Two Yellow-Shirt Leaders Arrested For Seizure Of Two Bangkok Airports

[Ricardo]

Hard to compare anything with a World War involving aerial bombing by multiple nations, but nonetheless, the Bangkok skyline on that day:

Perhaps some might wish to believe, there was an international-convention in town, of grilled-chicken vendors ?

But it certainly looked serious-enough from my half-empty arriving plane, as I began to understand why I was being warned at check-in, that the UK-government was advising against all travel to Thailand !

[Siam Simon]

cut// Nonetheless, much of the city center was set alight. //cut

For the millionth time, stop exaggerating.

[cougar52]

cut// Nonetheless, much of the city center was set alight. //cut

For the millionth time, stop exaggerating.

PLEASE!!!!!!! Much of the smoke in that picture is from the hordes of tires that were set a lite.

[Buchholz]

For the millionth time, stop exaggerating.

Likewise.

The only shooting going on around parliament on Oct 7 2008 was by PAD members.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Buchholz

[Siam Simon]

For the millionth time, stop exaggerating.

Likewise.

The only shooting going on around parliament on Oct 7 2008 was by PAD members.

I was appalled by the two deaths and the near five hundred injuries that day, just as I was appalled by the incompetence of the police and the PAD leaders.

Do you have any evidence of police (or any other party) using guns (as in shooting at) against demonstrators?

Edited January 20, 2011 by Siam Simon

[whybother]

This is only a small part of the Bangkok skyline "on that day". Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the CTW fire as seen from the park? There is more than a little speculation about who actually created this particular fire. I kept asking you for some proof after you offered speculation about the cause, but all you could provide was more speculation. Have you got any further with this?

Is there ANY evidence that CTW wasn't lit by red shirts?

The building was surrounded by red shirts. The building was used by red shirts. The building was looted by red shirts. There are pictures of red shirts throwing tyres into the flames.

And you want us to believe that the army/government burnt the building down?

[thaihome]

[Siam Simon]

This is only a small part of the Bangkok skyline "on that day". Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the CTW fire as seen from the park? There is more than a little speculation about who actually created this particular fire. I kept asking you for some proof after you offered speculation about the cause, but all you could provide was more speculation. Have you got any further with this?

Is there ANY evidence that CTW wasn't lit by red shirts?

The building was surrounded by red shirts. The building was used by red shirts. The building was looted by red shirts. There are pictures of red shirts throwing tyres into the flames.

And you want us to believe that the army/government burnt the building down?

There are pictures of people rolling tyres into the fire at Zen dept store. But this fire was extinguished. There are photos of precise gunshot injuries suffered inside the main CTW arcade just before the main arcade was torched (highly-skilled gunmen at work). We can only speculate as to who these gunmen were, and who started the second fire in the main arcade. If you want to move further than speculation you have to provide evidence instead of just stating that A+B must=C. Speculation is fine, of course, as long as you don't try to present it as anything else.

[animatic]

Obviously our definitions of " much of " differ quite a lot then.

How 'much' is a debatable point, no need for Dresden hyperbole.

Buildings over a wide area, and not just localized, were torched.

It wasn't just Central World dude, they 'spread the horror over a wide area'.

The point being that the threat of one burning building becoming a conflagration was spread over much of Bangkok.

If it was your neighborhood, you'd worry big time.

[Siam Simon]

Obviously our definitions of " much of " differ quite a lot then.

How 'much' is a debatable point, no need for Dresden hyperbole.

Buildings over a wide area, and not just localized, were torched.

It wasn't just Central World dude, they 'spread the horror over a wide area'.

The point being that the threat of one burning building becoming a conflagration was spread over much of Bangkok.

If it was your neighborhood, you'd worry big time.

I'd worry far more if I was on my way home from work having to dodge live rounds aimed vaguely at anyone perceived as the opponent of said live rounds.

[animatic]

For the millionth time, stop exaggerating.

Likewise.

The only shooting going on around parliament on Oct 7 2008 was by PAD members.

I was appalled by the two deaths and the near five hundred injuries that day, just as I was appalled by the incompetence of the police and the PAD leaders.

Do you have any evidence of police (or any other party) using guns (as in shooting at) against demonstrators?

There was a clear video of a policeman in beret and sun glasses drawing down and firing,

then seeing he was on camera trying to stop the camera man. And after they saw the damage caused by the too powerful teargas grenades they continued to use them aimed directly at individuals and groups, not as smoke sources, but as actual weapons of destruction.

[Siam Simon]

[There was a clear video of a policeman in beret and sun glasses drawing down and firing,

then seeing he was on camera trying to stop the camera man. And after they saw the damage caused by the too powerful teargas grenades they continued to use them aimed directly at individuals and groups, not as smoke sources, but as actual weapons of destruction.

Where is the video? How many of the injuries suffered by PAD protestors were gunshot wounds? At what point did the police realise they'd been given crappy, dangerous tear gas? Please show me that point in time.

[Buchholz]

For the millionth time, stop exaggerating.

Likewise.

The only shooting going on around parliament on Oct 7 2008 was by PAD members.

I was appalled by the two deaths and the near five hundred injuries that day, just as I was appalled by the incompetence of the police and the PAD leaders.

Do you have any evidence of police (or any other party) using guns (as in shooting at) against demonstrators?

Watch the above video. It depicts police shooting a variety of guns and protesters receiving a variety of wounds from them.

btw, shooting a gun that fires exploding tear gas cannisters on a horizontal plane is "shooting guns", hence the reason for the hundreds of injured.

[Siam Simon]

Watch the above video. It depicts police shooting a variety of guns and protesters receiving a variety of wounds from them.

What above video?

btw, shooting a gun that fires exploding tear gas cannisters on a horizontal plane is "shooting guns", hence the reason for the hundreds of injured.

Is there any proof that the police became aware of their inappropriate ordnance in real time?

But anyway, aren't violence, injury and death always the appalling alternatives to compromise and negotiation?

Edited January 20, 2011 by Siam Simon

[mca]

Obviously our definitions of " much of " differ quite a lot then.

How 'much' is a debatable point, no need for Dresden hyperbole.

Buildings over a wide area, and not just localized, were torched.

It wasn't just Central World dude, they 'spread the horror over a wide area'.

The point being that the threat of one burning building becoming a conflagration was spread over much of Bangkok.

If it was your neighborhood, you'd worry big time.

Come on ani mate.

There's so much Strawman in your answer that I'm half expecting Judy Garland to come into view at any moment.

"The point being that the threat of one burning building becoming a conflagration was spread over much of Bangkok."

That got nothing to do with what you posted at all. You said that " Much of Bangkok was set alight." A simple inaccurate statement that is hyperbole in itself. Nowt to do with the possibilities of the conflagration spreading.

"Buildings over a wide area, and not just localized, were torched."

Which again doesn't support that " Much of Bangkok was set alight" " Much " would suggest a large number when compared with the entire amount of buildings in Bangkok if we're being completely accurate here the amount of buildings torched would be " extremely small"

"If it was your neighborhood, you'd worry big time."

For sure. But again nothing to do with your inaccurate statement about " Much of Bangkok was set alight"

Those who set the fires are worthy of contempt and hopefully long prison sentences. But when I see stuff like " Much of Bangkok was set alight" or " The burning of Bangkok" I just think " Give me a frigging break please"

Valid contempt of Red shirt antagonists/insurgents/terrorists whatever doesn't need to spill over into internet histrionics. Reading half the posts on here about the Red Shirt arson attacks you'd half expect to see mass evacuation scenes like from Deep Impact

[whybother]

This is only a small part of the Bangkok skyline "on that day". Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the CTW fire as seen from the park? There is more than a little speculation about who actually created this particular fire. I kept asking you for some proof after you offered speculation about the cause, but all you could provide was more speculation. Have you got any further with this?

Is there ANY evidence that CTW wasn't lit by red shirts?

The building was surrounded by red shirts. The building was used by red shirts. The building was looted by red shirts. There are pictures of red shirts throwing tyres into the flames.

And you want us to believe that the army/government burnt the building down?

There are pictures of people rolling tyres into the fire at Zen dept store. But this fire was extinguished. There are photos of precise gunshot injuries suffered inside the main CTW arcade just before the main arcade was torched (highly-skilled gunmen at work). We can only speculate as to who these gunmen were, and who started the second fire in the main arcade. If you want to move further than speculation you have to provide evidence instead of just stating that A+B must=C. Speculation is fine, of course, as long as you don't try to present it as anything else.

Yes ... you are doing a lot of speculation based on very little (no?) evidence.

Given that no fire fighters were able to access the building when it the fire was first lit, how did the fire get extinguished? Most likely sprinklers. Was it fully extinguished?

The army didn't get control of the area until well after the "second fire" was lit. So clearly, it was most likely a continuation of the "first fire", or possibly it was another fire lit by the red shirts, given that they were still there.

There is NO evidence that the army were inside the building. A couple of people were shot by "highly skilled gunmen". Do you need to be that highly skilled to hit someone in the leg? Does anyone know how many shots were fired for those two hits?

Speculation ... ofcourse. Evidence ... red shirts present in the area. Red shirts lighting the "first fire". Red shirts having access to the building for a long period of time. No evidence of the army being present.

[rubl]

Watch the above video. It depicts police shooting a variety of guns and protesters receiving a variety of wounds from them.

What above video?

btw, shooting a gun that fires exploding tear gas cannisters on a horizontal plane is "shooting guns", hence the reason for the hundreds of injured.

Is there any proof that the police became aware of their inappropriate ordnance in real time?

But anyway, aren't violence, injury and death always the appalling alternatives to compromise and negotiation?

The Report on Human Rights Violation

by

Human Rights Protection Subcommittee No.1

Report of Examination No / 2008

in Thai and English

http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9510000123791

http://www.antithaksin.com/086_Human_Rights.html

Anyway is someones studied ignorance not an appalling alternative to real ignorance?

[rubl]

I'd worry far more if I was on my way home from work having to dodge live rounds aimed vaguely at anyone perceived as the opponent of said live rounds.

Ever since passing BTS Saladaeng a few hours before the grenade attack which killed a lady and injured 80 other bystanders I worry on my way to work as I may be a casualty of yet another grenade attack vaguely aimed at non-red-shirts.

We had a life-fire area for two days in a very restricted area, we also had months of grenade attacks on non-red-shirts.

(edit: add second paragraph)

Edited January 20, 2011 by rubl

[rubl]

This is only a small part of the Bangkok skyline "on that day". Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the CTW fire as seen from the park? There is more than a little speculation about who actually created this particular fire. I kept asking you for some proof after you offered speculation about the cause, but all you could provide was more speculation. Have you got any further with this?

Is there ANY evidence that CTW wasn't lit by red shirts?

The building was surrounded by red shirts. The building was used by red shirts. The building was looted by red shirts. There are pictures of red shirts throwing tyres into the flames.

And you want us to believe that the army/government burnt the building down?

There are pictures of people rolling tyres into the fire at Zen dept store. But this fire was extinguished. There are photos of precise gunshot injuries suffered inside the main CTW arcade just before the main arcade was torched (highly-skilled gunmen at work). We can only speculate as to who these gunmen were, and who started the second fire in the main arcade. If you want to move further than speculation you have to provide evidence instead of just stating that A+B must=C. Speculation is fine, of course, as long as you don't try to present it as anything else.

The torching of CTW has been discussed extensively long, long time ago, around the 11th of December 2010. Rather than re-doing that discussion in a topic on 'yellow-shirts' please read the old discussion. Maybe start here

Now back to 'Two yellow-shirt leaders arrested'

[Buchholz]

Watch the above video. It depicts police shooting a variety of guns and protesters receiving a variety of wounds from them.

What above video?

In the only video posted on this thread. Post # 25

btw, shooting a gun that fires exploding tear gas cannisters on a horizontal plane is "shooting guns", hence the reason for the hundreds of injured.

Is there any proof that the police became aware of their inappropriate ordnance in real time?

But anyway, aren't violence, injury and death always the appalling alternatives to compromise and negotiation?

Read the thread posted earlier on the charges against Thaksin's brother-in-law Somchai et al (the same Post # 25).

They were aware of the carnage they were causing in the morning... and in a second wave of shooting in the afternoon and early evening, continued to use the same exploding tear gas canisters. Hence the maliciousness of their knowingly firing lethal weaponry was worthy of seeking criminal charges against those in charge.

[Emptyset]

Because the airport was only one week.

Expensive and inconvenient, and no doubt illegal to do.

And they left voluntarily and quietly. And the leaders turned themselves in to the court system.

Government house was loud, but peaceful, except when they were attacked from outside.

and didn't disrupt anyone except the government some, Somchai proved a total wimp at this time,

until

They didn't move against it because the army refused to take orders from the government. That's the real reason. Nothing to do with it being "only one week". It could've been much longer had PPP not been dissolved. Yeah, they left voluntarily after getting exactly what they wanted... and what do you mean by "only one week"? The economic damage caused by the closure of the airport for a day could equal that of the red shirts occupying Ratchaprasong for a month. That's just a guess, but the airport closures were believed to have cost the economy 3 billion a day, whilst Ratchaprasong traders claim that they lost about 11 billion from the red shirt protests in total.

Of course, government house rally was for the most part peaceful. If no one is opposing you why would you not be peaceful? They did loot the place upon leaving though.

a ) Oct 7th and they government tried to shoot PAD like fish in a barrel at Parliament.

World wide images of carnage against citizens for which many police and Team Thaksin leaders have been charged. So don't say they didn't move against them, the police screwed up royally trying this. Bringing on a new stupid tactic.

Trying what? To "shoot PAD like fish in a barrel"? You mean to disperse them using tear gas? It was an accident... and you're saying Somchai should be charged for this yet military should face no investigation for the April/May events? The police didn't give PAD enough warning to disperse before they started shooting, that's true, they didn't know how to use the tear gas properly and the tear gas was faulty, all true, but that's just negligence. You imply they planned it and there's no evidence for that other than conspiracy theories propagated by PAD supporters.

b ) The 'Red friends', 'predicted by Sae Dang in advance',

started lobbing deadly grenades at them at night.

After these acts of aggression hardened the PAD, and they determined to go all out.

Without this gross miscalculations from team Thaksin, the PAD would have remained,

a very annoying, and loud, barking dog, instead they morphed into a hardened militant group.

But not a semi military group trying to cause deaths and destruction.

They'd already raided NBT before and killed one red shirt (well they weren't red shirts back then, but when the pro-PPP group confronted them) before either of these two things you mention, so let's not pretend they weren't prepared to be "militant" before that. PAD guards had grenades too... http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/11/11/politics/politics_30088069.php

[Emptyset]

Watch the above video. It depicts police shooting a variety of guns and protesters receiving a variety of wounds from them.

btw, shooting a gun that fires exploding tear gas cannisters on a horizontal plane is "shooting guns", hence the reason for the hundreds of injured.

I've only seen one picture of the police using an actual gun, here: http://www.oknation.net/blog/tyty1789/2008/10/08/entry-1

Looks like he was quickly told to put it away by a superior?

[Emptyset]

They were aware of the carnage they were causing in the morning... and in a second wave of shooting in the afternoon and early evening, continued to use the same exploding tear gas canisters. Hence the maliciousness of their knowingly firing lethal weaponry was worthy of seeking criminal charges against those in charge.

Yes... though if you read Nostitz's report, it's more like the police trying to repel an attack (in the afternoon) than the other way round: http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/10/11/what-happened-on-7102008/#comment-566832

Now, as most people here say "the red shirts knew the army were using live bullets, so why didn't they go home? som nam na". So why are you criticizing police here and not the PAD? The PAD knew the police were using deadly ordinance at that point, yet still continued, not just to defend their ground, but to actively attack the police. Shouldn't you just say "som nam na, they deserved it", B?

[random]

I see this thread has quickly turned in to a yellow propaganda thread where the resident forum yellows try to rewrite history and make people believe the yellows did no wrong.

they seem to forget the deaths and injuries caused BY the yellows, they forget the financial implications caused by the yellows, they forget that the light handed way they were treated means they are still causing problems now, such as venturing over the border. Well now it seems the government do not need them anymore, they served their purpose, now they are being rounded up at last, and their get out of jail free cards seems to have been revoked, and about bloody time too, their arrogance will mean they will continue to commit offences though, it just remains to be seen what more damage they will cause.

However one plus point is now that this government does not need them, they may turn agaisnt this lame duck and get rid of them and actually do Thailand a favour for a change.

[Emptyset]

Secondly if Thaksin funded the reds debacle, who funded the near six month yellow shirt protests.

This article suggests a few possibilities: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/thailand/081209/who-bankrolled-thailands-revolution

Incidentally, in a Jonathan Head (BBC) article about PAD's backers, he says "In fact, PAD organisers told the BBC they had carefully planned the seizure of the airport weeks before." I don't know why people on this board keep repeating the nonsense about the airport invasion being an "accident". What if the UDD leaders claimed the hospital invasion was an accident? Would that be accepted? Of course not.

[SomTumTiger]

Always love a man with answers for everything.

[Buchholz]

b ) The 'Red friends', 'predicted by Sae Dang in advance',

started lobbing deadly grenades at them at night.

After these acts of aggression hardened the PAD, and they determined to go all out.

Without this gross miscalculations from team Thaksin, the PAD would have remained,

a very annoying, and loud, barking dog, instead they morphed into a hardened militant group.

But not a semi military group trying to cause deaths and destruction.

They'd already raided NBT before and killed one red shirt (well they weren't red shirts back then, but when the pro-PPP group confronted them) before either of these two things you mention, so let's not pretend they weren't prepared to be "militant" before that. PAD guards had grenades too... http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/11/11/politics/politics_30088069.php

The PAD was under attack for a full two years prior to either of your references.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/adsearch.php?keyword=pad+rally&page=106

[Buchholz]

Watch the above video. It depicts police shooting a variety of guns and protesters receiving a variety of wounds from them.

btw, shooting a gun that fires exploding tear gas cannisters on a horizontal plane is "shooting guns", hence the reason for the hundreds of injured.

I've only seen one picture of the police using an actual gun, here: http://www.oknation.net/blog/tyty1789/2008/10/08/entry-1

Looks like he was quickly told to put it away by a superior?

I'd proffer that anyone that thinks an M-79 grenade launcher isn't an "actual gun" knows precious little about guns.

Again, the fact that they were firing the exploding tear gas canisters from these weapons on a horizontal plane just adds to the lethality of their already dangerous nature. Hundreds injured is a testament that these are, in fact, "actual guns."

.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

They were aware of the carnage they were causing in the morning... and in a second wave of shooting in the afternoon and early evening, continued to use the same exploding tear gas canisters. Hence the maliciousness of their knowingly firing lethal weaponry was worthy of seeking criminal charges against those in charge.

Yes... though if you read Nostitz's report, it's more like the police trying to repel an attack (in the afternoon) than the other way round: http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/10/11/what-happened-on-7102008/#comment-566832

Now, as most people here say "the red shirts knew the army were using live bullets, so why didn't they go home? som nam na". So why are you criticizing police here and not the PAD? The PAD knew the police were using deadly ordinance at that point, yet still continued, not just to defend their ground, but to actively attack the police. Shouldn't you just say "som nam na, they deserved it", B?

No need to re-hash this 2 year old incident for the umpteenth time as nearly all people here know what happened then despite spin attempts years later through confirmed Red slanted people like Nostitz, but suffice to say, yellows and Reds are a different situation in that we were talking about a same day occurrence, not the weeks and weeks the Reds had been warned.

Appropriately, criminal charges have been filed against the appropriate people and we can wait for the trial of Somchai and Chavalit et al to re-hash it again.

.

[jayboy]

I see this thread has quickly turned in to a yellow propaganda thread where the resident forum yellows try to rewrite history and make people believe the yellows did no wrong.

they seem to forget the deaths and injuries caused BY the yellows, they forget the financial implications caused by the yellows, they forget that the light handed way they were treated means they are still causing problems now, such as venturing over the border. Well now it seems the government do not need them anymore, they served their purpose, now they are being rounded up at last, and their get out of jail free cards seems to have been revoked, and about bloody time too, their arrogance will mean they will continue to commit offences though, it just remains to be seen what more damage they will cause.

However one plus point is now that this government does not need them, they may turn agaisnt this lame duck and get rid of them and actually do Thailand a favour for a change.

You are right sand it's contaminated