Veera Sentenced To Eight Years In Cambodian Jail

[millwall_fan]

Sounds like the Cambodians are trying to provoke the Thais. Will be interesting to see how the Thais respond...

Or conversely, and likely more correctly, to warn the Thais to stop provoking them.

That's it animatic. Good point, well made.

The Thais are playing a dangerous political game. It's not just the PAD engineering this spat; the Army are involved and probably Abhisit's government I wonder if this could all be connected to the possible postponement of the election, due to proposed electoral changes not being ready, that was mooted today. A military stand off with a neighbouring country could seal it: The military are still afraid of Abhisit losing despite closing down all the Puea Thai TVand Radio Stations and banning from politics or jailing most of the party leaders who can string more than 2 sentences together.

Instead of worring about a 100m stretch of border that might be at issue, why not concentrate on lifting the economy of the major part of the Isaan that the Thais do control out of abject poverty?

[rubl]

Unusual for you Buchholz a liitle sympathy for our intruder friends. Maybe a colour of your liking. I agree why charge some with more serious charges...just <deleted> shoot them all and have done with it. Waste of space army sponsored nationalists.

Shoot them all? Sorry can't have that. Before you know it the PAD / TPN will get Amsterdam & Peroff LLP to file a case against the government to demonstrate that a substantial basis exists to believe that the following international crimes within the ambit of the ICC were committed in connection with the suppression of the RedYellow Shirt demonstrations ... bla, bla, blablabla ....

[Buchholz]

Any information on the specifics of the espionage conviction?

In what form did the spying take? What secret information were they gathering?

What did these 2 do that was different from the 5 that were with them the whole time and were only found guilty of trespassing?

I thought they were repeat offenders.

They've never been convicted of espionage before, only trespassing.

In fact, I'd be curious if any Thai has previously been convicted of espionage anywhere, let alone a man and woman spy team.

And add, has anyone from any country ever been previously convicted of espionage by Cambodia?

Out of curiosity why are you all of a sudden defending people who have no good intentions. They both knew it was a piece of Cambodian territory they were interning. They knew before hand that there were causing trouble and yet they went. What possible good could this type of action do Thailand?

Buchholz

you are normally good at research. Instead of trying to defend them why don't you go over the records of the trial and find out why they were convicted.

for myself I believe they deserved the time even if they weren't spying. We have the yellow shirts actively pursuing war and these clowns pull a stunt like that. And why did they do it on a military base?

Being as it was there second offense they had to know Cambodia would not turn the cheek a second time.

Don't know where you come from but where I come from there is a saying. [if you can't do the time don't do the crime]

It is one thing to play there silly little games in Thailand. (where it is becoming the national pastime) But to deliberately and illegally play it in another country if not doing espionage for Thailand it could be considered treason trying to get Thailand into trouble on the international scene. Just a thought but give it a little bit of consideration.

I'm only curious as to what on Earth they could possibly be convicted of regarding espionage. I'm not defending their trespassing.

I don't see that is so wrong that criminal action has the appropriate penalty adjudicated, but 8 years for crossing an unmarked/disputed border is taking the piss, even for a repeat offender.

8 years is certainly a reasonable punishment for a true case of espionage, but there is a distinct dearth of information available as to exactly what form that espionage took.

Typically espionage is conducted to uncover military secrets. Does Cambodia have military secrets in this area? What is this military base you speak of? As far as I can see from the various videos that were filmed, the area showed was a dismal dusty farmland with not much else.

The other discrepancy involved in this case is that it was a group of 7 that were all traveling together. I've not read any reports that the 2 broke off from the other 5 and went somewhere else. If that's the case, why were only these 2 charged with espionage?

This wasn't their second case of espionage, only trespassing.

As said, they shouldn't have gone there, but to punish them with fake charges of espionage is just bogus. To send them off to prison for that length of time is even more bogus. They aren't the Rosenbergs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg

[Buchholz]

just <deleted> shoot them all and have done with it

Your intelligent contribution is duly noted and discarded.

[truethailand]

just <deleted> shoot them all and have done with it

Your intelligent contribution is duly noted and discarded.

Only having a larf . Dont shoot em... just pray they were trespassing in a minefield

[Buchholz]

just <deleted> shoot them all and have done with it

Your intelligent contribution is duly noted and discarded.

Only having a larf . Dont shoot em... just pray they were trespassing in a minefield

Sorry to disappoint your lust for blood, but they walked along the same dirt road the other 5 did and the one the villagers use.

but apparently somewhere along this unfenced, unguarded dusty trail exists a secret Cambodian military base.

.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Buchholz

[phiphidon]

Unusual for you Buchholz a liitle sympathy for our intruder friends. Maybe a colour of your liking. I agree why charge some with more serious charges...just <deleted> shoot them all and have done with it. Waste of space army sponsored nationalists.

Why indeed? Surely you haven't done a Rubi and rediscovered the old yellow polo shirt beneath a pile of dust in your closet?

[MaiChai]

Taksin has been rather too cosily in bed with the Cambodians and Burmese to fairly represent Thai interests. More a case of putting his business interests ahead of his real priorities when he was PM. Which begs the question: is he really a patriot? Also the 2000 border agreement thing was instigated by him because of his (sic. conflict of interest) business with Cambodia. I do remember there was a lot of controversy about it at the time.

[OzMick]

I'm only curious as to what on Earth they could possibly be convicted of regarding espionage. I'm not defending their trespassing.

I don't see that is so wrong that criminal action has the appropriate penalty adjudicated, but 8 years for crossing an unmarked/disputed border is taking the piss, even for a repeat offender.

8 years is certainly a reasonable punishment for a true case of espionage, but there is a distinct dearth of information available as to exactly what form that espionage took.

Typically espionage is conducted to uncover military secrets. Does Cambodia have military secrets in this area? What is this military base you speak of? As far as I can see from the various videos that were filmed, the area showed was a dismal dusty farmland with not much else.

The other discrepancy involved in this case is that it was a group of 7 that were all traveling together. I've not read any reports that the 2 broke off from the other 5 and went somewhere else. If that's the case, why were only these 2 charged with espionage?

This wasn't their second case of espionage, only trespassing.

As said, they shouldn't have gone there, but to punish them with fake charges of espionage is just bogus. To send them off to prison for that length of time is even more bogus. They aren't the Rosenbergs.

http://en.wikipedia....Ethel_Rosenberg

Wasn't the salient point that they were in possession of the video camera? A lot of countries get touchy about filming around military bases. As for the " dismal dusty farmland," what else is there for 50 miles in any direction?

[rubl]

Sorry to disappoint your lust for blood, but they walked along the same dirt road the other 5 did and the one the villagers use.

but apparently somewhere along this unfenced, unguarded dusty trail exists a secret Cambodian military base.

Probably a leftover and forgotten part of the infamous HoChiMinh trail

[DP25]

The 7 traveled together into Cambodia's territory for 150 feet or so. 5 are sent on their way with a $250 fines... the other two are sent to prison for 8 and 6 years? Guilty of trespassing, yes. Guilty of espionage? phffft.

There are hundreds of thousands of illegal Cambodians in Thailand, and they go a lot further in than 150 feet. Wonder if this will provoke a backlash against them. They can use Burmese and Lao workers just as easily

[Buchholz]

I'm only curious as to what on Earth they could possibly be convicted of regarding espionage. I'm not defending their trespassing.

I don't see that is so wrong that criminal action has the appropriate penalty adjudicated, but 8 years for crossing an unmarked/disputed border is taking the piss, even for a repeat offender.

8 years is certainly a reasonable punishment for a true case of espionage, but there is a distinct dearth of information available as to exactly what form that espionage took.

Typically espionage is conducted to uncover military secrets. Does Cambodia have military secrets in this area? What is this military base you speak of? As far as I can see from the various videos that were filmed, the area showed was a dismal dusty farmland with not much else.

The other discrepancy involved in this case is that it was a group of 7 that were all traveling together. I've not read any reports that the 2 broke off from the other 5 and went somewhere else. If that's the case, why were only these 2 charged with espionage?

This wasn't their second case of espionage, only trespassing.

As said, they shouldn't have gone there, but to punish them with fake charges of espionage is just bogus. To send them off to prison for that length of time is even more bogus. They aren't the Rosenbergs.

http://en.wikipedia....Ethel_Rosenberg

Wasn't the salient point that they were in possession of the video camera? A lot of countries get touchy about filming around military bases. As for the " dismal dusty farmland," what else is there for 50 miles in any direction?

What of the other people videoing in the group?

Are the videos of their escapades into the territory and posted on youtube classified secret Cambodian military information?

I agree that there doesn't seem to be but dismal dusty farmland in that whole area, so where is the military base that is supposedly being spied on and what activities were the spy team recording? Those are some of the rather basic questions that I've not seen published anywhere. The want the world to believe that this area less than a football field length into their territory and that is unguarded, unfenced... is a secret military base worthy of being spied on? Hmmmm... I'm having difficulty digesting that one.

[Buchholz]

The 7 traveled together into Cambodia's territory for 150 feet or so. 5 are sent on their way with a $250 fines... the other two are sent to prison for 8 and 6 years? Guilty of trespassing, yes. Guilty of espionage? phffft.

There are hundreds of thousands of illegal Cambodians in Thailand, and they go a lot further in than 150 feet. Wonder if this will provoke a backlash against them. They can use Burmese and Lao workers just as easily

Indeed... and Thailand just repatriated 199 Cambodians back to Cambodia the other day.

As you say, if they escalate this into a "confine all illegal entrants on both sides of the border", there will be a lot more Cambodians than Thais being confined.

[hanuman1]

espionage [ˈɛspɪəˌnɑːʒ ˌɛspɪəˈnɑːʒ ˈɛspɪənɪdʒ]

n

1. the systematic use of spies to obtain secret information, esp by governments to discover military or political secrets

2. the act or practice of spying

[from French espionnage, from espionner to spy, from espion spy, from Old Italian spione, of Germanic origin; compare German spähen to spy]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

The act or practice of spying or of using spies to obtain secret information, as about another government or a business competitor.

[French espionnage, from espionner, to spy, from Old French espion, spy, from Old Italian spione, of Germanic origin; see spek- in Indo-European roots.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

The act of obtaining, delivering, transmitting, communicating, or receiving information about the national defense with an intent, or reason to believe, that the information may be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation. Espionage is a violation of 18 United States Code 792-798 and Article 106, Uniform Code ofMilitary Justice. See also counterintelligence.

Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms. US Department of Defense 2005.

It seems that only the US Department of Defense says the definition of espionage applies exclusively to military matters, whereas other authorities have a slightly broader definition. Perhaps the definition in Cambodian law is of a broader, and seemingly more common variety.

Hope this helps.

Edited February 1, 2011 by hanuman1

[Skywalker69]

A real shot across those nationalists bows.

No all that surprising since he is a repeat offender and

was making an obvious point of breaking the Cambodian laws.

Now his full amount of time becomes a bargaining chip.

No matter what it will not be short, but not the full 8 in all likelihood.

PAD and TPN must be apoplectic this evening.

Mabye long enough to be fluent in Khmer?

[webfact]

Tough prison terms

By THE NATION, AGENCIES

PAD, TPN claims govt responsible after Cambodian court sentences Veera to eight years in jail and Ratree to six; warn of violence by third party Veera Somkwamkid and Ratree Pipatanapaiboon were yesterday given lengthy prison sentences in Phnom Penh over charges of illegal entry and espionage in a case that could worsen ties between Thailand and Cambodia.

In the one-day trial, the Phnom Penh Municipal Court found Veera, who leads the Thai Patriots Network (TPN), and his assistant Ratree, guilty of espionage, illegal entry and trespassing in a military zone. These charges carry a maximum combined penalty of 11 years and six months.

Veera was sentenced to eight years behind bars and a fine of 1.8 million riel (about Bt18,000), while Ratree was given six years and fined 1.2 million riel (Bt12,000).

The pair were among seven Thais arrested on December 29 while allegedly inspecting disputed border territory. The five other members of the group, including Democrat MP Panich Vikitsreth, received suspended sentences for illegal entry on January 21 and have since returned home.

Veera and Ratree have up to a month to appeal the verdict. Their legal adviser Karun Sai-ngam said yesterday that the defence team would file an appeal immediately.

The TPN leader, wearing a blue prison uniform, kept insisting in court yesterday that he was not on Cambodian soil when arrested.

"I was on Thai territory," he told the court through a translator. "I had no intention to invade Cambodian territory."

Veera also cited a Google Earth map to support this argument that he was on Thai territory when Cambodian soldiers arrested him. When asked if he was sure the Cambodian authorities would approve the map, Veera responded that maps on Google Earth were globally accepted and should be considered the most neutral at the moment.

In Bangkok, Foreign Ministry spokesman Thani Thongpakdi said yesterday that the ministry would support the two on whatever they decide to do in response to the ruling - be it filing an appeal or seeking an amnesty.

Thani, who is also director-general of the Department of Information, said the ministry has insisted that the verdict would have no legal bearing on the border dispute between Thailand and Cambodia.

The People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), which Veera's group is part of, demanded yesterday that the government be held responsible for the guilty verdict issued by the Cambodian court.

PAD spokesman Parnthep Puapongphan, speaking at the protest site outside Government House, said the government had never supplied any information that could help Veera and Ratree in court.

"Throughout this trial, up until this hour, the government has not provided any information that benefits the two. So it must be held responsible for the negative ruling," Parnthep said yesterday evening.

He said the PAD would file petitions shortly with the National Anti-Corruption Commission and the Administrative Court against the government and certain politicians in relation to their performance over the border conflict in general and the court case in particular.

Senator Kamnoon Sithisamarn said at the PAD protest site yesterday that the guilty verdict was like a "slap in the face" where Thailand's dignity was concerned.

Suthorn Rakrong, coordinator of the TPN, warned that a third party might use the situation to cause more confusion and maybe even lead to a coup by indulging in violent acts such as torching the Cambodian embassy.

"If anything like that really happens, I insist it has nothing to do with the Thai Patriots Network," he said.

The activist also said that leaders of the group would meet this morning to come up with a statement rejecting the Cambodian court's verdict.

-- The Nation 2011-02-02

[asiawatcher]

And now according to today's Thai Rath newspaper they want to demolish the Khmer temple.

Seems a logical solution - get rid of the historical artifact causing all the problem then all the troops can go home. Sounds like the Taliban and the removal of the Buddhist statues. Remove the problem then there is nothing to argue about. As for Veera - som num na. This guy really deserves it but 'spying'? That's a bit thin. As already pointed out by Animatic - the guy is a repeat offender and most likely won't serve full term but he may find being in a Cambodian jail a bit less attractive than a Thai jail where he could have access to some creature comforts thru 'connections'. But let's wait for the round of reprisals and counter claims and appeals...

[whybother]

warn of violence by third party

Why do these guys (both colours) always warn that other people are going to do something bad. It's not third parties. It's their own party - just the violent side of their party.

[whybother]

And now according to today's Thai Rath newspaper they want to demolish the Khmer temple.

I don't think they are talking about demolishing the temple. The "pagoda" they are referring to is a structure ADJACENT TO the temple, with a flag in front of it. At least that's my understanding.

[gk10002000]

Of course my fundamental question is what was their real reason for going there? Was he an idiot stooge prompted by somebody to go and provoke the Cambodians with some promise of something if he did that? Was he a rogue operation? Was he just seeking attention? Was he a misguided patriot thinking this would somehow help Thailand?

Whether the Spy charges are legitmate or not, I don't know, and that is secondary to the issue. He and the others knew they were going to Cambodia, they knew they were in Cambodia. I am sure Thailand would not like it if somebody went into Thailand without proper documentation or permission, i.e. visas.

I hope the man is content with his situation. It sure seems like he was determined to go to Cambodia for whatever reason.

[Valentine]

Of course my fundamental question is what was their real reason for going there? Was he an idiot stooge prompted by somebody to go and provoke the Cambodians with some promise of something if he did that? Was he a rogue operation? Was he just seeking attention? Was he a misguided patriot thinking this would somehow help Thailand?

Whether the Spy charges are legitmate or not, I don't know, and that is secondary to the issue. He and the others knew they were going to Cambodia, they knew they were in Cambodia. I am sure Thailand would not like it if somebody went into Thailand without proper documentation or permission, i.e. visas.

I hope the man is content with his situation. It sure seems like he was determined to go to Cambodia for whatever reason.

From his statements he seems to firmly believe he was in Thai territory regardless of any past agreements or ongoing negotiations & because of this does not believe he is guilty of any crime. In that his actions were purely nationalistic. IMO it was an extremely foolhardy move which has escalated tensions on the border & some seem to be quite happy to go to war over it. <deleted> are they thinking, not rationally. There always seems to be some conspiracy or ulterior motive for all things political & quite possibly the case here. If he showed some remorse right at the start he would probably be home right now. Despite that the espionage verdict is spurious at best.

[Crushdepth]

The charge is ridiculous, but given the contempt with which Veera has treated Cambodia I feel little sympathy.

[virtualtraveller]

Funny thing is, Arisman could be charged with a very similar offence, pity the Cambodian security apparatus is less effective at finding and jailing him. The Cambodian legal system is a joke really, so if you're going to play a high stakes game of crossing into disputed territory this is what you get.

8 Years for allegedly spying? How many years for being a Khmer Rouge leader accused of murdering thousands?

[phiphidon]

Tough prison terms

By THE NATION, AGENCIES

"I was on Thai territory," he told the court through a translator. "I had no intention to invade Cambodian territory."

Veera also cited a Google Earth map to support this argument that he was on Thai territory when Cambodian soldiers arrested him. When asked if he was sure the Cambodian authorities would approve the map, Veera responded that maps on Google Earth were globally accepted and should be considered the most neutral at the moment.

-- The Nation 2011-02-02

The Google Map defence eh? Good Luck with that one, Veera. The Cambodians are not exactly impressed with googles' representation of the Thai/Cambodian border. In fact they said "(The map) is devoid of truth and reality, and professionally irresponsible, if not pretentious,"

More here: http://www.reuters.c...E61406G20100205

[timekeeper]

Funny thing is, Arisman could be charged with a very similar offence, pity the Cambodian security apparatus is less effective at finding and jailing him. The Cambodian legal system is a joke really, so if you're going to play a high stakes game of crossing into disputed territory this is what you get.

8 Years for allegedly spying? How many years for being a Khmer Rouge leader accused of murdering thousands?

allegedly, : a highly placed policeman friend of mine said Arisman was dead

they say he was shot in Cambodia by his own reds to stop him turning when he was caught

[siampolee]

All rather amusing to my mind .

Now Veera has a chance to prove his courage in his convictions both politically and morally by accepting his sentence as part of the passage of rite for his cause.

Edited February 2, 2011 by siampolee

[jayjay0]

The charge is ridiculous, but given the contempt with which Veera has treated Cambodia I feel little sympathy.

Well makes no difference if the charge is ridicules or not.

He is guilty of espionage.

Just because Thai's and farongs can only see scrub land if it is a military base you are spying on it. They do not have to prove he passed any thing on just that he was spying on them. If I am correct he did take a pictures with his phone. Why?

Pretty slim reasoning. It is how ever sufficient to give him what he deserves.

[Buchholz]

Super top secret espionage caught on video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZWSnF5S5e4&feature=related

Cambodia must surely be actively attempting to track down and prosecute Youtube poster "wannaprasart" as well his thousands of viewers for espionage of their highly classified military base.

How the wily spy team got past the superbly trained base security guards depicted in the opening segment and the extremely fortified base remains a mystery.

.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Buchholz

[whybother]

Super top secret espionage caught on video:

Cambodia must surely be actively attempting to track down and prosecute Youtube poster "wannaprasart" as well his thousands of viewers for espionage of their highly classified military base.

How the wily spy team got past the superbly trained base security guards depicted in the opening segment and the extremely fortified base remains a mystery.

Veera supposedly had a camera in his jacket. Was he wearing a jacket?

[Thai at Heart]

The charge is ridiculous, but given the contempt with which Veera has treated Cambodia I feel little sympathy.

Well makes no difference if the charge is ridicules or not.

He is guilty of espionage.

Just because Thai's and farongs can only see scrub land if it is a military base you are spying on it. They do not have to prove he passed any thing on just that he was spying on them. If I am correct he did take a pictures with his phone. Why?

Pretty slim reasoning. It is how ever sufficient to give him what he deserves.

Having seen a friend's camera confiscated because he took a picture of some scenery in China that also included a supposedly important bridge, espionage can be interpreted in a pretty broad manner.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Thai at Heart