Translation

[bannork]

Neeranam, are you a missionary (or similar religious person) in Thailand working to convert (or influence) Buddhists to Christianity (or similar ideas), by any chance?

No, I ain't even a practising Christian.

Trying to get Thai people sober and clean using a 12 step programme.

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Far too many steps, you can do it in 3, you could call it The Khon Kaen waltz:

1.Marry a Thai woman who disapproves of alcohol.

2.Give her all your wages, salary and income.

3. Smoke 1 or 2 'Khon Kaen cripplers' in the evening and then play chess with someone or even the computer.

I guarantee success within 3 days, the only drawback is it could involve a prison sentence but of course in there you'll be alcohol free.

[Mr. Farang]

Neeranam, are you a missionary (or similar religious person) in Thailand working to convert (or influence) Buddhists to Christianity (or similar ideas), by any chance?

No, I ain't even a practising Christian.

Trying to get Thai people sober and clean using a 12 step programme.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Neeranan,

That is very noble of you. Alcoholism is a very devastating and heart breaking disease. Did you discuss this with the senior Monks at the local temple(s)?

Yours sincerely, Mr. Farang

[taxexile]

discuss this with the senior Monks at the local temple(s)?

arent they the ones on your programme neerenram?

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(Neeranam @ 2005-09-21 15:37:57)

QUOTE

Neeranam, are you a missionary (or similar religious person) in Thailand working to convert (or influence) Buddhists to Christianity (or similar ideas), by any chance?

No, I ain't even a practising Christian.

Trying to get Thai people sober and clean using a 12 step programme.

Far too many steps, you can do it in 3, you could call it The Khon Kaen waltz:

1.Marry a Thai woman who disapproves of alcohol.

2.Give her all your wages, salary and income.

3. Smoke 1 or 2 'Khon Kaen cripplers' in the evening and then play chess with someone or even the computer.

I guarantee success within 3 days, the only drawback is it could involve a prison sentence but of course in there you'll be alcohol free.

Fraid that doesn't work mate(for me), not in the long-run.

[Neeranam]

Dear Neeranan,

That is very noble of you. Alcoholism is a very devastating and heart breaking disease. Did you discuss this with the senior Monks at the local temple(s)?

Yours sincerely, Mr. Farang

Yes I have tried to get them involved. They have lots of drunks, who go to the temples, as I'm sure you know. The 12 steps have actually been condensed into 8. Thai people seem to have a problem with making ammends due to the fact that "baap" can't be erased.

[Mr. Farang]

Yes I have tried to get them involved. They have lots of drunks, who go to the temples, as I'm sure you know. The 12 steps have actually been condensed into 8. Thai people seem to have a problem with making ammends due to the fact that "baap" can't be erased.

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Dear Khun Neeranam,

Yes, Thai people understand, baap. or บาป creates kamma and you correctly point out that kamma is not "erased" like when someone fires a gun, you can't erase the fact that gun was fired. - and put the bullet back in the gun

This is a fundamental reason why one or two Thais I have known (less than a handful, I might add) have changed to faith-based religions where บาป can be "erased" or "forgiven" by some spiritual transformation such as being "born again" or "forgiveness by some higher power." A Thai friend who converted to Christianity once told me... "Being a Buddhist is too hard. I like having a religion where I have an "easy way out"...." (interesting commentary for another day).

In Buddhism, certainly in Thai Buddhism, บาป is transformed by the process of "making merit"...... and so one's kamma become pure much like a glass of dirty water is purified drop-by-drop, by adding clear water.

If an alcoholic has done bad things, like hurt others badly, they cannot "erase this" by putting their life into the hands of some abstract notion of a "forgiving figure"... but, as you know, they must do good deeds (make merit) -

ทำบุญ - one of the foundational pillars of Thai society.

On the other hand, kamma is guided by "intention" and hence an alcoholic with a disease who harms others - but without bad intentions is less conditioned by bad kamma than someone who hurt others with bad intentions.

In addition, there are some บาป in Theravada Buddhism that is not "escapable" (correctable is the better term), from the perspective of kamma, .... for example, the murder of one's own father or mother.

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

[bannork]

A perfect opportunity to turn this thread into a discussion about sin, here's a very well known one-

เเพะรับบาป to be a scapegoat or the one who takes the rap for someone's sins.

Interesting how in many religions it seems to be the poor old goat that gets sacrificed.

[meadish_sweetball]

A perfect opportunity to turn this thread into a discussion about sin, here's a very well known one-

  เเพะรับบาป to be a scapegoat or the one who takes the rap for someone's sins.

Interesting how in many religions it seems to be the poor old goat that gets sacrificed.

Don't you think it is a cultural loan translation from Judaism via Christianity or perhaps Islam in this case? The scapegoat is an Old Testament phenomenon as far as I know.

[Mr. Farang]

A perfect opportunity to turn this thread into a discussion about sin, here's a very well known one-

  เเพะรับบาป to be a scapegoat or the one who takes the rap for someone's sins.

Interesting how in many religions it seems to be the poor old goat that gets sacrificed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't you think it is a cultural loan translation from Judaism via Christianity or perhaps Islam in this case? The scapegoat is an Old Testament phenomenon as far as I know.

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Dear Khun Bannork,

A friend of mine who has been both a (long time) student of both Mayahana and Theravada Buddhism, but tends to practice toward the aim of Mayahana in his life, explained "Sin" to me in the following context many years ago. I have discussed this context with a few Theravada Monks and they concurred with this explaination:

THe origin of the word "Sin" is based on a very old word, not sure of the exact origin, which meant "when the object (like an arrow) deviates from the target". For example, someone who, stands in front of a target, and the take an arrow and place it in their bow. They prepare to launch an arrow by pulling back the string and using their eyes and body to aim the arrow toward the target. The release the arrow and it deviates off target. This deviation off the target was once call "Sin" (according to my astute friend.)

In this historic context, "Sin" has very little do do with "God" or "Morality", which, in my opinion, is a narrow definition, based on an intended social cause, v. the more broader construct or context. "Sin" , in the broader context, is based on the individuals goals, their personal "target" and their choosen aspiration to achieve their goals and objectives. For example, if you go to school to learn Thai and you skip school to enjoy something else (say ice cream), this might be "you sin" toward yourself in context to your goal. If you goal is to eat ice cream, then there is no "sin"... laughing out loud. So, "Sin" is not necessarily "right" or "wrong" or "moral" or "immoral" -- it is simple the deviation from your target, any target, based on your kamma-situation and your goals and objectives.

So, in the context of Theravada Buddhism, "Sin" is more of a deviation from the Eight Fold Path, which is the target path of the Theravada student. Unlike Western-Christian context, this "Sin" is not necessary "moral" or "immoral" or "right" or "wrong" it simply is kamma, to be understood, not to be judged.

What is important in this context of "Sin" if one is a Buddhist?

In a nutshell, one should be aware, with the Wisdom of Insight (Vipassana Bhavana) that one has deviated off their individual target(s). Why am I off target? Did I aim at the right target? Was my target too difficult to hit - should I have picked a bigger target based on my kamma-situation? In other words - Know Thyself.

In the context of Khun Neeranam's comment on Sin and Buddhism, One, in the Buddhist way of thinking, does not need abstractions like "God" to "erase" our "off target" actions, words and deeds, because we can't erase the path of the arrow. We can try to put each successive arrow, closer to the intended target. That is one reason why making merit is so important to the Buddhist because making merit is an "easy way" to "put arrows on target"...... It is much harder to practice Vipassana Meditation for the average layperson than to take a trip down to the Temple and donate to the Sangha. However, it is better to support the Sangha than to take that money and throw it in the Mai Ping river, unless of course, some poor fisherman finds the money and uses it to help feed his hungry children or care for his sick grandmother. Kamma. It is all about kamma and kamma is relative to each person.

PS: I'm exhausted from two days of little sleep, so please forgive me if my typing is not clear. Anyway, "Sin" as I was explained, is based on an "Arrow off target" root word. My apologies, but I do not have a reference to support this word-of-mouth reference and might be mis-stating the context a bit - but I think my typing is close to the intention of what I was taught.

Very best wishes.

Yours sincerely, Mr. Farang

[bannork]

Is it true in Buddhism we cannot ล้างบาป the price must be paid if we missed the 'target'?

[Mr. Farang]

Is it true in Buddhism we cannot ล้างบาป the price must be paid if we missed the 'target'?

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Dear Khun Bannork,

In one manner of thinking "missing the target" *is* the "price that is paid." In other words, the "price" for missing the target is "missing the target" and all the kamma, or กรรม, of this situation.

For example, if your aim was a masters degree in Engineering and you "missed the target" the price you would pay would be "not having a masters degree in Engineering"..... and the kamma associated with that situation. If the next year your target became "become a physician" and you then met that target, the you would have that กรรม.

One of the more obvious "prices you paid" is that you would have much higher malpractice insurance (than if you had stayed on the course in engineering studies), laughing out loud.

Similar constructs can be made for "aim and off target" analogies in moral belief systems.

My thoughts are that บาป is a very conditioned word, conditioned by the objectives of the ระบบ ("system") where บาป "occurs"..... relative to the "targets" of the system.

With regard to ล้างบาป, that occurs by "purifying the system", which in Theravada (Thai-style) Buddhism is often described as "putting a drop of clear, pure water, drop-by-drop, in dirty, unpure water." Making merit, or การทำบุญ is one of the primary ways to ล้างบาป. The "aim" of การทำบุญ is the process of "putting a drop of clear, pure water, drop-by-drop, in dirty, unpure water."

Therefore, it is not true that in Buddhism you cannot ล้างบาป. By my short description of "making merit" you can see how in Buddhism and in Thai culture, one can "wash or clean" their "sins." With this knowledge, one can easily see how merit-making and สมภาร is very central to Thai culture and tradition.

การทำบุญ

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang