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Suvarnabhumi Named Fifth Best Airport


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Posted

Structurally the airport is good, a reasonable assortment of shops etc. Direction signs could be better displayed and too much walking for my liking, but this seems to be common to all airports.

What really lets the place down is the staff, not just immigration, although they seem to set the overall tone, even the duty free shops have surly staff.

It is an international airport, English is the International language, yet no one, including the airport police and immigration speak it.

LOL. Most passengers arriving aren't English so why shoudl the staff speak English? The immigration staff I've dealt with have always been able to speak basic englisg. I've never had a poblem communicating with them. You need to get over yourself and stop expecting the rest of the world to speak English. As China grows the use of English is likely to drop. It'sin most people's interest to learn some form of Chinese, not English.

Actually English is considered not only the internationally accepted language but also the official language for airlines. Every pilot (I believe even non-international) is required to speak and understand English though they certainly are able to communicate in their natural tongue if the staff and/or tower are comfortable with that but the official language is English.

As I have no doubt that business people learning Chinese may have a leg up on others ... the number of those learning Chinese are likely to drop as the number of Chinese continue to rapidly grow who speak English.

Wll guy, O.k. why should they speak English, because its convenient to speak 1 common language, so English is the option. you said why should the staff do that, as most passengers are not English--:lol: So all the staff have to do is speak mongolian/Japanese/Mandarin/ Indian/ german. Your remark is somewhat not thought out. Nisa hit the nail on the head. Why do you come accross as anti English ??

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Posted

Structurally the airport is good, a reasonable assortment of shops etc. Direction signs could be better displayed and too much walking for my liking, but this seems to be common to all airports.

What really lets the place down is the staff, not just immigration, although they seem to set the overall tone, even the duty free shops have surly staff.

It is an international airport, English is the International language, yet no one, including the airport police and immigration speak it.

LOL. Most passengers arriving aren't English so why shoudl the staff speak English? The immigration staff I've dealt with have always been able to speak basic englisg. I've never had a poblem communicating with them. You need to get over yourself and stop expecting the rest of the world to speak English. As China grows the use of English is likely to drop. It'sin most people's interest to learn some form of Chinese, not English.

Actually English is considered not only the internationally accepted language but also the official language for airlines. Every pilot (I believe even non-international) is required to speak and understand English though they certainly are able to communicate in their natural tongue if the staff and/or tower are comfortable with that but the official language is English.

As I have no doubt that business people learning Chinese may have a leg up on others ... the number of those learning Chinese are likely to drop as the number of Chinese continue to rapidly grow who speak English.

Wll guy, O.k. why should they speak English, because its convenient to speak 1 common language, so English is the option. you said why should the staff do that, as most passengers are not English--:lol: So all the staff have to do is speak mongolian/Japanese/Mandarin/ Indian/ german. Your remark is somewhat not thought out. Nisa hit the nail on the head. Why do you come accross as anti English ??

I'm not anti-English, as I was born in England and lived there most of my love and I love it there. But just because I'm English I don't expect the rest of the world to speak English. Yes, it may be more convenient for us English if the rest of the world spoke it, but perhaps they don't want to. It would be more convenient for Thais if most of the world spoke Thai. Yes, English is an international language, but that's no reason to force ALL immigration staff to speak it if they are dealing with Chinese people. There are immigration staff at all airports that I've been to that speak English. It's unrealistic to expect them to all speak English just to make life more convenient for you. If you are dealing with immigration staff that don't speak English you can request an English speaking person or request a translator. It's not all about making your life easier. There are other people to consider as well. That's not anti-English at all. I just think everyone, whatever nationality, deserves to be treated fairly. I don't think the English, myself included, deserve special treatment.

It seems to me that when foreigners got to England they don't complain that the staff don't speak German, French, Thai, Chinese or whatever else. But many English go abroad and expect others to make the effort for them. There are many expats in Thailand that don't even bother to learn Thai even though they live here. They still expect Thais to learn English. It's this that I don't understand and don't really have any time for.

Posted (edited)

1) Seoul Incheon (ICN)

2) Singapore (SIN)

3) Hong Kong (HKG)

4) Beijing (PEK)

5) Shanghai Pudong (PVG)

These airports are quality airports.

I have been to everyone of them and have been impressed with all.

The swamp isn't that far behind if they could get their act together.

What the swamp needs is a budget or low cost terminal, maybe even a separate domestic terminal.

You just have to separate the budget passengers from the long haul people.

I have a slightly better solution that I think will work quite well. Separate the whinging thaivisa expats from the other passengers.

Hey -thats a brilliant Idea, me and asiawatcher and the other whingers can go to Don muang International, and you carry on with the award winner. Then you can get fit with your walks--and spend all your money being ripped off

But isn't that the whole point? I go to an airport that I like and I live in a country that I like. But the whingers go to airports and countries that they don't like just so that they can whinge. If you think Don Muang is better and want to use it then that is great. I just don't understand why so many on here keep doing things that they don't like. Why do so many complain about so many things? You only get one life so it's best to make the most of it and enjoy yourself. So why live in a country that they hate and go to airports that they hate? Just saying.

Edited by w11guy
Posted

I'm not anti-English, as I was born in England and lived there most of my love and I love it there. But just because I'm English I don't expect the rest of the world to speak English. Yes, it may be more convenient for us English if the rest of the world spoke it, but perhaps they don't want to. It would be more convenient for Thais if most of the world spoke Thai. Yes, English is an international language, but that's no reason to force ALL immigration staff to speak it if they are dealing with Chinese people. There are immigration staff at all airports that I've been to that speak English. It's unrealistic to expect them to all speak English just to make life more convenient for you. If you are dealing with immigration staff that don't speak English you can request an English speaking person or request a translator. It's not all about making your life easier. There are other people to consider as well. That's not anti-English at all. I just think everyone, whatever nationality, deserves to be treated fairly. I don't think the English, myself included, deserve special treatment.

It seems to me that when foreigners got to England they don't complain that the staff don't speak German, French, Thai, Chinese or whatever else. But many English go abroad and expect others to make the effort for them. There are many expats in Thailand that don't even bother to learn Thai even though they live here. They still expect Thais to learn English. It's this that I don't understand and don't really have any time for.

I am guessing that there is some sort of rule for immigration to be required to have some English if not actually speak it but TIT and rules don't always mean a lot. It is just not a matter of English being the most common language among travelers and such but it literally is considered the International Language including in business and airports.

As for being from England ... do you guys even really understand each other in the various English dialects used there laugh.gif ... just kidding with you.

Posted

Also consider that every International flight you are on they do the announcements in English. I have only flown within a foreign country in the US and Thailand but can tell you that even on flights within Thailand they make the announcements in English too .. thought not always easy to understand.

Posted (edited)

Remember not long ago the Thai government admitted that three mafia groups control the airport. Not the government, nor the AOT and the Thai Police, who didn't even have a station at the airport, could stop the rampant corruption and scams that dominated the place.

I thought it was getting better, but alas no, I touched down in the early hours from Melbourne, Australia last month to be greeted by an ensemble of taxi touts and other undesirables in the arrivals area.

I wonder how many of the airports participating in the survey have been shut down with force by paramilitary groups then occupied by political protesters? Or have their Duty Free areas completely (and thus illegally) controlled by an allegedly corrupt entity that has escaped charges on account of who their friends in the current government are? Or have Excise officials randomly searching arriving passengers after the Customs areas where they harass and intimidate then extort those carrying excess duty free? Or have Police taking alleged shoplifters to remote hotels in attempts to extort them out of money? Or have armed gangs taking over the airport car-parks just metres away from where passengers are checking in, and Police completely powerless to stop them?

I'd warrant none of these other airports have as long, as tarnished or as disgraceful a record as Suvarnabhumi.

I didn't even bother to get into the actual flaws of the place, nor mention any of the massive corruption that was involved in its construction either.

Edited by Oberkommando
Posted

Without going through all the comments, then if I read it correctly, then Suvarnabhumi has the 5th highest capacity in the world and that is basically it. The sad thing is that immigration does not have the capacity to handle this.

Posted

Bangkok came 5th out of 13...

But there's only a small number of airports that handle over 40m passengers, so it's just a matter of working out who came below BKK.

Obviously,

- Heathrow, (Anyone who's been through will agree it's crap - apart from the Virgin Lounge).

- Charles De Gaulle (Never used it myself, but I know people who will choose to change at Heathrow rather than CDG, so it must be worse).

- Tokyo (It's not a BAD airport, but it's SO far out of Tokyo, and it closes down at night, so to catch the last flight of the day, you have to take a half-day off work, so I'm fairly sure people won't be happy when they're going through it and getting asked to fill in questionnaires.)

- Madrid (Again, I know people who will change at Heathrow rather than Madrid if they have the choice, so it can't be great).

- Atlanta, Denver, LAX, JFK, Chicago O'Hare... The other 5 airports in the US with over 40m passengers that Swampy didn't come behind. (Actually it's a bit of an indictment to come behind ANY US airport)

That's 9 airports of over 40m passengers that I'm pretty sure we'd all agree are behind Suvannabhumi. So the 5th place out of 13 makes a bit more sense...

I am wondering what happened to Schiphol though (Amsterdam airport). As I know personally that I'd rate it above Swampy. I can only assume it wasn't in the rankings, as they only covered 13 airports, so didn't cover all airports over 40m.

Posted

Airports Council International (ACI) has announced the winners of its annual Airport Service Quality (ASQ) awards for 2010.

The results are based on more than 300,000 passenger surveys completed at participating airports. According to ACI, the survey gives a picture of the entire passenger experience, from the moment of arrival at an airport to the departure gate.

The results help airports to identify areas for improvement and prioritise their investments.

The top five are all in the Asia Pacific region, with Seoul Incheon coming first for the sixth consecutive year.

Best Airpprts in the world : ACI Survey 

1. Seoul Incheon (ICN)

2. Singapore (SIN)

3. Hong Kong (HKG)

4. Beijing (PEK)

5. Shanghai Pudong (PVG)

 

Source

this list makes much more sense :)

Posted

I'm not anti-English, as I was born in England and lived there most of my love and I love it there. But just because I'm English I don't expect the rest of the world to speak English. Yes, it may be more convenient for us English if the rest of the world spoke it, but perhaps they don't want to. It would be more convenient for Thais if most of the world spoke Thai. Yes, English is an international language, but that's no reason to force ALL immigration staff to speak it if they are dealing with Chinese people. There are immigration staff at all airports that I've been to that speak English. It's unrealistic to expect them to all speak English just to make life more convenient for you. If you are dealing with immigration staff that don't speak English you can request an English speaking person or request a translator. It's not all about making your life easier. There are other people to consider as well. That's not anti-English at all. I just think everyone, whatever nationality, deserves to be treated fairly. I don't think the English, myself included, deserve special treatment.

It seems to me that when foreigners got to England they don't complain that the staff don't speak German, French, Thai, Chinese or whatever else. But many English go abroad and expect others to make the effort for them. There are many expats in Thailand that don't even bother to learn Thai even though they live here. They still expect Thais to learn English. It's this that I don't understand and don't really have any time for.

I am guessing that there is some sort of rule for immigration to be required to have some English if not actually speak it but TIT and rules don't always mean a lot. It is just not a matter of English being the most common language among travelers and such but it literally is considered the International Language including in business and airports.

As for being from England ... do you guys even really understand each other in the various English dialects used there laugh.gif ... just kidding with you.

It's no joke. If you are from the south of England you have no hope of understanding people from the north east. LOL. It's like they are from a different country.

Posted

Remember not long ago the Thai government admitted that three mafia groups control the airport. Not the government, nor the AOT and the Thai Police, who didn't even have a station at the airport, could stop the rampant corruption and scams that dominated the place.

I thought it was getting better, but alas no, I touched down in the early hours from Melbourne, Australia last month to be greeted by an ensemble of taxi touts and other undesirables in the arrivals area.

I wonder how many of the airports participating in the survey have been shut down with force by paramilitary groups then occupied by political protesters? Or have their Duty Free areas completely (and thus illegally) controlled by an allegedly corrupt entity that has escaped charges on account of who their friends in the current government are? Or have Excise officials randomly searching arriving passengers after the Customs areas where they harass and intimidate then extort those carrying excess duty free? Or have Police taking alleged shoplifters to remote hotels in attempts to extort them out of money? Or have armed gangs taking over the airport car-parks just metres away from where passengers are checking in, and Police completely powerless to stop them?

I'd warrant none of these other airports have as long, as tarnished or as disgraceful a record as Suvarnabhumi.

I didn't even bother to get into the actual flaws of the place, nor mention any of the massive corruption that was involved in its construction either.

Even if what you say is tue, these surveys are about what passengers think of different airports. Most people wouldn't come across this, so it woudn't be an issue. I'm sure that people who had extensibve knowledge of any airport could come up with a similar list. Try going to Heathrow or JFK. they are full of taxi touts. The police don't bother in either of them. If BKK is like what you say then it should be dealt with. But I've never seen this. It doesn't mean it's not true. But it means it didn't affect me and so my experiences there have been very good.

The survey isn't about political issues, corruption etc. It's about passenger experiences. So BKK is 5 out 13 of airports with over 40m people using them. Not great, but not as bad as some make out. If there's as much corruption in Thialnd as some on here claim then BKK airport should be congratulated for doing such a good job. If they can get the airport to run this smoothly among all the corruption, then at least they are doing something right.

Posted (edited)

Bangkok came 5th out of 13...

But there's only a small number of airports that handle over 40m passengers, so it's just a matter of working out who came below BKK.

Obviously,

- Heathrow, (Anyone who's been through will agree it's crap - apart from the Virgin Lounge).

- Charles De Gaulle (Never used it myself, but I know people who will choose to change at Heathrow rather than CDG, so it must be worse).

- Tokyo (It's not a BAD airport, but it's SO far out of Tokyo, and it closes down at night, so to catch the last flight of the day, you have to take a half-day off work, so I'm fairly sure people won't be happy when they're going through it and getting asked to fill in questionnaires.)

- Madrid (Again, I know people who will change at Heathrow rather than Madrid if they have the choice, so it can't be great).

- Atlanta, Denver, LAX, JFK, Chicago O'Hare... The other 5 airports in the US with over 40m passengers that Swampy didn't come behind. (Actually it's a bit of an indictment to come behind ANY US airport)

That's 9 airports of over 40m passengers that I'm pretty sure we'd all agree are behind Suvannabhumi. So the 5th place out of 13 makes a bit more sense...

I am wondering what happened to Schiphol though (Amsterdam airport). As I know personally that I'd rate it above Swampy. I can only assume it wasn't in the rankings, as they only covered 13 airports, so didn't cover all airports over 40m.

Also wondering about McCarran in Las Vegas. I'm pretty sure it passed 40m passengers back in 2009.

Edit: Google search to the rescue. Passenger numbers at McCarran were down to less than 40m in 2010.

Edited by grin
Posted

I'm not anti-English, as I was born in England and lived there most of my love and I love it there. But just because I'm English I don't expect the rest of the world to speak English. Yes, it may be more convenient for us English if the rest of the world spoke it, but perhaps they don't want to. It would be more convenient for Thais if most of the world spoke Thai. Yes, English is an international language, but that's no reason to force ALL immigration staff to speak it if they are dealing with Chinese people. There are immigration staff at all airports that I've been to that speak English. It's unrealistic to expect them to all speak English just to make life more convenient for you. If you are dealing with immigration staff that don't speak English you can request an English speaking person or request a translator. It's not all about making your life easier. There are other people to consider as well. That's not anti-English at all. I just think everyone, whatever nationality, deserves to be treated fairly. I don't think the English, myself included, deserve special treatment.

It seems to me that when foreigners got to England they don't complain that the staff don't speak German, French, Thai, Chinese or whatever else. But many English go abroad and expect others to make the effort for them. There are many expats in Thailand that don't even bother to learn Thai even though they live here. They still expect Thais to learn English. It's this that I don't understand and don't really have any time for.

I am guessing that there is some sort of rule for immigration to be required to have some English if not actually speak it but TIT and rules don't always mean a lot. It is just not a matter of English being the most common language among travelers and such but it literally is considered the International Language including in business and airports.

As for being from England ... do you guys even really understand each other in the various English dialects used there laugh.gif ... just kidding with you.

It's no joke. If you are from the south of England you have no hope of understanding people from the north east. LOL. It's like they are from a different country.

Nisa, your reply from the English guy...re no joke--is a joke---a most rediculous statement, we have our dialects, I,m from the north, worked for government-and the top hotel in London, I dealt with all the dialects, as Thai do here. again you were right re, English spoken for the sake of much confusion-as Thai police revert to it with foreigners. ..No one ever suggested that they must speak english at the airport. Its just easier that way. I dont want to push my language on to others that dont want it. and do not expect that....Just a further point, when I meet europeans in thailand of different languages, they insist on english so we all can confir. It would be very difficult to speak German if there was a gang of europeans. so my point is its not easier for me--its easier for the majority

Posted

I'm not anti-English, as I was born in England and lived there most of my love and I love it there. But just because I'm English I don't expect the rest of the world to speak English. Yes, it may be more convenient for us English if the rest of the world spoke it, but perhaps they don't want to. It would be more convenient for Thais if most of the world spoke Thai. Yes, English is an international language, but that's no reason to force ALL immigration staff to speak it if they are dealing with Chinese people. There are immigration staff at all airports that I've been to that speak English. It's unrealistic to expect them to all speak English just to make life more convenient for you. If you are dealing with immigration staff that don't speak English you can request an English speaking person or request a translator. It's not all about making your life easier. There are other people to consider as well. That's not anti-English at all. I just think everyone, whatever nationality, deserves to be treated fairly. I don't think the English, myself included, deserve special treatment.

It seems to me that when foreigners got to England they don't complain that the staff don't speak German, French, Thai, Chinese or whatever else. But many English go abroad and expect others to make the effort for them. There are many expats in Thailand that don't even bother to learn Thai even though they live here. They still expect Thais to learn English. It's this that I don't understand and don't really have any time for.

I am guessing that there is some sort of rule for immigration to be required to have some English if not actually speak it but TIT and rules don't always mean a lot. It is just not a matter of English being the most common language among travelers and such but it literally is considered the International Language including in business and airports.

As for being from England ... do you guys even really understand each other in the various English dialects used there laugh.gif ... just kidding with you.

Nisa, all english people understand each other in gereral-some words vary as some tones are different. Example the U.S.A. English is understandable, as its a sort of dialect/way of speaking as in north and south england. Sometimes it helps Thais to speak more English with us, a very small percentage of Europeans speak Thai, other europeans say they can be understood more when speaking to Thais-if they speak English. I could have said northerners cannot understand southerners in England but I would be telling lies....in my village here in Issan.. I can smile when I hear the local farmers speaking some English to me--I think its great-and they love it.

Posted

Have a look at today's Bangkok Post. The Airports Council International survey of "airport popularity" shows that Suvarnabhumi has dropped to #45 and blames the drop on long waits at immigration.

Posted

Have a look at today's Bangkok Post. The Airports Council International survey of "airport popularity" shows that Suvarnabhumi has dropped to #45 and blames the drop on long waits at immigration.

well well well, The A.C.Int Survey, says what most posters speak. And why we speak is easy enough, the dissadvantages outweigh the advantages. This is not knocking Swampy?greenhouse, its speaking of true experiences encountered. When a poster said he had never seen any touts-or been approached by any, and even mentioned no other problems had he ever noticed. He must be getting paid to say it. These posters who air their problems, are the people who actually improve the airport, by the complaint. as in any other business. Customer service doing their job report things to management, who in turn gain from the feedback.

Posted

Is this topic a flame or a troll or something?

Maybe 5th best in Thailand - remotely possible.

Ha Ha.:lol: :lol: . so andrew you must have encountered 1 or even 2 probs at Swampy....:lol: :lol:

Posted

A bit more graft and they can be number one next year,what a laugh :cheesy::cheesy::cheesy:

Yes, you are right – What a laugh

Did all these millions spend on doing these worldwide surveys improved the lives of the working stiffs. Of curse not. It gave a bunch of nitwits related to other nitwits and related to other nitwits all in the know a job for a year with all expenses paid including hotels, meals, golfing, limousines, flying up front or upper deck first class, on-and-on the perks go. Talk about graft, the world is by now so deeply buried in graft that there is no hope, ever, to rid the world of graft. So no need to worry about Global Warming, the human race is by now full speed ahead in the process of destroying itself, the same as the races of past history destroyed them selves. Incas, Khmers, the ones that build Borobudur in Java, to name some of the civilizations of old that destroyed them selves through greed and mismanagement of the natural environment.

Posted

Is this topic a flame or a troll or something?

Maybe 5th best in Thailand - remotely possible.

Ha Ha.:lol: :lol: . so andrew you must have encountered 1 or even 2 probs at Swampy....:lol: :lol:

Yes I have. "1 or even 2 probs at Swampy" per month. Per week when my kharmic thingy is listing.

But I still love Thailand. jap.gif

Posted

so Suvarnabhumi is officially tamada.

That's hardly something to have a strong opinion about.

"tamada"? Sorry if I missed something earlier.

Posted

<snip>

Are they trying to say that this swampy is better than Dubai.

<snip>

No, they're not.

The top four are in Hong Kong, Beijing, Dubai and Dallas.

Sorry Whybother, :lol: I must be senile, was a mistake. I meant Abu Dhabi, which is in my opinion super compared to swampy. What about all the other fabulous airports in the world that hadn't a look in.---- I mentioned it because of its nomination. In shock again at this vote.The airport here is O.K. its the mafias that control it. My point was whoever voted for it, did it without taking into account of it,s (activities) !!!!!

Yep! it never ceases to amaze me. Best airport, best beaches, best city, best hotel and so on ..................According to surveys, Thailand is always up there in the top half dozen ????

Posted

so Suvarnabhumi is officially tamada.

That's hardly something to have a strong opinion about.

"tamada"? Sorry if I missed something earlier.

Is that American for ..Tomato ?????:lol: :lol: Ive been repeating the word, but cannot ---well maybe I,m ting tong

Posted

so Suvarnabhumi is officially tamada.

That's hardly something to have a strong opinion about.

"tamada"? Sorry if I missed something earlier.

5th out of 13 = tamada in my book

Posted

so Suvarnabhumi is officially tamada.

That's hardly something to have a strong opinion about.

"tamada"? Sorry if I missed something earlier.

5th out of 13 = tamada in my book

I.m told I'm a nice person but a bit slow - what does "tamada" mean?

Posted

This means that Swampy is the 5th best airport in the world that handles over 40 million passnegers, correct? Christ on a bike, those from 6th place and below must be pretty awful. I'm sure the reason it reached over 40 million in 2010 was all the people who wanted to leave once the riots began.

One word - restaurants. After you've passed through immigration where are they? I spend half of my life at that place because of work and the immigration cues must be up amongst the top 5 worst in the world. Not to mention the smiley, happy, welcoming faces of the Immigration clerks at the arrivals desks. Behind the USA they have to be the most miserable and least welcoming!

Who votes for these things??

After you have passed through immigration, you just take the escalator back up to the 2nd floor. There are 10 plus restaurants up there. Or, if you prefer 50 baht dishes, go to the food court on the ground level, on the extreme end of the terminal(same end the international flights come in on). That is where all of the Thais, and the air crews eat. Great food, at great Thai prices.

Great bit of info Mike, thanks, normally i don't eat at the normal restaurants, i hate the feeling of being ripped off !

Posted

Without going through all the comments, then if I read it correctly, then Suvarnabhumi has the 5th highest capacity in the world and that is basically it. The sad thing is that immigration does not have the capacity to handle this.

No. It's not about capacity. Schipol had 45 mil pax and came in behind Suvvie.

Posted (edited)

This means that Swampy is the 5th best airport in the world that handles over 40 million passnegers, correct? Christ on a bike, those from 6th place and below must be pretty awful. I'm sure the reason it reached over 40 million in 2010 was all the people who wanted to leave once the riots began.

One word - restaurants. After you've passed through immigration where are they? I spend half of my life at that place because of work and the immigration cues must be up amongst the top 5 worst in the world. Not to mention the smiley, happy, welcoming faces of the Immigration clerks at the arrivals desks. Behind the USA they have to be the most miserable and least welcoming!

Who votes for these things??

After you have passed through immigration, you just take the escalator back up to the 2nd floor. There are 10 plus restaurants up there. Or, if you prefer 50 baht dishes, go to the food court on the ground level, on the extreme end of the terminal(same end the international flights come in on). That is where all of the Thais, and the air crews eat. Great food, at great Thai prices.

Great bit of info Mike, thanks, normally i don't eat at the normal restaurants, i hate the feeling of being ripped off !

Just to clarify - that's after you have passed through ARRIVAL immigration, into the main airport terminal. The food court is at the far left end of the main hall (facing towards doors out of the airport). There is very little signage for the food court, no doubt because they would much rather herd all the tourists into the expensive second floor restaurants.

if you have passed through DEPARTURE immigration, the restaurant selection is dismal.

Edited by bubba

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