Rally At Bangkok's Ratchaprasong

[asiawatcher]

Despite their earnest struggle for democracy, one of the main reasons the red shirts have not been able to win over the middle-class people in the urban areas and to expand beyond just the loyalists of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra is because their lack of consideration for others.

That and their inability to communicate any meaningful proposals regarding solutions to ANY of Thailand's problems. And saying they have "lack of consideration for others" is either a huge understatement and/or a lie as some of their actions seem to indicate they clearly consider others in their choices to hurt, intimidate and/or inconvenience others..

I also question the reporters use of the words, "earnest struggle for democracy" as I think their claimed objectives for democracy remains very questionable based on both the words and actions of their leaders.

Could not agree more. Inconvenience to the masses resulting in lost revenues and jobs - they won't get any vote I know.

[Nisa]

But the problem is the Reds don't take a stand in regards to making things better for the poor except for their continued broken record demand of what the think is democracy. Their demands back in April were not to better the lives of the poor but simply to disband the current government immediately at any cost to the country. The cannot be taken seriously as being interested in democracy when their only agenda is to oust the leaders in charge if they are not those they want. Maybe they do believe in the struggle of the poor based on their choosing Red as their color and the number of communist Red Star caps I see at the rallies and if their goal is to make Thailand a communist nation then this may explain the lack of any proposed policies or grievances beyond trying to overthrow the government.

Yes, people are aware of the class struggles in Thailand AND MOST DO CARE but the answer is not the reds as they have blown all credibility. A more moderate fraction needs to break off from this group in order for the poor to be represented seriously and allow others to understand what it is they want and how they believe it can happen. The truth of the matter is people who are not Reds are by far not yellows. The vast majority of people I know in BKK do not at all consider themselves Yellows but do support Abhisit and do think the Reds are either lunatics or too ignorant or selfish to care what their leaders are doing to them.

I don't think any reasonable person could be other than disappointed in the quality of Red leadership.However your comments are politically rather naive and in places fatuous (your commie gibes) and there is no indication from what you say why there was a massive and general welcome for the Reds in Bangkok before it all went pear shaped.It's not for you or I to talk patronisingly of the need for "moderate factions" to break off.Yes there was a demand for the Government to hold elections - hardly surprising given the outrageous bias shown by the various organs of state (I am being deliberately vague) in shoring up elite interests.I support Abhisit as well but it doesn't mean I don't sympathise with the Red movement.

Your comment about people initially coming out to welcome the reds only goes to prove my point more. Initially people assumed they were about unity and helping bring more opportunity to all in Thailand. I was even out on the street those early days they were parading but they have lost that support. They are done and IN MY OPINION anyone who continues to support "their" cause is doing it because of what they "want to believe" they reds represent and not judging the reds goals on their actions and own words.

And to be clear when I say those who still supports them I am talking about average people not those taking part in their sieges of the commercial district. Those folks have a list of different agendas and issues ranging from profiting by a quick pay day to being brainwashed to name just a few.

No informed and rational person can continue to support the current reds. To do so means you need to make some huge assumptions, that go against their own words and actions, to believe their goals have anything to do with Thailand's best interests ... unless you believe in communism and/or dictatorship.

[Emptyset]

If you can still support the reds after their tactics (and continued tactics) then you are far more "right wing" than I am. (Using hanuman's terms ---- neither right-wing nor left-wing seem to clearly apply in Thailand imho)

Yeah, because supporting a military coup and a crackdown are traditionally "left wing" positions. We don't need to go into all the justifications for the coup and the crackdown again, either. I don't support either set of elites, song mai ao. I've slammed the likes of Jatuporn and Thaksin elsewhere far more than I have Abhisit. Just since this board is mostly anti-red, I feel it's right to mostly focus on trying to redress the balance somewhat. But I'll agree with anyone, whichever side they seem to be on, if I think they're correct about specific issues.

I haven't disagreed with much of what anyone here has said about Jatuporn or Thaksin, for instance. Though just because I personally dislike Thaksin doesn't mean I think everything he's ever done has been bad. And just because the UDD leadership was a collective failure and some individuals within the UDD leadership bear at least as much responsibility as the government for the crackdown doesn't mean that I don't support some people that are part of the broad red shirt movement. What do you have against Kru Prateep or Sombat, for instance? And I believe most of the ordinary protests were expressing their genuine frustration, doing it for the right reasons but were let down, both by the leadership (and moreover, people Thaksin got involved, like Seh Daeng and Panlop) and by some people on their side - certainly a minority overall - who decided violence was the solution.

As to the situation as a whole, disregarding methods. Who is right? I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Reds say a lot of ludicrous stuff which I totally disagree with, but so do government supporters. Nothing particularly wrong with being yellow either. The fast majority of them can't be described as "fascist" and they've also got their valid reasons to protest. But it doesn't matter what I think. Reds are not going to go away, so I just hope people can peacefully discuss their differences.

[jdinasia]

There was a "massive and general welcome for the reds before it went pearshaped"? Wow! They proclaim a million will be there but in a city of between 8-12 million they could get a total of 100,000 (mostly paid and trucked in) but hey ... that's a massive and general welcome!

As for connections between the reds and communism you need only look at Thida and Weng. Both actively involved with the Maoist CPT in the past.

Of course it is for people to speak out calling for moderates (or perhaps a better description would be genuine reds,) that care about the plight of the rural poor in all of Thailand (not just Thaksin's bases of support in the North and NE.)

That some people would think that the reds as they exist at the current time have ANY credibility at all, need only look to Thida the proclaimed leader of the UDD, showing up at court with 21 million baht in CASH. Not to bail out the people that fell for the crazed rhetoric of the red shirt leaders and were still in jail .... noooooo ... not for "the people", Just for the leaders that are being held on charges of terrorism, incitement to riot, and other charges.

It is both "fatuous" and "politically naive" to not lay the events of April and May directly at the feet of the redshirt leadership and by extension at the feet of the reds that supported them, for allowing armed insurgents in their midst, and in the end for pushing things so far that their followers burned targets all over BKK and other places in Thailand.

connections to communism explored further in these articles

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Links-suspected-between-red-shirts-30101571.html (2009)

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html 2010

even the leftist PPT makes the connection loosely (then says "so are they" when referring to the PAD) but they skip over Weng's public comments and focus on Seh Daeng's ---- at least they use the word "war. They then glossed over the use of maoist tactics by labelling Thaksin as a capitalist. (well ... duh! you don't have to be maoist now to use the maoist tactics that worked so well in mobilizing peasants in the past!)

http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/05/18/red-shirts-as-communists/ (may 18 2010)

hell even karlmarx.net ran an incredibly biased article about the reds

But no ---- of course it is fatuous to make ANY links between the Reds and communists or more accurately Maoist tactics.

[Emptyset]

But the problem is the Reds don't take a stand in regards to making things better for the poor except for their continued broken record demand of what the think is democracy. Their demands back in April were not to better the lives of the poor but simply to disband the current government immediately at any cost to the country.

People knew they wanted the government out before they came to Bangkok. And what would've been the "cost" to the country of the government stepping down? One thing is a few of my middle class friends came out to support the reds at first, too, but quickly dropped their support as soon as things started to get violent. One later even joined the "multicolour" thing. But even these friends, who aren't very partisan at all, it must be said, are starting to soften again towards the reds now that there's been no violence for a while. But they want to hear more concrete ideas from the red leadership before they'll offer any kind of support again and Jatuporn is also a major turn-off. I must admit I'm a bit surprised because these people were furious at the red leadership yet mostly refused to blame the ordinary protesters. Yet many on here lump them all in together. I'd say Thais are quite forgiving in general. Not sure whether that's always a good thing. Most likely the reason that reds lost support from these people was mostly related to the violence.

The cannot be taken seriously as being interested in democracy when their only agenda is to oust the leaders in charge if they are not those they want. Maybe they do believe in the struggle of the poor based on their choosing Red as their color and the number of communist Red Star caps I see at the rallies and if their goal is to make Thailand a communist nation then this may explain the lack of any proposed policies or grievances beyond trying to overthrow the government.

What makes you think they'll try to oust a properly elected leader? I don't think any of them, not even Comrade Surachai, think communism is the answer these days. Most wearing the hats probably just like the symbol rather than really knowing what it represents. Or they wear it because Surachai does. One red shirt guy I know, one of the staff at a small restaurant, goes around wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt. He doesn't have a clue who Guevara was.

No informed and rational person can continue to support the current reds. To do so means you need to make some huge assumptions, that go against their own words and actions, to believe their goals have anything to do with Thailand's best interests ... unless you believe in communism and/or dictatorship.

Well it'll be in Thailand's interests in the long-run if the military and (for want of a better word) amaat stop meddling in politics and let democracy run its course. That's what most of the red shirts want. But it has to be said that people would be more inclined to agree with them on that if they didn't give their support to thugs & nak leng who don't deserve it. If only PAD's desire for a cleaner politics and the red shirt desire for influential people to respect the wishes of the electorate could be somehow combined.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Emptyset

[Emptyset]

That some people would think that the reds as they exist at the current time have ANY credibility at all, need only look to Thida the proclaimed leader of the UDD, showing up at court with 21 million baht in CASH. Not to bail out the people that fell for the crazed rhetoric of the red shirt leaders and were still in jail .... noooooo ... not for "the people", Just for the leaders that are being held on charges of terrorism, incitement to riot, and other charges.

One thing, many of the people that believed the "crazed rhetoric" committed actual crimes, like arson. Should the red shirt leadership really be trying to free arsonists? No, but they should be offering more help, I'd agree. Once again it seems to be the red splinter groups that've tried to help the ordinary prisoners whilst the mainstream UDD leadership has mostly ignored them. However, this 21 million baht... What does that have to do with anything? It's not her money is it? Do you know where she got it? How do you know the families and friends of those leaders didn't stump up the money themselves? I know Veera's family borrowed money to pay for his bail.

Also, if state organs jailed people unfairly, as has been reported, shouldn't it be the government's job to investigate this and help those who need it? To be fair, that's been happening now, after a long delay. We've had reports of torture and forced confessions, yet I've not heard you say anything about that at all.

[Nisa]

I think it is incorrect to pretend it was some minority who were law breaking, intimidating and/or violent. The burning of the buildings may have been done by a minority (that is all it takes to set a building a blaze) but there were too many times that Red leaders had to try to pull the mob back after inciting them to do harm. I can't even remember all the violence & law breaking they did but I consider acts of storming and surrounding government buildings with the intent of intimidation as acts of violence, Be it intimidating the election commission or forcing MPs to flee for their safety. I truly believe any rational person would have dispersed early on when the first violent confrontation took place or at minimum when they continued lawful orders to disperse were given ... there was simply nothing left to be gained and it was clear their leaders already turned down the offer for elections at the end of the year and there was NO WAY the house would be disbanded immediately.

I also think it is vastly incorrect to pretend those against the Reds are for the yellows and believe a large portion of these middle minded people would support leadership from the North if they acted like they could lead Thailand and better the country..

[Buchholz]

And what do you mean, continue to lose ground? They just had a rally with like, 40,000... not much evidence to suggest they've lost much support at all. PTP are a different matter.

50% of her proclaimed number that would be attending is a failing grade for the professor.

An "F" grade and indicative of "losing ground."

.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Buchholz

[jdinasia]

Emptyset ----

Without Thaksin and his minions (the redshirt leaders) there is no "broader redshirt movement." I have said it before and will say it again ... I would support a grassroots, bottom-up, movement to deal with many of the inequities in the rural regions (particularly) in Thailand. Properly funded universal healthcare, land reform, a stranger basic social net for the poor (other than temples and mosques), education reform, and some things not even the reds would speak up for, such as naturalization of the hilltribe peoples that have lived here forever .... Infrastructure improvements nationwide in rural area etc. The thing is there just isn't the taxbase for some of this to happen fast. The new taxes proposed by Abhisit to tax large swathes of undeveloped land (raises taxes or opens land up for use etc) can't pay for it all. Too many new taxes and you kill investment and growth etc ... so you start as you can. You do it methodically over decades

Reds as a movement need to "go away", reform without the lunacy that is leading them now, and they could and should be a political force in Thailand. Remember that in the West we have developed institutions that resist change and keep things moving at a pace that society as a whole can accept. The same will have to happen here.

[Emptyset]

But no ---- of course it is fatuous to make ANY links between the Reds and communists or more accurately Maoist tactics.

It's not fatuous but it is a total red herring (lol). The ex-communists within the red leadership are the ones far more likely to advocate peace. It's the generals that are close to Thaksin who're far more likely responsible for designing a strategy of violence. People want to play up the communist angle because most Thais - at least those who can remember as far back as the 70s/80s - are still a little suspicious of communists, even though many of them are now very well respected figures. The main sources that are quoted in both articles you linked are both PAD, they'd have good reason to suggest that there was a UDD strategy to use violence & create chaos.

I believe there actually was such a strategy, which we saw being played out on April 10th, but I'm just saying it wasn't planned by any leftists and I'm not sure, which, if any, of the other (non-leftist) UDD leadership were involved in planning it, or if they even knew about it.

[Buchholz]

I did not say colluding, did I? Putting words in my mouth there, aren't you.

What I meant was since all that poster has obviously read is the one sided, half truths produced by Amsterdam and Amsterdam never mentions the fact that the UDD leadership and funders are part of the "elite" he would be stumped for an answer.

TH

I said that because you've been rolling on about Amsterdam before... I think the vast majority of people sympathetic to reds will have been sympathetic to them before Amsterdam appeared on the scene (why bother reading him if you're not already sympathetic?), and Amsterdam hasn't really made difference at all to them.

His law firm was the one that took their case and filed the crimes against humanity nonsense against Abhisit.

That makes him their Red Class Action Lawyer, but I can understand why you might want to try and distance the Reds from the discredited lawyer... because he's discredited.

[Nisa]

People knew they wanted the government out before they came to Bangkok. And what would've been the "cost" to the country of the government stepping down? One thing is a few of my middle class friends came out to support the reds at first, too, but quickly dropped their support as soon as things started to get violent. One later even joined the "multicolour" thing. But even these friends, who aren't very partisan at all, it must be said, are starting to soften again towards the reds now that there's been no violence for a while. But they want to hear more concrete ideas from the red leadership before they'll offer any kind of support again and Jatuporn is also a major turn-off. I must admit I'm a bit surprised because these people were furious at the red leadership yet mostly refused to blame the ordinary protesters. Yet many on here lump them all in together. I'd say Thais are quite forgiving in general. Not sure whether that's always a good thing. Most likely the reason that reds lost support from these people was mostly related to the violence.

What makes you think they'll try to oust a properly elected leader? I don't think any of them, not even Comrade Surachai, think communism is the answer these days. Most wearing the hats probably just like the symbol rather than really knowing what it represents. Or they wear it because Surachai does. One red shirt guy I know, one of the staff at a small restaurant, goes around wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt. He doesn't have a clue who Guevara was.

Well it'll be in Thailand's interests in the long-run if the military and (for want of a better word) amaat stop meddling in politics and let democracy run its course. That's what most of the red shirts want. But it has to be said that people would be more inclined to agree with them on that if they didn't give their support to thugs & nak leng who don't deserve it. If only PAD's desire for a cleaner politics and the red shirt desire for influential people to respect the wishes of the electorate could be somehow combined.

Abhisit was properly elected and believe he is the 3rd elected prime minister since Thaksin. There are too many courts and bodies to protest to legally about these things and when you lose in these settings it is time to accept your loses and move on to help the people you represent under these guidelines. And if you really believe there is not serious undertones and connections with communism from the reds then you should do some more research not say they are so ignorant that they don't even understand the symbols they are sporting at these gatherings as that certainly doesn't do more to help them gain respect. I too know many people only want to lay blame on the leaders and not the actual mobs following them but you know and I know it is because they think these folks in the mob are a bunch of ignorant uneducated manipulated fools that need to be felt sorry for. Again, my point is that the Reds cannot and will not successfully change this country positively. They not only need new leadership but a new color to distance themselves as much as possible from the reds who have caused huge and unneeded divisions of hate within Thailand.

All the things people say they Reds stand for is great but it is only people outside the Red movement I hear saying these things. I think myself, like so many, would love to see a group emerge who actually has goals for the betterment of Thailand beyond the sole objective of immediate house dissolution and to free their mob inciting leaders who led their people to a slaughter.

[Emptyset]

Reds as a movement need to "go away", reform without the lunacy that is leading them now, and they could and should be a political force in Thailand. Remember that in the West we have developed institutions that resist change and keep things moving at a pace that society as a whole can accept. The same will have to happen here.

Perhaps that'll happen eventually. Perhaps after the election. But now reds have got immediate things to protest about - like freeing the leaders & demanding the DSI release the reports on April/May - that sort of thing.

Are you saying Thailand doesn't have institutions that resist change? I thought that was one of the main problems, if not the main problem... in fact, if not the crux of it all.

[jdinasia]

That some people would think that the reds as they exist at the current time have ANY credibility at all, need only look to Thida the proclaimed leader of the UDD, showing up at court with 21 million baht in CASH. Not to bail out the people that fell for the crazed rhetoric of the red shirt leaders and were still in jail .... noooooo ... not for "the people", Just for the leaders that are being held on charges of terrorism, incitement to riot, and other charges.

One thing, many of the people that believed the "crazed rhetoric" committed actual crimes, like arson. Should the red shirt leadership really be trying to free arsonists? No, but they should be offering more help, I'd agree. Once again it seems to be the red splinter groups that've tried to help the ordinary prisoners whilst the mainstream UDD leadership has mostly ignored them. However, this 21 million baht... What does that have to do with anything? It's not her money is it? Do you know where she got it? How do you know the families and friends of those leaders didn't stump up the money themselves? I know Veera's family borrowed money to pay for his bail.

Also, if state organs jailed people unfairly, as has been reported, shouldn't it be the government's job to investigate this and help those who need it? To be fair, that's been happening now, after a long delay. We've had reports of torture and forced confessions, yet I've not heard you say anything about that at all.

I think you are tripping yourself up Emptyset --- you say "many of the people that believed the crazed rhetoric committed actual crimes, like arson" --- Then of course they should stay in jail with their leaders. They were following ..... Sadly there are a number of people still in jail that likely have no more connection to the red violence than they were collecting a daily stipend (payment) and lazing in the heat. They ARE the redshirts. If there is no proof against them then their lawyers should get them out. If there is minimal evidence against them they should be granted bail. These things take money and they were, even if paid, the reds in the area. Yes the government should (and has tried) to help some of them ... but they are the redshirts. Who should care about them most? Who was claiming to be trying to help the poor etc ... (whilst their political platform consisted of 2 planks. Dissolve parliament now. Bring back Thaksin. (Nothing about helping the poor in any of that!)

[jdinasia]

Reds as a movement need to "go away", reform without the lunacy that is leading them now, and they could and should be a political force in Thailand. Remember that in the West we have developed institutions that resist change and keep things moving at a pace that society as a whole can accept. The same will have to happen here.

Perhaps that'll happen eventually. Perhaps after the election. But now reds have got immediate things to protest about - like freeing the leaders & demanding the DSI release the reports on April/May - that sort of thing.

Are you saying Thailand doesn't have institutions that resist change? I thought that was one of the main problems, if not the main problem... in fact, if not the crux of it all.

such as "freeing the leaders" ....gads

[jdinasia]

But no ---- of course it is fatuous to make ANY links between the Reds and communists or more accurately Maoist tactics.

It's not fatuous but it is a total red herring (lol). The ex-communists within the red leadership are the ones far more likely to advocate peace. It's the generals that are close to Thaksin who're far more likely responsible for designing a strategy of violence. People want to play up the communist angle because most Thais - at least those who can remember as far back as the 70s/80s - are still a little suspicious of communists, even though many of them are now very well respected figures. The main sources that are quoted in both articles you linked are both PAD, they'd have good reason to suggest that there was a UDD strategy to use violence & create chaos.

I believe there actually was such a strategy, which we saw being played out on April 10th, but I'm just saying it wasn't planned by any leftists and I'm not sure, which, if any, of the other (non-leftist) UDD leadership were involved in planning it, or if they even knew about it.

Jaran is pretty clear about it ...

From the AT article I posted above .....

UDD organizer Jaran Dittapichai told this correspondent that the protest group had adopted "Mao Zedong's method of thinking" and some of his techniques, including the establishment of a united front. "I was a communist and several leaders were former communists ... but the red shirt people don't like communism or socialism. We use his principles to build up our front and to work with people who are not red shirts, but who are fighting for democracy like us."

Again it is a question of tactics .... not of ideals

[Nisa]

One of the many protesters who I assume had no idea what he was wearing nor did any Red Leader tell those wearing such communist garb or selling it at the rally to stop as this is not what the RED movement is about ...

Keep in mind I am making no comment on a democratic socialist or communist Thai state being good or bad but believe a group such as The Reds should make their political ideology known directly and honestly.

Interesting read on the communist tactics the reds have employed ...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

[Buchholz]

There was a "massive and general welcome for the reds before it went pearshaped"? Wow! They proclaim a million will be there but in a city of between 8-12 million they could get a total of 100,000 (mostly paid and trucked in) but hey ... that's a massive and general welcome!

As for connections between the reds and communism you need only look at Thida and Weng. Both actively involved with the Maoist CPT in the past.

Of course it is for people to speak out calling for moderates (or perhaps a better description would be genuine reds,) that care about the plight of the rural poor in all of Thailand (not just Thaksin's bases of support in the North and NE.)

That some people would think that the reds as they exist at the current time have ANY credibility at all, need only look to Thida the proclaimed leader of the UDD, showing up at court with 21 million baht in CASH. Not to bail out the people that fell for the crazed rhetoric of the red shirt leaders and were still in jail .... noooooo ... not for "the people", Just for the leaders that are being held on charges of terrorism, incitement to riot, and other charges.

It is both "fatuous" and "politically naive" to not lay the events of April and May directly at the feet of the redshirt leadership and by extension at the feet of the reds that supported them, for allowing armed insurgents in their midst, and in the end for pushing things so far that their followers burned targets all over BKK and other places in Thailand.

connections to communism explored further in these articles

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Links-suspected-between-red-shirts-30101571.html (2009)

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html 2010

even the leftist PPT makes the connection loosely (then says "so are they" when referring to the PAD) but they skip over Weng's public comments and focus on Seh Daeng's ---- at least they use the word "war. They then glossed over the use of maoist tactics by labelling Thaksin as a capitalist. (well ... duh! you don't have to be maoist now to use the maoist tactics that worked so well in mobilizing peasants in the past!)

http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/05/18/red-shirts-as-communists/ (may 18 2010)

hell even karlmarx.net ran an incredibly biased article about the reds

But no ---- of course it is fatuous to make ANY links between the Reds and communists or more accurately Maoist tactics.

No shortage of Communism in the Somyot's Red Publications:

[Emptyset]

Abhisit was properly elected and believe he is the 3rd elected prime minister since Thaksin. There are too many courts and bodies to protest to legally about these things and when you lose in these settings it is time to accept your loses and move on to help the people you represent under these guidelines.

He wasn't elected by winning a plurality in a general election. Some consider that improper. I'm sure in the UK or any parliamentary system there'd be major complaints if things had happened like they did in Thailand. In the last UK election, which was a hung parliament, there was a chance for the "loser" (OK the party who came second) to form a coalition, but even the people from the party that lost considered it undemocratic. The consensus was that the party that won most seats should form the government.

But it's just not comparable, really. It's not just the way he came to power either, it's the way it's perceived. Most think the PAD who the army refused to do anything about had a major role in Abhisit coming to power. Anyway, all I can say is that leaders have resigned for far less reason than Abhisit had to resign (in my opinion) in the west. If I were him I'd have had an election as soon as possible after the red uprising in 2009. Anyone with any foresight could see that there'd be a similar uprising sooner or later.

And if you really believe there is not serious undertones and connections with communism from the reds then you should do some more research not say they are so ignorant that they don't even understand the symbols they are sporting at these gatherings as that certainly doesn't do more to help them gain respect. I too know many people only want to lay blame on the leaders and not the actual mobs following them but you know and I know it is because they think these folks in the mob are a bunch of ignorant uneducated manipulated fools that need to be felt sorry for. Again, my point is that the Reds cannot and will not successfully change this country positively. They not only need new leadership but a new color to distance themselves as much as possible from the reds who have caused huge and unneeded divisions of hate within Thailand.

All the things people say they Reds stand for is great but it is only people outside the Red movement I hear saying these things. I think myself, like so many, would love to see a group emerge who actually has goals for the betterment of Thailand beyond the sole objective of immediate house dissolution and to free their mob inciting leaders who led their people to a slaughter.

Not all of them are ignorant, but for sure much of the communist iconography is more symbolic than meaningful. And even the ex-communist leaders aren't actually promoting communism any more. I've seen no indication any of them actually still believe in it as a form of government. Also, you have to appreciate that not everyone that joined the CPT was a communist in the first place.

Anyway, I do blame the mobs. I was actually one of the ones that said regardless of what the leaders said, people need to take responsibility for their actions, and if they committed criminal acts, they should pay for it. However, riots take place in all countries, and things often turn violent way before the red shirt protests got violent. Often on day one in Europe. Vast majority of red shirts didn't riot or go on an arson spree, they went to the Wat. But in other areas of the city, some of the protesters were in a fury that couldn't be controlled:

"At 1.20pm, upon being told that red-shirt leaders at Rajprasong Intersection have decided to turn themselves to the police "in order to save lives", those red shirts who gathered at Klong Toey delta became very upset at the young messenger on stage. "If you won't fight then get out!" a protester shouts at the man."We won't give up easily and if the leaders won't fight then we shall fight by ourselves. Anger burst out.

One doubted if the speaker was a real red shirt ornot as they refuse to believe what they heard.

The young announcer was harassed and soon those running the stage at Klong Toey delta lost control as some men began smashing shop window of CP Fresh Mart and K Bank which red shirts regarded as supporters of their political enemy.

Prateep Ungsongtham Hata, leader of the Klong Toey stage tried to calm the crowd down but to no avail."

"By then anarchy have already engulfed Klong Toey delta. The crowd of a thousand strong began spreading out to vent their anger.

Some fire at the Stock Exchange of Thailand, others at the nearby Channel 3television building which they loath."It serves them well.

They should have done it earlier at 5am," a hard-line red shirt woman who stood nearby told me.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/05/20/politics/Anarchy-in-Klongtoey-30129831.html

[Emptyset]

No shortage of Communism in the Somyot's Red Publications

Somyot is indeed a leftist, but I think he's definitely in a minority.

[Insight]

One of the many protesters who I assume had no idea what he was wearing nor did any Red Leader tell those wearing such communist garb or selling it at the rally to stop as this is not what the RED movement is about ...

Keep in mind I am making no comment on a democratic socialist or communist Thai state being good or bad but believe a group such as The Reds should make their political ideology known directly and honestly.

Interesting read on the communist tactics the reds have employed ...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

Courtesy of @DavidQuine from planet Twitter... (from the most recent Ratchaprasong gathering)

[Emptyset]

From the AT article I posted above .....

UDD organizer Jaran Dittapichai told this correspondent that the protest group had adopted "Mao Zedong's method of thinking" and some of his techniques, including the establishment of a united front. "I was a communist and several leaders were former communists ... but the red shirt people don't like communism or socialism. We use his principles to build up our front and to work with people who are not red shirts, but who are fighting for democracy like us."

Again it is a question of tactics .... not of ideals

Yes... as I've said several times now, I know they used some Maoist strategies, which they talked about explicitly, but the violence wasn't part of it. Anyway, no way of proving this one way or the other and this is just going round in circles, so... let's agree to disagree.

[Emptyset]

His law firm was the one that took their case and filed the crimes against humanity nonsense against Abhisit.

That makes him their Red Class Action Lawyer, but I can understand why you might want to try and distance the Reds from the discredited lawyer... because he's discredited.

I'm not distancing him, most reds love/support him as far as I can tell. I'm just saying the overwhelming vast majority of people that support red shirts aren't supporting them because of anything Amsterdam has said or written.

[jdinasia]

His law firm was the one that took their case and filed the crimes against humanity nonsense against Abhisit.

That makes him their Red Class Action Lawyer, but I can understand why you might want to try and distance the Reds from the discredited lawyer... because he's discredited.

I'm not distancing him, most reds love/support him as far as I can tell. I'm just saying the overwhelming vast majority of people that support red shirts aren't supporting them because of anything Amsterdam has said or written.

Amsterdam showed his butt when he said he had "never heard that suggested before" in an interview with Al Jazeera when the question was asked if Thaksin was funding the red insurgency or not. If he hadn't heard it suggested then he had NEVER opened a newspaper or read anything about Thailand

Most reds (by your broader movement definition) have probably never heard of Robert Amsterdam, his intent was to try and portray this as a class struggle to the world press. In the end, he failed. Thaksin should get his retainer back.

[jdinasia]

From the AT article I posted above .....

UDD organizer Jaran Dittapichai told this correspondent that the protest group had adopted "Mao Zedong's method of thinking" and some of his techniques, including the establishment of a united front. "I was a communist and several leaders were former communists ... but the red shirt people don't like communism or socialism. We use his principles to build up our front and to work with people who are not red shirts, but who are fighting for democracy like us."

Again it is a question of tactics .... not of ideals

Yes... as I've said several times now, I know they used some Maoist strategies, which they talked about explicitly, but the violence wasn't part of it. Anyway, no way of proving this one way or the other and this is just going round in circles, so... let's agree to disagree.

Ugh ... violence is at the heart of Maoist strategy, not merely a part of it, it is central to it.

Again from the AT article ---

His five-year odyssey with the Communist Party of Thailand (CPT) included a three-month period in Hanoi in the heady period following the unification of Vietnam under communist rule. There, Therdpoum and a handful of hand-picked Thai activists, like prominent student leader Seksan Prasertkun, as well as current UDD leaders Weng Tochirakan and Jaran Dittapichai, were drilled in Maoist revolutionary theory.

The five tactics they learned for unseating a government included: divide your enemies; form a united front; use provocative violence; secure the loyalty of people inside the ruling regime; and, finally, win over the army.

I added the bold and underlining ....

Edited January 18, 2011 by jdinasia

[jdinasia]

well one thing can be said at this point .... jayboy's remarks using the remarks "fatuous" and "politically naive" about another poster have been fully refuted

[Nisa]

He wasn't elected by winning a plurality in a general election. Some consider that improper. I'm sure in the UK or any parliamentary system there'd be major complaints if things had happened like they did in Thailand. In the last UK election, which was a hung parliament, there was a chance for the "loser" (OK the party who came second) to form a coalition, but even the people from the party that lost considered it undemocratic. The consensus was that the party that won most seats should form the government.

I hear what you are saying and appreciate the way you are communicating your thoughts. However, I am just trying to say the Reds have no agenda but constantly whining and making intimidating demands that have little to do with helping the mobs that follow them. A leader learns to accept a lose be it fair or not and then moves on to work with the powers that be to make change. You mentioned the UK and that is a much similar government as Thailand but in the US the people do elect their president. Yet, it was the Supreme Court decision that put the young Bush in office at a time when nobody was clear about actual vote count but after the ruling leaders move on. Gerald Ford another president of the US was never elected to anything in a nationwide vote let alone president. Bottom line is Sh@t Happens and people need to move on and make the best of it. The Reds (leadership) have no collective concern about any of the people of Thailand but themselves. Even their agenda of Democracy is a lie as they were offered elections at the end of the year but turned it down because their only goal was to destabilize Thailand. Make no mistake they want a coup and not proper elections in order to bring Thaksin back to power but they even lie about Thaksin's involvement with the Reds. Their best motto to date is 'they did it so we should be able to' ... seriously, anybody who supports these guys is missing something. However, I am all for supporting somebody who would bring more opportunity to the poor in Thailand without trying to create hatred and division.

[Emptyset]

Ugh ... violence is at the heart of Maoist strategy, not merely a part of it, it is central to it.

Yes, it is is part THE Maoist strategy (if you're talking about the revolutionary strategy), but not all Maoist strategies are violent. What does creating a united front, for instance - which Jaran said was an idea they'd got from Mao - have to do with violence? It could be a peaceful or violent united front, couldn't it? Isn't the heart of the Maoist actually creating "liberated zones" in the country with a peasant base until you can encircle the city? Presumably if you can do that without violence, then violence needn't be part of the Maoist strategy.

Anyway, this isn't a debate about Maoist strategy, it's a debate about who did what in the red shirts. Unfortunately the likes of Jaran had little influence in the overall strategy, I think he was one of the ones that almost quit after the hardliners seemed to be refusing to accept Abhisit's offer. Weng almost did too. Now these the highest profile ex-communists in the movement, yet strangely enough Seh Daeng didn't threaten to replace Nattawud, Veera and Jatuporn with Jaran and Weng did he? And why do you suppose that is if, like you say, they secretly wanted - and planned for - violent revolution? It's because it's no more than fantasy. If you want to look at the causes of the initial violence (April 10th) you have to look at people that weren't even obviously involved with the protests... as I've already mentioned, you have to look at certainly Panlop, Chavalit, Maj Gen Triarong Intharathat & other class 10 generals who're known to be close to Thaksin. These are the people who engineered violence, not Weng and Jaran. I'm not disagreeing that there was no violent strategy, I'm just saying you're way off in who you're point the figure at...

[jayboy]

There was a "massive and general welcome for the reds before it went pearshaped"? Wow! They proclaim a million will be there but in a city of between 8-12 million they could get a total of 100,000 (mostly paid and trucked in) but hey ... that's a massive and general welcome!

As for connections between the reds and communism you need only look at Thida and Weng. Both actively involved with the Maoist CPT in the past.

Even the most hostile observers were surprised by the warm welcome the Reds received from many Bangkokians.That's just a fact and your denial speaks volumes about your ignorance and poor judgement.

Even those like you who apparently have no knowledge of recent Thai history would be struck by the absurdity of those who claims that the Reds embody Thaksinite free market capitalism alongside a Marxist agenda.These unread ignoramuses probably don't understand however how poisonous this kind of communist branding rhetoric can be.They don't understand or know about the events at Thammasat in 1976, and how right wing thugs were incited to murder under the guise of battling communists.

[jdinasia]

LOL --- you must have missed where I said the political front denies the violence of the violent front. Chevalit and his crew were repeatedly mentioned as being the saviours that would come in and defend the reds. Then again wasn't he Thaksin's choice for the head of the "People's Army"? The violence was central to the plan. Weng knew it. Veera probably knew it. (He certainly called for the burning of the counter corruption building)) Their job, however, was to repeat the "we are not terrorists, we only want democracy" in English, and the anti-government hate and fear rhetoric in Thai. (Which also feeds straight into the Maoist strategies used).

Note that Jaran and Weng didn't leave --- that's the punchline. Just like your stating that people in jail (some of) believed the violent rhetoric from the red leaders and deserve to stay in jail, while apparently defending the UDD "legitimate greivance" about their leaders being in jail (the ones that you appear to be saying incited the violence).

Thats it for me tonight ..... conference call in a few minutes.