Charging System Too Slow

[Cobrabiker]

My charging system is very slow, not able to sustain two 55w headlights. A year ago mechanic A told me it could be coil problem, might need to recoil, then mechanic B said coil ok but rectifier not good, so I changed to a Honda rectifier which he said could last longer. After he changed it, I noticed the power output when rev at different rpm was about the same as my old one. And recently, the charging is getting lesser, mechanic B checked and told me that the rectifier needed to be replaced, I don't quite beleive now, so I hope to get some answer from the forum

The charge at about 1200 rpm is 13.5 to 13.9v, but above 2000 rpm & 4000 & up it will drop down to around 12.8, I thought at higher rpm, the charging should be higher, but mine is opposite. I feel it could be the coil, but that is just my guess.

My bike is a Yamaha fazer 1000, 12 apmhere batt.

[husskydog]

Not sure what you mean by the coil, i presume you mean the stator?

Taken from the fazer 1000 2001 workshop manual....

Minimum open-circuit voltage of battery

12.8 V or more at 20 deg C

Charging voltage across battery

14 V at 5,000 r/min

Stator coil

Stator coil resistance

0.27-0.33 ohms at 20 deg C measured white to white across all three..

Also i would add, disconnect the stator plug and start the bike and measure across all three white leads on the stator end of the plug WITH YOUR METER ON AC VOLTS not dc volts. i dont know what the value in ac volts is for the fazer but they should all be the same....

good luck

[Cobrabiker]

Hi Husky, I don't know what coil also, but I think it is what you have mentioned, stator coil. I am going to Bkk to get it checked, I will take note of it. If it is the coil problem, do you have any idea how much to get it recoil? Are there any competent shops here in Pattaya to do the job?

[husskydog]

Hi Husky, I don't know what coil also, but I think it is what you have mentioned, stator coil. I am going to Bkk to get it checked, I will take note of it. If it is the coil problem, do you have any idea how much to get it recoil? Are there any competent shops here in Pattaya to do the job?

Sorry i`m in the boonies, no idea..

more tech links and fault finding..

http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/known-issues/common-tech-issue?model=FZ-1%20%2801-05%29&cat=STREET

follow these links for more detailed issues...cheers

[Cobrabiker]

Hi Hussky, thanks for the info and links, they are very useful.

[BigBikeBKK]

Bit odd they'd put a Honda rectifier in your Yammie, but TiT...

FWIW Honda rectifiers have a reputation for not lasting long in tropical heat.

My two satang- bring your bike to the Yamaha Riders Club Big Bike shop behind the Esplanade Mall and get it fixed RIGHT by trained mechanics who will use genuine Yamaha parts.

Trusting your Fazer to a mechanic who starts using Honda parts is a recipe for trouble IMO...

Good luck!

T

[Cobrabiker]

I just watched a youtube clip, it says if the voltage is 12.3 or below or 14.5 volts and above, the rectifier is bad, so it seems now that my stator coil needs replacement.

[Cobrabiker]

Hi Tony, the last time I wanted a new engine oil cap, the staff searched high and low and could not confirm on the part's number, then later called & told gotta wait for 3 weeks, but I went to 3rd road and got it right away. Another time I wanted a oil filter, they told me even Bkk no stock, gotta wait for 2 months, so I went to Kawa dealer and bought it right on the spot. Frankly speaking, I don't know what type of dealer is this, that pisses me off, I have no idea whether they have the skill or experience to sort it out, anyway I almost forgot about them, and the 2 times I went, I only saw them fixing small bikes, let me check it out whether they are competent to troubleshoot this problem or not.

[JWJ]

I've tinkers with motors a bit in the past.

Has someone checked and cleaned all the electric connectors? I always start there.

Is the battery in good condition?

Edited January 12, 2011 by JWJ

[Cobrabiker]

Cleaning the contacts may help a bit but can't solve the problem, but I think it is most likely the stator, as you see it is giving out enough charge at idle but when reving at 5000rpm, it falls short of the 14v specs. After doing some search on the internet, I think most likely it is the stator.

Here is some useful guide from another forum, here is the link:

This mod applies equally to most modern bikes regardless of the marque/model.

The defining factor regardless of motorcycle brand/year/model is that your bike has the discreet 3-phase Stator/Generator and Rectifier/Regulator arrangement

As a preliminary, acknowledgements due to OldnDumb and CLB for their previous inputs on this subject.

This is about replacing the standard equipment Regulator/Rectifier with a more efficient component. You can do this in event of failure rather than replace with the same stock component, or you can even do as a preventive measure if desired.

As a prologue, let me introduce a basic troubleshooting process to determine whether you have a charging system failure.

A good Multi-meter is a pre-requisite.

Record your battery voltage under the follow conditions

1) Ignition off, unloaded battery.

2) Ignition on, headlights on, not running

3) Bike started, running at idle

For condition 1, should be at least in the high 12.x range if fully charged.

In condition 2, your voltage should not drop much below 12.0 at worst. (It may continue to drop – hopefully slowly! – as your lights will be discharging it. However this should be a slow decline)

If it does drop immediately into the 11’s, your battery is insufficiently charged – if it was just charged from a battery charger however, then it indicates your battery no longer has sufficient capacity to retain charge/supply current to load and should be replaced.

Condition 3 is what we are most interested in with respect to charging capability.

Voltage should be at least in the 13’s at all engine rpm. You may detect it will fall off slightly as you raise engine rpm. This is not atypical performance. A simple mod that can enhance your charging voltage to the battery can be achieved by this modification outlined in this thread. That should give you performance in the 14V+ range.

What if you have less than 13V?

First thing to check is the fuse in the charging circuit. Ask on the forum for your particular model which one you should check if in doubt.

Next, examine the wires and connectors between the stator output and the R/R input (three wire harness and connectors) – are these charred/melted due to excessive heating? This is fairly common result of poor connection between the mating terminals. See later in thread for examples of this issue & suggested replacements.

A ‘cold’ resistance check for shorted diode/SCR:

Unplug both input & output plugs from R/R;

With your meter set to read resistance (use a diode test if the your multi-meter has one), test from each pin of the three pin plug, to both the red & black wired pins of the 4-pin plug; NONE of these should read short circuit (zero resistance); depending which way you bias the test leads, you may get some reading (from the forward bias of the component) but it must absolutely not be a short. If you see a short on any of these readings the R/R is defective.

Next, do a resistance check on the stator (check at the cable connector going back towards the stator itself).

Measure between the three respective combinations of the three pins:

1-2

2-3

3-1

This time each of these should measure almost short circuit (very low resistance in order or about 1 ohm)

Also check from any one pin to the engine ground terminal – this should not read any indication – maximum resistance or open-circuit.

If you read ‘short’ in that last test, then your stator is bad.

Check the AC voltage output from the stator with engine running:

Leave stator disconnected from the R/R and start the engines.

With meter set to read AC Volts check

1-2

2-3

3-1

All three should be the same value – any significant difference of one reading will indicate a bad phase and the stator is probably defective.

At idle this should be ~ 25V and rise to ~ 70V at 5K rpm. I almost hesitate to use absolute numbers here as this can be different between models and test equipment.

What you are looking for is same between phases and like increase on each phase as rpm increases.

If any of the above tests raises suspicion, pull the cover & inspect the stator. It is simple to do and can set your mind at ease by seeing what it looks like. Hopefully NOT with 1/3 of it a black charred mess!

If you have to replace the stator and R/R, especially because of a shorted R/R and excess current drain, be especially careful to ensure that your wiring has not been compromised. Replace any cable &/or connector plug that is not in optimum condition.

Now on to the alternative R/R replacement

- as aforementioned this is a good preventive upgrade measure with a better component, not necessarily limited to replacement on failure. Either way, process is the same.

Best widely available R/R on the market today is the Shindengen FH012AA used on the late (06+) Yamaha FJR, 07+ Yamaha R1 among others

What makes it better is that is a MOSFET controlled device rather than the crude SCR shunt type that is on most bikes until recently and also is a 50A rated device.

MUCH better voltage regulation and runs cooler too due to more efficient devices and control circuitry.

The SCR shunt type consumes more energy in the Regulator itself than the bike is using and dumps a ton of current into the heatsink (feel yours & just see how hot those things run!!!! - don't touch it - you'll burn yourself - seriously!) The problem is exacerbated because their efficiency goes even lower when they get HOT so it's a vicious circle. Heat is the number 1 killer of these devices.

Incidentally its a misconception that shunt type work harder with increased load i.e. higher-wattage lights, heated vests etc - actually, the higher the load on the output, the less work the shunt regulator does in dumping that excess energy and will actually run cooler!!

The FET has extremely low resistance in conducting state and this results in a lower dissipated power from the device while conducting load current, as opposed to the SCR which shunts the maximum current across a significant volt drop, resulting in a higher dissipated power - and resulting temperature, much more so than the FET device.

You can install this unit on your Triumph Sprint, S3, Daytona, TT600, Tiger; Suzuki TL, SV 650, SV1K;

or indeed ANY bike that has discreet three-phase stator and R/R arrangement.

[thaicbr]

"Cleaning the contacts may help a bit but can't solve the problem"

You may be surprised, the contacts may be burnt slightly.. i had a Cbr250 that had similar problems to yours.. it turned out one of the connecter plugs had overheated and burnt out.

As the guy said check them 1st..

Also i think Tony is talking about the Yamaha Big Bike shop. not a Yamaha square.

[BigBikeBKK]

Also i think Tony is talking about the Yamaha Big Bike shop. not a Yamaha square.

Yep, that's what I said:

Yamaha Riders Club Big Bike shop behind the Esplanade Mall

Bangkok

TYM Marketing Co.,Ltd.Yamaha Rider’s Club Branch

55/61 Ratchadapisek Rd.,

Dindang, Dindang, Bangkok 10400

Tel : (662) 640-6990-1 Fax : (662) 640-6993-4

[katabeachbum]

"Cleaning the contacts may help a bit but can't solve the problem"

You may be surprised, the contacts may be burnt slightly.. i had a Cbr250 that had similar problems to yours.. it turned out one of the connecter plugs had overheated and burnt out.

As the guy said check them 1st..

Also i think Tony is talking about the Yamaha Big Bike shop. not a Yamaha square.

as OPs charging never exceeds 13,9 Volt, I would assume 3 errors

lousy contacts, its 10 years old. Cheap fix, pick apart, clean,brass brush, install with Vaseline. If you now at any point recieve 14,0-14,45 volt measured on battery, you could be ok.

If you exceede 14,45 Volt on battery, or you never reach 14,0 Volt, stator and rectifier. using Honda parts shouldnt be ap problem as all japs use Denso parts

according to Husky Dogs post, 5000rpm should provide 14,0V on this bike, which is actually to little to keep your battery happy, but not uncommon. A monthly over night C-Tec charger can compensate for 14,0V insufficient bike charging

and dont get a new battery before charging is sorted. to little isnt good, to much is a killer. 14,0-14,45V is good, measured on battery

[VocalNeal]

Cobra,

if you can't get it fixed in Thailand. RM Stator is the place to go. http://www.rmstator.com/en/index.htm

No new one but they will fix it for you.

Might be worth an email?

Or

http://www.fz6-forum.com/forum/fz6-mods/27460-increasing-stator-output-rewinding-stator.html

Edited January 12, 2011 by VocalNeal

[RusticCharm]

I just watched a youtube clip, it says if the voltage is 12.3 or below or 14.5 volts and above, the rectifier is bad, so it seems now that my stator coil needs replacement.

Yeah, same here. Lately my bike has been slow to start. Turned out my rectifier thingy was dodgy (battery often reading below 12V) and had caused the stator coil thingymajig to burn out.

DucatiThailand were excellent. :jap:

I had to buy a new rectifier (bike out of warranty) but they were kind enough to give me a coil from a crashed bike, saving me a fair bit of dough as apparantly these things are pricey.

Edited January 12, 2011 by RusticCharm

[katabeachbum]

I just watched a youtube clip, it says if the voltage is 12.3 or below or 14.5 volts and above, the rectifier is bad, so it seems now that my stator coil needs replacement.

Yeah, same here. Lately my bike has been slow to start. Turned out my rectifier thingy was dodgy (battery often reading below 12V) and had caused the stator coil thingymajig to burn out.

DucatiThailand were excellent. :jap:

I had to buy a new rectifier (bike out of warranty) but they were kind enough to give me a coil from a crashed bike, saving me a fair bit of dough as apparantly these things are pricey.

Magneti Marelli has always been pricey

[RusticCharm]

Magneti Marelli has always been pricey

Head mech Jay showed it to me but I didn't see the name on it. It did have "bloody expensive to replace" written all over it though. 

[Cobrabiker]

Yamaha Riders Club Big Bike shop behind the Esplanade Mall, is this in Bkk? Not the one in Pattaya? This morning just went to Yamaha dealer in Pattaya, they don't even have the digital meter to test, checked it and said normal as long as it doesn't drop below 12V. Then went to another on sukumvit, I see the way he tested it and he immediately said it was the regulator, I told him no, maybe the dynamo (stator coil) then he said could be also, and ask me to do both together, not one mechanic in Pattaya can pin point where the problem is.

Hi Alan, the contacts of the regulator were quite badly burnt, they were changed a month ago, and still the same, I will take note and get all the contacts check this time.

Hi Katabeachbum, I charged the batt overnight, now at idling, it is 13 to 14 volts, but rev it up, it is still the same, the voltage drops to around 12.8, so it seems to be that the rectifier is working, as it neither falls below 12.3 or above 14.8v.

I am going to Bkk tomorrow to get it checked, This guy close to bagna central, at si nakarin road the place called "row hoki row", have any idea, is he good?

[BigBikeBKK]

Yamaha Riders Club Big Bike shop behind the Esplanade Mall, is this in Bkk? Not the one in Pattaya? This morning just went to Yamaha dealer in Pattaya, they don't even have the digital meter to test, checked it and said normal as long as it doesn't drop below 12V. Then went to another on sukumvit, I see the way he tested it and he immediately said it was the regulator, I told him no, maybe the dynamo (stator coil) then he said could be also, and ask me to do both together, not one mechanic in Pattaya can pin point where the problem is.

Hi Alan, the contacts of the regulator were quite badly burnt, they were changed a month ago, and still the same, I will take note and get all the contacts check this time.

Hi Katabeachbum, I charged the batt overnight, now at idling, it is 13 to 14 volts, but rev it up, it is still the same, the voltage drops to around 12.8, so it seems to be that the rectifier is working, as it neither falls below 12.3 or above 14.8v.

I am going to Bkk tomorrow to get it checked, This guy close to bagna central, at si nakarin road the place called "row hoki row", have any idea, is he good?

Funny you keep rolling the dice with these know-nothing mechanics and now you're headed to Bangkok to roll the dice again instead of taking your Fazer to the one shop* that has certified mechanics with the tools, training and parts to fix it... Oh well, as our hosts like to say, "Up to you!" :jap:

* FWIW there are plenty of shops in Bangkok that ought to be able to fix this for you, but considering the terribly luck you've had thus far I have to recommend you take it to Yamaha- their mechanics are top notch and their shop rate is really quite reasonable.

Good Luck!

[Garry]

My battery was showing 12.7 nominal voltage after I unplugged my trickle charger before this mornings' ride. On the ride, the voltage reading went to a maximum of 14.2. Which tells me all is good with my charging system.

[katabeachbum]

My battery was showing 12.7 nominal voltage after I unplugged my trickle charger before this mornings' ride. On the ride, the voltage reading went to a maximum of 14.2. Which tells me all is good with my charging system.

charging seems good

if battery is still 12,7 after a week of no charge, battery seems good too, and no el leaks while bike not used

[Cobrabiker]

Thanks Bigbikebkk, I will definitely keep that as an option in future. If you do not stay in Bkk you will know why I am doing all this running around, it is the convenience, well until all options run out, then there is no other way around.

But I wanted to try and test out this mechanic, which was higly recommeded by a thai friend, he had a shop in Chonburi before but recently has moved back to Bkk.

Well, it took him less than 5 minutes to pin point to exactly where the problem was, he checked all the electrical systems, r/r was good, stator was good, the culprit were the wires, the wires to the r/r were old, heavily oxidised and thus not able to conduct current properly. Now it is giving out around 14 volts at 5000rpm, perfect. So Alan was right, instead of old connectors, it was old wires.

So changed new wires, changed new front brake pads (labour only with My EBC pads) checked the whole bike, and everything for 950 baht ! Can't be beat on price and service and honesty. He could have lied to me about r/r faulty like many shops but he didn't, road machine on 3rd road told me my r/r was faulty, need replacement and cost another 4800, and not getting straight down to the problem, so definitely there will be part 2, change stator and part 3 ..... As already stated, it happened a year ago, but the mechanic mis diagnosed, and again recently, changed batt...

I find Bkk has more skillful and honest mechanics because of competion and higher expectations from the customers, and also better price than Pattaya, this is just what I feel.

I highly recommed his service, he is the boss and he is the mechanic too, and more attention is attended to your bike instead of your wallet. He has a little shop near to Seacon Square, pass Seacon there is a big tyre shop, wait there and call him and he will bring you there, or you can get a motorcycle taxi to bring you there, less than 10 minutes. open 10am to 7pm

Gps co-ordinates : N 13'40'40.6 E 100'38'49.8

081-457-0042, if you only speak English, ask to speak to Mr Song.

Cheers guys, thanks all for your inputs.

[MaiChai]

People in Bangkok are not in the habit of ripping people off. What I mean is you don't have the 'ripoff the farang; get rich quick' mentality that you get in tourist areas like Pattaya, and Bangkok people work quite hard. That said, people do get ripped off in Bangkok (Thais as well as foreigners; its nice they don't differentiate!). If you can get a recommendation; then thats great. Prices can be quite high in Bangkok; but then everything is more expensive in Bangkok compared to outside. Generally parts are quite cheap however; probably greater volume of sales? You could argue operating costs are higher in Bangkok so your average bike repair shop is out to make as much as the market will bear and have higher costs to cover with labour and rents. My experience anyway. Thats generally why I do all my own repairs (unless special machining/etc is required such as a rebore/matching piston).

Anyway, glad you got sorted in the end. Well, until the next problem comes along

Why don't you add the shop here:

I also find the Honda Common Service Manual invaluable for fixing electrical problems like you had; google for it.

Edited January 17, 2011 by MaiChai

[powderpuff]

I went along with this gentleman that day to troubleshoot the motorcycle.

What I heard the mechanic Song say was that whoever replaced the regulator used wire of insufficient gauge for the job. Song replaced the wiring with thicker wires which were big enough to do the job. Sort of like a fire truck trying to pump water down a drinking straw.

It was a lot of nonsense over a bodged installation. Got to say Song is a very impressive mechanic who speaks a lot of English. He did have a digital charging analyser.

PM me if you need to know where his shop is (he recently moved). He used to be quite near Seacon Square.

[Garry]

I went along with this gentleman that day to troubleshoot the motorcycle.

What I heard the mechanic Song say was that whoever replaced the regulator used wire of insufficient gauge for the job. Song replaced the wiring with thicker wires which were big enough to do the job. Sort of like a fire truck trying to pump water down a drinking straw.

It was a lot of nonsense over a bodged installation. Got to say Song is a very impressive mechanic who speaks a lot of English. He did have a digital charging analyser.

PM me if you need to know where his shop is (he recently moved). He used to be quite near Seacon Square.

powderpuff, may I suggest you place kuhn Song's details in the Motorcycle Directory Project google map.

[Garry]

Thanks Bigbikebkk, I will definitely keep that as an option in future. If you do not stay in Bkk you will know why I am doing all this running around, it is the convenience, well until all options run out, then there is no other way around.

But I wanted to try and test out this mechanic, which was higly recommeded by a thai friend, he had a shop in Chonburi before but recently has moved back to Bkk.

Well, it took him less than 5 minutes to pin point to exactly where the problem was, he checked all the electrical systems, r/r was good, stator was good, the culprit were the wires, the wires to the r/r were old, heavily oxidised and thus not able to conduct current properly. Now it is giving out around 14 volts at 5000rpm, perfect. So Alan was right, instead of old connectors, it was old wires.

So changed new wires, changed new front brake pads (labour only with My EBC pads) checked the whole bike, and everything for 950 baht ! Can't be beat on price and service and honesty. He could have lied to me about r/r faulty like many shops but he didn't, road machine on 3rd road told me my r/r was faulty, need replacement and cost another 4800, and not getting straight down to the problem, so definitely there will be part 2, change stator and part 3 ..... As already stated, it happened a year ago, but the mechanic mis diagnosed, and again recently, changed batt...

I find Bkk has more skillful and honest mechanics because of competion and higher expectations from the customers, and also better price than Pattaya, this is just what I feel.

I highly recommed his service, he is the boss and he is the mechanic too, and more attention is attended to your bike instead of your wallet. He has a little shop near to Seacon Square, pass Seacon there is a big tyre shop, wait there and call him and he will bring you there, or you can get a motorcycle taxi to bring you there, less than 10 minutes. open 10am to 7pm

Gps co-ordinates : N 13'40'40.6 E 100'38'49.8

081-457-0042, if you only speak English, ask to speak to Mr Song.

Cheers guys, thanks all for your inputs.

It would seem a few people are giving Kuhn Song a good rep.

Thanks for the GPS coordinates CB, but how you formatted won't work on a GPS unit, no degrees or minute format only hours. Should read 13°40'40.6"N 100°38'9.8"E (I checked on Google Earth & Google Maps)

[powderpuff]

Google Maps