Humphrey Bear Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Speaking to the Taranaki Daily News from her hospital bed in northern Thailand last night, Ms Eliason said all three had eaten dinner at a food market late last week and began vomiting early the next morning. "By 10.30am we called hotel reception and they said they would arrange for a doctor to come and see us. Sarah and Emma were put on an IV (intravenous drip) to rehydrate but the doctor couldn't find a vein for me, so I was given an injection instead." She said the vomiting stopped for four hours but by late afternoon they were all ill again. "After getting back in touch with the doctor we were told to go to hospital and by 1am on Friday morning we were all in hospital." Ms Eliason eventually needed heart surgery to assist her recovery but doctors lost the battle to save Ms Carter. Ms Langlands was not as badly affected by the poisoning. Ms Eliason said she was moved from intensive care to a general ward in the Chiang Mai Ram Hospital yesterday and was hopeful of being discharged in the next few days. This does not sound to me like normal food poisoning. The initial time-lag before vomiting seems long, the recurrence after a few hours of treatment is also not normal in the cases I have had. I hope there is an autopsy, with published results, and a tox-screen of the two survivors. I feel very sorry for all involved, the girls and their families, but I am also suspicious of the nature of the poisoning. Seems more chemical than biological. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smedly Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 very sad story indeed - RIP I don't like to speculate but is it possible that the initial treatment for their food poisoning may actually have had a problem, where they given an incorrect drug, I notice that one of the girls was not as ill as the other two also one of the girls was treated differently perhaps just coincidence. I do hope there is a full investigation into, we would all like to know what caused this and as mentioned already - Why just these two people that got extremely ill and one not so ill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsflynn603 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The only article I could find was one about fish eating toxic seaweed and the fish becoming toxic. I think I'll be avoiding sea fish, thank you. I agree the seaweed theory seems unlikely. You're talking about ciguetera, an interesting disease that can be an issue all over the world. Dinoflagellates that contain endotoxins (which happens to be the most virulent ocean toxin on a weight basis) can attach itself to seaweed. Tiny fish eat the seaweed and coincidentally eat the dinoflagellates (or eat them directly) bigger fish can eat the tiny fish, so the toxin accumulates, then we eat the bigger fish and whammo... However I have never heard of a case of ciguetera caused by eating seaweed, the toxin needs to be accumulated via the food chain, so Ciguetera is unlikely here. Someone posted about "dry seaweed." In reality seaweed can contain endotoxins, and storage in a dry state can increase the endotoxin by a factor of over 100x. Recently a few massage workers suffered sever ill effects from breathing seaweed dust/vapors during a seaweed massage. The problem here is we really don't have much in facts. The stories say that the poisoning was caused by seaweed in a market. The women did not purchase seaweed to bring home, to cook, they purchased ready made food. Two ordered separate meals, both became ill, one died. There is no evidence that seaweed was present in the second dish, therefore we really have no idea if seaweed was the culprit. Until autopsy results are released (if ever) we'll never really know what the cause was, and I'll wave at the media (pointing a finger is not appropriate in Thailand) for poor journalism. This story brings to mind a poisoning that occurred when I was very young, decades ago. One member of a family became very ill. Food poisoning was suspect. Then another became ill and another. Eventually the cause was found. High in a kitchen cabinet was a box of rat poison. A rodent had chewed a hole in the bottom (and presumably left for rodent heaven). Every time the cabinet door was closed, the vibration caused a tiny amount of rat poison to sift down onto whater food happened to be in the process of being prepared. Four of seven in the family perished before the cause was found. Here, since two people were affected and one died, if the second meal did not contain seaweed, then seaweed is not likely the cause. Contaminated oil, water, herbs or garlic stored in oil, or any substance that harbored toxin producing bacteria could be the culprit. It could be a form of poisoning related to seaweed harvest also as the following shows: (though I have never heard of a recent case) "According to an ancient Hawaiian legend, there lived in the Hana district on Maui a man who always seemed to be busy planting and harvesting. Whenever the people in the neighborhood went fishing, upon their return, one of the group was missing. This went on for some time without the people having any explanation about the disappearances. At last the fishermen became suspicious of the man who tended his humble patch. They grabbed him, tore off his clothes and discovered on his back the mouth of a shark. They killed and burned him and threw the ashes into the sea. At the spot where this happened, so goes the legend, the limu (seaweed) became toxic. The tidepool containing the poisonous limu subsequently became kapu (sacred) to the Hawaiians. They would cover the limu with stones and were very secretive about its location. They firmly believed that disaster would strike if anyone were to attempt to gather the toxic limu (later identified as a soft coral, Palythoa toxica). This toxic moss was known as "limu make o Hana" (deadly seaweed of Hana) and from this material, Professor Paul J. Scheuer at the University of Hawaii extracted by ethanol a new substance he named palytoxin [26]. [Editor's note: palytoxin is not produced by the red seaweed, but by the small soft coral mistaken as seaweed.] The crude ethanol extracts of the Palythoa toxica proved to be so toxic that an accurate LD50 was difficult to determine. More recently, the toxicity has been determined to be 50-100 ng/kg i.p. in mice. The compound is an intense vasoconstrictor; in dogs, it causes death within 5 min at 60 ng/kg. By extrapolation, a toxic dose in a human would be about 4 micrograms. It is the most toxic organic substance known! (emphasis added) See: http://www.asanltr.c...Neurotoxins.htm Note: LDL50 is the average dose at which, if 100 people were given that dose, 50 would be expected to die. It's a very sad story and I hope that the cause is found, and I hope that CM's public health closed the food shop temporarily and seized all foodstuffs impounded so as to find the cause, as well as do a recall and education campaign on suspected foods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beetlejuice Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Such a beautiful young girl. Heartbreaking. This is Thailand, so do not expect any investigations to track down the source of the poisoned food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsflynn603 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) All the 'drivel' was to establish that this is not about a single place, single type of eatery, single dish or single ingredient. I think anyone who spent some time in Thailand will know that an allegedly fancy restaurant is just as likely to give you a stomach problem as a place on the street. (And perhaps even more so, there are certain very popular street food vendors who I'd trust more than a random newly opened restaurant that happened to have the money for tablecloths and airconditioning) I agree. Sitting here recovering from TD (Traveler's Diarrhea) I reviewed my eating history and point to the most likely cause as enterotoxic E. coli, probably transferred from hand to hamburger bun, but possibly by hand to lettuce on such hamburger (even though I had asked for no lettuce). Enterotoxic TD is the most common form of TD. Even if the body successfully kills the unfavorable E. coli, endo/exotoxins cause gastroenteritis. At this particular well known eatery (please consider that many places sell hamburgers) the toilets have a sink and soap, but use a common towel. Most Thais are very clean, but not all, as I have noticed using the bathrooms at Makro--some leave stalls without washing their hands. The water sprayer system is undoubtedly a vector (actually a foment - an "item" that transmits disease) since the spraying of the perineum area undoubtedly transmits minute amounts of fecal material in spray back to the sprayer. Therefore if a person does not wash thoroughly, and if the person uses a communal towel, then the next person, even who washes thoroughly, becomes a vector of transmission. If that person then handles a hamburger bun, a microscopic amount of enterotoxic E coli (toxic to me, not to that person who is acclimatized to it) can become transferred to the bun, and subsequently to me. The cure to prevent such poisoning then are: enforce proper handwashing, and give proper handwashing tools such as water, soap and non-shared towels, and require disposable polyethylene gloves when the hands must touch food items. In the absence of these controls Thailand will maintain it's high place as a risk for TD. Fancy restaurants have food prepared "out of sight." I have seen street vendors use disposable poly gloves but wonder if "out of sight" equals "no need for poly gloves," perhaps the risk is higher at fancy restaurants than at food stalls where the cook is constantly observed, and the cook knows it. If you watch many food vendors prepare foods, the items are thrown into the wok, then cooked, and transferred hot without hand contact. This method as long as a high enough heat has been achieved (>160f) has a very low risk. Edited February 10, 2011 by jsflynn603 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briggsy Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 There is nothing in the Thai press as the Thai press print verbatim what the police or other government agency or any other body with sufficient status release as a statement. Thus, if the relevant bodies (hospital, coroner, FDA, etc.) choose not to release a statement for any reason (e.g. bad publicity for tourism) then there will be nothing in the local press. And that is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerWan Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) OT but to reply to hygiene and hand washing, Honestly I haven't been sick since I stopped worrying whether my hands are clean or not and instead, made a real effort to stop rubbing my eyes or touching my nose or mouth. Also if someone sneezes or coughs I turn away and blow out while getting upwind, out of their range from any flus spread on sprayed mucous. So yes by all means wash your hands, but the faucet handle is dirty, or the bum gun, or the door knob on the way out.. or the elevator button, escalator rail, whatever you have to touch... Really not so important I think as keeping your fingers from depositing pathogens on the warm, moist environment of your eyes, nose or mouth. Ears, too. Yes , repeated schooling in way of ads, etc., re real hygiene, such as not touching the eyes, nose, mouth or ears would go far. I see so many Thais digging in their noses,. when they do it before they handle my food is what is beyond gross. And stick to freshly cooked , steaming dishes away from home and never leave a drink and go back to it, either. Edited February 10, 2011 by TigerWan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerWan Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Such a beautiful young girl. Heartbreaking. This is Thailand, so do not expect any investigations to track down the source of the poisoned food. .. even if it is deliberate? Did they piss off someone? Maybe some boy made a pass and was refused? Giggled at the wrong Thai? Or complained about an earlier meal as happened to my friend. This projectile vomiting with no other symptoms until possibly dehydration begins a whole host of shutdowns is now a signature symptom for something that is not being addressed. What common poisons cause it would be my next question? Is this a more than common occurance ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caf Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I am so very sure her Mom and Dad and for that matter anybody on God's earth gives a care about what you think ! Congratulations on bashing one of Thai Visa's most polite, informative and useful posters. You left out his senseless, insensitive drivel that prompt me to post " It's kind of amazing how clueless people can be about what is in their food they eat." A young girl on vacation ,eats dinner and dies . Your TV comrade post how clueless she is , how clueless everybody is in their knowledge of food ingredients. Many people do not have the leisurely time to Google, organise , compose, then post their new found drivel on TV to boost their image . What for you is 'polite, informative and useful " in this case was clearly some of the most insensitive, self serving garbage for the norm reading here on TV. Mr. U, Perhaps to be a bit more objective you need to concentrate more on the post content , not which one of your TV buddies is posting it . Agreed. But you aren't the only one he attacks. Sometimes he posts on content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caf Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Such a beautiful young girl. Heartbreaking. This is Thailand, so do not expect any investigations to track down the source of the poisoned food. .. even if it is deliberate? Did they piss off someone? Maybe some boy made a pass and was refused? Giggled at the wrong Thai? Or complained about an earlier meal as happened to my friend. This projectile vomiting with no other symptoms until possibly dehydration begins a whole host of shutdowns is now a signature symptom for something that is not being addressed. What common poisons cause it would be my next question? Is this a more than common occurance ? The topic is about a young girl who has died. Speculating on whether they pissed someone off, giggling at the wrong Thai, or complaining about a meal is very inappropriate on this thread surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atmos Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 The topic is about a young girl who has died. Speculating on whether they pissed someone off, giggling at the wrong Thai, or complaining about a meal is very inappropriate on this thread surely? Thankyou. I posted this thread and have added news reports without thinking of the consequences, ie lack of respect, to put it politely. As an NZer I feel somehow a little 'closer' to the topic than I might otherwise. Seeing NZ in the news here is a rarity, but in fact this event was brought to my attention by my brother, resident in northern China. When my partner asked 'did you know them' I said no, but that I knew several Eliasons from near my home town; as coincidences go, Amanda Eliason (had heart surgery and in recovery) is part of that family from Kaponga, and secondly is employed at my last place of employment in NZ before I moved here - began since I departed but we'll have acquaintances/colleagues in common. Small world. We will no doubt, in time, have a confirmed cause of this death and illness; the speculation here has at times been to me, offensive. These are people's daughters, family, friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caf Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The topic is about a young girl who has died. Speculating on whether they pissed someone off, giggling at the wrong Thai, or complaining about a meal is very inappropriate on this thread surely? Thankyou. I posted this thread and have added news reports without thinking of the consequences, ie lack of respect, to put it politely. As an NZer I feel somehow a little 'closer' to the topic than I might otherwise. Seeing NZ in the news here is a rarity, but in fact this event was brought to my attention by my brother, resident in northern China. When my partner asked 'did you know them' I said no, but that I knew several Eliasons from near my home town; as coincidences go, Amanda Eliason (had heart surgery and in recovery) is part of that family from Kaponga, and secondly is employed at my last place of employment in NZ before I moved here - began since I departed but we'll have acquaintances/colleagues in common. Small world. We will no doubt, in time, have a confirmed cause of this death and illness; the speculation here has at times been to me, offensive. These are people's daughters, family, friends. I hope others will make similar comments. I agree the speculation has sometimes been offensive and I did in fact use the report button. But I fully accept the mods can't be everywhere. It is really up to the individual poster to show some respect caf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webfact Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 In respect for the deceased and the family who might read this topic I am going to close it now. This is not the place for speculations //CLOSED// Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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