Formula 1 In 2011

F1fanatic · June 18, 2011

Wackysleet,

OK.... I'm sure you're right that Schumi had no place in F1 .

Edited June 18, 2011 by F1fanatic

F1fanatic · June 18, 2011

whereas Lewis called them 'monkeys', NOT a good way to make friends!

Stupid comment, made in jest, inappropriate, and apologised for. Trotted out now on every Lewis discussion.

When Schumi joined Ferrari, the car was crap and it took a few years before he gained another WDC. Even so, he didn't complain about the team etc. and just got on with the job, consistently getting close to the WDC in an inferior car.

Matter of opinion, but my feeling is the car was average, not crap, and with the team of engineers and experts he brought with him, rapidly became a good and then a fantastic car. Credit to him for that, by the way.

I accept this, but have a problem when the driver is convinced its all down to their superior driving when the car improves to the top level....

A racing driver who thinks he is the best and who has an ego. It's hardly a revelation now, is it?

Yes, the "monkeys" comment was made in jest - even though it didn't sound like it at the time and he's made similar comments about back-markers since - although admittedly he's avoided the tern "monkeys".

I agree that the Ferrari when Schumi first joined the team was average - i.e. crap to anyone who has hopes of winning a WDC.

wackysleet · June 18, 2011

Wackysleet,

OK.... I'm sure you're right that Schumi had no place in F1 .

Look again at what I wrote, there is a subtle difference between the words had and has, I always thought he was a great racer in his early years and deserved his place at the top but it was his later actions that I contest and believe he should have been banned.

A lot of people I would guess view his coming together with Damian, unfortunate and may have given him the benefit of the doubt but the circumstances of their relevant positions in the championship stakes will make most peoples views pretty certain that he drove into him deliberately but to do the same thing a second time defies belief and yet you call him intelligent, oh well perhaps he was having an off day.

After Jacks incident he should have been kicked out and as for your comment that after the Monaco fiasco he had to start from the back of the grid big deal, he who sows soeth shall he will reap, or something like that, my statement that he did/does what he likes is proven yet again over his one time team mate.

Enough said about Michael but you continue to idolise the man but for me he is a flawed character.

Mosha · June 18, 2011

Anyone remember a Top Gear episode, where Clarkson was trying to find out what makes a F1 driver different from Joe average? He used a 12 rule to measure a drivers reaction time. It happened to be Schumi. He compared Schumi's reaction to his own. The test being when the ruler was released how quick it was caught between finger and thumb. Clarkson at the end of the programme came to the conclusion, the top drivers would run over their Grannie if mean't winning the race, i.e. no conscience or feelings of guilt. Incidentally they also studied rally drivers. They filmed someone's feet has he was driving, that was like watching a tap dancer.

rixalex · June 19, 2011

Yes, the "monkeys" comment was made in jest - even though it didn't sound like it at the time and he's made similar comments about back-markers since - although admittedly he's avoided the tern "monkeys".

Similar comments? What, has he called them chimpanzees? Baboons? What is it he has said that you feel is similar?

I agree that the Ferrari when Schumi first joined the team was average - i.e. crap to anyone who has hopes of winning a WDC.

Your definition of crap then seems to be more like, not the best car on the grid. It differs from mine.

As for Schumi having no place in F1, he did in my opinion up until he took out Damon to win the Championship. He should at the very least have been deducted points for that season. There is no rightful way the record books should show him being a 7 times World Champ. That is just plain wrong. In addition to the points deduction, a ban of some sort should have been imposed. Might have given him pause for thought, and put an end to his "tricks".

wackysleet · June 19, 2011

Anyone remember a Top Gear episode, where Clarkson was trying to find out what makes a F1 driver different from Joe average? He used a 12 rule to measure a drivers reaction time. It happened to be Schumi. He compared Schumi's reaction to his own. The test being when the ruler was released how quick it was caught between finger and thumb. Clarkson at the end of the programme came to the conclusion, the top drivers would run over their Grannie if mean't winning the race, i.e. no conscience or feelings of guilt. Incidentally they also studied rally drivers. They filmed someone's feet has he was driving, that was like watching a tap dancer.

Concur with the top drivers, well some but not all as I don't recall Damian ever playing dirty and i'm sure there were others too that played a clean game but some top drivers not only ran over their grannies to win but your sure to remember the incidents where fuel line filters were removed and traction control was found to be on the Benneton car of, I believe 94/95 and guess who was part and parcel of that.

Ayrton Senna brought to the notice of the FIA as to the illegal use of traction control but nothing was really done about it or the fuel line business, I guess because people never connected cheating/bad sportsmanship with F1 as that scenario would never go down as Flavia of the month.

Remember the Top Gear episode you mentioned and miss the series, when I return to the Land of Scams will try to hook up with British television, Big Bry gave me pointers about getting the programmes.

I did a lot of club rallying in the early sixties, motorbikes before that but never actually won, came second several times but I put it down to having two left feet .

Edited June 19, 2011 by wackysleet

F1fanatic · June 19, 2011

Anyone remember a Top Gear episode, where Clarkson was trying to find out what makes a F1 driver different from Joe average? He used a 12 rule to measure a drivers reaction time. It happened to be Schumi. He compared Schumi's reaction to his own. The test being when the ruler was released how quick it was caught between finger and thumb. Clarkson at the end of the programme came to the conclusion, the top drivers would run over their Grannie if mean't winning the race, i.e. no conscience or feelings of guilt. Incidentally they also studied rally drivers. They filmed someone's feet has he was driving, that was like watching a tap dancer.

I too remember that episode as it was fascinating.

It boiled down to reaction times etc. being no different to the average BUT the top drivers were able to (basically) multi-task in a way the average person is unable to achieve. This (IIRC) meant they could drive the car without really thinking about it, concentrating on other factors.

As you say, they are also SOO competitive that they would probably "run over their Grannie if mean't winning the race" !

F1fanatic · June 19, 2011

Yes, the "monkeys" comment was made in jest - even though it didn't sound like it at the time and he's made similar comments about back-markers since - although admittedly he's avoided the tern "monkeys".

Similar comments? What, has he called them chimpanzees? Baboons? What is it he has said that you feel is similar?

I agree that the Ferrari when Schumi first joined the team was average - i.e. crap to anyone who has hopes of winning a WDC.

Your definition of crap then seems to be more like, not the best car on the grid. It differs from mine.

As for Schumi having no place in F1, he did in my opinion up until he took out Damon to win the Championship. He should at the very least have been deducted points for that season. There is no rightful way the record books should show him being a 7 times World Champ. That is just plain wrong. In addition to the points deduction, a ban of some sort should have been imposed. Might have given him pause for thought, and put an end to his "tricks".

Ashamed to admit that I'm too lazy to look it up, but LH fairly recently was complaining about back-markers. His attitude shines through, which is why he is not popular amongst the other drivers in poor cars....

You're right - a 'crap' car depends on who is making that definition. From a top drivers perspective though, it is any car that is mid-field, rather than fighting with the front-runners. Which is why Lewis started blaming the car when he suddenly found himself in a 'crap' car for the first few races of a season - not endearing himself to the team...

I don't even know where to start with your comments that Schumi should have been banned from F1. I think we've been over this old ground before - MS joined F1 in the Senna/Prost era when taking another competitor out was pretty much acceptable:, this became unacceptable as time went on:, blah blah etc. etc.

Even if you take out the 'questionable' championships, he was still the best of his era and deserved his place in F1.

After the Jacques Villneuve incident in '97, he clearly did learn that it was no longer acceptable, as he never did it again.

Edited June 19, 2011 by F1fanatic

Mosha · June 19, 2011

I think they said the rally drivers were 100 yds around the next bend in there thinking about what they were doing. I also remember some one asking a Finnish driver why Finland produced such great drivers. The response was on the lines of they were too dumb to be scared.

rixalex · June 19, 2011

Ashamed to admit that I'm too lazy to look it up, but LH fairly recently was complaining about back-markers. His attitude shines through, which is why he is not popular amongst the other drivers in poor cars....

I think what shines through is people's preconceived notions. Lewis has said some daft things in the past and some people have a set idea about him now, so if he comes out and says something like "getting past back markers was tricky today", suddenly you have people saying "why is he calling back markers baboons?".

As for not being popular, i think despite your comments about Schumi being nice, i don't think he was the most popular guy in the paddock either. Respected "yes", liked "not so much". That was my impression anyway.

Edited June 19, 2011 by rixalex

F1fanatic · June 19, 2011

I think they said the rally drivers were 100 yds around the next bend in there thinking about what they were doing. I also remember some one asking a Finnish driver why Finland produced such great drivers. The response was on the lines of they were too dumb to be scared.

I missed that, but its about right !

They're used to driving (during the winter) in such atrocious conditions that they lose all sense of fear!

(And yes, I do have some knowledge about this - its not just an assumption).

F1fanatic · June 19, 2011

Ashamed to admit that I'm too lazy to look it up, but LH fairly recently was complaining about back-markers. His attitude shines through, which is why he is not popular amongst the other drivers in poor cars....

I think what shines through is people's preconceived notions. Lewis has said some daft things in the past and some people have a set idea about him now, so if he comes out and says something like "getting past back markers was tricky today", suddenly you have people saying "why is he calling back markers baboons?".

As for not being popular, i think despite you comments about Schumi being nice, i don't think he was the most popular guy in the paddock either. Respected "yes", liked "not so much". That was my impression anyway.

I agree.

I don't know but suspect that Lewis is nowhere near as 'respected' as Schumi (in his 'glory years') by the other drivers.

IMO Lewis needs to EARN that respect and, so far, he hasn't done so. He became arrogant far too early in his career genuinely believing it was his 'genius' and had nothing to do with the car at all....

rixalex · June 19, 2011

I agree.

I don't know but suspect that Lewis is nowhere near as 'respected' as Schumi (in his 'glory years') by the other drivers.

No, i don't think he is. His career is in its early days and he needs to achieve a lot more.

IMO Lewis needs to EARN that respect and, so far, he hasn't done so.

Having the respect of other drivers is great, but it's not what drives any of them, it's not what keeps them up at night, it's not what fills them with passion. Winning is. People respect you that's great. People don't, well, you can try to change their opinion but you can't spend your whole life worrying about it. I don't think any sports people do. Too busy selling grandmothers trying to win

He became arrogant far too early in his career genuinely believing it was his 'genius' and had nothing to do with the car at all....

Nothing to do with the car? I think again you are making this stuff up to fit your perception of the man. Of course he knows and accepts that it was a great car. How many times did he thank the team for the car and the job they did when he won? Every time. That's not to say he doesn't believe that his job in the car contributed to the success. Of course it did.

And he is a genius behind the wheel. Just he happens to not be the only one.

F1fanatic · June 19, 2011

I agree.

I don't know but suspect that Lewis is nowhere near as 'respected' as Schumi (in his 'glory years') by the other drivers.

No, i don't think he is. His career is in its early days and he needs to achieve a lot more.

IMO Lewis needs to EARN that respect and, so far, he hasn't done so.

Having the respect of other drivers is great, but it's not what drives any of them, it's not what keeps them up at night, it's not what fills them with passion. Winning is. People respect you that's great. People don't, well, you can try to change their opinion but you can't spend your whole life worrying about it. I don't think any sports people do. Too busy selling grandmothers trying to win

He became arrogant far too early in his career genuinely believing it was his 'genius' and had nothing to do with the car at all....

Nothing to do with the car? I think again you are making this stuff up to fit your perception of the man. Of course he knows and accepts that it was a great car. How many times did he thank the team for the car and the job they did when he won? Every time. That's not to say he doesn't believe that his job in the car contributed to the success. Of course it did.

And he is a genius behind the wheel. Just he happens to not be the only one.

Except... he started complaining about the car as soon as it was no longer competitive as a top runner.

Other than that - WE AGREE .

wackysleet · June 19, 2011

Ashamed to admit that I'm too lazy to look it up, but LH fairly recently was complaining about back-markers. His attitude shines through, which is why he is not popular amongst the other drivers in poor cars....

I think what shines through is people's preconceived notions. Lewis has said some daft things in the past and some people have a set idea about him now, so if he comes out and says something like "getting past back markers was tricky today", suddenly you have people saying "why is he calling back markers baboons?".

As for not being popular, i think despite your comments about Schumi being nice, i don't think he was the most popular guy in the paddock either. Respected "yes", liked "not so much". That was my impression anyway.

I think the only people who respect a cheat is another cheat, at least as far as drivers are concerned and as with his ex team mates you do not hear them raving about him.

F1fanatic · June 19, 2011

Ashamed to admit that I'm too lazy to look it up, but LH fairly recently was complaining about back-markers. His attitude shines through, which is why he is not popular amongst the other drivers in poor cars....

I think what shines through is people's preconceived notions. Lewis has said some daft things in the past and some people have a set idea about him now, so if he comes out and says something like "getting past back markers was tricky today", suddenly you have people saying "why is he calling back markers baboons?".

As for not being popular, i think despite your comments about Schumi being nice, i don't think he was the most popular guy in the paddock either. Respected "yes", liked "not so much". That was my impression anyway.

I think the only people who respect a cheat is another cheat, at least as far as drivers are concerned and as with his ex team mates you do not hear them raving about him.

Actually you do. I think Irvine said that when Schumi arrived it was 'like being hit over a head with a cricket bat - he was that good' - or words to that effect.

Rubens still believes that even though he had the same car, he couldn't match Schumi 'cos the team demanded otherwise .

I understand why he feels this way (to a certain extent) - it was a race back in the early 00's when MS overtook him when (even though it was funny and cheeky to Schumi fans), he really should not have done so - the agreed understanding was that after the final round of pit stops, they would keep their positions. Schumi broke this Ferrari rule and should not have done so.

Whist I sympathise with Rubens, again to a certain extent, he is living in cloud cuckoo land if he still believes he could have matched Schumi in pure racing terms .

Edit - I'd forgotten Brundle. He may not like Schumi, but he respected him and accepted him as the top driver of his era - even though he didn't like his racing faults.

Edited June 19, 2011 by F1fanatic

wackysleet · June 19, 2011

Ashamed to admit that I'm too lazy to look it up, but LH fairly recently was complaining about back-markers. His attitude shines through, which is why he is not popular amongst the other drivers in poor cars....

I think what shines through is people's preconceived notions. Lewis has said some daft things in the past and some people have a set idea about him now, so if he comes out and says something like "getting past back markers was tricky today", suddenly you have people saying "why is he calling back markers baboons?".

As for not being popular, i think despite your comments about Schumi being nice, i don't think he was the most popular guy in the paddock either. Respected "yes", liked "not so much". That was my impression anyway.

I think the only people who respect a cheat is another cheat, at least as far as drivers are concerned and as with his ex team mates you do not hear them raving about him.

Actually you do. I think Irvine said that when Schumi arrived it was 'like being hit over a head with a cricket bat - he was that good' - or words to that effect.

Rubens still believes that even though he had the same car, he couldn't match Schumi 'cos the team demanded otherwise .

I understand why he feels this way (to a certain extent) - it was a race back in the early 00's when MS overtook him when (even though it was funny and cheeky to Schumi fans), he really should not have done so - the agreed understanding was that after the final round of pit stops, they would keep their positions. Schumi broke this Ferrari rule and should not have done so.

Whist I sympathise with Rubens, again to a certain extent, he is living in cloud cuckoo land if he still believes he could have matched Schumi in pure racing terms .

Edit - I'd forgotten Brundle. He may not like Schumi, but he respected him and accepted him as the top driver of his era - even though he didn't like his racing faults.

I think you are somewhat selective in what you choose to read, I have never said Michael was not talented or that he was probably the best driver upto the time he retired.

Maybe you should know a bit more about Irvine before you place any credence on his opinions and as for Rubens there is a guy that everyone has a good word for, Felipe another very capable driver, neither was a match for Michael skill wise or had the pull in the Ferrari team as Mr. Shumacher both firmly in the position of back up driver.

Before you go on about "His glory years" you should read and inwardly digest his earlier years to get an insight into his character but hey maybe your a person that thinks winning at any cost, anyway is acceptable, around the pits and paddock the only people in the racing world that respect him are those that were directly/indirectly feeding off him and Martin, I do not doubt that he accepted him as the top driver of the day but as for respect mmmmmmmmmmm.

By the way these are opinions based on spending a lot of time at F1 events more often than not in the pits and not based on what I have read but on what I know.

rixalex · June 19, 2011

Except... he started complaining about the car as soon as it was no longer competitive as a top runner.

Well when else would he complain about it?

Truth is, all drivers complain one way or another. "There's too much understeer". "Not enough top end speed". "No grip in the corners"

Standard stuff that you'll hear at any race weekend from any of the drivers. Except that when Lewis says it, some people choose to hear it as "the car is completely crap and the team is shit". Hearing what you want to hear and what fits with your perception of the man.

wackysleet · June 19, 2011

Except... he started complaining about the car as soon as it was no longer competitive as a top runner.

Well when else would he complain about it?

Truth is, all drivers complain one way or another. "There's too much understeer". "Not enough top end speed". "No grip in the corners"

Standard stuff that you'll hear at any race weekend from any of the drivers. Except that when Lewis says it, some people choose to hear it as "the car is completely crap and the team is shit". Hearing what you want to hear and what fits with your perception of the man.

Your totally correct in drivers stating their views on how the car is performing, that is their job that's why teams need the feedback and why they all employ test drivers, after all just look at Virgin Racing believing that they could design a winning car solely on C.A.D you still need imput from drivers/test drivers, I do believe that there is a distinction between discussing the short comings of the car and moaning about it and unless the driver, in this case Lewis does not crack the whip then perhaps a tad of complacency could creep in.

rixalex · June 19, 2011

Except... he started complaining about the car as soon as it was no longer competitive as a top runner.

Well when else would he complain about it?

Truth is, all drivers complain one way or another. "There's too much understeer". "Not enough top end speed". "No grip in the corners"

Standard stuff that you'll hear at any race weekend from any of the drivers. Except that when Lewis says it, some people choose to hear it as "the car is completely crap and the team is shit". Hearing what you want to hear and what fits with your perception of the man.

Your totally correct in drivers stating their views on how the car is performing, that is their job that's why teams need the feedback and why they all employ test drivers, after all just look at Virgin Racing believing that they could design a winning car solely on C.A.D you still need imput from drivers/test drivers, I do believe that there is a distinction between discussing the short comings of the car and moaning about it and unless the driver, in this case Lewis does not crack the whip then perhaps a tad of complacency could creep in.

Agreed. Guess there's an argument that Lewis goes public too often with his feelings on the car, but whether or not the team have a problem with him for this, is something we can only speculate about. My guess is that all the time he is performing in the car, the team accept it.. maybe not happily, but they do.

Mosha · June 19, 2011

Didn't Rubens say that while at Ferrari partnering Schumi, it was like driving with a team of lawyers in the cockpit? Or words to that effect.

wackysleet · June 19, 2011

Didn't Rubens say that while at Ferrari partnering Schumi, it was like driving with a team of lawyers in the cockpit? Or words to that effect.

Something along those lines and I remember Ayrton Senna being also a very strong influential team leader, even at one point dictating to the team who he wanted as a backup driver and it wasn't the teams choice but he got his way.

Senna was never happy when he had to compete against Alain Prost while in the same team at Mclarens, perhaps a little too much competition.

F1fanatic · June 20, 2011