Developer In Trouble!

[clinique]

So lets see the cases or docket numbers of the cases that have been decided on email evidence.

[olsen]

My lawyer says that the court will accept email as evidence if it is verified that the emails are genuine. So the police will contact the ISP to get it verified.

My lawyer says that the burden of proof is on Mr. X to prove that he did NOT send those emails....!!!

At least I can prove that I received the emails from Mr. X. So if Mr. X do not lie in court, then I have a good case!!

Regarding the defamation part, my lawyer says I can report Mr. X to the police and hand over all evidence in verified translations into Thai language. Then they will take action against him and bring the case to the public prosecutor who will decide whether there is a case or not. My lawyer is sure Mr. X will end up in court and be punished, at least he will be prosecuted breaking the Thai Computer Crime Act by publishing my photo on his public website.

Also my lawyer tells me I can sue Mr. X for compensation. The amount depends on our current profit and how many clients Mr. X have "cost me".

[HeavyDrinker]

My lawyer says that the burden of proof is on Mr. X to prove that he did NOT send those emails...

Then change lawyers.

Burden of proof lies with whoever is using the evidence (i.e. you) and not vice versa.

Your legal team have to be able to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that MrX sent the emails (which is impossible).

IP addresses do not prove the person accused wrote the email. Proving anyone wrote an email is impossible. It's that simple really.

I will state this once more you are completely and utterly wrong. I think you should not state such things on forums to mis-lead. I am actually at this very time persueing a legal solution based on admissible e-mail evidence and a lot of it.

Well you will not win if all the 'evidence' you have is emails. I'm not misleading anyone here. It's just a fact.

Come back here after your case and let us know how it went but I somehow doubt you will.

Then your reading skills are as bad as your comprehension and understanding of the Law

Well your inventive skills must be good for I can find no mention of you being involved in any court case on this thread apart from on the 'periphery', which means the Public Gallery to me...

Edited February 25, 2011 by HeavyDrinker

[Sunbelt Asia]

You need to check your initial contract to determine how it was agreed that notification of termination would be made. The standard is generally that written notification of termination (not an email) is required. Emails can only be used as a supporting document in this case. However, if you agreed to a phase by phase payment on work his refusal to pay for work agreed to in the original contract on schedule as required would be considered a breach of contract on Mr X's part.

For defamation/libel: you would need to print the screen which has all the wordings, comments and pictures. Then report to the webmaster to the remove the defamatory content. If not removed, you would then need to make a police report (แจ้งความ – jang kwam) and show the printed article to support your claim. It would now be the police’s duty to press charges against him. This is also in violation of the Criminal Act (Section 326) which stated that “Whoever imputes anything to the other person before a third person in a manner likely to impair the reputation of such other person or to expose such other person to hatred contempt is said to commit defamation. The penalty for such offence are imprisonment not exceeding one year or fine not exceeding twenty thousand baht or both”.

In regard to the threats: print out the emails and make a police report, this process would be different to above mentioned procedure where the police would record this report onto their daily incident report and, if something happened to you the person who sent the email would be treated as a suspect.

http://www.sunbeltlegaladvisors.com

[huawei]

My lawyer says that the burden of proof is on Mr. X to prove that he did NOT send those emails...

Then change lawyers.

Burden of proof lies with whoever is using the evidence (i.e. you) and not vice versa.

Your legal team have to be able to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that MrX sent the emails (which is impossible).

IP addresses do not prove the person accused wrote the email. Proving anyone wrote an email is impossible. It's that simple really.

I will state this once more you are completely and utterly wrong. I think you should not state such things on forums to mis-lead. I am actually at this very time persueing a legal solution based on admissible e-mail evidence and a lot of it.

Well you will not win if all the 'evidence' you have is emails. I'm not misleading anyone here. It's just a fact.

Come back here after your case and let us know how it went but I somehow doubt you will.

Then your reading skills are as bad as your comprehension and understanding of the Law

Well your inventive skills must be good for I can find no mention of you being involved in any court case on this thread apart from on the 'periphery', which means the Public Gallery to me...

of course i will come back and tell everyone how it went.Why wouldn't i?, abit presumptious!.If only to explain what the outcome was and whether e-mail admissible evidence helped.Isn't that what forums are for to assist people. No more comments on this from me.I have known my lawyer and his associates since 1995, if they say it is admissible then it is, and again who said it was the only evidence again abit presumptious!

[Sunbelt Asia]

You need to check your initial contract to determine how it was agreed that notification of termination would be made. The standard is generally that written notification of termination (not an email) is required. Emails can only be used as a supporting document in this case. However, if you agreed to a phase by phase payment on work his refusal to pay for work agreed to in the original contract on schedule as required would be considered a breach of contract on Mr X's part.

For defamation/libel: you would need to print the screen which has all the wordings, comments and pictures. Then report to the webmaster to the remove the defamatory content. If not removed, you would then need to make a police report (แจ้งความ – jang kwam) and show the printed article to support your claim. It would now be the police’s duty to press charges against him. This is also in violation of the Criminal Act (Section 326) which stated that “Whoever imputes anything to the other person before a third person in a manner likely to impair the reputation of such other person or to expose such other person to hatred contempt is said to commit defamation. The penalty for such offence are imprisonment not exceeding one year or fine not exceeding twenty thousand baht or both”.

In regard to the threats: print out the emails and make a police report, this process would be different to above mentioned procedure where the police would record this report onto their daily incident report and, if something happened to you the person who sent the email would be treated as a suspect.

http://www.sunbeltlegaladvisors.com

[HeavyDrinker]

Emails can only be used as a supporting document in this case

Tatsujin?

[Kananga]

Emails can only be used as a supporting document in this case

Tatsujin?

He must be watching another re-run of Law and Order.

[HeavyDrinker]

People like him make me shit.

He assumes I'm a 'weekend warrior' not even pausing for thought as to what I may do for a living...

Typical 'barstool expert' exposed and probably a liar too. All this <deleted> about him being 'involved' in court cases....mwhahah hahahaha hahaha.

[powderpuff]

This is what TV is good for. Petty bickering.

Heavy Drinker. Great name and very apropos I suspect. Welcome to TV noobie.

Edited February 26, 2011 by powderpuff

[HeavyDrinker]

This is what TV is good for. Petty bickering.

You seem very good at it.

In fact I have done the OP a service as now he knows that email is not admissible in a Court of Law so maybe he can get some decent legal advice.

Thank you for your invaluable input. I'm sure everyone appreciates it.

[Kananga]

This is what TV is good for. Petty bickering.

You seem very good at it.

In fact I have done the OP a service as now he knows that email is not admissible in a Court of Law so maybe he can get some decent legal advice.

Thank you for your invaluable input. I'm sure everyone appreciates it.

No he doesn't. Powderpuff look like a rank amateur at this game. He couldn't get a rise at a soufle factory.

[Tatsujin]

It doesn't matter how I respond HD, you'll find fault in anything I post it seems.

The case within Thailand I was referring to was closed-Court and was not publicized in any way. I can't and won't give specific details because of privacy issues other than to say that the bulk of the evidence was email and sms-based initially with follow-up from the Police that proved the gentleman in question without a doubt sent the emails from both personal and public computers.

All of this email and sms evidence was admissible in Court and easily showed when, where and how email and sms were being sent and if it's from a personal computer it's up to the defendant to then prove that it wasn't him that sent them as the Court reasonably assumes that if it's your personal computer then it's only you using it. Don't forget, email messages also often contain hidden code that shows which specific PC that is used to send them.

Video evidence was also obtained that linked him directly with said emails as the information found within the headers etc was enough to show when and where they were sent from and video was then also used to show it was him personally that was sending them at that time. The upshot of this recent case is that the foreigner in question is now spending 8 years and 2 months in a Thai jail before being deported and blacklisted.

I won't provide Court or docket numbers or whatever else was requested previously on here, but if you want to get off your arse and go search yourselves, it won't be hard to find the information.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Tatsujin

[olsen]

Thanks, Sunbelt Asia.

First I will say that my copy og the Computer Crime Act says in Section 16:

"Any person, who imports to a computer system that is publicly accessible, computer data where a third party’s picture appears either created, edited, added or adapted by electronic means or otherwise in a manner that is likely to impair that third party’s reputation or cause that third party to be isolated, disgusted or embarrassed, shall be subject to imprisonment for not longer than three years or a fine of not more than sixty thousand baht, or both."

[olsen]

Sunbelt Asia again:

The contract between my company and Mr. X states:

"Supervision of Work:

Owner agrees that the direction and supervision of the working force including subcontractor, rests exclusively with the builder, or his duly designated agent, and owner agrees not to issue any instructions to, or otherwise interfere with, same. The owner further agrees not to negotiate for additional work with the builders subcontractors nor to engage other builders or subcontractors except with the builder's consent and in such manner as will not interfere with builder's completion of work under this agreement."

But over and over again Mr. X interfere with the construction and my builders were tired of it and I told Mr. X both by phone and emails to STOP interferring else I would terminate the contract.

But Mr. X kept interferring over and over again.

But when he then decided to pay directly to my builders, then I had enough and terminated the contract.

First I emailed him that the contract was terminated and then I wrote a letter to him and pushed it under the door to his rented resort room 3 days later.

My question is now: Were I allowed to terminate the contract with Mr. X or not?

[olsen]

I, for one, would certainly like to hear Mr. X's side of the story. Don't worry about the police. If no criminal laws have been broken they will not get involved in a contract dispute, that is essentially a matter for the civil courts. Defamation and/or internet fraud, that is another matter altogether.

Sure....I actually also considered to invite him here for telling his side of the story.

But now I have dealt with him for almost 8 months, and all he does is harrasing me and lying about almost everything.

He posts defaming threads on many forums all over the net, including Facebook, Twitter, Blogger etc. He always uses fake names and also uses fake names acting as some of my earlier clients....but it is all lies, and I can do nothing about it....He actually tried signing up as a TV member and to bring me in trouble here, but the mods quickly expelled him - thanks for that :jap:

But I am sure someday he will stumble over this thread and then he will sign up and then we will see what he is up to!

[olsen]

If say I post Mr. X photo on my website and tell my story there and also tell my visitors that I have now reported Mr. X to the police for dematation and libel, do I then also risk to be reported to the police for defamation?

I think so, because of the Thai Computer Crime Act section 16, I recently posted.

But what if I just use Mr. X´s real name and don´t show his photo? Will this also be defamation?

I have decided that want this case closed so I will report Mr. X to the police tomorrow bringing all my evidence including screenshots from his website showing my photo underlined with the wording "Conman Olsen" - he he It also shows that Mr. X warns his visitors using me as a broker and developer, and several lies that I can PROVE is lies....easy to prove these lies .....

[MJo]

.

First I emailed him that the contract was terminated and then I wrote a letter to him and pushed it under the door to his rented resort room 3 days later.

My question is now: Were I allowed to terminate the contract with Mr. X or not?

[/quote

I think you were allowed to terminate. Especially if the subcon can testify for you that mr X contracted them directly.

Instead of delivering the letter under door you should have gotten Mr. X to sign it as received or if he refused then send it via registered mail and then fax and email copy to him as well. Standard practice in construction business, that's how you deal with claims.

For emails, looks like HD is mr X ? What the others, including sunbelt is saying is correct. Emails are admissible when proved by ISP's. Used as main evidence or support depends on the case and your contract terms with mr X.

[Tatsujin]

HD could be Mr X lol . . . it would explain a lot.

Olsen > I wouldn't post anything online at all about Mr X otherwise you will be liable to the same problems Mr X will now be facing. If you start a tit-for-tat war with him then everyone loses. Just follow it up with the Lawyers/Police asap and let them deal with it.

[Tatsujin]

For emails, looks like HD is mr X ? What the others, including sunbelt is saying is correct. Emails are admissible when proved by ISP's. Used as main evidence or support depends on the case and your contract terms with mr X.

As I've said all along, email are admissible in Court, whether as supporting evidence or not, they can and are used in any Court provided all the relevant checks etc are performed (by the Police) and provided the presiding Judge allows them, same as with ANY other type of evidence electronic or otherwise.

[olsen]

HD is not Mr. X

Tatsujin - Yeah...better not attract more attention to my name and company than Mr. X already do... So I will drop this idea....

More info tomorrow when I´ve reported Mr. X to the police. See ya...

[Tatsujin]

HD is not Mr. X

Tatsujin - Yeah...better not attract more attention to my name and company than Mr. X already do... So I will drop this idea....

More info tomorrow when I´ve reported Mr. X to the police. See ya...

Take your Lawyer with you who is familiar with everything that is going on, it'll make it a lot easier and simpler process at the Police station

[Tatsujin]

olsen > waiting on an update . . .

[HeavyDrinker]

Why, even after being told by the Lawyers you requested that emails are NOT admissible, do you persist in posting misinformation?

[thaiwanderer]

Olsen, it's important not to let the potential libel issue cloud your judgement here.

Putting your hurt feelings and possible loss of business aside for a moment what are you actually hoping to achieve if you pursue the libel angle?

With regards to the contract itself I suspect you may have made some problems for yourself by wavering a little.

Appears there was a new written contract and you agreed having terminated (in your mind) to start up again etc..

This may cause you problems.

As he was making staged payments are you sure you did everything you were reuired to do until you validly terminated (both in relation to reason for termination and process)?

As to reason and process what exact part of your contract are you relying on for why you terminated (him being difficult not being enough) and how (email and letter left sufficient?)?

[manarak]

Rubbish . . . emails are very easily traceable (with a little effort and access to the ISP's records) and have hidden unique attributes in the headers etc that can be traced to prove where, when and from who it was originally posted.

Rubbish! Emails are inadmissible as evidence as is any unsigned or unwitnessed document.

in commercial law, any evidence is acceptable, up to the judge to admit/dismiss it!

[HeavyDrinker]

in commercial law, any evidence is acceptable, up to the judge to admit/dismiss it!

Thanks for that Ironside. So is a judge in this case going to admit unproven/unprovable - 'inadmissible' evidence, or just throw it out?

Back to your bar stool with Tatsujin......

Edited March 1, 2011 by HeavyDrinker

[PattayaParent]

This is absolutely not true. I have been in the situation where emails were an admissible part of the evidence when a verbal agreement is made and disagreement arises. It is not difficult when the person is using a e-mail of the company that is providing the service. Even with personnel mail, it is not too difficult to validate when used within context.I have been provided with legal opinion on this

It still doesn't make them admissible. All they are are circumstantial to the central claim which would be the dispute between the parties of the verbal agreement.

If the case ever had to hinge on the email(s), any defence lawyer worth his salt would deny all liability of them on behalf of his client, hence they are inadmissible.

So as soon as a defence lawyer says his client is 'not guilty' all evidence to the contrary is immediatly inadmissible.

Brilliant legal strategy!!

I don't know why courts all around the world don't adopt that policy, it would save days of listening to tedious evidence if it was rendered inadmissible at the outset. And just think of all the money it would save by not needing prisons anymore.

[PattayaParent]

Double post

Edited March 3, 2011 by PattayaParent

[HeavyDrinker]

I don't make the rules PP. This is why legal process can be so long a drawn out even before it gets to the courtroom.