Phuket Gang Rape Victim Now Safe

[thaibeachlovers]

Geriatrickid give it a rest will you.

Take it up with the police, not a reporter who reports.

Jeeeez

Geriatrickid has as much right to put his view point as anyone else. If you don't like his viewpoint, that is your problem.

I would like to hear what he has to say on the subject.

Suggestion- if you don't like something posted by a particular poster- DON'T READ IT!

[thaibeachlovers]

It would be the Hells Angels fault because at no time did you give them the permssion to beat the crap out of you.

It is ok for a girl to find a guy, go back to his room and shag the night away as much as she likes. But the minute she says no, it means no. It is not her fault if in fact she has been raped, no matter how she got herself into the situation.

Geriatrickkid, your scenario would indeed be good reading and it would be perfectly reasonable to be reported. Of course one would expect you to be given a right of reply but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be reported in the first instance. On television and the print media we always have one sided stories, the police in my country, as I'm sure in many others, even have media units to inform the media and public about what has happened to people and the charges laid. Does that make them false? Does that make them true? It doesn't matter, it's simply reporting a claim that has been made.

If the girl makes the claim and the men are found not guilty why should she have to pay recompence. Being not guilty is not the same as being proved innocent. Beyond reasonable doubt is a very high bar to jump and sometimes guilty people get off. It is the old adage that I would rather see 10 guilty persons be free than 1 innocent person in gaol (if only that were true). If we are to 'fine' a complainant every time an accused is found not guilty then we would have even less people laying charges and more and more guilty parties wandering the streets.

The girl made a claim, the media reported that claim. Believe it if you want, disbelieve it if you want. The men can give their version of events if they so wish. Until then we only have her friend's comments. We don't even have the alleged victim's words on it.

So either way, I don't see how anyone can come to a conclusion that something did or did not happen. Just take it as it is, a cautionary tale that something like this could have happened. I just hope that it didn't.

It would be legally the Hell's Angels fault for beating me up, but my fault for being an idiot.

Too many women get drunk, have sex, don't say no, and then accuse the man of rape. His life is ruined, and she remains anonymous.

Hardly justice.

Surely the debate here is whether the press should report everything, whether it is true or not. Reporting lies to sell papers is not an ethical thing to do.

I maintain that no such crime should be reported till the accused is found guilty. That would put a stop to all the sensationalist stories that later turn out to be fabrications.

It would be different of course if a serial rapist was at work, to warn people to take more care, than they should already be exercising.

If a woman makes a false claim of rape, proven to have lied under oath, of course she should have to pay damages. He's lost his job, perhaps his family and home. Why should she walk away without penalty? She's a criminal.

If that happened, perhaps we'd have less false accusations.

NB. While it is a woman's legal right to get drunk off her head, and go with a strange man to his room for casual sex, it does not mean it is wise. At the least, they should go to her room, where a gang of sex crazed thugs will not be lying in wait.

That is not intended to refer to this particular woman, as no one else was there, apart from the alleged gang, so no one on this forum can say what happened.

[thaibeachlovers]

Headline:

Girl Cries Rape to Avoid Paying Visa Overstay Fine.

Has a catchy tone don't you think?????

Or "British Girl Exploits Loophole to get Free Ticket Home".

She did not get a free ticket home. She will have to pay the FCo back.

Perhaps you can do a follow up to this story.

I'd be interested to know if she does indeed pay for the ticket, especially as it has been alleged that she has no money.

[geriatrickid]

Reading Geriatrickid's posts today makes me feel physically sick. This is not a personal attack in any way, but his opinions on this thread and disregard for any sensitivity is hard to stomach...and makes a bit of mockery of his comments on Drummond's sensationalism! Women are raped and raped and raped, statistically the numbers are huge, so let's not feel sorry for UNNAMED agressors and maybe spare a bit of compassion for this girl. After all no one else is a victim here.

If you have become sick over reading my comments then I suggest you need to grow up. I am not being insensitive when I point out the discrepancies. This story as presented has more holes in it than a chunk of swiss cheese. Yes, people are sexually assaulted. it's a deplorable crime. Unfortunately, false allegations can be made. The likelihood of an exagerated or false claim is related to the circumstances of the claimant with there being more of a likelihood of a questionable claim when the person making the allegations has a vested interest, i.e. a dispute, or in this case a penniless tout that is illegally in the country and illegally working. If you noticed, Patong was relatively free of the motorbike borne scourge of time share touts this past high season. There has been a crackdown on these touts since last November and when they have been caught they have incurred considerable expense. I am in not using this as an excuse to dismiss the allegations, as every sexual assault must be investigated and those making such allegations be treated with compassion and respect. Sexual assaults are typically under reported. However, on the island of Phuket there were only 6 recorded rapes of UK nationals. Not one of them has demonstrated the reported characteristics of this case. in the past decade, I am unaware of one such similar event. That doesn't mean the assault didn't happen, but it makes it an extraordinary event.

Where is the rape kit? This person received medical attention at the behest of the consul.. Even in rape cases where victims are hesitant to pursue charges, they will seek out medical care. A major fear is that of contracting an STI and since this is Thailand, HIV. It is one the major concerns expressed by victims, even more so that a fear for personal safety. If this person received medical attention, specimens had to be collected. What happened to them? Why is there no mention of physical evidence from the sexual assault? If 5 males sexually assault a woman in succession, there is going to be significant physical damage. There will also most likely be male secretions and pubic hair left over that is readily evident. Not one word is given as to whether or not there was physical evidence of the assault.

The alleged victim was able to contact the local consul and make the allegation of a gang rape, but was unable to undertake any other reporting actions with the police. Here's a fact that was left out of the news reports. The western consuls have received basic training on how to assist and support victims of serious crimes. It is called advocacy. Although some people may say that the absence of a female police officer to interview the alleged victim was a determining factor in the reluctance to provide information, the public health literature says otherwise. What matters most is that there be an strong advocate available to provide emotional support during the questioning. That advocate was available and ensured that medical assistance was made available. Had the alleged victim consented to providing the necessary assault information and then stopped a minute or so in to the interview because it was unbearable I could understand. It happens. Some interviewers have limited skills. but others can show compassion and understanding, even if they are males. Thai women are shy when it comes to sexual issues and yet they report rape in the thousands. These assaults are usually reported to male investigators and the rape kits are usually done by male physicians. The victim wasn't some shrinking violet. She made her living chasing down foreigners trying to sell them time shares. If you have ever seen the foreign women in Patong perched on the backs of motor scooters in action, you will appreciate that they are a rough and tough lot that have no hesitation letting loose profanities and even threatening people when told to piss off. That characteristic does not justify an assault, but what it does suggest is that many of these women are considerably more hardy than a young university student that is attacked on a secluded beach and would be able to provide some basic information as to the circumstances of an attack.

You and many others may find my position discomforting. However, we owe it to those people that are sexually assaulted to be able to respond with no hesitation. A case like this stinks. Either additional information that would clarify circumstances is missing or the allegations are not an accurate account of what actually occurred. For example, when the Daily Mail reports "It is understood that embassy officials arranged for her medical examination, but afterwards decided it would be hopeless to attempt a prosecution," was it because/ the alleged victim was traumatized, or was uncooperative or the consul believed the police would not respond? This is an intentionally inconclusive statement.

I will reiterate one last time; rape is wrong. Sexual assault is wrong. I don't care what the past sexual behaviour was of a victim, it doesn't matter. All people alleging such assaults deserve respect and compassion. However, sometimes people take advantage of people's willngness to help.

[andrewdrummond]

Reading Geriatrickid's posts today makes me feel physically sick. This is not a personal attack in any way, but his opinions on this thread and disregard for any sensitivity is hard to stomach...and makes a bit of mockery of his comments on Drummond's sensationalism! Women are raped and raped and raped, statistically the numbers are huge, so let's not feel sorry for UNNAMED agressors and maybe spare a bit of compassion for this girl. After all no one else is a victim here.

If you have become sick over reading my comments then I suggest you need to grow up. I am not being insensitive when I point out the discrepancies. This story as presented has more holes in it than a chunk of swiss cheese. Yes, people are sexually assaulted. it's a deplorable crime. Unfortunately, false allegations can be made. The likelihood of an exagerated or false claim is related to the circumstances of the claimant with there being more of a likelihood of a questionable claim when the person making the allegations has a vested interest, i.e. a dispute, or in this case a penniless tout that is illegally in the country and illegally working. If you noticed, Patong was relatively free of the motorbike borne scourge of time share touts this past high season. There has been a crackdown on these touts since last November and when they have been caught they have incurred considerable expense. I am in not using this as an excuse to dismiss the allegations, as every sexual assault must be investigated and those making such allegations be treated with compassion and respect. Sexual assaults are typically under reported. However, on the island of Phuket there were only 6 recorded rapes of UK nationals. Not one of them has demonstrated the reported characteristics of this case. in the past decade, I am unaware of one such similar event. That doesn't mean the assault didn't happen, but it makes it an extraordinary event.

Where is the rape kit? This person received medical attention at the behest of the consul.. Even in rape cases where victims are hesitant to pursue charges, they will seek out medical care. A major fear is that of contracting an STI and since this is Thailand, HIV. It is one the major concerns expressed by victims, even more so that a fear for personal safety. If this person received medical attention, specimens had to be collected. What happened to them? Why is there no mention of physical evidence from the sexual assault? If 5 males sexually assault a woman in succession, there is going to be significant physical damage. There will also most likely be male secretions and pubic hair left over that is readily evident. Not one word is given as to whether or not there was physical evidence of the assault.

The alleged victim was able to contact the local consul and make the allegation of a gang rape, but was unable to undertake any other reporting actions with the police. Here's a fact that was left out of the news reports. The western consuls have received basic training on how to assist and support victims of serious crimes. It is called advocacy. Although some people may say that the absence of a female police officer to interview the alleged victim was a determining factor in the reluctance to provide information, the public health literature says otherwise. What matters most is that there be an strong advocate available to provide emotional support during the questioning. That advocate was available and ensured that medical assistance was made available. Had the alleged victim consented to providing the necessary assault information and then stopped a minute or so in to the interview because it was unbearable I could understand. It happens. Some interviewers have limited skills. but others can show compassion and understanding, even if they are males. Thai women are shy when it comes to sexual issues and yet they report rape in the thousands. These assaults are usually reported to male investigators and the rape kits are usually done by male physicians. The victim wasn't some shrinking violet. She made her living chasing down foreigners trying to sell them time shares. If you have ever seen the foreign women in Patong perched on the backs of motor scooters in action, you will appreciate that they are a rough and tough lot that have no hesitation letting loose profanities and even threatening people when told to piss off. That characteristic does not justify an assault, but what it does suggest is that many of these women are considerably more hardy than a young university student that is attacked on a secluded beach and would be able to provide some basic information as to the circumstances of an attack.

You and many others may find my position discomforting. However, we owe it to those people that are sexually assaulted to be able to respond with no hesitation. A case like this stinks. Either additional information that would clarify circumstances is missing or the allegations are not an accurate account of what actually occurred. For example, when the Daily Mail reports "It is understood that embassy officials arranged for her medical examination, but afterwards decided it would be hopeless to attempt a prosecution," was it because/ the alleged victim was traumatized, or was uncooperative or the consul believed the police would not respond? This is an intentionally inconclusive statement.

I will reiterate one last time; rape is wrong. Sexual assault is wrong. I don't care what the past sexual behaviour was of a victim, it doesn't matter. All people alleging such assaults deserve respect and compassion. However, sometimes people take advantage of people's willngness to help.

You're just blethering now GK posting a lot of ill informed assumptions. How come you know the details of the other six rape cases 'none off which has demonstrated the characteristics of this case?' Oh, no you don't do you.

As for details of what the girl claimed. Of course its all subject to conjecture. But she has not made a public statement, just told a friend what happened. Take it or leave it. As someone pointed the details of it are very odd to make up,

Quite clearly you have a thing about foul mouthed time share people. That's understandable.

Edited January 18, 2011 by andrewdrummond

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Tut tut...no need to get personal G. I am plenty grown up thanks. Anyway, I think that this is my last visit to this thread, it is getting a tad silly.

[hammered]

Tut tut...no need to get personal G. I am plenty grown up thanks. Anyway, I think that this is my last visit to this thread, it is getting a tad silly.

Sadly expat communities have a high percentage of mysogynists and in threads like this that sentiment becomes all too apparent at times.

[Wallaby]

It would be the Hells Angels fault because at no time did you give them the permssion to beat the crap out of you.

It is ok for a girl to find a guy, go back to his room and shag the night away as much as she likes. But the minute she says no, it means no. It is not her fault if in fact she has been raped, no matter how she got herself into the situation.

Geriatrickkid, your scenario would indeed be good reading and it would be perfectly reasonable to be reported. Of course one would expect you to be given a right of reply but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be reported in the first instance. On television and the print media we always have one sided stories, the police in my country, as I'm sure in many others, even have media units to inform the media and public about what has happened to people and the charges laid. Does that make them false? Does that make them true? It doesn't matter, it's simply reporting a claim that has been made.

If the girl makes the claim and the men are found not guilty why should she have to pay recompence. Being not guilty is not the same as being proved innocent. Beyond reasonable doubt is a very high bar to jump and sometimes guilty people get off. It is the old adage that I would rather see 10 guilty persons be free than 1 innocent person in gaol (if only that were true). If we are to 'fine' a complainant every time an accused is found not guilty then we would have even less people laying charges and more and more guilty parties wandering the streets.

The girl made a claim, the media reported that claim. Believe it if you want, disbelieve it if you want. The men can give their version of events if they so wish. Until then we only have her friend's comments. We don't even have the alleged victim's words on it.

So either way, I don't see how anyone can come to a conclusion that something did or did not happen. Just take it as it is, a cautionary tale that something like this could have happened. I just hope that it didn't.

It would be legally the Hell's Angels fault for beating me up, but my fault for being an idiot.

Too many women get drunk, have sex, don't say no, and then accuse the man of rape. His life is ruined, and she remains anonymous.

Hardly justice.

Surely the debate here is whether the press should report everything, whether it is true or not. Reporting lies to sell papers is not an ethical thing to do.

I maintain that no such crime should be reported till the accused is found guilty. That would put a stop to all the sensationalist stories that later turn out to be fabrications.

It would be different of course if a serial rapist was at work, to warn people to take more care, than they should already be exercising.

If a woman makes a false claim of rape, proven to have lied under oath, of course she should have to pay damages. He's lost his job, perhaps his family and home. Why should she walk away without penalty? She's a criminal.

If that happened, perhaps we'd have less false accusations.

NB. While it is a woman's legal right to get drunk off her head, and go with a strange man to his room for casual sex, it does not mean it is wise. At the least, they should go to her room, where a gang of sex crazed thugs will not be lying in wait.

That is not intended to refer to this particular woman, as no one else was there, apart from the alleged gang, so no one on this forum can say what happened.

Being an idiot does not give a person the right to assault you.

How many women remain anonymous in rape cases. I don't know where you are from but in Oz the only reason not to publish a woman's name is when she is a minor. Hardly anonymous.

Yes there are certain times when a woman makes a false claim, yes she does have to pay restitution, that's normal. But no one pays restitution just because of a jury finds a person not guilty.

You don't want a crime reported until a person is found guilty. I too used to consider that a good option until I thought about a person charged with such very serious crimes like rape and pedophilia, where the person has pleaded guilty but still on bail. I'm sure I would want to know if my children where in close proximity to that person.

Actually, just to be cautious, even if the person was only being investigated for child related sex offences I would want to know. However, I do think it is disgusting that vigilante groups try and give their own 'justice' to those charged. I consider the people that do that just as sick minded as the person guilty of the crime.

[jsflynn603]

Though some might say that the "date rape/rape" drug of choice is Roofies (Royphenol) research shows otherwise... it's alcohol.

Women can protect themselves by going out with friends--a group offers safety (especially if one person agrees to limit drinking) whether illegal drugs such as Royphenol are used, or alcohol.

[jbrewer]

In a case of rape the benefit of doubt should go to the victim.

That is all good unless you are the 'alleged' rapist and you are indeed innocent.

exactly. innocent until PROVEN guilty.. but this doesn't make it better for the victim

[harrry]

GeriatricKid. I am somewhat surprised with your statement that even if the woman says no samples will be taken and the tests done. Is this not in itself rape if it invoves penetration without consent. I understood it was not medically acceptible to perform an act of any kind on a person who has said no.

[Wallaby]

I'm sure if the men accused of the rape believe they have been hard done by they themselves can make a complaint agains the girl and she can face charges of a false complaint etc.

Of course if they also believe the newspaper reporting is unfair they can contact the reporter and give their version.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Wallaby

[DP25]

I'm sure if the men accused of the rape believe they have been hard done by they themselves can make a complaint agains the girl and she can face charges of a false complaint etc.

Of course if they also believe the newspaper reporting is unfair they can contact the reporter and give their version.

There are no men accused of anything. The unknown members of this Swedish rape gang are still lurking out there in Phuket ready to strike again

[Moonrakers]

I'm sure if the men accused of the rape believe they have been hard done by they themselves can make a complaint agains the girl and she can face charges of a false complaint etc.

Of course if they also believe the newspaper reporting is unfair they can contact the reporter and give their version.

You assume they even exist.

I find it surprising that so many people will believe a story solely on the back of what one person has said.

[inmysights]

In a case of rape the benefit of doubt should go to the victim.

That is all good unless you are the 'alleged' rapist and you are indeed innocent.

exactly. innocent until PROVEN guilty.. but this doesn't make it better for the victim

I really don't believe any woman would accept an invitation to a party with the addendum that she might be raped by several men as a part of the proceedings/entertainment. Do you?

Edited January 18, 2011 by inmysights

[geriatrickid]

GeriatricKid. I am somewhat surprised with your statement that even if the woman says no samples will be taken and the tests done. Is this not in itself rape if it invoves penetration without consent. I understood it was not medically acceptible to perform an act of any kind on a person who has said no.

If someone goes for a medical exam then that means someone has to meet with the patient. One cannot verify an STI exposure if one doesn't take a culture or some blood. In many cases when the subject is traumatized, the drugs are prescribed without waiting for results or even doing some tests. If someone is raped multiple times by 5 people there is going to be physical damage and obvious evidence.Oone doesn't need consent to collect assailant pubic hairs or perform a non invasive swab if it is done as part of the exam. Consent is implied by agreeing to the exam. Nothing is mentioned about whether there was any evidence of a rape. At this time it is all hearsay. You are correct that one should not perform any tests without patient consent, however, in some countries, informed consent is not always sought. Thailand is one of them. There is nothing sinister in that as it is sometimes done to protect the patient. I find it hard to believe that the subject having alleged a rape by 5 unknown males did not react like most rape victims and express a concern for the potential of HIV or other llness exposure. Was she prescribed PEP?

This isn't about me being a misogynist or being contrary for the sake of being contrary or having a grudge against touts. I know that some victims are so traumatized they can not discuss events. However, in the presence of a trained advocate, they are able to provide important clues about the assault without there being an intrusion into their privacy. The consul is precluded from discussing the case because of privacy issues, but I'm sure the consul has a lot of information that would either support the allegations or shed more doubt. These so called friends of the victim don't seem to be too convincing as friends. What kind of female friends would behave in this manner? One would think they would have responded to support and help her through the event and yet no mention is made of their response. Look back at the past reported rapes on Phuket to get an idea. again, a very unusual response that should raise a red flag.

I suggest people stop fixating on me and my presumed bias and instead take a hard look at the "facts" as presented. There is nothing given to support the allegation. The reason I am so adamant is that people are drawing conclusions about events that are not supported by this event, i.e. that there is a gang of Swedish rapists on the loose or Phuket is dangerous and women are at peril as they walk the street. These are conclusions made on the basis of what? An allegation by a person that needed that had a strong motive to get out of Thailand fast. Maybe a sexual assault occurred. Maybe it didn't, but there is no evidence that this event took place. Nothing. No witnesses, no physical evidence, no timeline, nothing.

[Moonrakers]

Some people just seem to have eliminated the possibility that this girl could just be lying.

I for one am not saying she is definitely lying, after all, how would I know. I suspect she is lying but until proven either way, it will remain a suspicion. But how can others say she is definitely not lying when there is absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise?

It won't be the first time somebody has lied and it certainly won't be the last. It definitely wont be the worst lie ever told either.

So why is it so difficult to understand that this individual could possibly be telling a few porkies to get herself back home? The motive is certainly there!

Edited January 18, 2011 by Moonrakers

[DP25]

It definitely wont be the worst lie ever told either.

So why is it so difficult to understand that this individual could possibly be telling a few porkies to get herself back home? The motive is certainly there!

I'd certainly rather see someone lie to their embassy to get help to go home, which the embassy normally won't give, than to end up jumping off of their balcony like so many others in that situation do every year.

[Moonrakers]

It definitely wont be the worst lie ever told either.

So why is it so difficult to understand that this individual could possibly be telling a few porkies to get herself back home? The motive is certainly there!

I'd certainly rather see someone lie to their embassy to get help to go home, which the embassy normally won't give, than to end up jumping off of their balcony like so many others in that situation do every year.

Yep, I agree.

At least provided that there are no innocent people caught up in it, which is the case in this story. (assuming it is a lie)

Edited January 18, 2011 by Moonrakers

[andrewdrummond]

The assumptions are all yours GK. She was taken for medical examination. How do you know she did not express concern about HIV?

[spectrumisgreen]

I ain't buying it!

Me neither I'm afraid! Sounds too much like she read your 'got a plan as hot as my pants' to get herself home!! Course, I as yourself (I assume) am no expert and 'buying' or 'not buying' such a story is just a personal inclination.. one I'm entitled to have, though, I believe.. don't cops go on 'gut instinct' all the time? (I am carrying enough of a 'paunch' these days!!)

[Wallaby]

GeriatricKid. I am somewhat surprised with your statement that even if the woman says no samples will be taken and the tests done. Is this not in itself rape if it invoves penetration without consent. I understood it was not medically acceptible to perform an act of any kind on a person who has said no.

If someone goes for a medical exam then that means someone has to meet with the patient. One cannot verify an STI exposure if one doesn't take a culture or some blood. In many cases when the subject is traumatized, the drugs are prescribed without waiting for results or even doing some tests. If someone is raped multiple times by 5 people there is going to be physical damage and obvious evidence.Oone doesn't need consent to collect assailant pubic hairs or perform a non invasive swab if it is done as part of the exam. Consent is implied by agreeing to the exam. Nothing is mentioned about whether there was any evidence of a rape. At this time it is all hearsay. You are correct that one should not perform any tests without patient consent, however, in some countries, informed consent is not always sought. Thailand is one of them. There is nothing sinister in that as it is sometimes done to protect the patient. I find it hard to believe that the subject having alleged a rape by 5 unknown males did not react like most rape victims and express a concern for the potential of HIV or other llness exposure. Was she prescribed PEP?

This isn't about me being a misogynist or being contrary for the sake of being contrary or having a grudge against touts. I know that some victims are so traumatized they can not discuss events. However, in the presence of a trained advocate, they are able to provide important clues about the assault without there being an intrusion into their privacy. The consul is precluded from discussing the case because of privacy issues, but I'm sure the consul has a lot of information that would either support the allegations or shed more doubt. These so called friends of the victim don't seem to be too convincing as friends. What kind of female friends would behave in this manner? One would think they would have responded to support and help her through the event and yet no mention is made of their response. Look back at the past reported rapes on Phuket to get an idea. again, a very unusual response that should raise a red flag.

I suggest people stop fixating on me and my presumed bias and instead take a hard look at the "facts" as presented. There is nothing given to support the allegation. The reason I am so adamant is that people are drawing conclusions about events that are not supported by this event, i.e. that there is a gang of Swedish rapists on the loose or Phuket is dangerous and women are at peril as they walk the street. These are conclusions made on the basis of what? An allegation by a person that needed that had a strong motive to get out of Thailand fast. Maybe a sexual assault occurred. Maybe it didn't, but there is no evidence that this event took place. Nothing. No witnesses, no physical evidence, no timeline, nothing.

I think you would be very very hard pressed to find a complaint that didn't have holes in it. You can have 5 people see the same thing and yet give 5 different versions in evidence. Even when someone pleads guilty in a criminal matter there can be a contested sentence because the accused doesn't agree with certain aspects of the complaint.

There is nothing new in having holes in evidence and complainants that are reluctant to make a complaint, gloss over facts that don't seem important to them. To a rape victim (yes I have sat in interviews many times) they relate to the 'main' event, they don't care for the smaller things like the colour of a man's shirt or what music was playing in the background. They tend to think solely of the event that traumatised them. Hence nearly all women that get in the witness box get a good grilling about certain parts of their evidence.

But that doesn't mean they are lying about it. Nor does it mean they are telling the truth, that is for a jury to decide after hearing all the facts.

All Drummond has done is report it. And good on him for doing that. The way you take it is up to you.

[Moonrakers]

According to the Bangkok post, she did have a medical exam which could not confirm an assault took place. Only that she had had sexual intercourse.

Gang raped for 2 hours but no evidence of assault? Make of that what you will!

[Wallaby]

Me neither I'm afraid! Sounds too much like she read your 'got a plan as hot as my pants' to get herself home!! Course, I as yourself (I assume) am no expert and 'buying' or 'not buying' such a story is just a personal inclination.. one I'm entitled to have, though, I believe.. don't cops go on 'gut instinct' all the time? (I am carrying enough of a 'paunch' these days!!)

Just as long as you leave some doughnuts (donuts for the yanks) for me.

[thaibeachlovers]

It would be the Hells Angels fault because at no time did you give them the permssion to beat the crap out of you.

It is ok for a girl to find a guy, go back to his room and shag the night away as much as she likes. But the minute she says no, it means no. It is not her fault if in fact she has been raped, no matter how she got herself into the situation.

Geriatrickkid, your scenario would indeed be good reading and it would be perfectly reasonable to be reported. Of course one would expect you to be given a right of reply but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be reported in the first instance. On television and the print media we always have one sided stories, the police in my country, as I'm sure in many others, even have media units to inform the media and public about what has happened to people and the charges laid. Does that make them false? Does that make them true? It doesn't matter, it's simply reporting a claim that has been made.

If the girl makes the claim and the men are found not guilty why should she have to pay recompence. Being not guilty is not the same as being proved innocent. Beyond reasonable doubt is a very high bar to jump and sometimes guilty people get off. It is the old adage that I would rather see 10 guilty persons be free than 1 innocent person in gaol (if only that were true). If we are to 'fine' a complainant every time an accused is found not guilty then we would have even less people laying charges and more and more guilty parties wandering the streets.

The girl made a claim, the media reported that claim. Believe it if you want, disbelieve it if you want. The men can give their version of events if they so wish. Until then we only have her friend's comments. We don't even have the alleged victim's words on it.

So either way, I don't see how anyone can come to a conclusion that something did or did not happen. Just take it as it is, a cautionary tale that something like this could have happened. I just hope that it didn't.

It would be legally the Hell's Angels fault for beating me up, but my fault for being an idiot.

Too many women get drunk, have sex, don't say no, and then accuse the man of rape. His life is ruined, and she remains anonymous.

Hardly justice.

Surely the debate here is whether the press should report everything, whether it is true or not. Reporting lies to sell papers is not an ethical thing to do.

I maintain that no such crime should be reported till the accused is found guilty. That would put a stop to all the sensationalist stories that later turn out to be fabrications.

It would be different of course if a serial rapist was at work, to warn people to take more care, than they should already be exercising.

If a woman makes a false claim of rape, proven to have lied under oath, of course she should have to pay damages. He's lost his job, perhaps his family and home. Why should she walk away without penalty? She's a criminal.

If that happened, perhaps we'd have less false accusations.

NB. While it is a woman's legal right to get drunk off her head, and go with a strange man to his room for casual sex, it does not mean it is wise. At the least, they should go to her room, where a gang of sex crazed thugs will not be lying in wait.

That is not intended to refer to this particular woman, as no one else was there, apart from the alleged gang, so no one on this forum can say what happened.

Being an idiot does not give a person the right to assault you.

How many women remain anonymous in rape cases. I don't know where you are from but in Oz the only reason not to publish a woman's name is when she is a minor. Hardly anonymous.

Yes there are certain times when a woman makes a false claim, yes she does have to pay restitution, that's normal. But no one pays restitution just because of a jury finds a person not guilty.

You don't want a crime reported until a person is found guilty. I too used to consider that a good option until I thought about a person charged with such very serious crimes like rape and pedophilia, where the person has pleaded guilty but still on bail. I'm sure I would want to know if my children where in close proximity to that person.

Actually, just to be cautious, even if the person was only being investigated for child related sex offences I would want to know. However, I do think it is disgusting that vigilante groups try and give their own 'justice' to those charged. I consider the people that do that just as sick minded as the person guilty of the crime.

Hmmm. If I insult an Hell's Angel, I doubt he would give my "rights" much consideration. If I don't want to get beaten up by an Hell's Angel, I won't insult him in the first place.

In the UK, the gutter press is always publishing lurid stories about wicked, named, men committing sexual crimes against un named women. I don't know if it is illegal to publish the "victim's" name or not, but that is how it is. In many cases, the allegations prove false, but of course it is too late for the man then.

In the case of an accused, if he were judged a probable threat, he should be remanded in custody, but still be granted name suppression, unless proven guilty.

[maxme]

Besides slugging remarks at each other. Take certain facts into consideration.

- The law in Thailand does not work to it's fully extent if at all

- When there are Tsunami warnings in Phang Nga area, some if not most hotels do not notify the guests as they are afraid to lose them.

- Bargirls that end up dead despite being only teenagers have suffered from heart attacks

- Tuk tuk & Taxi mafia runs freely in Phuket

- Besides Brits there are numerous reports about rapes against western citizens but are never followed up. If they are then a Burmese is quickly detained and prosecuted without a fair trial.

- Honking when a driver cuts you off can lead to you being shot and the perp would get a few years in prison.

- If you call 112 (Thailands 911) and speak English will you be helped or do you have to wait for an interpreter?

- How many of the cops in Thailand do actually speak English?

- What kind of authority do the tourist police have? Is it the same as the regular cop?

Looking at Thailand extremely biased and unfair system even to expats whom I might add can't become a Thai citizen if they are not stinking rich it's pretty fair to say that you can rule out fair treatment of the victims here.

I´m not saying that her story doesn´t sound a bit odd but I've seen enough of the so called justice system here to know that if it can hurt the tourism or the Thai image, it's better to play the devil's advocate and win something than lose your face by doing the right thing.