Emptyset Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Actually, the Red Shirt violence pre-dates that of the yellows with the their riot in July 2007 that injured hundreds. We're still waiting for the court cases to proceed further on those charges, btw. Maybe it moved so slowly because there's not much of a case against them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyset Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Or the more well heeled ones have a connection with PTP and higher end Red leadership backers, and see financial light at the end of their personel tunnels if the Reds win in the coming election. To imagine that only the rural poor and hopeful are backing Thaksin's mob is absurd. That's one possibility. Of course many of those funding the reds will expect some reward should the Thaksin lead network regain power. However, I do know quite a few "hi-so" types who support the reds because they believe it's about democracy etc. People say that the international media were fooled because they don't know any Thai, but apparently there's quite a few well-educated Thais that are also fooled (must be fooled since they won't get any direct benefit from supporting reds). One friend actually has connections with some high level Democrats, doesn't know any PT folk at all and didn't like Thaksin, but I'd almost say he's become a die hard redshirt. I think a lot of people like this aren't specifically rooting for Thaksin or his people, they're just against Prem and the so-called amaat (i.e. what could broadly be described as the "royalist" network). They see this network as more entrenched and a greater threat to democracy & equality in the long-run than Thaksin, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>redshirts are redshirts because they make the ( choice ) to not work hard and work towards making future generations upwardly mobile.<BR>They supposedly are buddhists but all that occupys them is the petty and temporal.<BR>they supposedly love the leader of The Kingdom but they choose to ignore the fact that HRH has already spoken to all this when He allowed His military to oust taksin.<BR>They need to stop blaming folks for their making a prior choice to not plan for life.<BR><BR>Clueless, clueless, clueless. Do you really think there is a level playing field and everyone starts life with equal opportunity? Do you really think that subsistence farming isn't hard work? Do you really think that the schools in the villages where one or two teachers teach all ages and all subjects provide an education equal to the private schools the rich can afford?<BR><BR><BR><IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/violin.gif"> <BR><BR>Regardless of all the relavant points you make;<BR>no one forces those unable to afford children to have children and no one should be legislated into helping those who are unwilling to plan for an independent life.<BR>HRH has already spoken to all this when He allowed His military to oust taksin and take down the protests last year.<BR>This is a Kingdom and a Buddhist one at that.<BR>know what I mean<BR> Oh, I see, people born into poverty deserve to be poor because their parents didn't use proper family planning--the children must suffer for the sins of the parents. Well that's certainly simpler than providing good schools, clinics, roads, etc. to the poor regions; these people deserve to be poor because their parents were poor and wanted children. Thank you for clearing this up. How do you propose to get around that pesky democracy fad where these poor people vote for people who they think will help the poor? Much worse, what do we do when these people protest after their elected government gets overthrown by the military or seemingly biased judiciary? Oh wait, I think we've seen how that plays out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 "Unprecedented" - having no previous example. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/unprecedented Yet, there are plenty of previous examples of the red shirts not getting as many protesters as they predicted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Actually, the Red Shirt violence pre-dates that of the yellows with the their riot in July 2007 that injured hundreds. We're still waiting for the court cases to proceed further on those charges, btw. Maybe it moved so slowly because there's not much of a case against them? Plenty of video evidence and pictures from that violent incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Addressing your first point jdinasia - it certainly looks like they failed to make the numbers they would have wanted - but then again there were several thousand lined - in the shade - on both sides of Ratchadamnoen and along the Supreme Court side of Sanam Luang - and on the road itself both sides of the Democracy Monument - at around 5.00 PM when I left. All the time many more were joining the rally so who knows what the final tally will be. The cool of dark always brings out many more rally-goers. Undoubtedly many Bangkokians - the majority - attended the rally and yes some of them do indeed have nice motors - but they are a very - very - small minority. Obviously they share the same beliefs and aspirations of ordinary Red-Shirt protesters. They haven't forgotten their roots. As for your assertion they control the ordinary mass and file of Red-Shirt protesters. Sorry wrong. It's essentially a grass roots movement with common beliefs shared by all of its participants. Whatever the outcome and assessment of today's events - the Reds are back. Red across the land! No numbers ---- and nothing "grass roots" about the reds or their leadership. "the majority" a very very small minority? Huh? Whatever the outcome ... the reds failed yet again to make any real impression, or live up to the "unprecedented numbers" promised. They aren't "back", they are simply a small minority movement controlled by the "elite" and with a huge penchant for violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insight Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Addressing your first point jdinasia - it certainly looks like they failed to make the numbers they would have wanted If it turns out to be a source of embarrassment for them they could always follow the red shirt 101 and deny they were ever responsible for the rally. Instead claim its an army plot to turn out lower numbers as an attempt to discredit the red shirt cause (as if they really need to make any effortt here!). There's clearly a good number of morons who will believe whatever nonsense they're spoon-fed from their "leaders". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Actually, the Red Shirt violence pre-dates that of the yellows with the their riot in July 2007 that injured hundreds. We're still waiting for the court cases to proceed further on those charges, btw. Maybe it moved so slowly because there's not much of a case against them? Hard to imagine that's the rationale. There's no shortage of evidence which indicate the reason is for something else. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 The other paper is reporting that Jatuporn announcing from the stage this afternoon that today is the biggest Red Shirt rally ever. it certainly looks like they failed to make the numbers they would have wanted That doesn't jive with what Jatuporn announced from the rally stage above. Red across the land! That redness comes from the embarrassment of their repeated failings, deceptive pronouncements, and dwindling support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyset Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Actually, the Red Shirt violence pre-dates that of the yellows with the their riot in July 2007 that injured hundreds. We're still waiting for the court cases to proceed further on those charges, btw. Maybe it moved so slowly because there's not much of a case against them? Plenty of video evidence and pictures from that violent incident. Yeah, but they have to prove that the UDD leaders incited the violence to charge them, don't they? I don't know if there is any proof of that. Or is the charge trespassing? How could they be charged with that, though? They weren't inside Prem's compound, although IIRC some tried to go inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Actually, the Red Shirt violence pre-dates that of the yellows with the their riot in July 2007 that injured hundreds. We're still waiting for the court cases to proceed further on those charges, btw. Maybe it moved so slowly because there's not much of a case against them? Plenty of video evidence and pictures from that violent incident. Yeah, but they have to prove that the UDD leaders incited the violence to charge them, don't they? I don't know if there is any proof of that. Or is the charge trespassing? How could they be charged with that, though? They weren't inside Prem's compound, although IIRC some tried to go inside. The UDD has a proven history of instigating violence from the very first moment they 'arose'. Against anyone deemed against their 'I don't know any' hero k. Thaksin. PS although 2009 - 2010 period, but where is that clip with 'burn-it-my-way' k. Arisman when you need it. Who has archived the PTV broadcasts of main stage speeches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Actually, the Red Shirt violence pre-dates that of the yellows with the their riot in July 2007 that injured hundreds. We're still waiting for the court cases to proceed further on those charges, btw. Maybe it moved so slowly because there's not much of a case against them? Plenty of video evidence and pictures from that violent incident. Yeah, but they have to prove that the UDD leaders incited the violence to charge them, don't they? I don't know if there is any proof of that. Or is the charge trespassing? How could they be charged with that, though? They weren't inside Prem's compound, although IIRC some tried to go inside. Over three years after the incident, on August 24, 2010 Veera Musigapong, Natthawut Saikua, Vipoothalaeng Pattanapoomthai, and Weng Tojirakarn showed up at the Criminal Court yesterday to be formally informed about the charges against them. They were charged with stirring unrest, threatening officials, and resisting orders to end an illegal protest. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/08/24/politics/Red-shirt-leaders-deny-causing-riot-outside-Prems--30136441.html Edited February 20, 2011 by Buchholz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyset Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Over three years after the incident, on August 24, 2010 Veera Musigapong, Natthawut Saikua, Vipoothalaeng Pattanapoomthai, and Weng Tojirakarn showed up at the Criminal Court yesterday to be formally informed about the charges against them. They were charged with stirring unrest, threatening officials, and resisting orders to end an illegal protest. http://www.nationmul...--30136441.html Threatening officials, i.e. Prem? Resisting orders to end the protest, OK... but why was it illegal? Oh yeah, under the junta, I assume. "Stirring unrest" is a crime? Sounds quite subjective. Can see people being arrested for that under the junta, but in a democracy could "stirring unrest" really be a crime? Inciting violence, yes, but prosecutors must prove the UDD leaders incited violence, rather than it just being a case of the crowd reacting to police (as is the case in so many protests all over the world). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Over three years after the incident, on August 24, 2010 Veera Musigapong, Natthawut Saikua, Vipoothalaeng Pattanapoomthai, and Weng Tojirakarn showed up at the Criminal Court yesterday to be formally informed about the charges against them. They were charged with stirring unrest, threatening officials, and resisting orders to end an illegal protest. http://www.nationmul...--30136441.html Threatening officials, i.e. Prem? Resisting orders to end the protest, OK... but why was it illegal? Obviously, the paper was paraphrasing the actual specific criminal charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyleonhard Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I hope this week we will see Jamlong arrested and the fat boy Jatuporn surrender to be detained, both should be in the slammer for the harm they have caused to Thailand and the nonsense they have talked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianbaggie Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just shows how desperate red shirts and their organisation are to dig "something/ANYTHING" up on the other side - when there isnt that much to dig up!! Shame they cant do something FOR Thailand instead of AGAINST it Yes, very true. This from the man who was questioning Thaksins daughters sexuality, discusses Jaturporns (or was it Arismans, I didn't take much notice) weight and other serious topics. I've never questioned Thaksin's daughter's sexuality and Arisaman is over-weight and his Mission Impossible-esque hotel escape was humorous because of it. Very true Bucholz and infact his posting shows a desperate attempt to put something petty back on you - proving my original post!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianbaggie Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Wonderful how the red supporters twist everything out of context. Trying to make a thread about the reds into one about the yellows. However I will answer this one: Arguing that one is more violent than the other is like arguing which egg is more egg-shaped. A much better analogy would be dogs. Both are capable of biting and causing injury. But in this case the red dog is much more vicious, violant and deadly than the yellow dog. The more you kick a dog the more likely it will bite........ or in this case - "the more you pay a rice farmer 500 baht a day the more it will fire grenades and burn down public buildings...............................". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianbaggie Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Actually, the Red Shirt violence pre-dates that of the yellows with the their riot in July 2007 that injured hundreds. We're still waiting for the court cases to proceed further on those charges, btw. Maybe it moved so slowly because there's not much of a case against them? Maybe the same "not much of a case against them" could be applied to the yellows at the airport eh" - another red skirt twister!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 And of course they will be fair and also show paper birds in memorium for the 2,500 Thais murdered by thaksin in his personal vebdetta on drugs, plus the several hundred dead young men in the South of Thailand, many of whom suffocated to death, all on thaksins watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Something just seems very wrong with the fact these lunatics keep using reasons to hold these rallies that only relate to the consequences of the rally (rioting) last year. Even though they turned down early elections last year (that would have already happened) and walked away with nothing but causing pain for themselves and all the people of Thailand they continue to stage these events where they continue to get bolder and provoke police as they did last year. Do they really expect to see a different result? They are not using these rallies to get a message out .. they are using them to intimidate and inconvenience the country to get their way. Why are they not forced to pay for the added police presence as well as compensating those people and businesses that are effected by these constant gatherings? Ok, let them do it once but to do this nonsense every other week (or more) is excessive. I personally predict that they are going to get very bold this time around and may actually once again try to spur a revolution or cripple the government. Somebody should tell them before hand this only works in a country where the people want one. One can only imagine how well off these so called poor farmers would be if they used the resources they continue to waste on these gatherings to help advance their own lives. Could also be that they know PT cannot legitimately win the next election, therefore cause trouble to push PM Abhisit to delay the election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Something just seems very wrong with the fact these lunatics keep using reasons to hold these rallies that only relate to the consequences of the rally (rioting) last year. Even though they turned down early elections last year (that would have already happened) and walked away with nothing but causing pain for themselves and all the people of Thailand they continue to stage these events where they continue to get bolder and provoke police as they did last year. Do they really expect to see a different result? They are not using these rallies to get a message out .. they are using them to intimidate and inconvenience the country to get their way. Why are they not forced to pay for the added police presence as well as compensating those people and businesses that are effected by these constant gatherings? Ok, let them do it once but to do this nonsense every other week (or more) is excessive. I personally predict that they are going to get very bold this time around and may actually once again try to spur a revolution or cripple the government. Somebody should tell them before hand this only works in a country where the people want one. One can only imagine how well off these so called poor farmers would be if they used the resources they continue to waste on these gatherings to help advance their own lives. And even till today, none of their 'leaders' has given any speech, presentation etc., to give a detailed proposal, a detailed picture of what they would like to see, a structured workable plan for step by step change. None of their leaders, still, has even given a presentation about democracy, why democracy is good (or bad), how to build and sustain democracy, the resposnibility of all of the population to respect the law. Nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) Something just seems very wrong with the fact these lunatics keep using reasons to hold these rallies that only relate to the consequences of the rally (rioting) last year. Even though they turned down early elections last year (that would have already happened) and walked away with nothing but causing pain for themselves and all the people of Thailand they continue to stage these events where they continue to get bolder and provoke police as they did last year. Do they really expect to see a different result? They are not using these rallies to get a message out .. they are using them to intimidate and inconvenience the country to get their way. Why are they not forced to pay for the added police presence as well as compensating those people and businesses that are effected by these constant gatherings? Ok, let them do it once but to do this nonsense every other week (or more) is excessive. I personally predict that they are going to get very bold this time around and may actually once again try to spur a revolution or cripple the government. Somebody should tell them before hand this only works in a country where the people want one. One can only imagine how well off these so called poor farmers would be if they used the resources they continue to waste on these gatherings to help advance their own lives. And even till today, none of their 'leaders' has given any speech, presentation etc., to give a detailed proposal, a detailed picture of what they would like to see, a structured workable plan for step by step change. None of their leaders, still, has even given a presentation about democracy, why democracy is good (or bad), how to build and sustain democracy, the resposnibility of all of the population to respect the law. Nothing. Because their only plan is to get their political masters back in control of the gravy train. There is nothing beyond this thought out, since they blindly believe; put their bosses in power and manna will fall from heaven, for they and their friends.. Edited February 21, 2011 by animatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 The big question is ... what happened to the million paper birds? I might have missed it but I didn't read or see any pictures of their "release" by the "unprecedented" number of protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 The big question is ... what happened to the million paper birds? I might have missed it but I didn't read or see any pictures of their "release" by the "unprecedented" number of protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomTumTiger Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Arguing that one is more violent than the other is like arguing which egg is more egg-shaped. Only if one is trying to discount the violence of the historically much more violent Red Shirts. No, one group is only more visibly violent because the different governments at the time took different approaches; one through negotiation, the other sent in the Army to use force and live ammunition to disperse protesters. Had the Police/Army attempted to remove the yellow shirts from the airport things would have been much different I'm sure you'll agree. Weeks earlier when the Police tried to move the yellow shirts from Government House there were bloody clashes on the street. This of course was before the red shirts were even protesting! So don't kid us on that the yellows are not as violent or have no history of it. To answer someone else's question about paramilitary sections of the red and particularly the yellows support; the yellow have a large paramilitary arm which is mostly young to middle aged men. They were the ones responsible for the initial closing of the airport; they were armed with firearms and melee weapons, they have basic military/security/police training, wear masks, balaclavas and heavy clothing and went ahead of the larger group of protesters to seal off the roads, take over the airport's key areas and they even stormed the control tower (now denied but there's video evidence of this happening). I personally witnessed the closure of the airport and it wasn't old grannies with hand-clappers until the TV cameras arrived, much, much, much later on. Aren't you ignoring all the violence that occured before the Army finally moved in on the red shirts? Of course he is, that is what he does best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomTumTiger Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 So, Jatuporn's "Unprecedented Numbers" turned out to be about 10,000, a figure with lots of precedent. So, Jatuporn is, proven wrong once again. So case as this thread should be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokay Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 They seriously need to call it a wrap. They are just embarrassing themselves now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 They seriously need to call it a wrap. They are just embarrassing themselves now. They should have ended it after they refused the elections offered on public TV ... zero credibility after that. Then again since the object wasn't new elections, but apparently to force the government into spilling blood (under direct provocation) they got what they thought they wanted. Unlike any time in the past though ... this government survived after having to stop the reds in BKK through force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phiphidon Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 So, Jatuporn's "Unprecedented Numbers" turned out to be about 10,000, a figure with lots of precedent. So, Jatuporn is, proven wrong once again. So case as this thread should be I'm not going to get in a peeing contest with you over numbers but at least get somewhere near the right figures though I'm sure it suits the agenda to report low numbers. The Nation reported around 20,000 The Post reported Tens of Thousands Agence France Presse AFP reported Police estimations of 25,000 I'm fairly sure the number would be somewhere around there - I couldn't be bothered going for further examples. There were around 5000 at a rally in Khon Kaen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemini81 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 So, Jatuporn's "Unprecedented Numbers" turned out to be about 10,000, a figure with lots of precedent. So, Jatuporn is, proven wrong once again. So case as this thread should be I'm not going to get in a peeing contest with you over numbers but at least get somewhere near the right figures though I'm sure it suits the agenda to report low numbers. The Nation reported around 20,000 The Post reported Tens of Thousands Agence France Presse AFP reported Police estimations of 25,000 I'm fairly sure the number would be somewhere around there - I couldn't be bothered going for further examples. There were around 5000 at a rally in Khon Kaen. that's it huh? at least it is among the very few times they actually wear some new clothes that actually match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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