and equipment [of the Thai military], saying the country spent only 1.6 per cent of GDP on arms purchases". Perhaps if the generals spent their allocated budget more wisely than wasting it on aircraft carriers that don't sail due to lack of spare parts and fuel, dirigibles that don't fly, Ukrainian second-hand APCs that are never delivered and submarines that are rather useless in the shallow waters of the Gulf of Siam, they might - just might - have enough funds available to upgrade the [comparatively cheap] personal equipment and handguns of their troops who, as the general admits, are stronger in numbers [but perhaps not as strong in fighting spirit] to keep notorious warrior nations like Cambodia off sacred Thai soil. Another viable way to save budget would of course be to dismiss 80% of the obscenely inflated general staff corps, many of whom seem to while away their time to retirement by playing golf, dozing off on their inactive posts or planning the next military hardware wishlist.

Meanwhile, the good general contradicts himself over the border issue by stressing that three basics for foreign policy - understanding, trust and equality - ought to be observed in order to "ensure smooth bilateral ties" while at the same time saying that "the Army would not let the country lose territory and was ready to protect national sovereignty". The latter statement is nothing short of meaning that only a border demarcation that favours Thailand's claims can be just.

You seem to forget that France guaranteed the "Eastern Cambodian" Provinces would be returned to Siam, but maintained them as a "protectorate" until 1953, when, in a surprise move, France gave the area to Cambodia.

This means that Angkor was inside Siam for approximately 550 years, part of France for about 55 years and now a part of Cambodia for 58 years, not counting the years of contention between different Cambodian and Vietnamese factions (et.al.).

Edited January 10, 2011 by dighambara

[asiawatcher]

Admittedly the boders were drawn up by the French in the days when elephants were the main means of transport

If Gen Prayuth is now using the issue as a 'shop window' to get more weapons, then one becomes even more suspicious about the motives for these border diputes. 1.5% of GDP is pretty standard for the region: The Phillipines spends 0.8%, Indonesia 1%, Cambodia, perhaps significantly spends1.1%, So 1.5% seems more than enough

At 1.6%, it's still below average for ASEAN

ASEAN countries military expenditure as a percent of GDP

?.? (unreported) Myanmar

4.1 Singapore

3.9 Brunei

2.4 Vietnam

2.0 Malaysia

1.5 Thailand

1.1 Cambodia

1.0 Indonesia

0.8 Philippines

0.4 Laos

ASEAN average (not counting unreported Myanmar) = 1.9

On a world scale of military expenditure as a percent of GDP, Thailand ranks # 89.

The just-concluded Children's Day at Sattahip Navy Base reinforced the reality that much of the hardware is 1960's era and older technology. Dangerous to work with and woefully inadequate for its purpose.

Agree - let's just hope they never get to 'test' it.