Pool Leaking

[farang000999]

well i got rubber plugs and it is not the piping. that leaves the light and the drain. i can see that the light niche was previously wrapped with epoxy. at the base of the cord, where it meets the expoxy mountain, it appears to be separating. however, when i spray some food coloring it really does not appear to get sucked in at all.

so that only leaves the drain. i have search the pool for cracks and none exist.

if the pool is leaking from the drain wont that make it very risky that the pool pops out as the ground becomes more filled with water and the pool lighter?

[WarpSpeed]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

The difference between Thailand and the States, back there it's almost never plumbing it's usually minor structural leaks easily located and repaired..

[WarpSpeed]

my inground pool is leaking. my plan is to just wait and see where the water stops at. however, if the leak is at the bottom (a crack i have not found) is there a risk of the pool popping out of the ground? would i have to drill relief holes? how low can the pool drain before it could pop out of the ground?

until the water level in the ground pops it up. if the water drains = no pop-up.

The pool will not pop out when it "leaks" to the level of the leak, conversely it will not leak all the way to the bottom either if the leak is there and there is static water on the outside of the pool it will only drop as far as the water level outside the pool. The reason is, water seeks it's own level and thus will only leak to the level outside the pool and pressure is equalized at which point it will stop regardless of leak location this is why you can't use this technique to locate it, you must find the leak with the pool full to use the pools positive pressure to locate the water loss..

The only time pools floating is a real concern in the case of a leak with the pool dropping too low is late in the dry season when it's possible to get a sudden, soaking rain on dry ground and it will percolate "soak" very quickly and can then cause a sudden buoyancy to the pool and since the surrounding ground is dry and has shrunken the pool shell is not well secured so it then floats like an ancient cement boat and comes up..

[WarpSpeed]

well i got rubber plugs and it is not the piping. that leaves the light and the drain. i can see that the light niche was previously wrapped with epoxy. at the base of the cord, where it meets the expoxy mountain, it appears to be separating. however, when i spray some food coloring it really does not appear to get sucked in at all.

so that only leaves the drain. i have search the pool for cracks and none exist.

if the pool is leaking from the drain wont that make it very risky that the pool pops out as the ground becomes more filled with water and the pool lighter?

Don't use food coloring it stains the pool, get some Ph indicator liquid and you must use the smallest thing possible to apply it slowly and controlled, see if you can buy a syringe and use that it's much more controllable..

First off just how much water is your pool losing in a dry 24 hours? That's the starting point it tells you the most about where to begin.. Make a clear mark with a pencil in an easily monitored location. To monitor if the pool got rain fill a bucket with water and set it on the top pool step, mark both levels and leave it there over night. If the pool gets rain it will fill much quicker then the bucket due to surface area and then you can have an idea of how much it lost even with rain depending on how much rain you got.. For example if the bucket is up 2 inches but the pool didn't come up at all or only slightly obviously the pool is leaking quite a bit..

Any place where the pool wall was breached by smooth plastic and pipes is the most common place for a leak. There is poor bonding in these locations, returns, lights, if the pool has a skimmer that's numero uno including a naked edge trough as they are seldom finished well because of tight spaces and contours and being mostly out of sight they cheat on finishing them properly..

Edited September 17, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

my inground pool is leaking. my plan is to just wait and see where the water stops at. however, if the leak is at the bottom (a crack i have not found) is there a risk of the pool popping out of the ground? would i have to drill relief holes? how low can the pool drain before it could pop out of the ground?

i had the same problem. here comes the answer:

1.

do the water test first

try to place the bucket inside the pool water on a step or something so that the bucket water keeps the same conditions as the pool water! try to make both the same level to start. use at least 3 days. Make sure you close the water in and outlets in the pool to make sure that definitely it is not the piping or the filters. you can do this by blocking the holes inside the pool. also make calculation of the percentage loss. (how many liters of water in the pool and how many liters loss....

2.

if you have made sure the pool is leaking prepare for a dive! go in the pool with a diving mask or even better diving equipment and go and search for the leak. you use a colored type of fluid: preferably red and use that in a little nose spray bottle. go to the surface and spray only very little bits to see if the water sucks in the surface. if you have established a spot where the colored fluid is sucking in you found the spot where it leaks.

3.

repair the leak with a 3 compound epoxy or not as good but effective a waterproof putty. if you have tiles remove 4 tiles in that area and put them in new with 3 compound expoxy or temporary put in the putty.

4.

start with option 1 again to make sure there is only one leak.

5.

enjoy the pool again.

I'm reading backwards so I see this has been suggested but 3 days is too long, too many variables to change the results drastically like some child playing with the water bucket for example or the maid using it to wash the clothes in without you knowing , 24 hours is plenty to make the determination.

Don't close off anything until it's determined how much it looses in 24 hours. Waste of work for nothing at this early point.

Sometimes the fluid will seem to enter a location, as it will, due to water inflow and outflow so patience is a must and watching carefully also don't assume it's there, it must flow continually into the void and not kick back out at all so no need to go diving just yet, check the water surface thoroughly first unless the static water test determines a large water loss. Also don't assume there is only one leak once you find one use common sense to determine if you think that could be losing the amount you lose in 24 hours and either way do the 24hour static level test again to be certain.

A lot of work mentioned there and mostly based on assumptions but not all necessary like removing tiles etc.. Make determinations about the leak size etc. before going through all those steps in fact maybe once you've made the determination maybe come back here and tell us first unless it's small and your repair to locate it also repairs it..

[WarpSpeed]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

Grout IS a barrier if the proper ingredients are mixed with the grout, as well as grout sealers.

Poorly constructed walls of the pool without the proper admix can also result in cracks.

You can pressure test the pipes without having to drain the pool.

Don't always listen to the doctor.........

Owwwww ouch! Harshly put, but anyways this is true on both counts... I'll not comment on the third point, sounds like sour grapes..

[WarpSpeed]

Grout is never a barrier. If it's a concrete construction the barriers are :

1. Tile adhesive: proper water barrier tile adhesive for swimming pools should be used, and it should be spread evenly ensuring that it completely covrs the concrete. Brand: Weber

2. Concrete: the concrete for walls and floor should be mixed with a waterproofing additive.

3. Rubber water-stop strip should be installed at the join between the walls and the floor prior to casting the concrete.

4. Silicone sealant under the flanges of the skimmer, the ports that return the water to the pool, under the flange of the vacuum port, and around the conduit where it enters the recesses for the lights.

For durability however, a good quality grout should be used, one designed specifically for use in ver wet situations, and premixed with fungicide;

Silicone is the worst in these cases it does not bound well with lime based materials there are products such as Sika swell that are good for it but not silicone and it creates small hard to detect channels that can leak and are veeeery hard to locate..

[WarpSpeed]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

Grout IS a barrier if the proper ingredients are mixed with the grout, as well as grout sealers.

Poorly constructed walls of the pool without the proper admix can also result in cracks.

You can pressure test the pipes without having to drain the pool.

Don't always listen to the doctor.........

We have regrouted hundreds of pools, and in our experience grout is not and should not be entrusted as a water barrier. It is virtually impossible to ensure perfect coverage between the tiles to prevent water at least getting in to touch the substrate. This is why it is not a barrier to water, and if you argue otherwise I would say you have litle practical or field experience. Additives like sealers (Lanko, etc) also also woefully unreliable. If you cannot rely on a 20cm wall pour, how on earth do you think you can rely on a 2 or 3mm thick layer of soft grout? Crazy.

Also, draining is required to seal the pipes inside the pool before pressure testing. Simply screwing down the floor returns is unreliable, and will not withstand 30psi for 48 hours reliably, to give an indication of pipe integrity. The only way to properly and reliably pressure test a pool is to cap off the piping with pipe caps properly affixed with pipe adhesive. Once tested, the caps are chiseled off, and the floor returns re installed.

Please don't mislead users here. Our responses are based on hundreds of pools, with 3 underway at the moment.

Gil

I take exception to the need to pressure test for 48 hours? Why? If there is a piping leak it will tell immediately within seconds/minutes anything so minute as to take 48hrs to determine is too small to even worry about, it might lose a couple of mm per month in the dry season. It's also hard to get any plugs that you can be 100% certain they are not also leaking pressure in that amount of time maybe not even installed properly.. Variables must be eliminated or reduced as much as possible.. But I agree that screwing them down is not going to do the job, they must be removed and plugged.

There are less intrusive/expensive ways to make the determination..

Edited September 17, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

According to the OP, the pipes aren't the problem, so that leaves you with 10% credibility.

In response to your statement, "If you cannot rely on a 20cm wall pour, how on earth do you think you can rely on a 2 or 3mm thick layer of soft grout? Crazy.". An epoxy based grout will seal the joints if properly done. A 3mm layer of epoxy is very strong, waterproof and non-porous; unlike the 20cm wall.

If the pool was built and finished properly it wouldn't need re-grouting, as in the hundreds you claim to have done. Perhaps you were the original pool builder as well...keeps the workers busy and creates an endless income. You kinda resemble the Clinic doctors who pass out antibiotics to young kids who have runny noses and your posts seem to be an attempt to support your superior knowledge and name in case one of your past or present clients happen to read this forum.

"There's more than one way to skin a cat", Your way isn't the only way just because you use the name "Doctor".......and as far as water evaporation, I wouldn't put much weight on that one during the winter months.

Ummmm there is some truth to this but also some in what Gil is saying so as usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The grout in the case of structure movement will obviously NOT provide a seal that the pool structure is unable to provide nor will ANY future repairs of ANY kind. From that point on EVERY repair is considered no more then temporary at best so the best temporary fix is the next step and compromise.. Every year EVERY pool goes through a drying and soaking process with the change of seasons this is caused by the ground drying and soaking and shrinking and expanding which will almost inevitably cause an eventual structure failure even if only minor, some aren't so minor though. The pool structure goes from neutral buoyancy to positive loading on the surrounding soil seasonally for decades so it's inevitable, this is magnified by the region and the soil composition as well..

Another point being overlooked is long term corrosive pool balance (a common problem here) as that can and will significantly soften and erode tile grout to the point of it failing no matter how good the job was done originally.. This process is then passed onto the cement structure behind the protective grout and then you have grout leaks that originated with an improperly balanced pool, but the process takes time so the source is often not known or overlooked.. The mud behind the tiles is never uniform especially around the edges and channels are created so a leak behind a tile may never be detected as it could be so minor and far from it's origination that it could be mm's or cm's away so if the tile is in that bad a condition you'd be chasing an expensive wild goose to try to find it or another one beginning shortly afterwards instead of just re-grouting and it's a potential Pandora's box as that may not solve the problem if others exist elsewhere.

I wouldn't discount the piping either at this point, there's a lot of ambiguity in trying to help a novice locate a leak, it's not so cut and dried as some would suggest..

Actually during the winter months evaporation is the highest cause of water loss here depending on where the pool is located. If it's up north where you get sudden overnight cold snaps from reasonably warm temps the day before they come with very dry air and because of the sudden loss of heat with the water creating condensation and the dry sponge like air you can loose a fair amount in 24 hours. If it is located further south the drier air still plays a part in quicker water loss and in both cases also does less rain recovery, making it seem more loss in the winter. Usually the red flags for people are the need to manually fill with a hose more often, the water bill going up or more water trucks needed with an autofill system so false alarms are more common in the dry season and water loss is exacerbated and exaggerated both probably unnecessary in the rainy season ..

[WarpSpeed]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and I am sorry it turned out to be a slinging match between a couple of guys.

Big Gary

No harm on my side; the bucket test is a good idea, to determine if its actually leaking, or simple evaporation. You might not have a leak after all! When it comes to evaporation, there really is no "standard" rate - it depends on surface area, humidity, wind rate that day, sunlight exposure, etc. The bucket test though, will give you a good comparison.

Gil

All true, another reason NOT to test for more then 24 hours. But generally speaking anywhere from 2 to 6 mm per day is acceptable..

Edited September 17, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Hi,

We have a problem with our pool, and would like to know how you do compare the loss of water from a small bucket to loss of water from a 8 x 4 pool.

Obviously i'm wrong, but i would have thought the bucket would have lost a lot more than the pool over the same period.

For your info, we are losing about 5mm /day, obviously the measurements were done on a dry day, broken cloud and sun.

Any help or info would be appreciated.

Cheers....

Actually all other things being equal the bucket and pool will evaporate at the same rate, losing water volume proportional to their surface area.

Get a bucket.

Fill it with water to about an inch from the top.

Mark the level with a marker.

Mark the pool level too.

Leave alone for 24 hours.

Check the two levels, if the pool has gone down more than the bucket, you have a leak.

Conversely the opposite is true for the same reason and the pool will gain more rain then the bucket due to larger surface area..

Jeeeezz as I write this my head spins as there are sooooo many variables that need to really be considered. There's no one magic bullet for every instance or detection as much of this doesn't even begin to address if the pool has a naked edge or a surge tank, there simply is no generally acceptable process or procedure to do a pool leak detection it's completely subjective to so man factors ..

[WarpSpeed]

Gary

I really don't want to get in the middle of this but it would seem to me that if the pool is above ground and you can see all your plumbing then it should be easy to determine if the leak is at the point where the pipe passes through the pool wall. I assume you have a floor drain in the pool which you will have to check as well. You are going to have to dig underneath the pool to see if there is a leak there. I would not attempt to dig under the pool if it's filled unless the pool is supported on pilings. Water is heavy and you can easily damage the pool by undermining the soil underneath.

Are you getting air in your pump? Air in the pump could indicate a leak in the line coming from the pump to the filter.

Check your plumbing lines for leaks at all the connections back to your pump/filter and the returns to the pool.

Doing an evaporation test in the rainy season with high humidity will be difficult but can be done as the evaporation rate will be very small. In any event it's worth a try.

I would steer clear of trying to use epoxy grout unless you are an experienced tile setter. If you plan to regrout I would strongly recommend you use Super Champ Extra 3 Plus Tile Grout for Pools. It's waterproof after it cures and will stop water from passing through the tile joints. I've used this grout myself (3 friends and myself) when we regrouted my 17m x 7m concrete pool. I've also used it very successfully to seal the joints around both skimmer boxes and all pipes passing through the pool wall & floor. It's very obvious once you mix this grout that it's not the standard run of the mill grout. It's very sticky and will adhere to just about anything in the pool. It's important to make sure all the joints are completly filled with the grout. Working time is the same as any other grout unlike epoxy grout which is much faster setting and has a shorter working time.

Concrete itself is not waterproof and will allow water to pass through unless a waterproofing compound is added to the mix during construction. That being said since this is an above ground pool then I would check the pool walls to see if they're wet on the outside. If you cannot detect any moisture on the outside walls then I would say you should look for the leak elswhere.

I hope this helps.

I agree I already stepped in it, but I gave my advice now I think I'm going to step out of it..

No digging just yet Mike isolate and check the level once more then if no further leaking PSI test the pipe first.. Always try to maintain the soil compaction whenever possible as to disturb it may cause a problem in the future that is not currently present by undermining the pools foundation as you mention and there is no way to get it back to he same level of compaction once refilled.

Air in the pump may give indication but in the case of an above ground pool and the equipment being lower what sucks air when the pump is on will leak water when it's off which is why it leaks, so a simple inspection with pump off should indicate if this is the case. Also this one reason to check the level with both the pump running normally and with it off, if there is a suction side pipe leak it will leak more with the system off as when it's on it is sucking inward and causing air intrusion but when it's off it is leaking outward so it looses more water. Strangely depending on the crack and location it's shape can greatly increase this phenomena too as a crack in the direction of water flow or has an "edge" to it looses more then one that goes with the flow and that one will also suck more air as the water passes over top of it instead of rushing in being forced into it..

A thorough inspection of the pump is called for as the shaft seal maybe leaking which will both suck air and leak water though it will leak more water when the pump is on..

Ok I'm tired need to go lay down ..

[WarpSpeed]

i hate to burst the "bucket" bubble but i can't help it. water in a bucket under equal conditions such as sun radiation and ambient temperatur will always evaporate faster than water in an inground pool provided that the poolpump is not working and therefore the surface not moving.

reason:

the bucket water will heat up to a higher temperature than the water in an inground pool with the walls not exposed to higher air temperature than the soil. higher temperature = higher differential water temp / air temp causes higher evaporation. even the above ground pool the OP described will not heat up as fast as the water in a bucket.

by the way, the "PoolDoctor" was right with his claim "considerable loss of water because of defective seal 5-way valve". it happened to me in my former home years ago.

This is why you leave the bucket in the pool on the top step and not out on the pool deck... Additionally there seems to be a bit of misinformation for the reasons for the bucket, the reason for the bucket is to determine whether or not the pool got significant rain over the 24 hr period not how much the pool leaks, a simple mark on the pool or the side of the bucket independent of the water in the bucket determines that..

Edited September 17, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

my inground pool is leaking. my plan is to just wait and see where the water stops at. however, if the leak is at the bottom (a crack i have not found) is there a risk of the pool popping out of the ground? would i have to drill relief holes? how low can the pool drain before it could pop out of the ground?

Relief holes while trying to find a leak?? I answered this above before I saw this post..

[farang000999]

i am losing about 3/4inch a day more than evaporation. i have done the bucket test. the water level is currently an inch above where the light hole stars. the light is currently outside of the pool on the deck. i took it off and noticed that the previous owner had put some epoxy on the pool niche. i put more on it. it did not stop the leak. i put rubber plugs in every return/suction pipe besides the bottom drain. i have tried dye tests from the pool store with needle-thin plastic tip but have not found anything. they do not work very well. they tend to shoot too much. at this point i guess i will have to wait to see where the water stops.

my bottom drain looks like the one in this video

is that plugged part the Hydrostatic valve or do you think it goes nowhere and was not used in the construction?

[WarpSpeed]

is that plugged part the Hydrostatic valve or do you think it goes nowhere and was not used in the construction?

Both, it goes nowhere in most cases but is also used for pressure equalization if your pool is to be drained for any lengthy period of time.

Sometimes nowadays they use that port for a suction break by plumbing it back into the line somewhere up stream to prevent someone from getting a hand or arm stuck by the suction as it allows the suction to bypass and will then allow one to get release if for some reason the grate was off and someone went fooling in there..

The light is a good suspect it sounds like you're saying that this pool has light niches and a Pacfab main drain, does it also have a wire type skimmer? Not the typical Thai installation someone has been doing their homework and learned of other set ups..

3/4" per day is definitely atypical and leaking but should be pretty easy to locate unless it's several smaller leaks combined. How old is this pool? And where is it located?

[farang000999]

about 10 years old, i am the new owner. it is in florida.

[WarpSpeed]

about 10 years old, i am the new owner. it is in florida.

Florida?? Okay!! Now I understand the construction and ways you described it looked very familiar, dam_n! Now it's becoming more clear you're definitely in my purview then. Shame, I plan to be returning next year if you want I'll charge you only a couple thousand for a service call and leave early ? That's only a few hundred more then my usual service call ..

The bottom plug is definitely a hydrostatic line used to remove water from underneath once the pool shell is completed, there's no valve per se but it usually goes to a gravel bed under the pool and the plug is not likely to leak, but would be a nice place for a video demo as you can loosen it and make it leak very easily for visual purposes..

If you can give me some pictures of the pool I may be able to guide you better paying special attention to the weak points in the gunite or shotcrete structure this what the pool shell is made of and a product and technique I had considered bringing here as it's a major reason why the pool industry is decades behind here..

Post up some jpegs of the skimmer close up in the mouth also known as the weir from the front, some of the bottom of the skimmer from the top, several different angles and zoom on the bottom, I guess I can assume you have an American products light? The pool level is down so take some good surface jpegs of the light with it out of it's niche and also of all your returns but I'll tell you up front I suspect your skimmer.

How? You might be asking yourself? Well your piping system is all technically one connected piece and with your pump off it has a vacuum all the time and if you have a leak in the skimmer bottom or the piping underneath (most common places for leaks and piping leaks) so even though your water level is well below the skimmer mouth the water is flowing back through your returns and your M/D and out any potential piping leak below that level because it seeks it's own level.

Answer this; Is your skimmer completely dry yet or does it still have some water in the bottom? If it is dry then it is almost certainly the skimmer. If it has water in it still, look at it from across the pool and imagine if it is approximately the same level as the pool water and if your answer is yes it is also a good indication that the skimmer is likely to be the source of your leak 10 years old is another tell tale as stresses over time on the pipes finally cause a fracture few pool companies in Florida know how to properly install both the skimmers and the pipes to keep them stress free for decades. I know, I used to be one of those exclusive companies..

Now to test my theory; I assume your pump is off already? If not turn it off permanently and close off all the suction side valves and even better if you have a return valve though not likely. Open the pump leaf trap to break the prime on the pump, you have now effectively isolated all the pipes in the system, mark the pool and use a bucket on the top step as described and then check overnight. If, as I suspect the leak stops, that's pretty much conclusive but as a professional I'd go on to step 2 to be certain which is usually step 1 for me but for our purposes now it is step 2 and I'd plug the skimmer line with a plug that has a screwdriver sized slot in it made with the tip of a screw driver and a hammer (real scientific tools these).

Then thread it into the hole, no need to be tight or sealed and fill the skimmer to the top with a hose. Now, the skimmer has been dried out overnight so it should suck very distinctly with no ambiguity once you do this test almost like the pump was on. What you are doing with this technique is simulating and magnifying a crack deeper in the system by reducing the entire inflow of that skimmer line to this small hole where you can observe it.

If the pool fails this test it's strike 2, now for strike 3 which requires more experience and equipment so probably best to get a professional in at this point.. But, you need to install a new plug with a sealer tightly and then install a pressure rig to the skimmer line at the equipment by cutting and piping to PSI test the line and it should build and hold pressure relatively quickly but as I suspect, it will not and it will drop dramatically once off or not build pressure at all once it reaches a certain point but should be able to achieve and hold at least 40psi without any problem based on stateside pressure but they should not exceed that amount it is more then enough for this test and to go higher could cause it to fracture if isn't already..

The amount of water loss mentioned I feel is now within an amount I would expect from this type of leak location..

If this last test is failed be prepared for a pricy repair if done right but at least you'll know. But give me the results of the tests you can do first and then I'll tell you more from there about what's necessary and my suspicions of the leaks underground location.. Hope this helps out..

Just noticed in my previous post I asked if it had a "wire" type skimmer that was supposed to read "weir" but now that I know your location good chance it does..

Edited September 21, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

The difference between Thailand and the States, back there it's almost never plumbing it's usually minor structural leaks easily located and repaired..

Oooopppppps!! With the exception of skimmer lines but actually now that I'm thinking about it we do have quite a few fractured lines there due to ground and pool movement across the seasons but I was thinking linear regarding this post and thinking about the actual assembly knowing the joint separations that occur here due to poor prep and bonding..

[maccastime]

my inground pool is leaking. my plan is to just wait and see where the water stops at. however, if the leak is at the bottom (a crack i have not found) is there a risk of the pool popping out of the ground? would i have to drill relief holes? how low can the pool drain before it could pop out of the ground?

If you have a fibregalss pool be very careful here,you will have to brace it on all sides with timber,if you dont,as the water gets down fairly low,it will pop out of the ground i have seen this happen.Another question does the pool have a pool light? as they are a problem in a lot of pools especially fibreglass,they tend to suffer from leaks.

[WarpSpeed]

my inground pool is leaking. my plan is to just wait and see where the water stops at. however, if the leak is at the bottom (a crack i have not found) is there a risk of the pool popping out of the ground? would i have to drill relief holes? how low can the pool drain before it could pop out of the ground?

If you have a fibregalss pool be very careful here,you will have to brace it on all sides with timber,if you dont,as the water gets down fairly low,it will pop out of the ground i have seen this happen.Another question does the pool have a pool light? as they are a problem in a lot of pools especially fibreglass,they tend to suffer from leaks.

First off it's not a fiber glass pool. Secondly it will not pop out as already stated as water seeks it's own level and it is leaking from higher pressure to lower. You have never seen a pool pop out from a leak there was some other reasoning or factors involved behind it. Have you ever seen a sunken or even partially sunken boat suddenly rise to the surface before without removing the water from inside? Well that's what any pool is, even a fiber glass pool which is even more representative of that example once it fills it either sinks if that was possible or only empties to the point of the leak unless the leak is at the very bottom and it continues to sink which can't happen installed in the ground but the pressure inside and out is equalized so no way it's going to come up, that's a myth..

[farang000999]

thanks for the long reply. i am quite busy and not yet ready to jump into this yet but definitely appreciate the detailed response.

[hedonist44]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and I am sorry it turned out to be a slinging match between a couple of guys.

Big Gary

But not surprised. Actually it's becoming expected !

[farang000999]

The skimmer was dry. The pool stopped leaking when it got almost below two of the return lines on the same side of the pool. Then it rained a bit. The pool then filled up about an inch higher and the skimmer line also refilled. Now the water level in the pool appears to have still stopped leaking even though the water is back above the return lines as shown in the attached photos.

If it were the return lines, shouldn't it leak down again to where it stopped before?

Is it not leaking because the skimmer line has filled with water now?

I cannot get the leaf trap top off. It is stuck bad.

The skimmer and main drain are attached to the same valve and I have the skimmer value to OFF.

[farang000999]

[WarpSpeed]

Ok, you have a KK or Barracuda automatic pool cleaner in this pool yes? Or have had at one point in time? That is what the blue adapter in the skimmer line is for?... I'm not certain as it looks like an adapter and based on the type of skimmer they used and such it may be something new I'm not familiar with but it definitely looks like that type of adapter.

I believe I've seen and heard enough at this point to have this pretty much pinned down. Since you can't get the pump lid off it's a Sta-rite and no doubt either has never been lubricated properly or the wrong lubricant used which causes them to stick really badly due to over tightening and a lube that gets tacky instead of staying lubricious.

Don't use any petroleum based lubricants such as Vaseline or other they break down the rubber and make it sticky. Go to Home Depot or where ever including most pool stores and purchase a product called Super Lube it comes in a silver colored can or tube I use them both but for your purposes the tube is better. It's a Teflon based lubricant and never gets tacky and when you use it clean and dry the lid O-ring carefully and then apply sparingly and do not over-tighten the lid.

It is likely you or more likely the owners before you had air coming into the system and likely misdiagnosed it as a gasket problem and instead it was due primarily to your leak problem as these Sta-rite gaskets last years and virtually never fail that way (I'll explain the connection in a minute) but they kept over-tightening the pot lid in trying to stop the air intrusion thinking it was the source of the problem but it isn't/wasn't.

All indicators point to my original predictions I'm afraid in that you have a fractured skimmer line look at the picture below.

This skimmer is similar to yours from an underground perspective the locations indicated by the arrows are a serious weak point in the plumbing and this picture illustrates why as well.

The 90degree elbow here is solidly mounted in the bottom of the skimmer with no ability to 'flex' or 'give' and therefore places a lot of strain on the center of the joint pushing it downward due to the weight of the pipe, the water inside and the dirt on top as it settles over time & now compound that with possibly an automatic suction pool cleaner and you have a recipe for a moderately costly piping repair.

Though this fitting is clear and a 'T' it's still representative as they also make 90's the same way. I couldn't find one that was white in a quick search but it illustrates the ONLY fittings that should be used in under ground plumbing and the only one I used when I built pools. I made that change 20 years ago and they're a bit more expensive but only pennies per unit and I felt it was far more worth it and I was right as I never had a failure once I made the change in spite of many prior but had much less headaches, call backs and expensive repairs which was more then worth the minimal extra cost. The company that makes these is named Dura and I'd insist on having it repaired with nothing less, but because of that little extra cost many cookie cutter pool companies and others too don't use them when building.

The reinforcing gussets you see in the joint are the primary factor for their strength they also have a few more internally, this is the thinnest point of the fitting but yet takes the most stress and strain.. If you factor in the pool cleaner (and BTW there was one there maybe they took it with them), those type of cleaners use a tongue (for a basic description) that uses water flow like a Rainbird sprinkler, in this case though the flow is inwards not outwards but the principle applied is the same and it channels that flow interruption to move the unit on the floor and walls with a clicking sound and the hydraulic hammering effect created by the flow being interrupted moves the water to & fro within the pipe and that exacerbates the problem creating a continual, rhythmic rocking motion and fracture of the pipe joint.

The only one that doesn't use this system is a Pool Vac system and is by far my most recommended, user friendly and reliable cleaner..

This pipe as you can see is well below the mouth of the skimmer so once it drops below the mouth it continues to get water flow back up through the skimmer through the other pipes in the system which are all tied together and the vacuum maintained on it even with the pump off instead you get a back flowing siphoning effect.. If you notice though, and imagine the height of where the pipe lies you can see that it's right about the location of your water level where it is now..

I see now that the skimmer valve is off, I assume you shut it off recently? It was not off before right? This is the only piece to the puzzle that doesn't fit, but it does if you shut it off since my previous posts as that means the skimmer is now isolated from the rest of the system and thus your pool is now gaining water again and no longer leaking.. The reason your skimmer has water too is that it will lose very slowly now as it has minimal pressure on it by only the small volume of water trapped in the skimmer and another factor is that a skimmer line is subject to a lot of small debris such as what you have in it now that can/will get sucked into the crack and hang up with minimal suction to pull to move it through literally blocking the leak until it rots and decomposes and gets sucked through again at which point it will leak much harder again..

You need to get the blue adapter out of the line and then do the test I outlined in my previous posts to confirm it is the skimmer line. Once you've done this you can seal it off at least for now and get it filtering by leaving a sealed plug in the line, the skimmer valve off and operating it through the M/D line and using the vacuum line to clean it which BTW is where the cleaner should have been installed anyways.. Then when you see it is holding water get a competent (?) company to do the repair and not the one that plumbed it in the first place as the system plumbing above ground including the valves is not impressive, too many 90's too many couplings it's quite a mish mash I'm sorry to say and representative of what's probably underground...

The repair should be around $300 to $600 if it's done right and I'm factoring the inflation costs these days.. Hopefully you have some under deck access immediately behind your skimmer and they don't have to go through your deck, that's a nightmare all around..

I suggest this was also the source of the air intrusion that caused them to over-tighten the lid in the first place to try to make the pool cleaner work properly but it was more due to the pipe fracture below it and by using the cleaner also magnified the problem by causing it to suck more air and maybe even the pump to lose prime. when you load the system with a cleaner it will take air (much easier to pull then water is) from anywhere it can get it.

JFYI this type of leak is a lot of fun to find if you don't have the experience because the pool looses more water while it's off then when it's running due to sucking inwardly when operating so many technicians dismiss it being a pipe. The only exception is if the fracture is cracked in the direction of the water flow in which case it looses more water while running but still plenty while not..

Whew!! I need a nap now...

Edited October 4, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[farang000999]

The blue adapter won't come off, any tricks?

Why does the skimmer have a pipe that goes down and attaches to the drain?

thx

[WarpSpeed]

The blue adapter won't come off, any tricks?

Why does the skimmer have a pipe that goes down and attaches to the drain?

thx

Try twisting the adapter to unscrew it, it should be threaded in, if you can't get it out you can't test the line by plugging it I can only tell you what should happen, I'm 12,000 miles away I can't give you the ingenuity to do it. If you're in over your head at this point maybe it's time to call in a professional with the info I've given you to prevent doing more damage or chasing a wild goose..

I haven't completely dismissed the returns as possibly the problem either since this hasn't been effectively tested as you mentioned it had been previously..

I took notice that the directional adapters are still in the wall returns as well so I'm wondering how you were able to plug them off to test the returns as there is no plug that can do that effectively while they're still in place. If you look inside them they have a small channel formed into the side of them and any plug you put inside will not seal them off because of it. Most are just pressed in but occasionally some unqualified idiot glues them in. You should be able to gently pull them off with a straight claw hammer or small pry bar taking care not to scar the wall. If they're glued they need to be sacrificed and cut out to do the job right and that takes special skills to do properly and without doing more damage.

Also if you have not been able to open the pot lid like you said then you've never stopped the back flow siphon to the returns and therefore the returns are still a major candidate.. You can't skip steps and say you did it, there's a process that has to be followed otherwise it's all just a waste of time and no insult intended but that's MY TIME being wasted..

I don't mean to be snooty here but removing the pot lid is pretty basic stuff that needs to be done regularly anyways so if that's a problem then certainly this more complicated stuff is going down paths you're not qualified to travel.

You didn't answer any of my questions in my previous post either, I've taken quite a bit of time with PS illustrations and such and given you quite a bit of information with little feedback to go on and without I can't give you proper info as it all just becomes guess work, I'm not asking just for banter, so it's a bit frustrating, we need to get to the point here it's dragging on, I usually charge $100 for the first 2 hours of diagnosis and I'm exceeding that now by some margin for free....

The pipe going to the M/D in the picture is the cheap way to install and isn't relative to your installation. The skimmer has 2 holes obviously in that case and a special valve that has a float in it and a small plastic tab that you can close which will force the pump to pull water through the M/D line instead of a separate line and valve system like yours has.. They do sometimes use both lines as well by plumbing the pipe to the M/D and then one to the pump directly through the plug you see in the bottom of the M/D instead of using it as a hydrostatic line but that is seldom done in Florida where there is so much static underground water requiring the plug in the bottom to equalize that water pressure..

Edited October 5, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[farang000999]

I took notice that the directional adapters are still in the wall returns as well so I'm wondering how you were able to plug them off to test the returns as there is no plug that can do that effectively while they're still in place. If you look inside them they have a small channel formed into the side of them and any plug you put inside will not seal them off because of it.

Ok. I had used a rubber plug stuck inside of there. But the water level is still not falling so I still think the skimmer leak is more likely as it seems to have stopped leaking since I turned off the skimmer valve.

Ok, you have a KK or Barracuda automatic pool cleaner in this pool yes?

They had one of those.

I see now that the skimmer valve is off, I assume you shut it off recently?

Yes I closed it so that I could stop the pool from turning green. I shut the skimmer and left the bottom drain on as illustrated in the picture. I did this at about where the pool water level is now.

The pipe going to the M/D in the picture is the cheap way to install and isn't relative to your installation.

Ok, so if I get the blue adapter off and put a rubber plug in the skimmer and keep the skimmer valve on off, should be able to refill the pool and see if it continues leaking or not? Would this method be effective at isolating the skimmer?

Will get the teflon spray today after work and give it a shot and see if the return line are glued or stuck in.

[WarpSpeed]

Ok, sounds good but not a rubber plug for the skimmer use a threaded plug like the one in your M/D.

Did you close the skimmer line before or after I mentioned it?

Edit: I see you said you just shut the skimmer line, so that's good news for the test bad news for the end result in that it confirms the missing piece.

If it was closed already the pool shouldn't have lost water unless it doesn't fully seal and that type of valve seal in those space saver Jandy valves is quite possible it has been damaged and water is leaking past it..

Jandy valves are the best on the market I even imported some here for a job I did some years ago. The Never Lube valve is now guaranteed for life with Teflon seals in them and no lube required.

Never lubes are larger and black, those valves are not Never lubes and they don't have any way to lube them, so the rubber seals swell and get pinched off after a while and then don't seal completely but since it's in a closed system it usually isn't really an issue, but in this case they can leak backflow which is why the back up to the test is to open the trap and break the prime AKA siphon...

The lube I'm suggesting is not to loosen the lid but it will keep it from being over tightened by creating a lubricated seal. They probably used this blue or greenish, gummy rubbish called water lube or aqua lube, don't use them the pool store may try to sell it to you not knowing about Super lube or not carrying it but don't buy it, it's crap comparatively speaking..

To get the top off, a pool store will have a special tool for a Sta-rite. There is a trick with a common hammer but I'm reluctant to say as it's kind of difficult to explain and you can break the lid..

I'll give it a try, but try at your own risk...

Take the hammer and place the palm of your left hand if your right handed firmly on the opposite side of the lid on the opposite side in the direction of removal (righty tighty = lefty loosey) and press firmly like un-screwing just like doing a breast press excercise.

Take the hammer and gently hit close to the outside edge of the lid where it meets the lid you can see the lid is thicker there where it is molded, anywhere else and it's too thin and you'll break it, hit with the hammer head flat and as low to the top of the lid as possible.. While pressing with firm pressure with your left hand gently tap this spot I mentioned with the hammer, on this spot it can take a pretty good hit without breaking but still try not to hit it too hard.. Once you break the vacuum and the initial sticking it should open easily from there, in fact this is usually a knuckle buster so keep your fingers tight and not extended, you could even break one if you're not careful as it lets loose pretty unexpectedly and you have to apply a lot of pressure with the other hand simultaneously. Then proceed to remove the pot basket and clean it out and replace taking care to make sure the 2 catches are properly in place and you've rotated the basket to lock it down properly.

If you're careful you can also use a large pipe wrench on the same spot or large pair of channel locks which I use but you have to twist with even pressure on both sides at once or you'll damage the lid and guaranteed your knuckles as well..

Having done this go ahead with cleaning it but hold off on lubricating it, leave it open and then if you plug the skimmer line you can refill the pool add some Cl2 and check it for a dry 24 hours. You know what it was doing before so it should be easy to see what it is doing now in the same period of time.

If it doesn't leak, for piece of mind I'd still go ahead with getting a second plug and putting a hole in it like I mentioned and screw that in and place some dye in front of it. It will suck like the pump is on if it's leaking it will not be ambiguous and I like to do this for customers as it's definitive like seeing the actual leak.

If it fails this test then put in the solid plug and then you can at least turn the pump back on (after lubing and closing the lid of course) and keep the pool clean until you can get a pool company to repair it..

I'd also ask the pool company to unscrew the tops of your valves and rotate them to the proper direction they aren't installed properly but the good thing about those valves is that no matter what direction you install them you can rotate them so they work properly..

Actually on second thought now that I think of it they probably just broke the stops off the bottom of the handles so they rotate 360 degrees now don't they?

Anyway I hope that works out for ya let me know what the result is..

BTW don't bother with the returns at the moment it may be extra work and cost for no reason.. Check the skimmer first..

Edited October 5, 2011 by WarpSpeed