Two Thai Detainees Face Additional Charge In Cambodia

[rubl]

A simple request. A reasonable request. But a request that is against the law.

Knowing nothing about Cambodian Law I'm still a bit surprised. I would assume the defendant can select any lawyer who is properly registered in the country and allowed to perform in court cases. As long as the Thai embassy provides a lawyer who is Cambodian and fulfills those requirements I would have thought him acceptable even by law.

How wrong one can be it seems.

PS how about Thailand? No such restriction? I hope I'm allowed a Thai lawyer and/or advisor who's fluent in my native language or any other language I happen to consider myself sufficiently fluent in ?

Edited January 12, 2011 by rubl

[webfact]

Two Thais in Cambodia court on spying charges

PHNOM PENH, January 12, 2011 (AFP) - A Thai nationalist activist and his aide appeared in a Cambodian court Wednesday to face spying charges in a border case that could rekindle diplomatic tensions.

The two are part of a group of seven Thai nationals -- including lawmaker Panich Vikitsreth of the ruling Democrat Party -- who were arrested in Cambodia on December 29 on charges of illegal entry and trespassing on a military area.

Veera Somkwamkid -- a former leader of the "Yellow Shirt" movement -- and his secretary have also been charged with gathering information that could affect national defence, a serious offence punishable by up to 10 years in jail.

The two other counts carry a possible sentence of up to 18 months in prison.

"We called them to the court to be questioned regarding the additional charge," judge Ke Sakhan, deputy director of Phnom Penh Municipal Court, told AFP after the pair's brief court appearance.

All seven Thais are being held at a prison in the capital. The court is expected to respond to a bail request by the end of the week.

"No trial date has been set so far because we are in the process of getting testimonies from witnesses," said Ke Sakhan.

Thai officials have acknowledged that the seven were on Cambodian territory when arrested.

Despite appeals from Thailand, Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen has refused to intervene in the case, saying the matter was in the hands of the court.

Cambodia and Thailand have long been at odds over their border, which is not fully demarcated, partly because it is littered with landmines left over from decades of war in Cambodia.

The current crisis threatens to reverse a recent thaw in relations between Hun Sen and his Thai counterpart Abhisit Vejjajiva following a series of meetings on the sidelines of international and regional summits late last year.

The Yellow Shirts, who claim allegiance to the throne, are powerful players in Thailand's colour-coded politics.

They seized two Bangkok airports in late 2008, leaving more than 300,000 travellers stranded.

They are backed by the Bangkok-based elite and are the arch-rivals of the mostly poor and working class "Red Shirts", who held a mass rally in Bangkok in April and May of last year that erupted in violence.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-01-12

[Buchholz]

A simple request. A reasonable request. But a request that is against the law.

Hence, the legal request made under the law for a simple and reasonable exemption.

[atyclb]

The magnificent 7 getting a taste of Thai logic via proxy.

[Credo]

There aren't exemptions to laws. I am sure they can have a transcript of the interpreters statements if they want.

[atyclb]

As one the worlds leading corrupt countries, Cambo, many would say exemptions to laws are granted on a daily basis. I think there is an additional agenda beyond trespassing.

There aren't exemptions to laws. I am sure they can have a transcript of the interpreters statements if they want.

[Piengrudee]

Hun Sen should show some mercy. After all we are neighbors.

[whybother]

Hun Sen should show some mercy. After all we are neighbors.

Have you been on holidays?

I've missed you're one liners .... NOT.

[Buchholz]

There aren't exemptions to laws. I am sure they can have a transcript of the interpreters statements if they want.

There aren't exemptions to laws?

There's chockablock exemptions to laws.

There's pallet loads of exemptions to laws.

And the Thai Embassy has said they plan to file one and the Court will decide upon it.

.

Edited January 12, 2011 by Buchholz

[random]

To hopefully put an end to random's seemingly endless postulations about the potential for the espionage charges to have emanated from some other unknown incident at an unknown location at an unknown time, rather than the common sense that should tell most people that the charges were over this incident AKA "additional" charges versus "new" charges...

Veera's interrogation was completed in one and a half hours after which he was escorted back to jail and Ratree was then interrogated by the court.

Her interrogation completed at close to noon and she was also immediately brought back to jail.

The charge of espionage carries a jail term of five to ten years and it may also mean that Veera and Ratree will not have bail granted.

Cambodian officials claim they found a hidden camera in a shirt button and a sound recorder on their bodies.

TAN Network - January 12, 2011

http://www.thailando...?DataID=1039516

so you did not know this when you were spouting your nonsense, I stand by what I said, at that time you had NO idea what he charge was, it was pure speculation on your part and you got lucky with your guess,

[random]

OR...

just spend a few hours reading and watching on the web to discover what the Cambodian armed forces consist of.

It's pretty easy, because....

they really don't have anything that warrants being secretive about.

But that doesn't stop them from charging an elderly man and a lone, thin woman with spying on that which is not worth spying on.

.

Well if they did indeed have the pinhole camera and they were indeed in cambodia, on a military base, then of course they should be charged with spying and good riddance to them, you spout so much crap next you will tell us the cambodians entered bangkok and arrested them at their homes.

It is what it is, let the cambodian court deal with it, just like you want the thai courts to deal with the reds, no doubt neither will be fair and unbiased but ho hum,they chose to go into cambodia, some of them for the second time, and now they can face the penalty. if you give such a dam_n go and visit them.

As for being an elderly man and a lone thin woman (although she was not alone) I was not aware you had to be of a certain age to be a criminal, I could just imagine using that defence in court, "sorry your honour, i am an old man" It would get laughed out of court, and as old man he should know better you are getting more comical the more desperate you get to defend all things Thai, or rather all things yellow, them pesky poor thias dont count., no point ever denying your yellowness again.

Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about law will know that an attempt to commit a crime is still a crime. Whether they garnered information or not the intent was there.

Good riddance to bad rubbish

Edited January 12, 2011 by random

[Buchholz]

To hopefully put an end to random's seemingly endless postulations about the potential for the espionage charges to have emanated from some other unknown incident at an unknown location at an unknown time, rather than the common sense that should tell most people that the charges were over this incident AKA "additional" charges versus "new" charges...

Veera's interrogation was completed in one and a half hours after which he was escorted back to jail and Ratree was then interrogated by the court.

Her interrogation completed at close to noon and she was also immediately brought back to jail.

The charge of espionage carries a jail term of five to ten years and it may also mean that Veera and Ratree will not have bail granted.

Cambodian officials claim they found a hidden camera in a shirt button and a sound recorder on their bodies.

TAN Network - January 12, 2011

http://www.thailando...?DataID=1039516

so you did not know this when you were spouting your nonsense, I stand by what I said, at that time you had NO idea what he charge was, it was pure speculation on your part and you got lucky with your guess,

hahahaha... what you call "nonsense" and "lucky",

most would, as stated, consider it "common sense" that the espionage charges were related to the recent trespassing incident.

That was clearly evident to most when the "additional" charges first surfaced.

But thanks anyway for amusing us with your humorous postulations.

If I was exceptionally cruel, I would add a, "I told you so"... but I'm not, so I won't say, "I told you so"

.

[Buchholz]

OR...

just spend a few hours reading and watching on the web to discover what the Cambodian armed forces consist of.

It's pretty easy, because....

they really don't have anything that warrants being secretive about.

Well if they did indeed have the pinhole camera and they were indeed in cambodia, on a military base, then of course they should be charged with spying

You should spend a minutia of the time I mentioned above to help yourself understand the difference between your ideas of a Western-style "military "base" and what the Cambodians refer to when they speak of a "military zone."

There's a world of difference.

and good riddance to them, you spout so much crap next you will tell us the cambodians entered bangkok and arrested them at their homes.

I spout? This coming from someone repeatedly attempting to go against the grain of common sense and postulate that the charges were unrelated to the trespassing incident.

- remaining miscellaneous inflammatory rhetoric and name calling snipped -

[gk10002000]

I don't know all the facts or the circumstances but it sure seems like a strange plan or no plan that they had. Have only heard bits and pieces of how they allegedly phoned in their position, made some statements before being apprehended etc. My one comment is the Yellow shirt fellow. If he was trying some sort of political action and hoping to bring attention to his yellow shirtedness or whatever, he may have miscalculated the influence of the yellow shirts. It sounds like Cambodia is not too interested in his particular Thai status and mr Veer may be a political football all the while enjoying the company and lodging and fine dining I am sure the Cambodian jail or holding facility can offer.

[EyesWideOpen]

Can they also be charged with stupidity ???   :jap:

A strange incident to be sure. As for the poster who thinks the Cambodian military is a few guys in worn out uniforms wondering around, he would be wrong. I just came back last week from a visit to the Preah Vihear temple from the Cambodian side. And yes I had a  visa............

There is a massive amount of military buildup in the area, with bases all along the road leading up to the temple. So looks to me like the Cambodian government thinks Thailand is going to invade...

As for Thailand demanding some sort of swift justice, that is truly a laugh. Cambodia should reply back that they will prosecute them at the exact speed as the policeman in Pai who killed the tourist. Three years on since the murder, and nothing has happened.....

[EyesWideOpen]

Can they also be charged with stupidity ???  

A strange incident to be sure. As for the poster who thinks the Cambodian military in the area is a few guys in worn out uniforms wondering around, he would be wrong. I just came back last week from a visit to the Preah Vihear temple from the Cambodian side. And yes I had a  visa............There is a massive amount of military buildup in the area, with bases all along the road leading up to the temple. So looks to me like the Cambodian government thinks Thailand is going to invade...As for Thailand demanding some sort of swift justice, that is truly a laugh. Cambodia should reply back that they will prosecute them at the exact speed as the policeman in Pai who killed the tourist. Three years on since the murder, and nothing has happened.....

[Piengrudee]

Serve them right.

[Buchholz]

As for the poster who thinks the Cambodian military is a few guys in worn out uniforms wondering around, he would be wrong. I just came back last week from a visit to the Preah Vihear temple from the Cambodian side.

There is a massive amount of military buildup in the area, with bases all along the road leading up to the temple. So looks to me like the Cambodian government thinks Thailand is going to invade...

What is the Cambodian military build-up at Sa Kaew's Kok Sung district, which is the area we are talking about, like?

[gatorsoft]

Bucholz: I find it hard to understand your argument (other than a very clear bias). You suggest that espionage charges are absurd and then proceed to post information that the accused had espionage devices on their persons. Of course what they were allegedly spying on is questionable at best, but trespassing into another nation while using espionage devices is begging to be charged with espionage. Your argument that it was an old man and a lone thin woman are equally absurd. Now who is being illogical? Age and weight determine what the actions and intentions are? You started out this thread having some credibility and digressed into slapstick satire.

The simple truth is that they screwed up. They either overplayed their hand assuming that the Thai government would bail them out, or perhaps expecting to bribe their way out, or perhaps wanting exactly what has happened. The story hasn't finished yet, so it remains to be seen how things will be manipulated for the benefit of the yellows. Perhaps it is time for some dcotored evidence to suggest that Hun Sen has been acting under the direction of Thaksin and the redshirts all along.

[Piengrudee]

Why would any non-spy attached a button camera and sound recording device to her body, if she did not intend to use it?

[Buchholz]

Bucholz: I find it hard to understand your argument (other than a very clear bias). You suggest that espionage charges are absurd and then proceed to post information that the accused had espionage devices on their persons. Of course what they were allegedly spying on is questionable at best, but trespassing into another nation while using espionage devices is begging to be charged with espionage. Your argument that it was an old man and a lone thin woman are equally absurd. Now who is being illogical? Age and weight determine what the actions and intentions are? You started out this thread having some credibility and digressed into slapstick satire.

The simple truth is that they screwed up. They either overplayed their hand assuming that the Thai government would bail them out, or perhaps expecting to bribe their way out, or perhaps wanting exactly what has happened. The story hasn't finished yet, so it remains to be seen how things will be manipulated for the benefit of the yellows. Perhaps it is time for some dcotored evidence to suggest that Hun Sen has been acting under the direction of Thaksin and the redshirts all along.

What I posted was not a definitive certainty, but merely a claim.

Cambodian officials claim they found a hidden camera in a shirt button and a sound recorder on their bodies.

A claim which seems difficult to believe given they obviously had regular cameras in full view recording the event (the source of all the videos posted) all along.

A claim which significantly raises the stakes as well.

I agree that the story remains to unfold, but I suspect the manipulation for the benefit of Hun Sen is as great as for anyone else.

[Credo]

There aren't exemptions to laws.  I am sure they can have a transcript of the interpreters statements if they want.

There aren't exemptions to laws?

There's chockablock exemptions to laws.

There's pallet loads of exemptions to laws.

And the Thai Embassy has said they plan to file one and the Court will decide upon it.

.

I doubt you are correct.  Like most courts, however, both the defense and the prosecution have to agree on certain things.  I would think that the interpreter would be one, but I very much doubt the Thai embassy will be allowed to pick an interpreter that the court didn't find acceptable.  

Veera's age isn't a factor, it's whether or not he can  reasonably be viewed as a threat to the national security of Cambodia.  He belongs to an organization whose stand on the border issue is counter to Cambodia's interest.  That, and this being his second offense, is probably the basis of the charges.  Now it's up to the court to decide whether his offenses rise to the level of espionage.  

Personally, I don't think he was 'spying.'  In this context, you spy for a government.  This group isn't the government.  He may be viewed as a threat to national security, however.  

[webfact]

Cambodian court grants bail to Democrat MP Panich and Narumol,taken from prison; not allowed to return to Thailand in order to fight charges /MCOT

[webfact]

Secretary to FM Insists Cambodia to Grant Bail for Panich

INN news reported that Chavanond Intarakomalyasut, secretary to Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya, insists the Cambodian government has agreed to grant bail for Democrat MP Panich Vikritseth and one of the Thai detainees, Naruemol Chitwarattana.

-- Tan Network 2011-01-13

[Buchholz]

I doubt you are correct.

Regarding what? That there are exemptions to any number of laws or that the Embassy is requesting one?

Both are easily verifiable.

Like most courts, however, both the defense and the prosecution have to agree on certain things. I would think that the interpreter would be one, but I very much doubt the Thai embassy will be allowed to pick an interpreter that the court didn't find acceptable.

I agree that they probably won't be allowed to pick one that the court didn't find acceptable, but I would wonder how difficult it would be to find one that was acceptable. Perfectly competent translators can't be difficult to find, particularly when neighboring countries are involved.

That, and this being his second offense, is probably the basis of the charges.

So 2 trespassing charges equates to 1 espionage charge?

Now it's up to the court to decide whether his offenses rise to the level of espionage.

Personally, I don't think he was 'spying.'

We agree there.

Edited January 13, 2011 by thaiphoon
Quote repaired. Pls take care when splitting a post to make sure the 'header lines' are included in all sections.

[Credo]

As far as the 'spying' equipment they allegedly had, my best guess is that they were spying on the Thai government.  I have a feeling that one wrong move and a few wrong words would have meant trouble for the Democrat MP.  He was in a Catch 22.  If the Cambodians didn't get him, I am sure the Patriot Network would be hot on his tail.  

[webfact]

LANGUISHING THAIS

Panich and Naruemon freed on bail

By The Nation

Both are ordered to stay in Cambodia pending trial

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on Thursday said he is informed of Cambodian court's decision to grant bail for two of seven Thais being detained in Phnom Penh on illegal entry into Cambodia.

One of the two is Democrat MP Panich Vikitsetr while another is Naruemon Jitararattana.

"I already talked to Khun Panich by phone. I ask him to take care of the rest," Abhisit said.

He insisted that the government will give its best efforts to help all the group.

The Cambodian court agreed to bail out Panich and Naruemon on the condition that they stay in Cambodia and report themselves to the authority concerned.

Cambodia has charged the seven Thais of illegal entry into Cambodia who were arrested on December 29 while inspecting a site in Sa Kaew's Kok Sung district. It claimed that they were on the Cambodian soil in the time of arrest.

The group told the Court to defend charged with illegal entry last week that they entered Cambodia by accident.

Two of the seven; Veera Somkwamkit, leader of Thai Patriots Network and the network's secretary; Ratree Pipattanapaiboon, were also charged with spying.

-- The Nation 2011-01-13

[webfact]

Cambodia grants bail to Thai lawmaker

PHNOM PENH, January 13, 2011 (AFP) - A Thai ruling party politician who was among seven Thais charged with illegally entering Cambodia has been granted bail along with one other member of the group, their lawyer said Thursday.

Panich Vikitsreth of the Democrat Party and Narumol Jitrawarattana, described as a female vendor, are now staying at the Thai embassy in the Cambodian capital as they await their trial for which a date has yet to be set.

"We asked the court to release the seven Thai people, but the court only allowed two to be released on bail," Ros Aun, a Cambodian attorney for the group, told AFP. Each paid a bail of one million riel ($250).

The other five Thai nationals are still being held at a Phnom Penh prison, Ros Aun added, and Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said his government would continue to push for their release from jail.

The group was arrested on December 29 on charges of illegal entry and trespassing on a military area, which carry a maximum combined sentence of 18 months in prison.

The case has strained diplomatic ties between the neighbouring countries, long at odds over their border.

Panich told the court last week that he had crossed the disputed border by accident.

"He said he came (to the border area) because Thai people claimed it is their land. He said he was walking without knowing that he was entering Cambodian territory and was captured by the authorities," Ros Aun said.

Two of the seven Thais, Veera Somkwamkid -- a former leader of the nationalist "Yellow Shirt" movement -- and his secretary, were slapped with an additional charge of gathering information that could affect national defence, a serious offence punishable by up to 10 years in jail.

Thai officials have acknowledged that the seven were on Cambodian territory when arrested.

Despite appeals from Thailand, Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen has refused to intervene in the case, saying the matter was in the hands of the court.

The Thailand-Cambodia border is not fully demarcated, partly because it is littered with landmines left over from decades of war in Cambodia.

The current crisis threatens to reverse a recent thaw in relations between Hun Sen and Abhisit following a series of meetings on the sidelines of international and regional summits late last year.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-01-13

[Thai at Heart]

Cambodia grants bail to Thai lawmaker

PHNOM PENH, January 13, 2011 (AFP) - A Thai ruling party politician who was among seven Thais charged with illegally entering Cambodia has been granted bail along with one other member of the group, their lawyer said Thursday.

Panich Vikitsreth of the Democrat Party and Narumol Jitrawarattana, described as a female vendor, are now staying at the Thai embassy in the Cambodian capital as they await their trial for which a date has yet to be set.

"We asked the court to release the seven Thai people, but the court only allowed two to be released on bail," Ros Aun, a Cambodian attorney for the group, told AFP. Each paid a bail of one million riel ($250).

The other five Thai nationals are still being held at a Phnom Penh prison, Ros Aun added, and Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said his government would continue to push for their release from jail.

The group was arrested on December 29 on charges of illegal entry and trespassing on a military area, which carry a maximum combined sentence of 18 months in prison.

The case has strained diplomatic ties between the neighbouring countries, long at odds over their border.

Panich told the court last week that he had crossed the disputed border by accident.

"He said he came (to the border area) because Thai people claimed it is their land. He said he was walking without knowing that he was entering Cambodian territory and was captured by the authorities," Ros Aun said.

Two of the seven Thais, Veera Somkwamkid -- a former leader of the nationalist "Yellow Shirt" movement -- and his secretary, were slapped with an additional charge of gathering information that could affect national defence, a serious offence punishable by up to 10 years in jail.

Thai officials have acknowledged that the seven were on Cambodian territory when arrested.

Despite appeals from Thailand, Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen has refused to intervene in the case, saying the matter was in the hands of the court.

The Thailand-Cambodia border is not fully demarcated, partly because it is littered with landmines left over from decades of war in Cambodia.

The current crisis threatens to reverse a recent thaw in relations between Hun Sen and Abhisit following a series of meetings on the sidelines of international and regional summits late last year.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-01-13

Lets see if these two hang around long enough to face trial. If it was that easy to get into Cambodia, I am sure there are plenty of ways out. I would presume they are under some kind of house arrest, otherwise, couldn't they just hi-tail it to the Thai embassy?

Granting bail to people who have every desire and probable means to abscond seems to be a very common occurrence in this part of the world. I wonder if Panich can suddenly find a passion for a sporting event somewhere in the world and ask if the Cambodians will let him go see it.

[Buchholz]

Each paid a bail of one million riel ($250).