New Zealand Girl Dies Of Food Poisoning In Chiang Mai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

All the 'drivel' was to establish that this is not about a single place, single type of eatery, single dish or single ingredient. I think anyone who spent some time in Thailand will know that an allegedly fancy restaurant is just as likely to give you a stomach problem as a place on the street. (And perhaps even more so, there are certain very popular street food vendors who I'd trust more than a random newly opened restaurant that happened to have the money for tablecloths and airconditioning)

[crusader79]

Source: guardian.co.uk

link broken?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20403844/ns/health-health_care/

[metisdead]

Rather than keep this topic in Chiang Mai forum, I'll move this to Thailand News.

[skippybangkok]

RIP, and such a waste of such a beautiful young life.

My family got severely hit on the eve before my wedding, it really is scary stuff.

[AleG]

WTK is correct as he often is. I'm friendly with a guy that owns a small restaurant that I eat at often. He also happens to be a doctor here in town. When he is there in the evenings, we often chat. He told me that many, many Thais die from food poisoning every day in hospitals all over the country. He says that the hygiene in food preparation is very poor in Thailand even in expensive places. That is one reason he owns a restaurant. He makes no profit from it. He just likes to go there and prepare his food, watch TV and read. He knows what he is eating as supervises all of the purchases himself and has certain standards of cleanliness that are followed by his staff.

So indeed some are asking for preferential treatment of foreigners in reporting.

Lets put aside "Name and Shame" for a moment, how about "Name and Praise"? could you give the name of the place so we can put it in the safe list?

[Thaddeus]

On reading this news I have a couple of thoughts.

What an absolute tragedy and my deepest heartfelt wishes go out to the poor girls friends and family, may she rest in peace.

Secondly, is there a chance that there was nothing wrong with the food but something in it triggered an allergic reaction. I know it would be odd for two people in the same party to have the same allergy, but no more odd than the hospitals not being full of people who all ate poisoned food.

//edit/typo

Edited February 9, 2011 by Thaddeus

[dingdongrb]

well I suppose you could look at a list of ingredients and uh google it.

Hmmmmmm... remind me that when the next time I go out to eat to take my laptop with me and hope for some free wireless within range..... Duhhhhhhh

My sincere condolences go out to the friends and family of this young lady. May she RIP.... and her friends make a complete recovery.

[geriatrickid]

Please consider the following;

1. No autopsy results yet. It is therefore mere speculation as to the factors of illness and death.

It will take several days to obtain an indication from a toxicolgy assay. A reliable autopsy result will most likely come after the deceased arrives back in NZ and an autopsy is performed. Reliable results can take weeks and even months. There are tests and reviews and these take time. Despite what one sees on the television, it is a rare event when odd deaths are rapidly explained.

2. Autopsies are not a standard undertaking in Thailand. It is more likely to have a suspicious death and no detailed autopsy in Thailand than the other way around. Hence, the importance of repatriating the body asap.

3, The first reports indicate 3 women manifested illness with one requiring "emergency" heart surgery. One of the women did not consume the seaweed. It is possible there could have been cross contimantion during food preparation and something as simple as a nasty strain of e. coli. For 3 people to manifest symptoms after consuming a different meal, yet from the same source, it suggests food preparation.

4. No details are given in respect to the emergency heart surgery. It isn't usual to do that, as there are multiple non intrusive methods to initiate circulation. Was the subject's heart parlayzed as part of a systemic vital organ shutdown? Was it percarditis? If so, it takes time to develop. A rapid shutdown of vital organs suggest a man made poison or a toxin is involved. A doctor may have screwed up and misdiagnosed. However even an incompetent physician wouldn't normally undertake drastic procedures in a case of possible food poisoning unless he or she had a good idea of what was going on.

I think that if people want answers, they will have to wait for the NZ based investigation results, which hopefully the deceased's parents will ensure occurs.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

well I suppose you could look at a list of ingredients and uh google it.

Hmmmmmm... remind me that when the next time I go out to eat to take my laptop with me and hope for some free wireless within range..... Duhhhhhhh

My sincere condolences go out to the friends and family of this young lady. May she RIP.... and her friends make a complete recovery.

you took my quote out of context. I was talking about how common it was for seaweed based products to be used in common foods and that people could learn what they are eating by reading ingredient lists and are in fact very common to consume seaweed products everyday.

Next time you see an alginate, carrageenan, MSG, kelp etc then it's often seaweed based product.

Many thickened soups use seaweed based thickeners. The point being if your eating a soup at a outlet without ingredients listed then a person might have an idea how it was thickened.

Seaweeds are not inherently safe or dangerous but dependent on the quality.

On of the benefits and dangers of Seaweed is that many varieties absorb toxins like a sponge. That property can be very beneficial for cleaning up toxic spills and cleansing the body. Unfortunately however if seaweeds are harvested in polluted waters then they may contain very high levels of toxic substances like arsenic, cadmium, mercury etc.

If products are being generated using low standards or quality testing then seaweed foods are a area of concern.

In the land of cutting corners then it's an unfortunate side effect.

Hopefully there is more reporting and toxicology information on this accident so measures are implemented from it happening to other innocent and underserving consumers.

Edited February 9, 2011 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[TigerWan]

It's very sad to read this kind of news, then not a single word on the local press like if foreigners aren't worth to

Sorry to snip you off mid-rant, but you may have noticed that there IS no local press. At least not daily. There is Bangkok based press, who are at least a day behind any events that happens outside of Bangkok. So we may see it tomorrow, or the day after.

And I say 'MAY'. Because people die all the time, there are only so many pages available and newspapers do need to fit in things other than pictures of dead people. On the same day, dozens of other people died from all kinds of incidents and accidents. I'm not sure what your demand to the press is based on. But they'll probably accommodate; give them a day or two.

Note in general: I see this a lot on this forum (Not just Chiang Mai forum), the whining about " foreigners aren't worth to be mentioned" but what you're ACTUALY and OBJECTIVELY asking for is for foreigners to be given preferential treatment in reporting. Somehow every incident involving a foreigner should be given a full page of investigative journalism, even though Thais also die left right and center.

WTK is correct as he often is. I'm friendly with a guy that owns a small restaurant that I eat at often. He also happens to be a doctor here in town. When he is there in the evenings, we often chat. He told me that many, many Thais die from food poisoning every day in hospitals all over the country. He says that the hygiene in food preparation is very poor in Thailand even in expensive places. That is one reason he owns a restaurant. He makes no profit from it. He just likes to go there and prepare his food, watch TV and read. He knows what he is eating as supervises all of the purchases himself and has certain standards of cleanliness that are followed by his staff.

So indeed some are asking for preferential treatment of foreigners in reporting.

Agree , standards of hygiene are alarming and somewhat a dirty little secret.

I've seen my allegedly college trained Dr Vet Med wipe the table with a filthy rag after spilling my kitten's abdominal fluid all over it , and then the next patient is placed there. ( kitten died too, of IV saturation I am sure.)

I've never once seen alcohol used on an injection and I help out at a rescue and have seen hundreds.

Or every restaurant has ill trained staff using soiled table wiping cloths to wipe dry cleaned dishes, etc etc .

But back OT -

I'd like to know what were the symptoms ? Brings back shades of Phi Phi utter mystery deaths of 2 women, Julie Bergen and Jill . Onge in spring 09.

I've known of a person who felt deliberately poisoned by hotel staff after complaining about an earlier meal- massive vomiting and a real risk of dehydration occurs if the victim has been using alcohol, especially.

Edited February 9, 2011 by TigerWan

[Lancelot]

I think that if people want answers, they will have to wait for the NZ based investigation results, which hopefully the deceased's parents will ensure occurs.

I agree.

[Hawaiian]

Puffer fish toxicity depends on where the fish are caught. I was told the coral that makes up most of their diet is the culprit. Some corals are more potent than others. A Japanese friend of mine used to prepare it for us and showed me how to clean the fish. He explained what part of the "guts" to discard. Of course he made the final inspection before cooking and serving.

Now that I am older and wiser I stay away from it. Not worth the risk.

Ciguatera is another matter. Unless testing is done there is no way to determine if a fish is dangerous. Because the toxin is cumulative it is the larger predator fish that cause the most damage. They feed on the smaller reef fish that eat the algae that contain the toxin.

While I had only mild effects, one of my fishing partners suffered a very severe attack from fish we had caught and eaten. He was advised not to eat any seafood for at least a year.

For the poster that did not know that seaweed could be toxic, try googling "red tide."

[kitteung]

Rip

Have read reports over the news about similar incidents invloving Thais. Also, many Thais I know do not eat seaweed from unreliable sources.

Most of the toxic seaweed in the markets originates from Burma. The seaweed itself is not toxic but the preservatives(chemicals) used can be. Ever noticed the big bags of the stuff for sale in Mae Sai?

At the market, this stuff is usually not rinsed but taken out of the bag and chopped/added directly over the pot. Watch out for dishes such as Dtom juut.

[chuang]

[Lets put aside "Name and Shame" for a moment, how about "Name and Praise"? could you give the name of the place so we can put it in the safe list?

Sad real sad...RIP..

Must they wait for another tragic food poisoning before they name the stall..

[caf]

[Lets put aside "Name and Shame" for a moment, how about "Name and Praise"? could you give the name of the place so we can put it in the safe list?

Sad real sad...RIP..

Must they wait for another tragic food poisoning before they name the stall..

I think the difficulty is the defamation laws here. Everyone need to be careful, whether as an individual or as a forum owner

[WinnieTheKhwai]

3, The first reports indicate 3 women manifested illness with one requiring "emergency" heart surgery. One of the women did not consume the seaweed. It is possible there could have been cross contimantion during food preparation and something as simple as a nasty strain of e. coli. For 3 people to manifest symptoms after consuming a different meal, yet from the same source, it suggests food preparation.

4. No details are given in respect to the emergency heart surgery. It isn't usual to do that, as there are multiple non intrusive methods to initiate circulation. Was the subject's heart parlayzed as part of a systemic vital organ shutdown? Was it percarditis? If so, it takes time to develop. A rapid shutdown of vital organs suggest a man made poison or a toxin is involved. A doctor may have screwed up and misdiagnosed. However even an incompetent physician wouldn't normally undertake drastic procedures in a case of possible food poisoning unless he or she had a good idea of what was going on.

I think that if people want answers, they will have to wait for the NZ based investigation results, which hopefully the deceased's parents will ensure occurs.

Agreed. However the parents may not want to make the results public. (HInt: You missed a possibility number 5, one that is much more likely than seaweed. It's pure speculation, but so is everything else posted on this topic to date. Whatever the cause, it remains very, VERY sad. )

Edited February 9, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[bonobo]

First of all my condolences to the family and friends of Sarah - what a terrible tragedy!

They most probable can't be sure yet what really caused the food poisoning - of course the doctor tries to find out first - if there are several patients with the same symptoms - what they ate or drank in common to eliminate items which not all of them had - and could most likely not be the cause for the poisoning.

To cause such a sever reaction there must have almost certainly a toxin been involved. As food poisoning is caused by bacteria and - often mistakenly diagnosed as food poisoning - by a virus either Rota or most common the dreaded Norovirus - which causes the same symptoms as bacterial food poisoning.

Then there is tetrodotoxin poisoning, which has killed people in Thailand when they ate horseshoe crab eggs. The bacteria resides in many fish as well as toads, newts, etc., which eat it.

Cooking does not kill the bacteria, but vendors in Chonburi claim they have cooking methods which render the crabs safe.

[yesterday]

a lot of products are made with seaweed like MSG, carrageenan and alginate. It might have just been a small ingredient in a larger dish.

MSG is a flavor enhancer originally made from fermented Kombu

Alginates are commonly used for texture and stabilization. Often made from brown kelp.

Carrageenan is a used as a thickener in many soups

There are a lot of other seaweed ingredients in common foods.

It's kind of amazing how clueless people can be about what is in their food they eat.

A young beautiful twenty three year old girl comes here on her vacation and dies from some type of toxic food she and her friends injested in Chiang Mai

Somehow you find the need to google food thickners etc. and procede to lecture TV readers about : " amazing how clueless people can be about what is in the foods they eat"

I am so very sure her Mom and Dad and for that matter anybody on God's earth gives a care about what you think !

Edited February 9, 2011 by yesterday

[Fookhaht]

http://www.relax.com..._diarrhoea.html

Revealing article about another food/water-borne illness endured by travelers: Diarrhoea.

Thailand is the 3rd-worst country in the world for this disease--worse than any country in Africa. Only India and Egypt are worse.

Speaks volumes about the lack of proper sanitation in homes and restaurants. I am always amazed at how my friends and neighbors here leave food out in the heat for hours, sometimes all day, and then consume it later.

The first three months of living in Thailand were hell-on-earth for me as I battled bug after bug from food-borne bacteria served in restaurants and eateries locally. I survived, but sadly, some don't.

RIP.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Fookhaht

[Ulysses G.]

I am so very sure her Mom and Dad and for that matter anybody on God's earth gives a care about what you think !

Congratulations on bashing one of Thai Visa's most polite, informative and useful posters.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[EyesWideOpen]

 I suspect it was sushi. I had food poisoning from some sushi my Thai girlfriend had brought home from a small vendor on walking street. I was violently puking my guts out and passing out at the same time all night. I accused my girlfriend of my trying to kill me with bad food.....  :-)

 I have had serious food poisoning here in Asia about  5 times in the last 12 years. It is just a result of poor food storage and care. Had a case of botulism from a hamburger I ate in Phnom Penh last year. I could not walk, and was sure I was not going to see the morning light. Now I carry 500 milligram tabs of ciprofloxacin. When things are looking bad, I take two of them at the same time. Sort of a nuclear blast for the bugs multiplying in your stomach....... 

My deepest sympathies to the family. To have a child cut down so young must be beyond devastating. 

[jackr]

All the 'drivel' was to establish that this is not about a single place, single type of eatery, single dish or single ingredient.

The needless bumph, almost making light of the situation, is what's not needed here. I think it'd be best off all around if some of you would simply post RIP.

[jayjay0]

RIP

[Atmos]

Doctors not sure if Thai seafood to blame

JO MOIR

Last updated 05:00 10/02/2011

HAPPIER TIMES:

Victoria University friends from left, Amanda Eliason, Sarah Carter (deceased), and Emma Langlands at a Law Society Ball.

The Taranaki survivor of a horror meal in Thailand still does not know what it was that killed her friend and left her own life hanging in the balance.

Early reports said that eating toxic seaweed had cost Sarah Carter, 23, her life and made Kaponga's Amanda Eliason, 24, and a third travel companion, Emma Langlands, 23, violently ill.

But doctors are not convinced the seafood dish was to blame and are hoping further tests will eventually determine the cause.

Speaking to the Taranaki Daily News from her hospital bed in northern Thailand last night, Ms Eliason said all three had eaten dinner at a food market late last week and began vomiting early the next morning.

"By 10.30am we called hotel reception and they said they would arrange for a doctor to come and see us.

"Sarah and Emma were put on an IV (intravenous drip) to rehydrate but the doctor couldn't find a vein for me, so I was given an injection instead."

She said the vomiting stopped for four hours but by late afternoon they were all ill again.

"After getting back in touch with the doctor we were told to go to hospital and by 1am on Friday morning we were all in hospital."

Ms Eliason eventually needed heart surgery to assist her recovery but doctors lost the battle to save Ms Carter.

Ms Langlands was not as badly affected by the poisoning.

Ms Eliason said she was moved from intensive care to a general ward in the Chiang Mai Ram Hospital yesterday and was hopeful of being discharged in the next few days.

Her parents, Peter and Kay Eliason, are at her bedside, which she said had made a huge difference.

"I've had heaps of messages of support and I can't explain how lucky I've been with the care I've had in the hospital. The doctors and nurses have been here for me every step of the way.

"I just got moved into a general ward and will hopefully be with Emma, as we're likely to be discharged at the same time.

"Hopefully we'll both be on flights home next week."

Ms Eliason expects to undergo long-term check-ups when she comes home.

"The cardiologist over here said I am at about 95 per cent of my recovery at this stage, so I guess that's good news."

Ms Carter's mother and brother are expected to bring her body home this week. Funerals are planned in her home city of Auckland and in Wellington, where she worked.

Her devastated father, Richard Carter, paid tribute to his daughter, saying she had "touched the hearts of everyone she knew".

Edited February 10, 2011 by genghis61

[mic6ard]

I am not saying that this is the cause of this tragedy but just wondering. Food for thought.

BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) - Unscrupulous vendors in Thailand have been selling meat of the deadly puffer fish disguised as salmon, causing the deaths of more than 15 people over the past three years, a doctor said Thursday.

Although banned since 2002, puffer fish continues to be sold in large quantities at local markets and restaurants, said Narin Hiransuthikul of Bangkok's Chulalonkorn University Hospital.

``Some sellers dye the meat of puffer fish and make it look like salmon which is very dangerous,'' Narin said.

Narin said over the past three years more than 15 people have died and about 115 were hospitalized from eating the fish.

Source: guardian.co.uk

Despite the care taken in preparation, in some cases the diner experiences numbness in the tongue and lips, sensations that often disappear. In other cases these symptoms are followed by more serious events such as headaches, nausea, vomiting and paralysis of the face and extremities. Extreme cases will experience acute paralysis, respiratory distress, convulsions, cardiac arrhythmia and speech impairment and finally, death.

Umm, I believe that puffers are white meat fish, so how can they be disguise as salmon???. And the size differences between the two species!!!.

Edited February 10, 2011 by mic6ard

[mic6ard]

There are so many things that will cause those symptoms. From so many sources. Food hygiene (HACCP) in this country is pretty much minimal at best. From what I've read, it's probably toxins from bacteria, then again there are MANY different species, toxins, etc to think about. The seaweed itself is probably the culprit, but rather something contaminated the food.

Apologies if I got a little technical.

My point is that eating food in this country (or any other) from street vender is a risk that we all have to take.

[animatic]

I thought MSG was derived from cassava starch?? I think it was originally from seaweed but no longer produced that way.

Meanwhile here we are throwing around these theories and hypotheses and not a word from the local press!

MSG was originally made from Sugar Beet Root or Betrabe in french.

In harvest season they actually are a deadly road hazard, since they fall off the wagons and are the size and hardness of coconuts. They have been known to flip small cars that hit them at speed.

Edited February 10, 2011 by animatic

[TigerWan]

Doctors not sure if Thai seafood to blame

JO MOIR

....

Early reports said that eating toxic seaweed had cost Sarah Carter, 23, her life and made Kaponga's Amanda Eliason, 24, and a third travel companion, Emma Langlands, 23, violently ill.

But doctors are not convinced the seafood dish was to blame....

Ms Eliason said all three had eaten dinner at a food market late last week and began vomiting early the next morning....

"Sarah and Emma were put on an IV (intravenous drip) to rehydrate but the doctor couldn't find a vein for me, so I was given an injection instead."

She said the vomiting stopped for four hours but by late afternoon they were all ill again.

"After getting back in touch with the doctor we were told to go to hospital and by 1am on Friday morning we were all in hospital."

....

Extreme vomiting with no other food bacterial symptoms like diarrhea is is exactly like 7 or so other deaths in Andaman Krabi/ Phuket region in Spring and summer 2009 and my friend's case too though she began vomiting within an hour or so. It's the severe dehydration that is dangerous and kills.

Edited February 10, 2011 by TigerWan

[yesterday]

I am so very sure her Mom and Dad and for that matter anybody on God's earth gives a care about what you think !

Congratulations on bashing one of Thai Visa's most polite, informative and useful posters.

You left out his senseless, insensitive drivel that prompt me to post

“ It's kind of amazing how clueless people can be about what is in their food they eat.”

A young girl on vacation ,eats dinner and dies . Your TV comrade post how clueless she is , how clueless everybody is in their knowledge of food ingredients.

Many people do not have the leisurely time to Google, organise , compose, then post their new found drivel on TV to boost their image .

What for you is ‘polite, informative and useful “ in this case was clearly some of the most insensitive, self serving garbage for the norm reading here on TV.

[yesterday]

I am so very sure her Mom and Dad and for that matter anybody on God's earth gives a care about what you think !

Congratulations on bashing one of Thai Visa's most polite, informative and useful posters.

You left out his senseless, insensitive drivel that prompt me to post

" It's kind of amazing how clueless people can be about what is in their food they eat."

A young girl on vacation ,eats dinner and dies . Your TV comrade post how clueless she is , how clueless everybody is in their knowledge of food ingredients.

Many people do not have the leisurely time to Google, organise , compose, then post their new found drivel on TV to boost their image .

What for you is 'polite, informative and useful " in this case was clearly some of the most insensitive, self serving garbage for the norm reading here on TV.

Mr. U,

Perhaps to be a bit more objective you need to concentrate more on the post content , not which one of your TV buddies is posting it .