Formula 1 In 2011

[F1fanatic]

IIRC certain posters last season, who were new and are also missing this season, soured things a bit. Maybe that is part of the reason.

Steve. If things start to get personal and posters do not respect others opinions then block them or ignore and I have to admit that my feelings towards one particular German driver is well known and documented but I do try very hard in response to our regular contributor who is a somewhat fanactical fan of his :jap: not to get too heated about him and if I have ever caused distress then I apologise unreservedly to one and all and especially to our one lady friend.

David.

Don't worry Wackysleet, I have always enjoyed our differences of opinion and certainly don't take them personally .

Like you, I enjoy 'arguing' these things - as long as posters don't resort to personal insults - which as far as I can remember, has never happened on this site.

I do apologise though if sometimes I've seemed to get a bit 'heated'. I might be 'heated' but always respectful of other genuine F1 fans opinions, even if I think they're completely wrong !

[rixalex]

IIRC certain posters last season, who were new and are also missing this season, soured things a bit. Maybe that is part of the reason.

Steve. If things start to get personal and posters do not respect others opinions then block them or ignore and I have to admit that my feelings towards one particular German driver is well known and documented but I do try very hard in response to our regular contributor who is a somewhat fanactical fan of his :jap: not to get too heated about him and if I have ever caused distress then I apologise unreservedly to one and all and especially to our one lady friend.

David.

Speaking from a purely personal point of view, i feel this season the intercourse has been a little more good natured than the one prior.

My feeling is, posters should have the attitude that we all have a right to an opinion, nobody's opinion is more worthy than another's, and nobody is neutral - we are all biased in one way or another, so keep in mind when you accuse someone else of only thinking that way because of bias, that your opinions too have been affected by your own personal likes and dislikes.

(P.S. not directed at David or Mosha.)

[Mosha]

Last year a couple appeared who seemed to feel they knew more about the sport than we mere mortals. I've never had a problem with who I call the regulars. The others almost spoiled the tone, and if you remember, we did discuss it over a beer in Ranong Dave.

[rixalex]

IIRC certain posters last season, who were new and are also missing this season, soured things a bit. Maybe that is part of the reason.

Steve. If things start to get personal and posters do not respect others opinions then block them or ignore and I have to admit that my feelings towards one particular German driver is well known and documented but I do try very hard in response to our regular contributor who is a somewhat fanactical fan of his :jap: not to get too heated about him and if I have ever caused distress then I apologise unreservedly to one and all and especially to our one lady friend.

David.

Don't worry Wackysleet, I have always enjoyed our differences of opinion and certainly don't take them personally .

Like you, I enjoy 'arguing' these things - as long as posters don't resort to personal insults - which as far as I can remember, has never happened on this site.

I do apologise though if sometimes I've seemed to get a bit 'heated'. I might be 'heated' but always respectful of other genuine F1 fans opinions, even if I think they're completely wrong !

I don't think any apology is necessary from you F1. You have always remained polite and respectful. Same can not be said for some of those who have disagreed with you in seasons past. Mention no names... David knows who I mean.

[F1fanatic]

IIRC certain posters last season, who were new and are also missing this season, soured things a bit. Maybe that is part of the reason.

Steve. If things start to get personal and posters do not respect others opinions then block them or ignore and I have to admit that my feelings towards one particular German driver is well known and documented but I do try very hard in response to our regular contributor who is a somewhat fanactical fan of his :jap: not to get too heated about him and if I have ever caused distress then I apologise unreservedly to one and all and especially to our one lady friend.

David.

Don't worry Wackysleet, I have always enjoyed our differences of opinion and certainly don't take them personally .

Like you, I enjoy 'arguing' these things - as long as posters don't resort to personal insults - which as far as I can remember, has never happened on this site.

I do apologise though if sometimes I've seemed to get a bit 'heated'. I might be 'heated' but always respectful of other genuine F1 fans opinions, even if I think they're completely wrong !

I don't think any apology is necessary from you F1. You have always remained polite and respectful. Same can not be said for some of those who have disagreed with you in seasons past. Mention no names... David knows who I mean.

Thank god for that - I was worried that I might be one of the 'newbies' that had soured discussions here .

SO...... let's get back to our opinions on F1! It looks as if Vettel is going to walk away with the WDC this year, which is odd in a few ways for me.

IMO (), although Red Bull had (have?) a far better qualifying car, Mclaren have at least an equally good car in the race. Ferrari are close too.

It seems to me that Mclaren should be getting better results in the races (yes, I know JB won the last race - but only on the last lap), and for discussable reasons Vettel has been 'allowed' to 'walk away' with the results so far.

Whilst I accept that Vettel is a good driver - he shouldn't be as far ahead as he is (IMO ).

[wackysleet]

Last year a couple appeared who seemed to feel they knew more about the sport than we mere mortals. I've never had a problem with who I call the regulars. The others almost spoiled the tone, and if you remember, we did discuss it over a beer in Ranong Dave.

I remember the night very well Steve and I bet Brian does as well after his little escapade with her indoors :lol:

[rixalex]

Thank god for that - I was worried that I might be one of the 'newbies' that had soured discussions here .

SO...... let's get back to our opinions on F1! It looks as if Vettel is going to walk away with the WDC this year, which is odd in a few ways for me.

IMO (), although Red Bull had (have?) a far better qualifying car, Mclaren have at least an equally good car in the race. Ferrari are close too.

It seems to me that Mclaren should be getting better results in the races (yes, I know JB won the last race - but only on the last lap), and for discussable reasons Vettel has been 'allowed' to 'walk away' with the results so far.

Whilst I accept that Vettel is a good driver - he shouldn't be as far ahead as he is (IMO ).

I think that Vettel has one of the best cars and his performances have been most consistent of all drivers, and that is why he sits at the top of the heap right now. From an interest point of view, it would be good if he had a few DNFs in the next few races to bring some other drivers into contention, otherwise this season will be wrapped up very soon.

[rixalex]

should Jenson finish higher up the table I think he would have trouble accepting that.

Quite right too. No driver should be happy to finish second to their team mate.

Question for you though wacky. I know you think Jenson is a better driver than he is given credit for, and that you rate him quite highly, but do you think at the end of the season, his points tally will be higher than Lewis's? Your prediction?

[F1fanatic]

Thank god for that - I was worried that I might be one of the 'newbies' that had soured discussions here .

SO...... let's get back to our opinions on F1! It looks as if Vettel is going to walk away with the WDC this year, which is odd in a few ways for me.

IMO (), although Red Bull had (have?) a far better qualifying car, Mclaren have at least an equally good car in the race. Ferrari are close too.

It seems to me that Mclaren should be getting better results in the races (yes, I know JB won the last race - but only on the last lap), and for discussable reasons Vettel has been 'allowed' to 'walk away' with the results so far.

Whilst I accept that Vettel is a good driver - he shouldn't be as far ahead as he is (IMO ).

I think that Vettel has one of the best cars and his performances have been most consistent of all drivers, and that is why he sits at the top of the heap right now. From an interest point of view, it would be good if he had a few DNFs in the next few races to bring some other drivers into contention, otherwise this season will be wrapped up very soon.

I agree that he has one of the best 'race' cars and think his consistency is far easier when nobody is actually giving him a hard time....

It doesn't need a few DNF's - in fact I think that would make any other WDC winner less deserving. It needs someone (with an equally fast car in the race), to actually take his quali advantage (only advantage) away from him. If they can start in the first few rows, with DRS they have no excuse for not passing him.

Funnily enough, I'm beginning to dislike DRS 'cos it makes overtaking TOO easy.

[wackysleet]

Don't worry Wackysleet, I have always enjoyed our differences of opinion and certainly don't take them personally .

Like you, I enjoy 'arguing' these things - as long as posters don't resort to personal insults - which as far as I can remember, has never happened on this site.

I do apologise though if sometimes I've seemed to get a bit 'heated'. I might be 'heated' but always respectful of other genuine F1 fans opinions, even if I think they're completely wrong !

I don't think any apology is necessary from you F1. You have always remained polite and respectful. Same can not be said for some of those who have disagreed with you in seasons past. Mention no names... David knows who I mean.

Thank god for that - I was worried that I might be one of the 'newbies' that had soured discussions here .

SO...... let's get back to our opinions on F1! It looks as if Vettel is going to walk away with the WDC this year, which is odd in a few ways for me.

IMO (), although Red Bull had (have?) a far better qualifying car, Mclaren have at least an equally good car in the race. Ferrari are close too.

It seems to me that Mclaren should be getting better results in the races (yes, I know JB won the last race - but only on the last lap), and for discussable reasons Vettel has been 'allowed' to 'walk away' with the results so far.

Whilst I accept that Vettel is a good driver - he shouldn't be as far ahead as he is (IMO ).

Well, I have been banging on about just how good Sebastian is since he first came on the scene driving for Torro Rosso and is very good in the wet.

I know a lot of people think he won last years WDC because he had the fastest car but surely no faster than Marks who unfortunately fell away at the end and we have, what 5 ex WDCs in the field who we could argue had at the time the best car in the field with possibly two exceptions but Fernando did very well to get into the reckoning after such a bad start.

[rixalex]

Thank god for that - I was worried that I might be one of the 'newbies' that had soured discussions here .

SO...... let's get back to our opinions on F1! It looks as if Vettel is going to walk away with the WDC this year, which is odd in a few ways for me.

IMO (), although Red Bull had (have?) a far better qualifying car, Mclaren have at least an equally good car in the race. Ferrari are close too.

It seems to me that Mclaren should be getting better results in the races (yes, I know JB won the last race - but only on the last lap), and for discussable reasons Vettel has been 'allowed' to 'walk away' with the results so far.

Whilst I accept that Vettel is a good driver - he shouldn't be as far ahead as he is (IMO ).

I think that Vettel has one of the best cars and his performances have been most consistent of all drivers, and that is why he sits at the top of the heap right now. From an interest point of view, it would be good if he had a few DNFs in the next few races to bring some other drivers into contention, otherwise this season will be wrapped up very soon.

I agree that he has one of the best 'race' cars and think his consistency is far easier when nobody is actually giving him a hard time....

It doesn't need a few DNF's - in fact I think that would make any other WDC winner less deserving. It needs someone (with an equally fast car in the race), to actually take his quali advantage (only advantage) away from him. If they can start in the first few rows, with DRS they have no excuse for not passing him.

Funnily enough, I'm beginning to dislike DRS 'cos it makes overtaking TOO easy.

I wasn't particularly talking about DNFs from mechanical failure, if that is what you thought?

If, and it is just an "if", Vettel makes a few more driver errors, like he did in Canada, but with more severe consequences, then the fight will tighten up at the top, and any driver who benefits from that will not be in any way less deserving.

And that is what i think needs to happen to bring other drivers into the mix. Vettel can afford now to be finishing 2nd, 3rd or even 4th, and providing it is not just one driver winning, he'll still be in quite a comfortable position come the end of the season

[F1fanatic]

Don't worry Wackysleet, I have always enjoyed our differences of opinion and certainly don't take them personally .

Like you, I enjoy 'arguing' these things - as long as posters don't resort to personal insults - which as far as I can remember, has never happened on this site.

I do apologise though if sometimes I've seemed to get a bit 'heated'. I might be 'heated' but always respectful of other genuine F1 fans opinions, even if I think they're completely wrong !

I don't think any apology is necessary from you F1. You have always remained polite and respectful. Same can not be said for some of those who have disagreed with you in seasons past. Mention no names... David knows who I mean.

Thank god for that - I was worried that I might be one of the 'newbies' that had soured discussions here .

SO...... let's get back to our opinions on F1! It looks as if Vettel is going to walk away with the WDC this year, which is odd in a few ways for me.

IMO (), although Red Bull had (have?) a far better qualifying car, Mclaren have at least an equally good car in the race. Ferrari are close too.

It seems to me that Mclaren should be getting better results in the races (yes, I know JB won the last race - but only on the last lap), and for discussable reasons Vettel has been 'allowed' to 'walk away' with the results so far.

Whilst I accept that Vettel is a good driver - he shouldn't be as far ahead as he is (IMO ).

Well, I have been banging on about just how good Sebastian is since he first came on the scene driving for Torro Rosso and is very good in the wet.

I know a lot of people think he won last years WDC because he had the fastest car but surely no faster than Marks who unfortunately fell away at the end and we have, what 5 ex WDCs in the field who we could argue had at the time the best car in the field with possibly two exceptions but Fernando did very well to get into the reckoning after such a bad start.

I agree that SV is a good driver, but last season is not a good reason to believe that he is 'the best'.

a) Poor old MW OBVIOUSLY didn't get a 'fair suck at the lolly'

Other drivers who had an equally good car at the latter end of the season, failed to deliver the results....

This season, for whatever reason MW is not driving as well as Vettel.

Meanwhile, Mclaren are failing to take the race to Vettel, even though they have (at least) an equally good 'race' car.

[F1fanatic]

Thank god for that - I was worried that I might be one of the 'newbies' that had soured discussions here .

SO...... let's get back to our opinions on F1! It looks as if Vettel is going to walk away with the WDC this year, which is odd in a few ways for me.

IMO (), although Red Bull had (have?) a far better qualifying car, Mclaren have at least an equally good car in the race. Ferrari are close too.

It seems to me that Mclaren should be getting better results in the races (yes, I know JB won the last race - but only on the last lap), and for discussable reasons Vettel has been 'allowed' to 'walk away' with the results so far.

Whilst I accept that Vettel is a good driver - he shouldn't be as far ahead as he is (IMO ).

I think that Vettel has one of the best cars and his performances have been most consistent of all drivers, and that is why he sits at the top of the heap right now. From an interest point of view, it would be good if he had a few DNFs in the next few races to bring some other drivers into contention, otherwise this season will be wrapped up very soon.

I agree that he has one of the best 'race' cars and think his consistency is far easier when nobody is actually giving him a hard time....

It doesn't need a few DNF's - in fact I think that would make any other WDC winner less deserving. It needs someone (with an equally fast car in the race), to actually take his quali advantage (only advantage) away from him. If they can start in the first few rows, with DRS they have no excuse for not passing him.

Funnily enough, I'm beginning to dislike DRS 'cos it makes overtaking TOO easy.

I wasn't particularly talking about DNFs from mechanical failure, if that is what you thought?

If, and it is just an "if", Vettel makes a few more driver errors, like he did in Canada, but with more severe consequences, then the fight will tighten up at the top, and any driver who benefits from that will not be in any way less deserving.

And that is what i think needs to happen to bring other drivers into the mix. Vettel can afford now to be finishing 2nd, 3rd or even 4th, and providing it is not just one driver winning, he'll still be in quite a comfortable position come the end of the season

Yes, sorry - I thought you meant mechanical DNF's. If he screws up his own race and crashes, that's his problem.

[wackysleet]

should Jenson finish higher up the table I think he would have trouble accepting that.

Quite right too. No driver should be happy to finish second to their team mate.

Question for you though wacky. I know you think Jenson is a better driver than he is given credit for, and that you rate him quite highly, but do you think at the end of the season, his points tally will be higher than Lewis's? Your prediction?

Well from the outset I have never said that Jenson is a better driver although that is not what your implying I said, so in truth, I think it rests entirely in Lewis's own hands, for that, read head, if he stops bitching and gets on with what he does best then yes, I believe he will outscore Jenson but, and here is the rub, Jenson is quite consistant and is very good at getting his car home and at the end of the day that counts.

Lewis's just needs to stop thinking the world is on his case, forget the past and get on with his racing but it remains to be seen if he can, irrespective of what he says I believe his view that he has/was/is being victimised could be his downfall.

[wackysleet]

I agree that SV is a good driver, but last season is not a good reason to believe that he is 'the best'.

a) Poor old MW OBVIOUSLY didn't get a 'fair suck at the lolly'

Other drivers who had an equally good car at the latter end of the season, failed to deliver the results....

This season, for whatever reason MW is not driving as well as Vettel.

Meanwhile, Mclaren are failing to take the race to Vettel, even though they have (at least) an equally good 'race' car.

Oh I don't believe he is the best driver YET but he accrued a fair number of points at the begining of last season when Maclaren and Ferrari were also rans and from that point on it is hard to overtake the points differential, look at Jensons early start to his year when he won the WDC other teams improved dramatically but too late and the same last season as I said with Fernando.

I think that as far as racing is concerned the tracks play a very significant part in the results, get on pole and you have a very good chance of the podium and although with the introduction of DRS to assist it is not so effective at all the tracks, Monaco obviously springs to mind.

Perhaps Maclaren will come good and win more races when we get onto the different tracks, we have had some that make passing difficult.

Edited June 22, 2011 by wackysleet

[Mosha]

Too many changes this year with the regs, They should just stick with the crappier tyres. The DRS has given us overtaking for the sake of it.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Mosha

[rixalex]

Quite right too. No driver should be happy to finish second to their team mate.

Question for you though wacky. I know you think Jenson is a better driver than he is given credit for, and that you rate him quite highly, but do you think at the end of the season, his points tally will be higher than Lewis's? Your prediction?

Well from the outset I have never said that Jenson is a better driver although that is not what your implying I said, so in truth, I think it rests entirely in Lewis's own hands, for that, read head, if he stops bitching and gets on with what he does best then yes, I believe he will outscore Jenson but, and here is the rub, Jenson is quite consistant and is very good at getting his car home and at the end of the day that counts.

Lewis's just needs to stop thinking the world is on his case, forget the past and get on with his racing but it remains to be seen if he can, irrespective of what he says I believe his view that he has/was/is being victimised could be his downfall.

Totally agree.

[rixalex]

Too many changes this year with the regs, They should just stick with the crappier tyres. The DRS has given us overtaking for the sake of it.

It has struck me as funny how this year the tyres have been hailed as having been so good for the sport, and of course they have, but not because the tyres have been good - as one might assume would lead to good racing - but because they have been so awful. Perhaps next season they should make the teams use road tyres from Honda Jazz's.

[Mosha]

So bad, they're good.

[wackysleet]

Too many changes this year with the regs, They should just stick with the crappier tyres. The DRS has given us overtaking for the sake of it.

It has struck me as funny how this year the tyres have been hailed as having been so good for the sport, and of course they have, but not because the tyres have been good - as one might assume would lead to good racing - but because they have been so awful. Perhaps next season they should make the teams use road tyres from Honda Jazz's.

Actually if we believe the reports then these tyres are exactly what the FIA and FOTA asked for to bring in more pit stops so that in effect strategy would likely be tantamount to the car winning thus breaking the usual procession and bringing back the excitement but not being too sure about that they actually adopted the belt and two braces doctrine with the return of Kers and DRS, shame on them.

[PattayaParent]

^Maybe it could be the old established Ferrari bias as well but we'll have to wait until Ferrari get a competitive car again to find out if they can get away with some overtaking manouevres.

On a technical note it could also be that everyone is wary of getting their new big front wing damaged and so are more cautious.

[Mosha]

Now that 25 race per annum has been suggested, and as no one can reasonably expect a 50 week season that leaves (roughly) 3 races per month. So one has to wonder is this doable?

[wackysleet]

Now that 25 race per annum has been suggested, and as no one can reasonably expect a 50 week season that leaves (roughly) 3 races per month. So one has to wonder is this doable?

It appears that after an agreement between all parties that the 1.6 litre V4s are a non starter and it's now going to be 1.6 litre V6s which sounds like less of a disaster than V4s, due for 2014 race season but as we know, it could very well be all change again.

Seems to me that the reason for supposedly getting rid of V8s is a load of old -------- because surely the extra fuel saved by running smaller capacity engines could very well be negated by running all the extra proposed races, catch as catch can me thinks. Appears a possible case of responding to some criticism over the green credentials of the sport but increasing the number of races thus the participating tracks {The Paul Ricard circuit looks like it will make a return} needed to accomodate the increased season, what a wonderful big windfall that could be for Bernie, success out of a possible disaster.

Edited June 24, 2011 by wackysleet

[F1fanatic]

Now that 25 race per annum has been suggested, and as no one can reasonably expect a 50 week season that leaves (roughly) 3 races per month. So one has to wonder is this doable?

It appears that after an agreement between all parties that the 1.6 litre V4s are a non starter and it's now going to be 1.6 litre V6s which sounds like less of a disaster than V4s, due for 2014 race season but as we know, it could very well be all change again.

Seems to me that the reason for supposedly getting rid of V8s is a load of old -------- because surely the extra fuel saved by running smaller capacity engines could very well be negated by running all the extra proposed races, catch as catch can me thinks. Appears a possible case of responding to some criticism over the green credentials of the sport but increasing the number of races thus the participating tracks {The Paul Ricard circuit looks like it will make a return} needed to accomodate the increased season, what a wonderful big windfall that could be for Bernie, success out of a possible disaster.

Quite. Fans of F1 aren't riveted by the latest 'green' technology in the sport . F1 and 'green' are pretty much polar opposites!

I'm sure that most of us try v hard to be 'green' in our own personal lives, but to enforce that on F1 is ridiculous.

Meanwhile, as you say, Bernie is laughing all the way to the bank.... even if the fans don't find it at all funny....

[b19bry]

Has anyone noticed how this season we are missing a lot of the posters from last year, I wonder why, perhaps someone could throw some light on the reason/s.

I do hope people are not put off by the occassional bickerings and disagreements although these are still enacted in a fairly lighthearted way, unlike the last couple of seasons.

I will PM bigbry and ask him to get his arse back on here and a few others too or this forum could die a slow death, we need more banter and debate.

But if anyone disagrees I'm sure we could debate that too.

Hi David, Thanks for your thoughts I deduce I'd be one of the less popular posters here !

I'm a little busier with work this year and don't have so much time to post here

The racing this year is undoubtedly more exciting so far.....apart from the fact that Vettel probably has things sewn up for the championship, Button's performance in Canada was a real high.

I think our views on LH are fairly similar and me coming on here trying to defend Alonso was never going to win me any friends.

LH's performances & attitude from the last couple of races speaks more than anything I could have posted.

I think DRS has definitely improved the spectacle, the lack of overtaking has been a problem in F1 for too long. More overtaking has to be better than none, you probably remember as I do when the first into the last Lesmo at Monza would be the kiss of death !

Let's hope the Mclaren's Ferrari and even Renault can make more of a fight gong into the remaining races.

I went to Sepang earlier this year and am looking forward to going to the Singapore race in September.

[b19bry]

Quite. Fans of F1 aren't riveted by the latest 'green' technology in the sport . F1 and 'green' are pretty much polar opposites!

I'm sure that most of us try v hard to be 'green' in our own personal lives, but to enforce that on F1 is ridiculous.

Couldn't agree more ! Bring back 12 cylinders

Edited June 24, 2011 by b19bry

[Mosha]

Hi Bry, welcome back. Trouble is with DRS we now have 2 evenly matched cars switching places every other lap. I'd much prefer a making a passing manoeuvre stick race.

[wackysleet]

Has anyone noticed how this season we are missing a lot of the posters from last year, I wonder why, perhaps someone could throw some light on the reason/s.

I do hope people are not put off by the occassional bickerings and disagreements although these are still enacted in a fairly lighthearted way, unlike the last couple of seasons.

I will PM bigbry and ask him to get his arse back on here and a few others too or this forum could die a slow death, we need more banter and debate.

But if anyone disagrees I'm sure we could debate that too.

Hi David, Thanks for your thoughts I deduce I'd be one of the less popular posters here !

I'm a little busier with work this year and don't have so much time to post here

The racing this year is undoubtedly more exciting so far.....apart from the fact that Vettel probably has things sewn up for the championship, Button's performance in Canada was a real high.

I think our views on LH are fairly similar and me coming on here trying to defend Alonso was never going to win me any friends.

LH's performances & attitude from the last couple of races speaks more than anything I could have posted.

I think DRS has definitely improved the spectacle, the lack of overtaking has been a problem in F1 for too long. More overtaking has to be better than none, you probably remember as I do when the first into the last Lesmo at Monza would be the kiss of death !

Let's hope the Mclaren's Ferrari and even Renault can make more of a fight gong into the remaining races.

I went to Sepang earlier this year and am looking forward to going to the Singapore race in September.

Welcome back mate, the more the merrier, although there is one face I would rather not return, but then i'm not likely to win the Lottery either.

I was at Monaco for the race and stayed for the 24 hrs race, really good and such an atmosphere, not saying it is everyones cup of tea though.

I was thinking of going to the Singapore race myself if i'm back in Asia then, perhaps you may fancy meeting up, tickets for the practise and the actual race are not a problem, I can get a couple of passes for the pits if your interested, just let me know.

[Mosha]

Jensen laughs of Ferrari rumour according to msn uk.

[wackysleet]

Jensen laughs of Ferrari rumour according to msn uk.

I would hate to see Jenson move to Ferrari as he is doing well at Maclarens especially as this is just the start of his second season there and if he had not had the coming together last season with Sebastian and the two mechanical DNFs then he would have finished higher up the table.

It does seem for most drivers to be the pinnacle of their careers if they get the Ferrari seat and I have never heard anyone saying that they wouldn't drive for them unless of course they are in a far superior car than the prancing horse or as this year goes, the dead donkey.