Teaching English Here In Chiang Mai

[ELCata]

Some people do get WP's with no degree and some of the people that are just teaching as a way to have an extended overseas experience are actually better than the teachers that meet your personal standards. Again, with the glut of people WITH degrees I simply don't bother even interviewing people that don't have one.

I take your point about teachers who have a Bachelors Degree, in say Marketing & Finance, being a worse teacher than someone who lacks one; we're talking about EFL here, not subject specialities.

However, comparing someone who has a teaching degree to someone who hasn't is like comparing Einstein to a chimp.

Before I began my PGCE, I imagined that teaching would resemble my schooling, copying down words from a blackboard & learning by rote. Had I commenced teaching without the foundations of my PGCE to hand, I would have mimicked my teachers (also from college & university BTW).

Without specialist training, I would be unaware of modern student centred teaching methods, which have been proven in RCTs (research) to improve knowledge retention rates. How would I know how to differentiate & promote inclusive learning? How would I know that I have to use a multi-sensory approach to ensure that those with learning disabilities are included in the learning process?

Through classroom theory, mentor-ship, observation of qualified teachers & grading to OFSTED (government inspectorate) standard, I am infinitely more qualified than 'a born teacher' with no training.

[uptheos]

I doubt very much (in practice), if schools would actually know the difference between an English teacher with a degree and one without, if it weren't a prerequisite to hiring.

[jdinasia]

again .. it was the "facts" of your post that were the issue. Some folks do get WP's and some are better teachers than those with a degree.

El Cata

Whilst you make some valid points, some teachers no matter how highly accredited plain and simply suck. Some people with no teaching credentials at all are good. Are you a better teacher because of your education? I hope so. Is everyone? Life on the ground in most Thai schools teaching English is rather arduous most of the time. I observe teachers almost daily and know of many that are excellent. They are not excellent because of their teaching credentials, they are excellent because of their personalities and dedication.

All the great information in the world about "how to" teach simply will not be that useful in some Thai schools. I don't teach even though I could. Why? It just isn't something that over time is enjoyable to me.

In the ideal world every teacher would not only be well trained, they would also be suited to the job and love it The world isn't ideal.

Its not my personal standards - its the standards of being a qualified teacher

If someone is naturally a gifted teacher, maybe they should consider investing into the profession and making a career out of it

[ELCata]

Whilst you make some valid points, some teachers no matter how highly accredited plain and simply suck. Some people with no teaching credentials at all are good. Are you a better teacher because of your education? I hope so. Is everyone? Life on the ground in most Thai schools teaching English is rather arduous most of the time. I observe teachers almost daily and know of many that are excellent. They are not excellent because of their teaching credentials, they are excellent because of their personalities and dedication.

All the great information in the world about "how to" teach simply will not be that useful in some Thai schools. I don't teach even though I could. Why? It just isn't something that over time is enjoyable to me.

In the ideal world every teacher would not only be well trained, they would also be suited to the job and love it The world isn't ideal.

I'm curious to know what criteria you use to define whether a teacher is 'good' or not. I don't know if you have a teaching background (you'll just lie anyway) but you seem to committing the 'argument from personal incredulity' here.

Students may enjoy the lessons & like the teacher. Parents may say that they are happy with their children's progress. This has nothing at all to do with objectively measuring knowledge retention; I stress the word 'objectively'.

That said this is EFL we're largely discussing. A kindergarten teacher who can sing & play the guitar will be a better teacher than an uncharismatic BA linguistics stiff. A teacher with 20 years experience may become disillusioned & only give a 'grade 1' lesson whilst they're being observed (it happens a lot in the UK); not an ideal world as you say, but that's no excuse & there are always exceptions to the rule.

Teaching requires a basic 'soft skill' set. Presentation skills, charisma, passion, social skills, classroom control etc are all prerequisites for a good teacher but, especially as the students become older, modern teaching methods make a HUGE difference. For example, did you know that self assessment has been shown to increase student's grades by one standard deviation or 2 grade points? That's the difference between a C & an A.

[uptheos]

A lot of defensive and sensitive teachers out there.

[jdinasia]

A lot of defensive and sensitive teachers out there.

Quite --- and apparently I'll "just lie anyway" ... (ad hominem anyone?)

Again, with the glut of folks WITH degrees why would anyone hire someone without one?

[Greenside]

Try Far Eastern University. I know some of the students there and their English teacher sucks big time. (I know i helped with a lot of there home work).

Hope you advised them to use the right form of "their"

[ELCata]

A lot of defensive and sensitive teachers out there.

No there aren't.

I feel a lot better now that I've gotten all that of my chest.

Quite --- and apparently I'll "just lie anyway" ... (ad hominem anyone?)

Touché.

Although you must admit that people often lie just to win an argument on a forum. I've done this one before & it's amazing how often people pull out a teaching degree out of their 'ass' at the right moment.

Nothing personal.:jap:

[Thighlander]

Ever notice how it is usually a "very popular" teacher, that winds up on the front page of the paper for sexual mischief? Sometimes even a former "Teacher of the Year." I saw a recent study that showed the kids learn the same from 80% of the teachers, and learn a little more from the top 10%, and a little less from the bottom 10%. How they are viewed by their students and peers is usually not a good indicator of how much their students actually learn.

[heybruce]

Wow, some excellent observations on, uh,.... what was this topic about?

[ratcliffe]

Best bet is to try language centres rather than a school. The money is pretty similar if your prepared to put the hours in and they aren't as fussy about degree's and work permits.

Good luck

[Thighlander]

There not "fussy" because they are not the ones going, who are going to jail.http://www.teflwatch.org/teachers-in-jail-2007226.html

[Sparkles]

Sparkles -- I am slightly confused about your posts because you seem to be pretty confident about teachers getting jobs without degrees but your only experience is that your daughter used the Chiang Mai educational system to fund her holiday - am I wrong?

I am sure she worked very hard but at the end of the day the reason she did it was to fund her trip in Thailand at the cost of the education of Thai children so she was part of the problem and not part of the solution

I agree that pay is low but the quality of life still beats unemployment in the West and if you look around you will see about 100,000 teachers having been laid off since 2009 so there are more and more real teachers available willing to work for less

I just find your comments woefully ignorant about the current situation and they are dangerous because many of the 1,000+ views of this thread will be interested in this and find your comments encouraging

"Teachers" without degrees will be working illegally because they cant get a work permit in a time that the Thai MOE is cracking down harder and harder on foreign teachers. Either these people will be set up for failure after a year or so or worse they will only be using it to fund extended holidays at the cost of the education of children. Is this really what you are encouraging?

As much as I would LIKE to agree with you PlanetX --- I can't.

Some people do get WP's with no degree and some of the people that are just teaching as a way to have an extended overseas experience are actually better than the teachers that meet your personal standards. Again, with the glut of people WITH degrees I simply don't bother even interviewing people that don't have one.

Planet X I have just returned to this ongoing discussion and your obnoxious, ill informed remarks.Lets deal with your confusion .My daughter did not have to fund a holiday in Thailand by working as a teacher. she had previously been in full time employment in Australia and had funds to have a long holiday without working if she chose to. She enquired through her TEFL provider in Chiang mai PRIOR to her signing up for the course and was told SOME jobs were available without degrees.Her choice was to teach younger children ,5,6, 7 age groups who she a great rapport with.We didn't see any mental damage she caused them only joy and enthusiasm. It's also.as you claim, my first experience,as you put it. I am woefully ignorant and dangerous ??? really ? I worked for 8 years as a totally legal ,fully qualified, teacher at a private school in Bangkok. My students included doctors,financial advisers ,airline, hospitality staff etc and younger people trying to improve their English skills to obtain better employment . I have not spent one single day in the 10 years I have been in Thailand without being 100% legal.That however did not prevent me from seeing what was going on around me and people with very little education obtaining jobs only because they were a native speaker.

I have never "encouraged" any person to work illegally. I have simply stated, over and over, in previous posts, that is happening, everywhere, throughout Thailand and will continue despite the threatened "crack downs" which we hear on a regular basis.A close friend who is a branch manager at a private school in Bangkok has for 2 weeks been trying to get a suitable replacement teacher with the correct qualifications, he is still looking , so much for an oversupply.

Lastly a former colleague yesterday passed onto me,after observing this thread and not wanting to get involved , the latest copy of BACKPACKER South East Asia. I suggest you gooogle www.southeastasiabackpacker.com and read the article "Get paid to travel"..teach English all over the world.Then log onto the full page advertiser www.islandtefl.com. Hopefully then you be a more informed ,and more respectful poster !

[PlanetX]

So you are 100% legal but encourage others not to be because a shady TEFL company takes out a full page ad?

[AjarnRC]

I really liked the comment about teaching summer camps as a way of getting your foot in the door. I just secured a teaching job through an old teaching buddy of mine (I taught in BKK a year ago) and I am working the summer camp starting April 1, teaching PE and nutrition courses to the kids. Here's an idea. If any of you prospective teachers have an athletic background, make that visible to your contacts or interviewers. I played Division 1 football in college and coached a few 7 on 7 camps during my summers in school. Plus, it's all about how you present yourself. I was able to successfully convey the idea that I was not only a proficient native speaker and ESL teacher, but also well versed in sports, nutrition, and motivating kids on the field. Let me tell ya, Thai's love athletics and as a result, I taught PE classes to pratom 1-6 in addition to my FEP classes.

Good luck guys! I arrive in CM end of march. I look forward to every moment!

RC

[Thighlander]

Can you honestly say you have a Work Permit?

[Loaded]

Here's a copy of Thai Labor law in English:

http://www.thailaws.com/

There's no mention that I can find of a degree being necessary in order to obtain a work permit as a teacher.

Here's a copy of the requirements of the Teacher Council of Thailand's requirements for a 2-year renewable ‘provisional teaching permit’ or TL waiver:

http://www.ksp.or.th/Khurusapha/en/

“a copy of degree or educational background”

So, a degree isn't a legal requirement to obtain a work permit and a degree isn't a legal requirement to obtain 2-year renewable TL waivers. However, most formal schools where there is a large foreign teacher population will request one.

Language schools are not part of the formal school system and TLs aren't a requirement at all.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Loaded

[Sparkles]

So you are 100% legal but encourage others not to be because a shady TEFL company takes out a full page ad?

So now www.islandtefl.com is a "shady" company,because they took out an ad,plus several pages of participants experiences, in teaching, in a magazine which appeals to young people wishing to travel and earn some money. Well must be loads of "shady" companies out there, even in CM.

You are very big on accusations Planet X. For the umpteenth time I am not encouraging anyone to do anything illegal I am just trying to point out to you that SOME people, can and do, work in the education system in Thailand and other Asian countries without a degree That is the reality of the situation.How many times do you have to be told by myself and other posters? If you can't accept it you really have a problem.

[Thighlander]

even if you don't need a TL, you still need a WP, even to volunteer.

[PaulD]

Looking at these entries as an outsider (happily retired, and just now done with phone calls to the other side of the planet), it seems to me that there are some salient points being lost in the fray:

*Teaching here is relatively ill paid, and Thai teachers are particularly ill paid.

*Teaching standards and tactics here generally are equivalent of Western nations 100-150 years ago.

*Teaching English here is demanding; class sizes might be stupendous or more.

*Various avenues are available to employment, but appearance, enthusiasm, and a willing subservience are good qualities to demonstrate.

Applicants for these arduous duties should not expect to have ample time to live the life, as most of waking hours will be required by duty.

Thus, wanting such a position should best fall to one who loves success at teaching children far more than Thailand, for

- there are far better ways to advance a career path

- and for those thinking of teaching in the West, it is just a delay

- good teaching is not about the self; great teaching almost gives it up.

Allow me to remark, in passing, that some of the "research" waved around in these amiable discussions are akin to many others - small, unconfirmed, and faddish. Educational research in general, rarely subjected to worthwhile peer review, can be said to be difficult to confirm (probably worthless, in the long run). Moreover, applying studies to other cultures is tricky, though these days many of the buzz phrases used by ELCata represent transportable methods that might have great value - but their application here, given environmental issues at work, would certainly require enormous preparation time and thought - subtract still more hours from beer.

In short, love kids, forget you, or getouttatown.

[newbie001]

"Thai teachers are particularly ill paid"

Do you smoke crack or are you just blind?

If Thai teachers are so ill paid then how do they afford cars?

Did you know that all Thai teachers teach private classes after school? They get an average of 1000 baht a month per kid for 1-2 hours a day extra. Private school teachers charge closer to 2,000 per kid. Government school teachers usually have about 20-40 kids in their extra class, private schools usually have 10-20.

Teachers' base salary is minimal but nobody would stay there if they didn't get some benefit.

I know of 3 teachers at a government school in the heart of the city that drive very expensive cars. If your minimum monthly payment is 20,000 baht for a car like that then how does a teacher making less than 10,000 baht pay for the minimum monthly balance?

Teaching is not as well paid as other professions but it isn't a destitute field for Thais to get into. Many are in the 30K a month range for income when they retire.

[Loaded]

"Thai teachers are particularly ill paid"

Do you smoke crack or are you just blind?

If Thai teachers are so ill paid then how do they afford cars?

Did you know that all Thai teachers teach private classes after school? They get an average of 1000 baht a month per kid for 1-2 hours a day extra. Private school teachers charge closer to 2,000 per kid. Government school teachers usually have about 20-40 kids in their extra class, private schools usually have 10-20.

Teachers' base salary is minimal but nobody would stay there if they didn't get some benefit.

I know of 3 teachers at a government school in the heart of the city that drive very expensive cars. If your minimum monthly payment is 20,000 baht for a car like that then how does a teacher making less than 10,000 baht pay for the minimum monthly balance?

Teaching is not as well paid as other professions but it isn't a destitute field for Thais to get into. Many are in the 30K a month range for income when they retire.

Thai government school teachers' salaries start at around 8,000 baht per month.

Your statement that 'all' Thai teachers are teaching private classes that earn them an extra 20 - 40,000 THB per month is ridiculous. There may be a few but most wouldn't have time anyway. Most government and private school teachers start work before the foreign teachers arrive and finish quite often after they leave. In addition, they often have to give up their Saturdays for school events. They also have families.

Parents send their kids to government schools because it's free and they can't afford the fees of a private school. But you are saying these parents quite happily stump up an extra 1,000 THB per month per class for each of their children to study extra classes! And where do these teachers teach their 'extra' classes of 20 - 40 students? In their 2-bedroom town house? I'm not saying some don't teach extra classes but your exaggeration isn't even close to reality.

Government school teachers are often hundreds of thousands of baht in debt. One of their perks is cheap loans from the government which are often used to buy a 'nice' car. It's all on credit. The car is often more expensive than their home. Face, face, face.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Loaded

[Thighlander]

and don't forget those low interest loans to buy 9mms in the South. Sorry to get off topic, but the guy's Summer Camp Job reminded me of something hilarious. I, too, was looking for a Summer camp job, in China (www.seriousteachers.com) and found one in China, that stated "We need a foreign teacher who does not have gambling addictions." They must have had a rough time during the World Cup last year......but then again, didn't the Chinese invent gambling?

Edited February 25, 2011 by Thighlander

[naboo]

My girlfriend's a teacher. She makes 13.5k/month for her full time job. She teaches 4 hours private 1 on 1 a week after school for which she makes 2000B/month, and teaches 5hrs every Saturday, for which she receives 500B per day.

She has an MSc but has little teaching experience. 100B per hour after school classes is pretty normal.

The only teachers who make good money are those who get into government schools and stay there. Their salary increases year on year and I know of one Thai teacher who, after 35 years teaching, is on over 40k/month.

I've psted before, salaries for foreigners are approx:

20k/month no degree, no experience

25k/month degree, no experience. Increases to maybe 35k if experienced, extra for responsibilities.

30k/month Englsh Program subject teacher, increases to 40k with experience, extra for responsibilities.

40-80k/month International schools.

Language schools pay miserably.

[Thighlander]

My girlfriend's a teacher. She makes 13.5k/month for her full time job. She teaches 4 hours private 1 on 1 a week after school for which she makes 2000B/month, and teaches 5hrs every Saturday, for which she receives 500B per day.

She has an MSc but has little teaching experience. 100B per hour after school classes is pretty normal.

The only teachers who make good money are those who get into government schools and stay there. Their salary increases year on year and I know of one Thai teacher who, after 35 years teaching, is on over 40k/month.

I've psted before, salaries for foreigners are approx:

20k/month no degree, no experience

25k/month degree, no experience. Increases to maybe 35k if experienced, extra for responsibilities.

30k/month Englsh Program subject teacher, increases to 40k with experience, extra for responsibilities.

40-80k/month International schools.

Language schools pay miserably.

accurate assessment.........paperwork headaches worse than the IRS (US) in most cases.

[CMX]

Well, how does someone buy a fancy car on salaries that only rarely (after 35 years) equal 40k/month? I make that out to be upwards of a year's income, and I underlined upwards.

Also, I am not clear about how long a school day is for a teacher, either in a public school or a private. Seems to me that teaching full time, tutoring, and working on Saturday would not leave a great deal of time to carouse. Or hike or bike. Or spend much "quality" time with family, travel a lot, or learn Thai very quickly. Are there no papers to check, plans to make, materials to prepare? Conferences, meetings? Why, young men would have to avoid Loi Kroh with a passion, which, living on 20K, would be a particularly good idea anyway.

Now, my niece is a teacher in the U.S., maybe 12 years in the job. Everyone's working in her region has had a pay cut, of course, and so she's making do now with her 115,000 baht/month (10 months). And there are many things cheaper there (second hand cars and everything imported into Thailand pretty much).

Edited February 25, 2011 by CMX

[kevbap]

My girlfriend's a teacher. She makes 13.5k/month for her full time job. She teaches 4 hours private 1 on 1 a week after school for which she makes 2000B/month, and teaches 5hrs every Saturday, for which she receives 500B per day.

She has an MSc but has little teaching experience. 100B per hour after school classes is pretty normal.

The only teachers who make good money are those who get into government schools and stay there. Their salary increases year on year and I know of one Thai teacher who, after 35 years teaching, is on over 40k/month.

I've psted before, salaries for foreigners are approx:

20k/month no degree, no experience

25k/month degree, no experience. Increases to maybe 35k if experienced, extra for responsibilities.

30k/month Englsh Program subject teacher, increases to 40k with experience, extra for responsibilities.

40-80k/month International schools.

Language schools pay miserably.

good stuff, but i cant see my salary, No degree, experienced and TEFL certificate? 20,000? oh and English without an accent !

and Thai language knowledge!

[CMX]

Mistake - sorry

For comparison, my niece is contributing her part of the family income, just reduced I now find to 183,000 baht each month (10 months only however, but no tutoring or official Saturday duties to subtract from family life and personal development). Of course, it is not Thailand, she is getting along in life, what with a 2 year old, and she cannot ride a motorbike where she lives every day. (Actually, any day, but ...)

It was that kind of notion that led me, apparently, to the error in suggesting that a hard earned 20,000 baht per month, or 30,000, was not a great deal. I can see that for someone highly motivated to help kids that such reimbursement would suffice. But I too suppose that those looking at the money and visa as simply a way of living in Thailand should move along, as they will not give the kids all they've got to give to the job.

Edited February 25, 2011 by CMX

[naboo]

good stuff, but i cant see my salary, No degree, experienced and TEFL certificate? 20,000? oh and English without an accent !

and Thai language knowledge!

Ask for 5k more than your last job. I know of people in Chiang Mai with no degree earning over 30k, one making over 50k - it all depends on how you apply yourself.

If I was recruiting, I'd be looking for experience over TEFL or a degree (neither of which are required of course) and someone who could accurately find faults with their demonstration lesson. If I found someone like that, I'd offer them as much as I could. The figures I wrote above are guesstimates.

[PlanetX]

So you are 100% legal but encourage others not to be because a shady TEFL company takes out a full page ad?

So now www.islandtefl.com is a "shady" company,because they took out an ad,plus several pages of participants experiences, in teaching, in a magazine which appeals to young people wishing to travel and earn some money. Well must be loads of "shady" companies out there, even in CM.

You are very big on accusations Planet X. For the umpteenth time I am not encouraging anyone to do anything illegal I am just trying to point out to you that SOME people, can and do, work in the education system in Thailand and other Asian countries without a degree That is the reality of the situation.How many times do you have to be told by myself and other posters? If you can't accept it you really have a problem.

This thread has over 1200+ views so if you dont think people are reading your comments and feeling encouraged you have a problem

Young people that want to travel and take advantage of the poor Thai educational system at the expense of young Thai children -- thats great

your a clown

Edited February 25, 2011 by PlanetX