Inheritance

[Thanet]

Hi - a lawyer would perhaps only know the answer, but sometimes personal experience is more useful, hence my question here.

My question - what happens when somebody dies intestate without leaving a will? What is the processs, and to which family members is the estate usually transferred to? How long does it take?

Edited January 29, 2011 by Thanet

[Mario2008]

More about Thai family law, including wills, here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/313877-thai-family-law/

[Thanet]

More about Thai family law, including wills, here: http://www.thaivisa....hai-family-law/

Thanks, but still not clear. In the case where somebody dies intestate, do the descendants automatically get the estate (being first in the list)? How long does probate take, and what if family members lower down on the list stake claims?

As I said, I'm interested in personal experience. Lawyers quite often get it wrong.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Thanet

[Beetlejuice]

In which country?

[Thanet]

In which country?

In Thailand

[colinscarr]

Not a definitive answer, but I've heard that Thai banks will hang onto a deceased money for years unless you can produce a will stating that the money in A/C number xxx belonging to Khun yyy is bequeathed to Khun zzz.

Unless it's already too late, I'd most strongly urge making a will in Thailand to cover (your?) assets in Thailand.

[Beetlejuice]

In Thailand there are sometimes items that cannot be left in a will, as the farang is not permitted under Thai law to own them.

Such as certain lands, real estate, companies, business assets and so on.

It is worth taking precautions just in case the worst does happen. For example, transfer any lands you have into children’s names. Bank accounts put into joint names with your nearest and dearest or those you intend to include in your will.

Gold and other valuable items store in a strong box at your bank, only giving access to those closest to you and again anyone who you wish to inherit these if you die.

If done correctly and with thought, there is probable no need to create a will in Thailand, but of course I have no knowledge of your situation so do not know what is actually involved here.

But at least I have given you a guide to start off with.

[Flatouthruthefog]

<br />In Thailand there are sometimes items that cannot be left in a will, as the farang is not permitted under Thai law to own them.<br /><br />Such as certain lands, real estate, companies, business assets and so on.<br /><br />It is worth taking precautions just in case the worst does happen. For example, transfer any lands you have into children's names. Bank accounts put into joint names with your nearest and dearest or those you intend to include in your will. <br /><br />Gold and other valuable items store in a strong box at your bank, only giving access to those closest to you and again anyone who you wish to inherit these if you die.<br /><br />    If done correctly and with thought, there is probable no need to create a will in Thailand, but of course I have no knowledge of your situation so do not know what is actually involved here.<br /><br />  But at least I have given you a guide to start off with.<br /><br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Hmmmm. Maybe not?

A reliable western Hon Consul has told me that dieing intestate in Thailand causes more trouble for those left behind than in most western nations.

For expats, making a Will in both relevant languages, complying with both sets of laws and (crucially of course!) agreeing with each other, has been strongly recommended to me.

[mystwoodcol]

I think its all about who gets back to house first!

[Thanet]

I think its all about who gets back to house first!

You may be right there

[noise]

Getting opinions from the expat community never hurts. But be sure to take everything you read here to a good lawyer and get an experienced legal opinion supported by real precedences before you proceed.

An expat can inherit land and other property of value.

As far as land is concerned, he/she can not have it registered in his/her name and most likely will be required to transfer title from the name of the deceased to a legal recipient (another Thai) within a certain time frame. But for the that period of time he/she has legal control of the property.

I know of one specific (real) case where the court gave the expat 10 months to dispose of the property after ruling he was the "legal" owner even though his name was not the name on the title.

[jackr]

^^ Have also heard the same, albeit 12 months. As pointed out above, farangs cannot own land, but you can still be willed and then dispose of property, or, indeed, bung it in your kids' name in the meantime. If no will, believe it's something like 25%,25%,25%,25% - you, kids, outlaws, extended rellies...

[astral]

Where there is a Will, there is a way........

And it may need updating if circumstances change.

[scorecard]

I did lots of research on this subject a few years back.

My conclusions:

- Making wills in Thailand can be quite cheap, but balance that against the quality of the lawyer you use.

- Doesn't take long.

- Be careful of the meaning of 'Joint Accounts' with Thai banks (any banks). I.e. You can have a 'Joint Account' whereby any of the signatories can do any transcations (only one signature needed), and of course a 'Joint Account' whereby both people must sign to authorize transactions.

And further, I discovered that even if the 'Joint Account' is set up so that any of the parties can sign anything alone, then on death of one of the parties different banks have different policies.

Example: one bank said: OK, one party dies, nothing has changed, bank is not interetsed in any way about death of one party therefore other party can just keep using the account.

Another bank said, 'It's illegal for the bank to allow any further transactions after the death of one of trhe parties regardles of how the joint account was set up, and if the surviving joint account owner doesn't advise the bank about the death of the other party then that's a criminal offence.

And to twist it further I thought I had found one possible part answer in regard to an account set up years ago in just my name, and I wanted to change it to a 'joint account'. The bank told me that you cannot convert 'single accounts' to a 'joint accounts', but you can 'lodge an authority' for another person to make withdrawals from that account.

But digging further on this yet another bank said it was totally up to the local bank manager to decide whether to accept a withdrawal slip from the party mentioned in the 'authority'. Therefore no guarantee that the person detailed in the 'authority' can actually make withdrawals, etc.

As a result of all of this I now have several joint accounts (any party can sign) with my adult Thai son, and he knows to start withdrawing funds very quickly after my death and transfer to an account in his own single name.

Gathering commenst about 'experiences' is fine, of course, but don't make decsions on what the armchair lawyers say.

The lawyer I used to make my will is located in Bangkok. I started to use him nearly 30 years ago when he just opened his own small office. Today he's a famous lawyer but still takes care of my small items.

He's expensive, but he speaks very advanced English, he's thorough, he's pleasant, he's a good listener, he's patient, he makes everybody in the discussion feel comfortable, and he's very careful that there are no misunderstandings about anything.

PM me if you want his name and address.

[Bagwan]

Although both my Thai wife and I have had Wills drawn up I have advised her to use my ATM cards and draw the money out of my accounts and deposit in a new account with a bank which neither of us has had any dealings. When the accounts are empty dispose of the cards. An alternative method is to use the accounts as and when required using either an ATM card or Internet banking to pay bills. Always draw cash and never show any connection with another bank account. In relation to my UK bank she has access to the telephone number and all the security passwords and two close friends with whom I have reciprocal arrangements will ensure that the account is cleared out and closed and the money deposited in a new account as above- not her existing one. I take the view that the only thing that should concern the bank is to close the account. That I may have taken up residence in a celestial neighbourhood is none of their concern..

When I changed banks here in Thailand I was told that there would be a charge, 300 baht I seem to remember, for closing my account. I walked out after depositing a small amount to bring the balance up to a round figure and then used their ATM to withdraw all except 10 baht.

[NancyL]

Hubby and I discovered it is really quite easy to create a simple Will at our local amphur office to cover our only assets in Thailand -- our bank accounts.

In doing the research for this, I discovered much the same double-talk and "up to the branch manager" response that Scorecard noted with different branch banks and got the disquieting feeling that funds could be held by the bank for a long time in the absence of a Thai Will, while our U.S. Will was translated and reviewed by the Thai courts. Some of our friends advised that the survivor can clean out the accounts if the other dies. That's assuming the survivor is in a position to do that and not laid up in a hospital or out-of-country. Another said a handwritten Will in English is all you need. The amount of misinformation we heard was amazing. Many people are simply in denial about their mortality, I guess and/or don't love their family enough to try to smooth the path for them.

We didn't need a lawyer for a simple amphur Will. Our total cost was less than 1000 baht, with the biggest expense being the visit to a doctor for a little chat in order to receive the required certificate that we're of sound mind.

Of course, if we owned a house, had kids, etc, etc, a simple Amphur Will wouldn't work. Then, a lawyer can be a very good investment, especially if you don't have a valid Will in your home country, either.

[inmysights]

In Thailand there are sometimes items that cannot be left in a will, as the farang is not permitted under Thai law to own them.

Such as certain lands, real estate, companies, business assets and so on.

It is worth taking precautions just in case the worst does happen. For example, transfer any lands you have into children’s names. Bank accounts put into joint names with your nearest and dearest or those you intend to include in your will.

Gold and other valuable items store in a strong box at your bank, only giving access to those closest to you and again anyone who you wish to inherit these if you die.

If done correctly and with thought, there is probable no need to create a will in Thailand, but of course I have no knowledge of your situation so do not know what is actually involved here.

But at least I have given you a guide to start off with.

It is absolutely essential to make a Will here in Thailand. And you WILL get a lot of very bad advice from farang-know-it-alls on this forum, as per.

You ARE most certainly allowed to bequeath you COMPANY AND IT'S ASSETS to another farang for example. You can draw up a Will yourself, and indeed I would advise you do so, bearing in mind the number of bent lawyers here. Together with your dear farang 'friends'/Thai family members who will most certainly be the first to have access to your property, who will then pay another bent lawyer to falsify a Power of Attorney/Will to lodge at the local Land Office/Bank naming themselves as 'sole beneficiaries'.

There are many pre-formatted Wills on the net, just fill in the blanks, have it WITNESSED and CO-WITNESSED by a couple of friends you can trust as you are still alive and can stop anything 'untoward' happening to your assets. DO NOT let them have a copy, a photograph, for some obscure reason of the said signing advisable, and then SEND SEVERAL COPIES TO TRUSTED FAMILY MEMBERS/FRIENDS/A LAWYER IN YOUR HOME COUNTRY. YOU CAN EVEN HAVE IT NOTARISED AT YOUR LOCAL EMBASSY.

DO NOT make the mistake, as so many do, not only here, but also in their home countries, of putting it off believing it to be 'bad luck' or that you are immortal. You will soon see every worm coming out of the woodwork whilst you are gasping your last one. DO IT NOW.

Google Thailand Wills for some more general advice if need be.

Edited January 31, 2011 by inmysights

[jaideeguy]

I am a co-signer [?] on my 92 yr old pop's 'immigration retirement' acct. and was told by our local bank manager that there would be 'no plobrem' when Pop no longer needed the required amount and that my signature was the same as his.

So, you guys still advise me to get a will drawn in Thai? and that his account may get locked by the bank??

[NancyL]

Jaideeguy, we were told the same thing by our bank branch manager (who may be the same as yours), but he pointed out that if he moves to another branch the next manager may not feel the same way and branch managers have much latitude. He suggested we establish Thai Wills.

In your case, you may be able to count on getting to the bank to clean out the account before the bank knows your Pop has expired. In our case, it wasn't possible, since my husband is in a service club with the bank manager and would surely know if one of us passed on. Meanwhile the branch manager has moved onto a different branch and we haven't even met the new manager. I'm glad we have the Thai Wills on file, but in your case, you may have a problem since I don't think your Pop can travel to the Amphur office, per your posts elsewhere on the CM forum. Maybe just count on moving quickly to the bank if your Pop passes.

[gravion]

DO NOT make the mistake, as so many do, not only here, but also in their home countries, of putting it off believing it to be 'bad luck' or that you are immortal. You will soon see every worm coming out of the woodwork whilst you are gasping your last one. DO IT NOW.

HERE I COME!!!! TEEHEEHEE... IM HERE FOR DA MONEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEY~~~~~~ :jap:thanks :jap: oh also how much is usually left over for wills??? like 2 million baht or smthing ???? may i have more please??? thanks...

i tink u gonna get this feelin right? oldman gaspin for air.... and the kids acting so hard to care... hoping to get em wills.... oldman knows this too... feels sick to look at their kids.... kids playing them parts.... knowing their oldman hating... golddigga..

hey how does mommy gets involved in this? do they decide on willies too??? or juz daddy or who ever controlz the assets... some mommys are stoopid!!! they dont wanna gimmie kids da money!!!!

Edited January 31, 2011 by gravion

[jaideeguy]

Jaideeguy, we were told the same thing by our bank branch manager (who may be the same as yours), but he pointed out that if he moves to another branch the next manager may not feel the same way and branch managers have much latitude. He suggested we establish Thai Wills.

In your case, you may be able to count on getting to the bank to clean out the account before the bank knows your Pop has expired. In our case, it wasn't possible, since my husband is in a service club with the bank manager and would surely know if one of us passed on. Meanwhile the branch manager has moved onto a different branch and we haven't even met the new manager. I'm glad we have the Thai Wills on file, but in your case, you may have a problem since I don't think your Pop can travel to the Amphur office, per your posts elsewhere on the CM forum. Maybe just count on moving quickly to the bank if your Pop passes.

I never thought of that scenario.....

So, your advise Nancy is to get a Thai will as a back up?? What you say does make sense, as I see bank managers and personel being transfered constantly. Can a valid Thai will be drawn up at our home by either a lawyer or a govmt official, as Pop is bedbound??

[NancyL]

Jaideeguy, I'm certain you could find a Thai lawyer who would visit your home and take care of everything with your Pop. We contacted several lawyers about doing Thai Wills and the prices they quoted were pretty high, especially since our only Thai assets are our bank accounts. I had one friend in a similar situation who went the Amphur Will route and we decided to try that first.

It took several meetings with the nice lady at the Amphur office as she figured out how the get their new computer system to handle foreigner/foreigner Will vs. ones where one party is a Thai national. They'd been able to do foreigner/foreigner Wills with their old system, so she knew they had to fix this "bug" with the new system. She didn't speak a word of English and the vocabulary needed for doing something like this isn't found in Becker's little pocket dictionary. Fortunately, I've been studying Thai for a couple of years and ended up bring my two reference desk size Thai/English dictionaries to her office so she could point to words like "beneficiary". Even if you had someone to help you with the language issues, she couldn't visit your home since she uses "fill in the blank" form documents that she accesses and prints from her desk computer.

If your Pop has a valid Will in his home country, then eventually it will be accepted by the Thai courts. The money could be locked up for a while the Will is translated and validated, but the money's already tied up now, isn't it? I don't know if the cost of probating his 800,000 baht account here in Thailand will cost more than just paying a Thai lawyer to do a Will before he passes. It might just be worth the risk, especially considering his situation. After all he just needs that money once a year for his retirement visa.

Oh, that inspires another idea! Could you move funds out of his account once he gets a visa extension and then re-open an account for him several months before his visa expires? I think the money has to age 90 days, but I'm no visa expert. Others on the Visa forum are.

Normally I'm not one to advocate living without a Will, but I also hate to see you pay thousands of baht to a Thai lawyer who's going to make the situation a lot more complicated than it needs to.

Edited February 1, 2011 by NancyL