Need Help With Aggressive Dog Asap - Please

[blyish]

My dog is becoming more and more aggressive as time passes. First it was just growling when my other dog walked too close to his bone or toy, but lately it's been all-out barking. He's a big dog (a rescue, so he might have issues with past cruelty) and so it gets scary. Yesterday, he attacked my other dog (first time they actually bit each other; up until now it was all noise and show) and I ended up seriously injured. I know, pretty stupid to interfere, but my second dog is small and I thought he was going to die. It was all adrenaline -- I didn't even think about it. The dog is ok but I ended up with two very serious bites. Obviously I don't want to put the dog to sleep, so please I appreciate sensitive responses. I'm aware that this is my fault for not properly training him when he was a baby (he's now about 14 months), but I need to know what I can do now.

I've been searching everywhere for an animal behaviorist and can't find one. I need either a trainer who's worked with aggressive dogs before or somebody who specializes in behavior problems. Is that too much to ask for Thailand? I looked at Thonglor's website but they don't seem to have anybody who specializes in this area. Any suggestions? I'm in serious pain from the injury and this is not something I want to go through again.

[kuffki]

I do not think you will find one in Thailand.

it could be a number of issues.

If it started all over sudden, there might be some trigger that did it, also it may be that he/she is unwell.

Sometimes, when dogs are not well or hurt somewhere they become aggressive to scare everyone.

If you live in Pattaya, i can try to help( i am no expert, but have some experience with dogs) or/and you can also may be email to some professionals overseas or try this link http://www.cesarsway.com/

In this section you will find similar questions from people and answers http://www.cesarsway.com/features/103/104?cat=3

or ask question direct.

Also, but again if you in Pattaya i can give you contact info for the VET i use, he seems to be pretty switched on and if he can not train, i am sure he will direct you in the right direction where to find someone locally.

if you need more help, just PM me or ask here

[blyish]

I do not think you will find one in Thailand.

it could be a number of issues.

If it started all over sudden, there might be some trigger that did it, also it may be that he/she is unwell.

Sometimes, when dogs are not well or hurt somewhere they become aggressive to scare everyone.

If you live in Pattaya, i can try to help( i am no expert, but have some experience with dogs) or/and you can also may be email to some professionals overseas or try this link http://www.cesarsway.com/

In this section you will find similar questions from people and answers http://www.cesarsway...s/103/104?cat=3

or ask question direct.

Also, but again if you in Pattaya i can give you contact info for the VET i use, he seems to be pretty switched on and if he can not train, i am sure he will direct you in the right direction where to find someone locally.

if you need more help, just PM me or ask here

PM sent. Thanks.

[Nienke]

Hi blyish,

I'm sorry that you have been bitten during the fight.

Your dog is at a typical age were it has started to feel physically and mentally strong enough to take a challenge. He doesn't seem very confident about himself (yet), though, hence is need of acting out.

In solving the problem, especially where it concerns an aggression problem, it is not advisable to confront, something that is unfortunately often advised. (e.g. show who's the boss, take the dog by the neck, give it a corrective tug on the lead, put it in the alpha role, push it into a sit, etc.)

Best is to first learn to understand why your dog is acting out. And then, instead of using corrective and punishment methods which only will add to the insecurity of your dog (and can result in an increase of the aggressive behavior), use much better, more efficient, non-confrontational, humane, and safer positive reinforcement techniques to change the mind set of the dog about that what bothers him.

For this it is very important that the owner learns how his/her own interaction with the dog or dogs influences their (mis)behavior and, following that, learn how to change that.

What your dog needs is to change his mind about the stuff he values too high and about the world around him. Punishment and corrective method will not change the underlying motivation, it merely suppresses it if the correction/punishment has been convincing enough for the dog so it will not dare to act out again due to fear of punishment.

I'm a dog behaviorist but are located in Chang Mai. You can find info on my website: www.luckydogs.info

If you would like more information or my help you can contact me by email.

[blyish]

Hi blyish,

I'm sorry that you have been bitten during the fight.

Your dog is at a typical age were it has started to feel physically and mentally strong enough to take a challenge. He doesn't seem very confident about himself (yet), though, hence is need of acting out.

In solving the problem, especially where it concerns an aggression problem, it is not advisable to confront, something that is unfortunately often advised. (e.g. show who's the boss, take the dog by the neck, give it a corrective tug on the lead, put it in the alpha role, push it into a sit, etc.)

Best is to first learn to understand why your dog is acting out. And then, instead of using corrective and punishment methods which only will add to the insecurity of your dog (and can result in an increase of the aggressive behavior), use much better, more efficient, non-confrontational, humane, and safer positive reinforcement techniques to change the mind set of the dog about that what bothers him.

For this it is very important that the owner learns how his/her own interaction with the dog or dogs influences their (mis)behavior and, following that, learn how to change that.

What your dog needs is to change his mind about the stuff he values too high and about the world around him. Punishment and corrective method will not change the underlying motivation, it merely suppresses it if the correction/punishment has been convincing enough for the dog so it will not dare to act out again due to fear of punishment.

I'm a dog behaviorist but are located in Chang Mai. You can find info on my website: www.luckydogs.info

If you would like more information or my help you can contact me by email.

Thanks for responding. I'll send you a message to the email listed on your website.

[sbk]

You have two males? Are the neutered?

[H2oDunc]

I'm sorry but taking your dog to a " head doctor / psychiatrist " is going to do nothing in my opinion. Dogs are pack animals. As such they work on having an alpha male in the pack Your dog is asserting itself as the alpha male. You need to remind it that you and you alone are the alpha male in its pack. As nasty as it sounds, you punishing it when it is aggressive is the way to instil this fact.

I know this isn't the politically correct way these days but it is how things work in the wild.

[blyish]

You have two males? Are the neutered?

Two males and a female. Female is spayed (but she's never involved in the problem anyway). Males were not neutered. One of the dogs (the older one) is a sweet, non-aggressive dog. The one starting trouble is always the same one (the one that bit me). I took the aggressive dog to the vet yesterday to be neutered. Checked on him this morning and he's doing great. Hopefully this will help a little.

[blyish]

I'm sorry but taking your dog to a " head doctor / psychiatrist " is going to do nothing in my opinion. Dogs are pack animals. As such they work on having an alpha male in the pack Your dog is asserting itself as the alpha male. You need to remind it that you and you alone are the alpha male in its pack. As nasty as it sounds, you punishing it when it is aggressive is the way to instil this fact.

I know this isn't the politically correct way these days but it is how things work in the wild.

If you mean physical punishment, then no. That won't be happening anytime soon.

But I do agree that I need to establish myself as the pack leader. I just don't believe that it needs to be through abuse.

[H2oDunc]

Then I am afraid you will fail my friend. You have just had a perfect example of how nature behaves. You do not have to be brutal with the dog just let it know that each time it tries to assert itself as alpha dog you are going to come along and let it know it isn't.

I had a dog that had some pups. As they grew one of the bigger pups started doing what your dog is doing to the smaller dogs. After a few SLAPS it got the message that he wasn't the top dog.

They now all get along fine.

Saying that it's your dog and if you are prepared to let your dog bite you without recourse then good luck to you. You will certainly need it.

People need to remember that nature isn't PC at all. It is harsh and at times savage.

[kuffki]

Then I am afraid you will fail my friend. You have just had a perfect example of how nature behaves. You do not have to be brutal with the dog just let it know that each time it tries to assert itself as alpha dog you are going to come along and let it know it isn't.

I had a dog that had some pups. As they grew one of the bigger pups started doing what your dog is doing to the smaller dogs. After a few SLAPS it got the message that he wasn't the top dog.

They now all get along fine.

Saying that it's your dog and if you are prepared to let your dog bite you without recourse then good luck to you. You will certainly need it.

People need to remember that nature isn't PC at all. It is harsh and at times savage.

I do not think hitting the dog is the way to go, even though you are correct about nature.

There are other ways to assert the dominance, some examples would be

To sit or lie on top of the dog, it shows the top dog yet does not actually hurt the dog

or I imitation of a bite on the neck with your hands, this is what mother and top dog would do.

It does not really hurt the dog, but again does show who the top dog is.

[bina]

the neutering will help a bit however it takes time to kick in and also dependant ont he dog's personality previously... i also made the mistake of separating my two males ; i lifted one by the scruff of the neck as he attempted to get to the jack russell and he swivelled around just when my hand got in the way . fortunately lhasas have small teeth. sharp, but small as he meant to bite, and the bite inhibition didnt kick in on time.

anyhow, age, time they were together, territory all play part. nature is nature but slapping is not the preferred method. forcible separation (sending each dog to its 'place/bed') is reprinmanding each time they start in on each other can tone it all down; also, as nienke pointed out:the young adult dog (like a teenager/prebuscent) placing too much value onits food/bowl/chair/owner means the dog has to be taken down a notck in the hierarchy for sure. basic training is a good way to go: the usual sit/stay/down/settle type thing often helps a dog get itself back in control by having u get back in control. being agressive with aressive dogs exacerbates the problem. being ASSERTIVE however, is the key. and being more physically strong never works. someone like me can work with a huge animal assertively w/o resorting to physical agression. its the mindset that matters.

bina

[saynora]

http://www.k9bangkok.com/about_us.php

Don't know and have never workred with this place. its in bangkok. worth a call though. says hes a behaviorist. contact info is at bottom of page. keep your fingers out of puppy's mouth.

[LeCharivari]

In solving the problem, especially where it concerns an aggression problem, it is not advisable to confront, something that is unfortunately often advised. (e.g. show who's the boss, take the dog by the neck, give it a corrective tug on the lead, put it in the alpha role, push it into a sit, etc.)

Best is to first learn to understand why your dog is acting out. And then, instead of using corrective and punishment methods which only will add to the insecurity of your dog (and can result in an increase of the aggressive behavior), use much better, more efficient, non-confrontational, humane, and safer positive reinforcement techniques to change the mind set of the dog about that what bothers him.

For this it is very important that the owner learns how his/her own interaction with the dog or dogs influences their (mis)behavior and, following that, learn how to change that.

I'm sorry if something has been lost due to language, but this is simply bizarre - you appear to be attributing human traits and training methods to an animal that is a pack animal and, if it is to live happily in a "pack" which includes people, must learn who is the dominant pack leader (the "alpha" role). Dominance does not have to be inhumane, it does not have to involve any physical punishment, it should never make your dog insecure (far from it) but it does occasionally need to be confrontational - that does not mean having a fight with the dog or physically punishing the dog in any way but unless you establish dominance you will never be able to control dogs safely.

While the problem may appear to be between your dogs, rather than with you, it looks as if its nothing more than one dog trying to establish himself as the alpha dog/pack leader - that's your role and the longer it takes for you to establish yourself in that position the more difficult it will be. Its not rocket science, it shouldn't be inhumane, and 99% of the time it doesn't need you to pay an "expert".

[bina]

Le chavi....

what is your background please? nienke is a professional dog behavioralist, english is her second language which may explain the wording used, but i assure u, she definately doewnt see dogs as poeple. far from it....

and we all agree dogs are pack animals but it is important to recognize that breeds have genetic programming for certain attitudes, and that each home has differnt interactions that can cause misunderstanding on a behavioral level between a dog and the humans in the house. nothing happens over night, and changing behavior is more then just dominance/submissive actions. there is often a combination of things including the age of the dog, breed (breeds/mix), ages and dynamics of the rest of the 'pack' i.e. the humans in the house. therefore training/molding behavior is more then a one off 'showing who is boss' scenario...

however, we welcome most types of training methods discussed on this site aprt from thsoe that involve physical violence and cruelty towards the animal;

the topic here is a person asking for help with their dog, not for attacking those that have answered the thread.... constructive help is welcomed.

bina

[LeCharivari]

Bina, I apologise if I appeared to be "attacking" anyone - that was not my intention.

I do, however, disagree strongly with some of the advice given by nienke, namely "it is not advisable to confront, something that is unfortunately often advised. (e.g. show who's the boss, take the dog by the neck, give it a corrective tug on the lead, put it in the alpha role, push it into a sit, etc.) .......... corrective and punishment methods which only will add to the insecurity of your dog (and can result in an increase of the aggressive behavior), use much better, more efficient, non-confrontational, humane, and safer positive reinforcement techniques to change the mind set of the dog about that what bothers him." This advice is not only contrary to my own experience but I believe it is contrary to established and current teaching by the majority of recognised dog handlers and trainers.

I do agree with her, though, that "it is very important that the owner learns how his/her own interaction with the dog or dogs influences their (mis)behavior and, following that, learn how to change that."

From what blyish has written, though, there is nothing to indicate that the dog has behavioural "issues" or is "acting out". The aggression to the other dog has grown "as time passes", as the dog has got bigger and older, and it is directed to the other male dog - not blyish who was "only" bitten when he tried to intervene. The aggression has gone from "noise and show" which went uncorrected to a fight - typical of a young dog asserting himself as pack leader in the absence of one. This has nothing to do with "insecurity" or other "issues" and if this is the full story there is no more need for an animal behaviourist here than there would be a need for a psychiatrist to teach a child the basics of how to behave.

Confrontation, as I tried to make clear, does not have to be physical and should never be inhumane or make a dog insecure, but it is simply unavoidable in some form if blyish wants to take his place as pack leader over a dog that already appears to think that that is his role.

If I gave the impression that I though that "a one off 'showing who is boss' scenario" would solve the problem then I failed to make my view clear at all. Far from suggesting that it is a "one off", it is an on-going process that is constantly re-confirmed; my point was that the longer it was before this process started, the longer it would take to have an effect and the more work it would require.

To answer your question, my "background" is in the military; this included using trained dogs in a number of roles (security, tracking, search, etc) and supervising and training a specialist animal support unit of 120 dogs, handlers and vets. Consequently I do have a considerable amount of experience with dog training, including aggressive dogs, although I would never pretend to be an expert - it wasn't my speciality. I am not a "professional dog behaviourist", nor a "professional" anything as I am retired. I have never been a "professional dog behaviourist", nor have I or any of my dog handlers ever needed one. While I have no doubt that those who are fully trained and qualified as animal behaviourists are good at their job, as were any I met in the UK where qualification means passing a three year full time degree course, like any other profession there are good and bad anywhere; I have no experience of any of those in Thailand and cannot comment on their ability, so my comments were not criticising nienke as a dog behaviourist, even though I disagree with her advice - I simply don't think that an animal behaviourist is required here any more than a trip to a child psychiatrist is called for if a child misbehaves.

[bina]

ok.... )

although i dont think i like most of the army methods, here in israel the 'oketz' team (k-9 corps)also use various more 'agressive' methods, because that is what is needed for the working dogs.

i have found that grabbing certain breeds by the scruff and shaking instigates a super agressive reaction; namely in rothweilers, boxers, malinois and some others. the action releases certain hormones that are part of the fight /flight reaction, only in those breeds, it becomes the 'fight' part... there are other, more 'brain-oriented' methods that can be used first--

feeding only at certain times, after 'working' for the food; not being allowed out of the door until after 'boss' has gone out door; realizing that one of the dogs is indeed the more dominant between them, and dealing with him/her first, always, keeps the tension between the dogs organized (u cant change the dogs' place in hierarchy it just causes tension, although u can make order out of chaos. in my house, the dominant one eats first, then he allows the bitch to eat. recently, tables ahve turned as she has reached 3 years old, and she doesnt allow him in the house or to eat until after she has done so. we are still the bosses. and any sign of major skirmishes , both get sent to their individual places. however, between them, they work it out. we have a small house, and two- three house dogs (one has moved in with my ex in laws down the road, with their dog).

the more 'agressive' methods are more problematic when used by unskilled people who cannot read their dogs' and can indeed result in major 'confontations' that end up with someone getting bitten. 'softer' methods, take longer, but unless the dog is a nut case, can be resolved. different methods for different folks, and different dogs.

bina

israel

[LeCharivari]

Bina,

I agree with you entirely , but the "aggressive" side of training dogs for military/police work is only one side of the training - it only applies to guard dogs who need to apply "the bite" on command (but only on command). Even then this has to be carefully controlled, particularly in countries where the handlers are likely to be smaller than the dogs (as quite often applied in Hong Kong!) or in a hot climate where excitable dogs can overheat and can only be used for a very limited period of time (sometimes as little as 20 minutes in crowd control duties).Other dogs are trained totally differently and although some may change role if they are not suitable for their original role for a number of reasons (too aggressive, not aggressive enough, not consistent enough with scents, etc) few are good enough to be "jack of all trades" and, particularly in the military in all the countries I have worked with/for, they need to be master of their specialty and in the majority of cases, to many people's surprise, aggression is the one trait that is not wanted.

EOD dogs are used to sniff out explosives, either among civilians (at airports, border crossings and checkpoints, etc) where beagles are usually the dog of choice as they are not only consistent but they are not intimidating to the public (particularly important with children) or in the open (IEDs, roadside bombs, etc) where labradors are the most common breed.

Patrol dogs are still used by some armies to detect both explosives (IEDs and mines/tripwires) and the opposition, preferably silently; pointer variants are the most common as these dogs are trained to pick up scents and indicate rather than to follow them.

Tracker dogs are used by many countries on border patrols, for example in Hong Kong when it was a British Territory. When an illegal immigrant (II) had been sighted or a crossing picked up but they could not be found a tracker dog would be used to follow a specific scent; black labradors were most commonly used as they needed to be comfortable in the water and marshes and they also needed to be non-aggressive as the IIs often included children and mothers with babies and very few IIs offered violence.

"not being allowed out of the door until after 'boss' has gone out door" is actually a perfect example of what I meant by confrontation, as it establishes dominance and a pecking order which includes all those in the house (big or small, 2 legs or 4). It doesn't have to involve physical contact, and it certainly shouldn't involve violence, but it will be a physical confrontation even if it is only a battle of wills.

I was amused by your feeding order, as mine is sometimes similar even though I have eight feeding bowls (always the same one for a specific dog, or for two or three dogs who like to share) so there is never a feeding frenzy. The bassets are the most protective of their "bit" of their extra large bowl, with the twin sisters sometimes ganging up on the older male ("the boss") until he has had enough and puts them in their place. Strangely enough the smallest dog of all (a shih-tzu bitch) can eat without any problem at all from any bowl she likes, even from the one-eyed ban-kaew/german-shepherd cross who is very protective of his bowl with the other dogs and is both unpredictable and often aggressive to anyone or anything - a "nut-case" after he was shot in the head, but lovable and playful 90% of the time; when she decides to help herself from his bowl he simply looks on quietly, tail wagging gently, and waits patiently until she has taken whatever she wants!

" 'brain-oriented' " training tends to beat mindless aggression every time, for people as well as dogs!!

[Cuban]

Been a few weeks now - how is this case progressing ?

[blyish]

Sorry I haven't been back till now. For some reason I was never notified that there were new posts on this thread and just noticed them now. Fights continued after my post (though I was smarter to stop them with a water gun rather than my hand). In the end, I had to start making decisions.

First one, get both dogs neutered. Should've done this before but was living in a third-world country until 3 months ago and was afraid to put them through surgery. Figured it was safer now that I'm in Thailand, so on with that. I took one dog at a time so I could stay with the other one at home and work in a bit of training. Big dog went first. He had surgery and I left him at the hospital for a whole week (until they took the stitches out). When he came home, the other dog went in ( couple of days break in between). He's still at the hospital.

I know it will take a few months before hormones start to go down, but at least is a step in the right direction.

Next, I'm splitting my yard in two. I'm paying somebody to build a fence (with a gate) on the side of my house. This will separate the front yard from the back yard. Until I can figure out a way to stop the fighting, I'll keep them separate. I don't want to risk more bites or the small dog getting seriously injured. Also, since the fence is mesh, they'll get a chance to smell each other and hopefully get used to each other and relax a bit.

Third, I'm working on training the big dog. Funny thing is, now that he's alone with me in the house, he's been a pleasure of a dog. Incredibly obedient. Learned the "sit" command in a day and now I'm working with him on feeding him by hand (he was incredibly possessive of the food bowl) before and that's going well too. Make him come to me for food, sit and then he gets a handful. I move away and then do it all over again. This to me is a sign that the problem is definitively the other dog and not me.

Fourth, when the other dog comes home, I'm hoping I'll get them to interact (maybe find somebody who can go along with me for walks; each of us with one leash/dog), so they spend time together.

I don't know how much these things are going to help, but I'm making changes as I can. Hopefully the combination of all these things will help.

[LeCharivari]

I am sure some people will throw their hands up in horror, but now would be a good time to get your dog to accept wearing a muzzle - first for brief periods when alone, then whenever both dogs are together until you are confident that he won't bite you or your other dog. It may sound cruel, but a properly fitted soft net-type muzzle is a lot less painful than a dog bite and will allow you to socialize them in relative safety.

Giving them separate areas could make the problem worse, making the dominant dog more protective of "his" area - particularly if at some stage you take the fence down when your other dog will become an intruder. I would think carefully about this, as it is treating the symptom rather than the problem and it could undermine your training which sounds to be going well..

[BuckarooBanzai]

A pack takes love and confrontation. My 2nd alpha female is presently sick and taking it out on the rest of my pack. I consider my Thai wife to be my 1st alpha female but some times the dogs debate this. I treat them accordingly.

You need to look them, the dogs, in the eye and not be afraid. This sounds simple but if you are the least bit hesitant you will loose. Anything else is confrontational. You need to know you have control. They will understand and except your wishes.

People have lost their sense of nature!

[BuckarooBanzai]

I am sorry to say, if the dog does not accept your guidance then it is best to start a new relationship with a new dog. We are not here to take care of incorrigible dogs.Tough Love! It hurts me too.

Edited February 21, 2011 by BuckarooBanzai

[bina]

lechari is correct; fencing will tend to cause more 'border' problems ; i feel that the neutering and the training, and you, acknoleging that the one dog IS the main boss between the two dogs, will help straighten out the order. refrain from paying too much attention to the less dominant dog first. feed and deal with the more dominant one first, then the second one. u are the main man of course (or woman) but it helps the dogs to know there is order and hierarchy in the family. u can also work with them both, always calling the dominant one first, then the other, etc... do not make a fuss over the 'beaten up' dog, it just will make things worse. place both dogs in their places when they skirmish too much. a little bit of skirmishing for place, food, bed, bone, and petting is ok, if they manage to work it out (usually the less dominant one will back off and sit and wait til he gets the ok, from the dominant one)... make sure the less dominant one IS getting to his food and eating and isnt too hassled. and, btw, u would be surprised to see what happens if u arent around. they may really get along without u being present which would suggest thta u are the key factor in the inbalance...

why would a dog need a week of vet care after a castration . its an in/out procedure, much cleaner and less problematic then a spay?

bina

israel

[LeCharivari]

why would a dog need a week of vet care after a castration . its an in/out procedure, much cleaner and less problematic then a spay?

My thoughts too. After the operation all that's needed is to have the stitches taken out after a week, and as long as the cut has fully healed most people can do that themselves. Any "hospital" suggesting a week's stay is, to put it mildly, taking advantage of you.