Communal Land At Condominiums

[atov]

I live in a condominium in Thailand. In that condo the developer still owns the communal land long after all condo units have been sold, rather than having it transferred to the juristic person of the condo. I wonder whether that is legal or not. The developer claims that the buyers (co-owners) only can claim ownership to his own apartment and the area inside and have the right to use the communal areas that are owned by the developer. The developer says he has no duty to transfer the ownership of the common land to the buyers at juristic person. He says he can sell the communal land to the owners of the condo if they would like to buy the land. The developer says it is not unusual to do this. But is it legal?

Another thing is, the developer has sold the communal parking spaces in the condo to buyers of the condo. Meaning that people who didn't buy a parking space has no right to park in the parking area which after all is a part of the communal area of the condo. There are a limited number of parking spaces so it has an effect on who can park in the condo and not. Is it legal to sell ownership or parking privileges to some co-owners and leaving the other co-owners with no right to park?

Does anyone have experience about the law of condominium and how developers establish condominiums?

[JohnC]

Have a look at this:

Condo Act.pdf

[oracle]

I'm sorry but you are not clear, you say you live in a condominium in Thailand, do you mean you rent it or you bought it? And if you bought or rent it, what are the contracts you signed?

[atov]

I'm sorry but you are not clear, you say you live in a condominium in Thailand, do you mean you rent it or you bought it? And if you bought or rent it, what are the contracts you signed?

I own a condo-unit in the condominium I am referring to. The contract that I signed is with the developer's company that owns the communal land area.

[oracle]

I'm sorry but you are not clear, you say you live in a condominium in Thailand, do you mean you rent it or you bought it? And if you bought or rent it, what are the contracts you signed?

I own a condo-unit in the condominium I am referring to. The contract that I signed is with the developer's company that owns the communal land area.

I'm sorry but it is still not clear. Do you have a condo unit title deed issued by the land department in your name? Did the land office register your name on this document? Where or how did the ownership transfer took place?

[trogers]

Sounds like a development inside Sukhumvit Soi 50...lol

[atov]

I'm sorry but you are not clear, you say you live in a condominium in Thailand, do you mean you rent it or you bought it? And if you bought or rent it, what are the contracts you signed?

I own a condo-unit in the condominium I am referring to. The contract that I signed is with the developer's company that owns the communal land area.

I'm sorry but it is still not clear. Do you have a condo unit title deed issued by the land department in your name? Did the land office register your name on this document? Where or how did the ownership transfer took place?

Yes, I have a title deed for my condo unit issued by the land department. All co-owners have. I have mine in a company name, but in this condo, like other condos 49% of the owners hold a foreign ownership. So that part seems to be done correctly.

[oracle]

I'm sorry but you are not clear, you say you live in a condominium in Thailand, do you mean you rent it or you bought it? And if you bought or rent it, what are the contracts you signed?

I own a condo-unit in the condominium I am referring to. The contract that I signed is with the developer's company that owns the communal land area.

I'm sorry but it is still not clear. Do you have a condo unit title deed issued by the land department in your name? Did the land office register your name on this document? Where or how did the ownership transfer took place?

Yes, I have a title deed for my condo unit issued by the land department. All co-owners have. I have mine in a company name, but in this condo, like other condos 49% of the owners hold a foreign ownership. So that part seems to be done correctly.

I was guessing you bought a leasehold apartment, or an unit in an apartment building not registered under the condo act. In such condos the unit 'owners' not automatically own the land, and often not even the building, but a lease over part of the building.

If your condo is registered under the condo act you already own the land the condo is built on, or the deeds would not be issued.

Under the condo act a condominium means the building where persons are able to hold ownership separately according to the section whereby each section consist of personal ownership in the property and joint ownership in common property.

Common property means part of the condominium which is not the apartment, land where the condominium is situated and land or other property provided for use or for joint benefits of joint-owners.

Maybe the land you are referring to is not part of the condo complex.

[trogers]

Maybe the land you are referring to is not part of the condo complex.

A common mistake in assuming all land are part of the condo, esp in mixed development which are part residential and part commercial.

[atov]

Thank's for all info. I will give a little more info though just to clarify a bit. The condo I am referring to is registered under the condominium act and all owners have received title deeds for his condo unit. It is not an apartment building with leasehold contracts. The condo is located on a small land piece with a wall around. Inside the wall is the condo building including a small tropical garden with a terrace and a pool. There is a small lobby area and underground parking. All these things I see as common area along with hallways/ corridors, stair cases, elevators etc. The committee in this condo has found out that the developer holds ownership of the land the condo is built on in a company where he also keeps his other properties. He says he doesn't need to transfer the land to the juristic person company and he says it is "not unusual" to do so. But sounds like it's not usual either.

What if the developer gets into money problems and some other person or company takes over all his properties including the common land of our condo, what's going to happen with our usage of it ? Could the new owner claim that he owns the land our condo is built on and force us to buy it or stop us from using the common areas. Or even worse, could he build a house in the communal garden?

The developer also parks 4-5 of his company cars in the underground parking area. He claims he owns 5 units in the building. They are not owned by the developer, but the developer has taken those units in return for newer condo units in a newer project but without registering the 5 units in his company's name (still in old owner's name).

The developer has also sold privileged rights to use parking spaces to some owners and let them put up an ownership sign to that spot. That locks out other co-owners who hasn't paid the price for a parking space. But isn't this parking supposed to be free parking for all co-owners? There's no where else to park unless you want to park in the soi outside the building.

Is this normal practice and is it legal ? Thank's for your insight on this...

[oracle]

When you buy a condo you should know what you are buying. If the developer presented it from the start as common property you may have a case, based on consumer protection laws, otherwise I would say it is just another piece of land and the developer can sell parking space through serviude rights. The good thing is no one would buy it with these rights on it.

I recently saw that in front of a sea view condo a similar condo was built by the same developer blocking the sea view of the first condo. Can you do anything about it? No, and these things happen in Thailand as in other places around the world.

You control as joint owners the common areas, maybe you can do something about the developer parking 5 cars in the car parking in the GM and amending the rules and regulations.

If he presented the land from the start a common property belonging to the condo, go to a lawyer.

[trogers]

The Land Dept for your district should have a copy of your development drawings that layout the common areas and the individual condo units. These drawings are the ones that were submitted to gain registration as a condominium and is the basis the Land Dept issued out the titles for the individual condo units. To date, there is no permission to issue out ownership titles for car park lots, thus all parking spaces are common property. If anyone wants to claim specific rights to a lot, ask him to show his ownership title deed to it.

Your Juristic Manager has to make a formal application to the Land Dept for this info.

[atov]

The Land Dept for your district should have a copy of your development drawings that layout the common areas and the individual condo units. These drawings are the ones that were submitted to gain registration as a condominium and is the basis the Land Dept issued out the titles for the individual condo units. To date, there is no permission to issue out ownership titles for car park lots, thus all parking spaces are common property. If anyone wants to claim specific rights to a lot, ask him to show his ownership title deed to it.

Your Juristic Manager has to make a formal application to the Land Dept for this info.

Thanks's a lot for all answers! I will suggest this to the committee.

I still wonder if it is legal for the developer to own the common area (the land the condo is built on) instead of transferring it into the juristic person company from the beginning. Even nobody would be interested in buying land that has a right to be used by the condo owners, it could cause problems in the future if the developer goes bankrupt I guess... When a developer buys land and constructs a condo, he gets paid for making homes with facilities. That's what he is paid for isn't it? So why should he own land after everything is being paid for?

The developer of my condo says in a letter to my condo committee:

The developer of a condominium project is and will be the owner of the land the condominium has been built and he (the company) as well is the owner of the so called common area, the buyers (of a condominium) own the "box" they have bought but may have rights to use the common area as stipulated in the sales and purchase contract (between developer and buyer) and/or other agreements as bylaws if there are any. The developer has no duty to transfer the ownership over common land to the buyers of condominiums however he can sell the common area to them if he (the developer) wishes to do so and the condominium owners can accept such a sale.

It sounds as if you only own your condo box and with a right to use common areas that is not really belonging to the owners. I thought the whole idea with the juristic person of a condominium is to own common areas, manage the usage of it, maintenance of it and meetings and voting rights. Can this really be normal practice ?

Edited February 9, 2011 by atov

[pkrv]

The Land Dept for your district should have a copy of your development drawings that layout the common areas and the individual condo units. These drawings are the ones that were submitted to gain registration as a condominium and is the basis the Land Dept issued out the titles for the individual condo units. To date, there is no permission to issue out ownership titles for car park lots, thus all parking spaces are common property. If anyone wants to claim specific rights to a lot, ask him to show his ownership title deed to it.

Your Juristic Manager has to make a formal application to the Land Dept for this info.

Hi Trojers an odd and worring thread. I can say that carparking spaces can be sold associated with the units and are an integral part of the Chanotte ti din (land ownership document).

My own condominium ownership document shows the unit in full and there is a separate rectangle showing my own car parking space - i.e. I own this physical space.

If the developer is selling car parking spaces to Farangs - I would guess they must obey the same rules - funds in from overseas and the issuing of a (separate) Chanotte ti din.

I recommend the OP approches the land office via a lawer to work out what is actually happeneing.

I hope theOP gets back to us.

Edited February 10, 2011 by pkrv

[thaiwanderer]

The JP / all condo unit owners should own all the communal land, as another has said before you / the management commitee need to clarify with the Land Office.

However what you may think is communal land and what actually is may be 2 entirely different things (non structural walls aren't indicative).

I see the parking is underground - if directly under the area covered by the units it would be interesting to see how the developer can claim this is separate from the communal land.

[pkrv]

Maybe the land you are referring to is not part of the condo complex.

A common mistake in assuming all land are part of the condo, esp in mixed development which are part residential and part commercial.

Hi Trojers - Just back to the UK from Bangkok so a bit phased.

Yes on this trip I noted that there are quite a number of mixed developments going up in Chit Lom - Hotel/Office/Condominium combinations. Have you any experience as to what happens for the condominium owner in these circumstance?

[trogers]

Maybe the land you are referring to is not part of the condo complex.

A common mistake in assuming all land are part of the condo, esp in mixed development which are part residential and part commercial.

Hi Trojers - Just back to the UK from Bangkok so a bit phased.

Yes on this trip I noted that there are quite a number of mixed developments going up in Chit Lom - Hotel/Office/Condominium combinations. Have you any experience as to what happens for the condominium owner in these circumstance?

Mixed developments have been built since the late 80s. Development law with regards to communal land, management rights and common fees are still in its infancy, even to date. There has been quite a few projects with outstanding disputes between the developer and the juristic body of the condo, eg. President Park (Sukhumvit), Diamond (Pratunam). We have to wait for another decade or so to know the final outcome of litigation in such projects.

I bought my first condo unit in 1994 and have avoided mixed developments ever since. Thus, I have no first hand experience with their problems.