The Airlines Black List Is Finally Out!

[Morbius]

Following the series of recent air crashes this month, France's DGAC (Civil Aviation Authority) has finally published this Monday, August 29th, as promissed, the list of airlines which have been banned from flying to/from France (Black List). This is the first time that this list is officially and publicly published.

The Black List can now be found on DGAC's web site at:

http://www.dgac.fr/html/oservice/Listeinte...ninterdites.pdf

Although this web site is in French, the information (at least, the list) is pretty easy to read even for non French speakers.

Interestingly, 2 Asian airliners figure on this list:

* PHUKET AIRLINES (based in Thailand)

* AIR KORYO (based in North Korea)

Edited August 28, 2005 by Morbius

[dr_Pat_Pong]

None of them are on my list of favourite airlines

[ArtfulD]

Thats the good thing when companies are scrutinized in other countries...no hiding it trying to save Face....same goes for the new airport...if its as bad as its reported to be then airlines will be reluctant to fly in there regardless of any B.S Face Saving by the Thais.

[cdnvic]

So much for my AIR KORYO frequent flyer points.

I'll miss the Gruel Grill @ Pyongyang airport too.

cv

[think_too_mut]

Never thought highly of Phuket Air but could not believe they are world's very rock bottom.

Their planes should be sent back to where they look like they came from - Mojave desert. To rust in peace.

[Cheeky Farang]

PHUKET AIR ALSO BANNED FROM UK AIR SPACE

Foreign Airline Permits

International civil aviation is governed by the Chicago Convention. Under the Convention, the

International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) is responsible for establishing minimum safety

standards which contracting states are required to implement. States are required to recognise the

certificates issued by other contracting states unless they have reason to believe that they have not

been issued in accordance with ICAO standards. ICAO also audits contracting states' aviation

authorities to help identify and address any deficiencies in the implementation of international

standards.

Any airline from outside the EU, Iceland, Norway or Switzerland which wishes to pick up or put

down passengers or cargo in the UK requires a permit from the Secretary of State for Transport. It is a

condition of the permit that the airline should be operated in accordance with international safety

standards established by ICAO.

If we have doubts about whether an aircraft or airline complies with international safety standards we

will arrange for the aircraft to be inspected by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA). Permits may be

refused, and existing permits suspended or revoked by the Secretary of State. This may occur where

there is a breach of a permit condition, which would include non-compliance with international safety

standards; however action can also be taken for reasons other than safety. Permit decisions will be

reviewed in the light of new information or changed circumstances.

Currently the Secretary of State is refusing or would refuse to issue permits to aircraft registered in or

operated by the airlines with an Air Operators Certificate from any of the states listed below because

of evidence that they are not receiving adequate regulatory oversight from their national aviation

authorities:

Democratic Republic of the Congo

Equatorial Guinea

Liberia

Sierra Leone

Swaziland

Tajikistan

In addition, the Secretary of State has suspended or refused permits to the following airlines:

Air Mauritanie (Mauritania) because of operational safety concerns.

Phoenix Aviation (Kyrgyzstan) because of doubts about the airline's principal place of business.

Phuket Airlines (Thailand) because of operational safety concerns.

It should be noted that these airlines may be permitted to offer services to the UK, and issued with a

permit, if these services are contracted out and operated by another airline.

The Department does not review the safety of airlines which do not operate to the UK; however, if

information is available on such airlines it will be reflected in the Foreign Office's country specific

travel advice, which can be found at:

www.fco.gov.uk

[Morbius]

Shortly after France, Belgium has published its own Black List of airlines banned from flying to Belgium for safety reasons on August 29th.

This list can be found on the site of the Federal Government of Belgium:

* in French: http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/data/aero/foaipef.pdf

* in Dutch: http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/data/aero/foaipen.pdf

No English version available apparently, but the document is easy to read, just see the list at the end. No Asian airliner this time.

[tso310]

There's a Phuket Air B747 going cheap at Gatwick if anybody is interested. Well maintained by previous owner.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

A genuine 7 owner unit too Can you get permission to fly it out of the UK ?

[TokyoT]

Now shouldn’t the Thai government stand up for Phuket Airlines and ban all French from entering Thailand?

[bdenner]

Now there's the pot calling the kettle black. Bloody arrogant froggys determining the safety standards of others when they still flaunt international standards by using the French language during air traffic control operations. There has been a number of ground accidents and near misses because of the confusion this creates – all very well documented.

[cdnvic]

A genuine 7 owner unit too   Can you get permission to fly it out of the UK ?

If not, no big deal, it was going to wind up in the water sooner or later.

cv

[Soph]

I didnt see Lao Aviation on that list, I though they were meant to be one of the dodgy airlines?

[cdnvic]

I didnt see Lao Aviation on that list, I though they were meant to be one of the dodgy airlines?

As of late they've gotten newer aircraft and I believe they've contracted out their maintnence. Still wouldn't take one of their commuters tough.

cv

[think_too_mut]

I didnt see Lao Aviation on that list, I though they were meant to be one of the dodgy airlines?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They have 1 new Airbus and I think it was somewhere in the press that critical parts of the company (maintenance, piloting...) were run by French expats.

[DaveYo]

Hmmmm, it is interesting to note however, that Phutket Air did not fly to France as of yet, but had plans to have some flights there. Now they get banned because they get word from the Brits saying something about their operational saftey problems and the recent crashes from other airliners around the world the past 6 months as one of their reasons to ban Phuket Air!!!!!!!!!! What their saying is Phuket Air is supposed to be responsible for the other airliners crashes too!!!!! Get a load of this BS from the French side.

What most of you folks don't know is the real McCoy problems all the airlines are having and still have going on today, yet they don't get blacklisted because of patronage deals and of their business size etc.

I can name a few operational problems that United has, American Airlines has, Asiana Has and even JAL has, and also especially the French planes have and include the Brit's aircraft.

These are serious enough to require grounding of their own aircraft, yet it passes the permits and are allowed to fly.

Many have emergency doors that do not even work. Many do not maintain the schedules of maintenance and they stretch it a mile wide before calling them in. Many do the short cuts on the screws, on the fuselage, and even the engines. Quite frankly I am still astonished and very surprised that these planes have not gone down hard as of yet. Some have huge punctures on the tires, and they ignore the warnings. How do i know all this, I deal with it and tell it to those captains myself. Nothing I can do when they refuse maintenance since it is Captains discretion to allow or not. Only way I can bypass this is contact airline headquarters and make the request to ground it, and I think you folks out there know the rest cause they are not going to ground it because the emergency door does not work, or a huge puncture is on the tire, or if the engine has loose wiring etc. You tell me.

If they do ground it, now watch the reaction of the passengers, how they bitch and moan and groan, and now you got to provide them lodging and extras and so on and so forth. Not to mention dangerous bad PR right around the corner and the eyes of the FAA inspectors etc.

Give me a Concorde that did not have a problem and I will show you their awful maintenance history and problems and it is Both Frenchie and Brits aircraft. Get the point. The last one that went down doomed them permanently.

As far as Phuket Air, they got discriminated by the French based on the Brits say so. As of their problem in Korea, according to the contract with TV Club, as I reviewed recently Phuket is not responsible for TV Clubs DEBTS.

Let me explain a bit here. Every airline has other operational support services that provide catering or provide the fuel to the aircraft and much more. TV Club is a risky business because they base their operational revenue profits based on passenger revenue. When Phutket Air saw that their route to Korea is not making profit for them, due to lack of passenger revenue etc, Phuket Air has the exclusive right to suspend any further flights to that country and can call back their aircraft home. If you read the complaint from TV Club their suit is based on this issue. Secondly the Korean Court has no Jurisdiction to ground such aircraft via court order because another Business lossed their earnings and profit. To make it short, TV Club is trying to re-coup their losses by suing Phuket Air to cough up ADDITIONAL MONEY so that they can stay above water or they will go bankrupt. Third, the contracts were signed and sealed in Thailand and not in Korea. So the Jurisdiction of such suit is in the wrong territory which if TV Club wanted to sue correctly they would have to do it in Thailand.

As a result of this dispute Phuket Air is losing over 6,000 usa dollars per day as it sits there in Korea. Now start multiplying that each day ---- something has to give.

Can you blame the owners for throwing in the towel?????? Because of bad PR coming from the frickin French and Indians and Brits??????? and now include Korea. Never the less it is sad to see an executive give up his will to keep his company going. Just got word that they changed their minds about 30 minutes ago. Good news indeed.

If any of you can do better give it a shot and get that plane home and do the PR too. Otherwise hold back your judgment and do some fact finding as things come about from time to time.

I also do believe the fuel costs now is very serious and it is going to really break the bank of many airlines soon, and they are gong to force the public to pay for such cost of the fuel. Once the ticket prices begin to rise higher and higher like gasoline does sooner or later the passenger loads will be near non existent., and now the public will really start complaining. Most will start using their free mileage perks to save money. Once that is gone, well many airlines will go and claim bankruptcy and seek government help from their creditors. It looks like it is heading to the same situation as back in the early 90's.

how long will it take for this to happen. Give it 6 to 8 months tops.

To the admins here, this is an unbiased opinion of mine, so don't crucify me. Some of it is my predictions cause I can see it coming right smack down the pipe, and trust me there is no way out of it. All of us are going to see this happening very soon. Many of the airlines make fuel contracts on a year to year basis which is done around fall. Many of these contracts will expire soon so viola watch the surcharges begin to rise on your tickets. To get a ticket fare R/T of 24,000 Baht to L.A. without taxes and surcharges is soon going to disappear.

[cdnvic]

It makes more sense to ban Phuket Air with all the evidence stacked up against it. No use waiting until 400 die as one of their decrepit 747s plummet from the skies.

cv

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hear hear cv

[DaveYo]

It makes more sense to ban Phuket Air with all the evidence stacked up against it. No use waiting until 400 die as one of their decrepit 747s plummet from the skies.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK Cv, you say it makes more sense to ban Phuket Air etc. Now tell me just what evidence you claim happens to be stacked up on it and prove to me that all the other airlines including the biggies don't have such a problem.

Hmm, how about American Airlines recently crashing in South America, or how about China Air crashing in the sea, or how about Alaska Air crashing out in the Pacific a few years back or just recently Indonesian Air crashing and killing over 130 people.

Guess what, I can prove you wrong as fast as you make a claim.

How's this, Phuket Air has not crashed yet, and they do have 747 fleet that is comparable of same as the other biggies in the business.

So guess who is doing the dirty PR against Phuket!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You name it ----> Thank you.

I cannot mention such here cause of censorship.

Ditto.

[The_Moog]

Phuket Air did threaten to sue the passengers who pointed out that the jet engines were on fire on the runway, leading to an aborted take-off.

That wasn't very good PR there Dave.

[cdnvic]

Guess what, I can prove you wrong as fast as you make a claim.

How's this,  Phuket Air has not crashed yet, and they do have 747 fleet that is comparable of same as the other biggies in the business.

Some of their 747s are old 100 and 200 series jets from the 70s. NONE of the mainlines are flying those anymore for passenger service.

cv

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Dave doesn't bother about the facts of the matter

[TVLover]

To me, it is precisely because Phuket Air has never crashed that it is even more worrysome...

Just look at it this way: yes, this airline never had a crash (although it had serious incidents). Yet, it is now banned from flying by the aviation authorities of 3 major countries: France, UK and the Netherlands. Isn't it enough to tell potential passengers that there is just an accident waiting to happen and they are trying to avoid it?

Edited September 8, 2005 by TVLover

[Morbius]

DGAC has added one more airline company to its list of banned airlines yesterday: Cameroon Airlines. The reason they gave was safety. The full list can be consulted on the DGAC web site at the same page: http://www.dgac.fr/html/oservice/Listeinte...ninterdites.pdf