Developer In Trouble!

[olsen]

I am a broker and a developer and I got a problem with a client. Let´s call him Mr. X. I know I should´ve probably reported him to the police and sued him long time ago, but my wife disagree with me, because she don´t want any problems and likes the quiet life here in LOS. She is Thai (which might explain how she sees things).

I would like to have some comments and suggestions to this one:

This is the story and the facts I am able to prove with the more than 100 emails I got from Mr. X.

1. Mr. X contact us and he purchase land from us.

2. Mr. X want us to build his house.

3. Mr. X want to buy architect drawings from another architect, because they're cheaper. Price is around 45,000 THB. They also offer to build the house for around 2 million THB. We offer Mr. X the architect drawings at a discounted price and he accept to use us.

4. Mr. X and our company sign a construction contract.

5. Shortly after Mr. X starts arguing with me because I tell him that he must pay for carport/garage himself because that is not included in the architect drawings, and the contract states that we only build what is stated in the architect drawings.

6. Mr. X starts quarrelling but I ask Mr. X, why he sign the contract where it is clearly stated that we build ALL that is shown in the architect drawings? Because in the architect drawings there is NO carport! NO garage! But Mr. X still signed! Mr. X argue that the contract was only in English and not in Thai. But Mr. X do not read or speak Thai!

7. Finally Mr. X email me and say OK WE STICK TO THE CONTRACT, and from now on Mr. X´s wife and my wife will do the dealings, because Mr. X says he gets irritated because I am too stubborn. And Mr. X also tells me about his friend coming to Khanom and wanting to buy land and build house, BUT NOT WITH MY COMPANY! Already at THIS point June 23, 2010, I knew that Mr. X would do anything possible to bring me in trouble. He wanted REVENGE! He wanted to slander, badmouth and harass me and just make my life a hell as far as possible no matter what!

8. Shortly after in July 2010 I get some very offending and harassing emails from someone calling himself Ole Christian Back. Very pathetic, stupid and childish emails. I very soon found out that Mr. X was the one sending these emails, coz I tracked the ISP to the resort where Mr. X lives. So I faced him with the facts that I knew Mr. X was Ole Christian Back. Then the emails from this fake person stopped, but soon Mr. X took over using his real name and real email address.

9. In August Mr. X email me that he ads a warning about us at an international website and forum.

10. Mr. X adds lies and defamation about me, my wife and our company to his website both in English and Norwegian language and call us brainless swindlers and also call me mental sick and warn people about using our service.

11. Later in August 2010 Mr. X email me that he has reported me to the Danish authorities for working in Thailand while I receive a Government pension. Now I know that he really wants to ruin me and my Thai family's life!

12. In September 2010 Mr. X adds my photo, my employee´s photo and my logo to his own website and starts defaming us and warning people against us. I ask him to remove it or I will report him to the police for defamation and slander. Also I ask him to read the Computer Crime Act, where it is clearly stated that showing off a person´s photo was a criminal offence.

13. Mr. X do not remove the content from his website, so I tell him, then we will dismiss the construction contract with him unless he removes the content from his website.

14. In the meantime Mr. X starts sending me email threats like "Soon it´s pay-back time!" and "I am gonna beat the shit out of you".

15. In November, after several threats reporting Mr. X to the police, he removes the content and we continue the construction of his house.

16. Now Mr. X starts sending me emails from different email addresses and act like he is a potential new client, just to waste my time. But I soon find out that Mr. X is faking those emails, so I just stop replying.

17. Also Mr. X registers different email addresses containing my name and my company name and starts sending emails to people, harassing them using my name to bring me in trouble.

18. In November and December 2010 Mr. X says he want to sue me for delay in construction. I tell him, fine, fine just go ahead. The delay in construction is because of your childish behaviour and due to bad weather condition.

19. Later in December Mr. X says he do not want to pay us anymore money for the construction, but he want to deal directly with our contractor. I say fine, but if you do that, then you break the contract and we will dismiss the construction contract with you, then you are on your own and welcome to deal directly with our builders.

20. I tell Mr. X that we could sue him for breaking the contract but that we don´t want to bother more with him, so we agree to dismiss the contract.

21. In January Mr. X regret his decision and want to deal with us again and pay money directly to us, but we refuse and ask him to deal with the builder himself and leave us out of it.

Edited February 19, 2011 by olsen

[InterestedObserver]

The threats and abusive e-mails aside, your company and Mr. X had a construction contract for a house which, by mutual agreement, was canceled. I hope that you got what was owed you to date. You are better off without Mr. X as a client. End of story.

Edited February 19, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[olsen]

Yeah....but now Mr. X says he never agreed to dismissing the construction agreement....and we never signed a dismissal agreement, but I have all the emails from him stating the facts.....

[olsen]

BTW...I forgot to mention that in the contract was stated that we offered Mr. X 1 year 100% warranty on all construction.

A week after signing Mr. X complains about the warranty and says 1 year is too bad. He want more!

I ask him why he sign the contract then?

But I agree to sign a new contract with him, and he gets 2 years warranty on all electrical and plumbing, 5 years on all the walls and 10 years on the roof.

I do this to make him happy, but he don´t even say Thank You, seems he was expecting this, even he already signed the first contract with us!

[InterestedObserver]

Yeah....but now Mr. X says he never agreed to dismissing the construction agreement....and we never signed a dismissal agreement, but I have all the emails from him stating the facts.....

Tell Mr. X the contract has been canceled by mutual consent. You have the e-mails as proof, don't you? Have nothing more to do with him. If Mr. X does not agree with this, let him sue your company. You in return will sue him for defamation.

[mallyrd]

This is a no win win situation for both parties.

[olsen]

Yeah....but now Mr. X says he never agreed to dismissing the construction agreement....and we never signed a dismissal agreement, but I have all the emails from him stating the facts.....

Tell Mr. X the contract has been canceled by mutual consent. You have the e-mails as proof, don't you? Have nothing more to do with him. If Mr. X does not agree with this, let him sue your company. You in return will sue him for defamation.

Exactly what I´ve already told Mr. X. I can prove everything by our email correspondance! A reason why I ALWAYS deal by email to secure proof of what has been said and what has not been said.

Thanks for the input :-)

[olsen]

This is a no win win situation for both parties.

Yup, it´s a lose/lose situation. Sad story....but I guess that´s what happens sometimes doing business in Thailand....and all other countries for that sake

[Lite Beer]

A post giving seriously illegal advised has been removed.

[dave111223]

Contract is over, so you can now just ignore the guy and move on.

If i were you I'd just have no further contact with him (ignore any email that you suspect are from him etc..) and just forget about the whole thing.

After while he will be pissed off at someone else and devote his free time and website to defaming them instead.

Trying to sue him etc... will only motivate him further...ignore him is the best route.

[InterestedObserver]

The construction contract having been canceled by mutual agreement, what happens to the actual land involved? Who is the land (chanote) owner now and whose name is on the building permit?

[powderpuff]

Lucky you to be rid of the psycho. Avoid further contact. As stated above he'll soon find someone else to stalk & obsess over

[gregb]

Emails don't mean anything. Neither do verbal agreements.

I hope you got a signed document from Mr. X acknowledging the termination of the contract. Otherwise, you still have a contract with him, he can take you to court, and he will prevail.

I would suggest if you don't have a signature on a written document that says the contract is cancelled, that you consider either capitulating again to Mr. X, or else visiting a lawyer and seeing how you can resolve this mess.

Without a signed document, you don't sound like you are in a good position.

[clinique]

Agreed with gregb. Emails are not PROOF nor are they contractual and in many places not acceptable in court because they can be altered/tampered with by other than the sender. Or in fact they could be sent by anyone using the senders email address.

For avoidance of doubt and for your own peice of mind a Signed cancellation of contract from X is required.

[InterestedObserver]

"Later in December Mr. X says he do not want to pay us anymore money for the construction, but he want to deal directly with our contractor. I say fine, but if you do that, then you break the contract and we will dismiss the construction contract with you, then you are on your own and welcome to deal directly with our builders."

From the Civil and Commercial Code:

Section 389. If performance becomes wholly or party impossible by a cause attributable to the debtor, the creditor may rescind the contract.

[clinique]

"Later in December Mr. X says he do not want to pay us anymore money for the construction, but he want to deal directly with our contractor. I say fine, but if you do that, then you break the contract and we will dismiss the construction contract with you, then you are on your own and welcome to deal directly with our builders."

From the Civil and Commercial Code:

Section 389. If performance becomes wholly or party impossible by a cause attributable to the debtor, the creditor may rescind the contract.

OK. well noted. Thx.

[olsen]

The construction contract having been canceled by mutual agreement, what happens to the actual land involved? Who is the land (chanote) owner now and whose name is on the building permit?

Mr. X and his Thai wife´s name is on the building permit, so no problems here. They can continue finishing the house.

[olsen]

"Later in December Mr. X says he do not want to pay us anymore money for the construction, but he want to deal directly with our contractor. I say fine, but if you do that, then you break the contract and we will dismiss the construction contract with you, then you are on your own and welcome to deal directly with our builders."

From the Civil and Commercial Code:

Section 389. If performance becomes wholly or party impossible by a cause attributable to the debtor, the creditor may rescind the contract.

OK. well noted. Thx.

That´s also what my lawyer says, so the emails should be enough proof that Mr. X broke the contract and hence we dismissed it.

Now I will just follow these advise and ignore Mr. X, and if he somehow sue me, then we will take action ans sue him too for breaking the contract, defaming us and probably cost us quite a few clients with his slander!

The defamation alone posting my photo on his website is a criminal act and will give him a fine up to 60,000 THB or 3 years in jail OR both!

So if he is clecer he just close the case here and now. Else it will cost him dearly, since Thailand don´t want criminals here, so he will be deported and blacklisted!

[dave111223]

That´s also what my lawyer says, so the emails should be enough proof that Mr. X broke the contract and hence we dismissed it.

Now I will just follow these advise and ignore Mr. X, and if he somehow sue me, then we will take action ans sue him too for breaking the contract, defaming us and probably cost us quite a few clients with his slander!

The defamation alone posting my photo on his website is a criminal act and will give him a fine up to 60,000 THB or 3 years in jail OR both!

So if he is clecer he just close the case here and now. Else it will cost him dearly, since Thailand don´t want criminals here, so he will be deported and blacklisted!

I wouldn't think he'll have much luck trying to sue you when he tells his lawyer he's only willing to pay him half the agreed retainer.

[InterestedObserver]

Has Mr.X received fair value for any money paid to you and/or the building contractor while under contract? Mr. X must receive a refund for any services not rendered. You cannot penalize him just because the contract fell apart. To do otherwise invites a court case.

[olsen]

Has Mr.X received fair value for any money paid to you and/or the building contractor while under contract? Mr. X must receive a refund for any services not rendered. You cannot penalize him just because the contract fell apart. To do otherwise invites a court case.

Mr. X agreed to pay installments upfront before we did any work on the house. Everything he has paid for has been done.

When Mr. X decided to "go his own way" and pay and deal with the builder directly, he broke the contract and hence we dismissed it and we´re in my opinion out of this.

Now Mr. X refuses to pay the builder the agreed amount (he did a deal with the builder) and then the builder says if he don´t pay, the builder will remove the doors, windows and electric cable, since Mr. X don´t want to pay more than 50%.

Mr. X now demands that I take over again and take care of the builder, but I have refused and told him that he is on his own now, as he already told me by email that he wanted it like this.

[Tatsujin]

Sounds like you have a typical pain-in-the-ass client I'm afraid to say, those that think they can do and say anything and you have to go along with it.

He doesn't have a leg to stand on if your posting is accurate and a good Lawyer should be able to put him in his place pretty sharpish.

If I was you, I'd also be pursuing the slander/defamation which is illegal here and if you can show a Lawyer/Police what is currently online, or has been emailed to you, they'll easily be able to track this to him and rake him over the coals for it. Having helped a Thai friend who was in a kind of similar situation with regards threats/blackmail, the Police are actually quite good and the Legal system can be surprisingly effective.

BTW > I might have missed it, but is "Mr X" a Thai?

[Tatsujin]

Agreed with gregb. Emails are not PROOF nor are they contractual and in many places not acceptable in court because they can be altered/tampered with by other than the sender. Or in fact they could be sent by anyone using the senders email address.

For avoidance of doubt and for your own peice of mind a Signed cancellation of contract from X is required.

Rubbish . . . emails are very easily traceable (with a little effort and access to the ISP's records) and have hidden unique attributes in the headers etc that can be traced to prove where, when and from who it was originally posted.

A signed contract IS preferable, but email correspondence is also acceptable in a Court of Law if the Judge agrees and if the necessary "tracking" of the information in the headers has been performed adequately.

[InterestedObserver]

Still not clear who owns the land the house is being built on and has Mr. X secured a 30 year lease or usufruct?

Edited February 20, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[olsen]

Tatsujin - Yes, for sure Mr. X is a Pain-In-The-Ass-client....He is not Thai, but Norwegian.....he has complained about almost everything.... he is so convinced that I cheat him because I didn´t agree to build the carport included in the price....and that´s probably the reason for all this shit! He had plenty of time to read and understand the English contract...and I asked him several times if he had read and understood and he agreed to this. He spent 2 days in my office together with my architect going trough the drawings before we signed the contract.

InterestedObserver - Mr. X´s Thai wife owns the land. Dunno if he also have a lease or usufruct on the land, as it is actually not my concern.

[HeavyDrinker]

Rubbish . . . emails are very easily traceable (with a little effort and access to the ISP's records) and have hidden unique attributes in the headers etc that can be traced to prove where, when and from who it was originally posted.

Rubbish! Emails are inadmissible as evidence as is any unsigned or unwitnessed document.

[olsen]

Regarding suing Mr. X, I have all the screenshots from his website showing my photo, my logo and my staff´s photo. So even he already removed this stuff, I can still prove it to both the police and the court.

Furthermore I stumbled over a thread in this ThaiVisa forum where someone with only 1 post used my company name as his log-in name. Here he wrote a lot of s.h.i.t. about HIMSELF, and I take it was a way to bring ME in a bad light....I KNOW it was him, because only Mr. X knew about these things he wrote about and I actually asked for support at ThaiVisa to get his ISP address etc. but was told I needed the court to write a permission, but that anyone actually can register at ThaiVisa and use a fake name which is impossible to track due to proxy servers...I don´t know what all this means, but I am quite sure I can get him sentenced by the court trying to bring me in a bad light....I have screenshots of this thread he wrote, even ThaiVisa removed it quickly and banned the user.

[olsen]

Rubbish . . . emails are very easily traceable (with a little effort and access to the ISP's records) and have hidden unique attributes in the headers etc that can be traced to prove where, when and from who it was originally posted.

Rubbish! Emails are inadmissible as evidence as is any unsigned or unwitnessed document.

Really??? So what about the screenshots I have from his website? I also have the Who-Is info about his web domain and here he is clearly stated as the owner.

At least that should give me what I need to sue him for defamation and libel, no?

Regarding Mr.X´s emails - Already from the beginning of the case he used his private Gmail account, and he used this same address during this whole process.....and he signed with his own name according to his passport. I don´t need to use the emails he sent from some fake name address...I only need to use those emails with his name on it.....will that change the situation?

[Tatsujin]

Rubbish! Emails are inadmissible as evidence as is any unsigned or unwitnessed document.

I look forward to seeing you in Court one day then if your only defence is that they are NOT admissible, when in reality they are . . . if you know anything about Law you would know you are wrong.

As stated before, any email correspondence IS admissible under the Law here in Thailand as well as UK/USA but as with ALL evidence, is is up to the presiding Judge to determine what is and is not admissible. I know, I've been involved peripherally in cases where this has happened here in Thailand.

The emails in question would have to be traced/tracked by a certified legal body (the Police basically or a Forensics Lab) and if the information obtained is relevant to the case they can be admitted in to Court.

Just for you HD > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_evidence - I know it's relating to US law specifically, but the same applies here in Thailand.

(Reason for edit: add link)

Edited February 20, 2011 by Tatsujin

[Tatsujin]

Really??? So what about the screenshots I have from his website? I also have the Who-Is info about his web domain and here he is clearly stated as the owner.

At least that should give me what I need to sue him for defamation and libel, no?

Regarding Mr.X´s emails - Already from the beginning of the case he used his private Gmail account, and he used this same address during this whole process.....and he signed with his own name according to his passport. I don´t need to use the emails he sent from some fake name address...I only need to use those emails with his name on it.....will that change the situation?

Any of this information would have to be independently verified by both your own Lawyers and the Police. The sooner you start legal action and get the Police involved, the sooner they can can start tracking/tracing the emails and website information you mentioned. Once your Lawyers or the Police have seen the information live on the website, they would then become witnesses to the effect that the information posted WAS there even if it is later removed.

It's worth mentioning also that (again from personal experience) if the person removes the material from the website, it is STILL possible to prove legally what WAS there using various methods that are not so difficult to do.