Seven Thai Red Shirt Leaders Freed On Bail

[Nisa]

True but it is as I said the closest to the winner becoming President.

Agree -- was just saying it is not all that straight forward or perfect there either. One thing I don't like about the US system is that the president elected doesn't always represent what the majority really wants in office. In my mind it only really works electing a single president if there are only two candidates. In other words if you have 2 big named liberals running and only 1 big named conservative and the 2 liberals both get 30% of the vote and the conservative gets 35% while others get 5% you end up with a conservative president even though 60% of people voted along liberal lines.

I am not that familiar with the parliamentary system but it seems to represent the people better ... at least from what I do know or think I know.

[whybother]

True but it is as I said the closest to the winner becoming President.

Agree -- was just saying it is not all that straight forward or perfect there either. One thing I don't like about the US system is that the president elected doesn't always represent what the majority really wants in office. In my mind it only really works electing a single president if there are only two candidates. In other words if you have 2 big named liberals running and only 1 big named conservative and the 2 liberals both get 30% of the vote and the conservative gets 35% while others get 5% you end up with a conservative president even though 60% of people voted along liberal lines.

I am not that familiar with the parliamentary system but it seems to represent the people better ... at least from what I do know or think I know.

Neither the US presidential system or the Westminster system (ie Thailand, UK, Aus, NZ ... and others) use the most individual (ie the people) votes to elect the winner.

In the US, the President is indirectly elected by the "electoral college", and in Thailand, the PM is elected by MPs.

In neither case do they need the majority of the peoples vote.

[Emptyset]

Ober

The PAD airport rally was to block Somchai .. not force change. Change was 100% going to happen with the video evidence against PPP. You may have come up with the idea that somehow that sped the court decision up .. if so,,, good for them.

Newin WAS banned when PPP (Thaksin's proxy party 100%) courted him after TRT was disbanded ... making him as "odious" as you say from the day his faction joined PPP. He was no more odious (in fact far less so) when BJT joined the current coalition. He wasn't hiding under anyone's skirts, and the by-elections has supported BJT. By your reasoning above that makes him beyond any repudiation.

If the PAD occupation was to block Somchai, why did they stay there for days after that task had been accomplished and state publically that they weren't leaving until the government stepped down? Why did they tell Jonathan Head that the airport invasion had been planned weeks in advance? PAD didn't cause the change in government alone, but were, I'd argue, crucial to the process. The court case was just one aspect, they could've been dissolved and still won the vote without defections & coalition partners switching sides. Why did they switch? Sure, there are few reasons, but the main reason is probably that it was clear to them that the country would continue to be made ungovernable under PPP, so there wasn't much choice but to switch sides. Obviously Newin being given pick of the ministries would've been a large factor too. Seems you're being deliberately blinkered here, JD, which is a shame because many of your points are valid and there are, of course, good reasons to oppose reds and Thaksin even if you concede their argument that the current government wasn't really 'properly' elected. Or at least concede the fact that PAD and the military had a major role in proceedings. It actually makes your argument stronger, because it shows you're willing to consider both sides of the argument.

I think the problem with Newin joining the Dem coalition was that Abhisit promised to do things differently (much like Thaksin in fact), and people saw him as incorruptible and being willing to make a stand on principles. When he agreed to team up with Newin, after all that had happened, it disappointed some people to see him behaving no differently to any other power hungry machine politician. We know what PPP are like but some of us hoped for rather more from Abhisit.

[whybother]

If the PAD occupation was to block Somchai, why did they stay there for days after that task had been accomplished and state publically that they weren't leaving until the government stepped down? Why did they tell Jonathan Head that the airport invasion had been planned weeks in advance? PAD didn't cause the change in government alone, but were, I'd argue, crucial to the process. The court case was just one aspect, they could've been dissolved and still won the vote without defections & coalition partners switching sides. Why did they switch? Sure, there are few reasons, but the main reason is probably that it was clear to them that the country would continue to be made ungovernable under PPP, so there wasn't much choice but to switch sides. Obviously Newin being given pick of the ministries would've been a large factor too. Seems you're being deliberately blinkered here, JD, which is a shame because many of your points are valid and there are, of course, good reasons to oppose reds and Thaksin even if you concede their argument that the current government wasn't really 'properly' elected. Or at least concede the fact that PAD and the military had a major role in proceedings. It actually makes your argument stronger, because it shows you're willing to consider both sides of the argument.

I think the problem with Newin joining the Dem coalition was that Abhisit promised to do things differently (much like Thaksin in fact), and people saw him as incorruptible and being willing to make a stand on principles. When he agreed to team up with Newin, after all that had happened, it disappointed some people to see him behaving no differently to any other power hungry machine politician. We know what PPP are like but some of us hoped for rather more from Abhisit.

The yellow shirts did end their protest only a day after the dissolution and well before Abhisit was elected PM. Did they know that Newin was going to jump ship 2 weeks before Abhisit became PM?

[DP25]

In other words if you have 2 big named liberals running and only 1 big named conservative and the 2 liberals both get 30% of the vote and the conservative gets 35% while others get 5% you end up with a conservative president even though 60% of people voted along liberal lines.

That's pretty much what exactly happened during the Thai elections. The 35% percent of the vote party won the most seats and was able to form a government over the 65% of people who voted for parties that ran opposed to them.

[whybother]

In other words if you have 2 big named liberals running and only 1 big named conservative and the 2 liberals both get 30% of the vote and the conservative gets 35% while others get 5% you end up with a conservative president even though 60% of people voted along liberal lines.

That's pretty much what exactly happened during the Thai elections. The 35% percent of the vote party won the most seats and was able to form a government over the 65% of people who voted for parties that ran opposed to them.

You can't quite say that, since they formed government with other parties. I'm not sure that gave them over 50% of the vote though.

[letitbe]

I can't believe it but I think ober actually says he condones extra0judicial murders as long as they are popular?

The he may as well accept the coup as it was widely popular.

How do you know it was "widely popular"? I doubt it was as popular as the war on drugs, which had 97% approval rates (or in the 90s anyway). Anyway, I agree with you, not everything should be judged on whether it's popular, or whether it benefits the majority (even if the minority suffer), although I do strongly believe election results should be respected.

emptyset obviously has an empty mind from which any garbage in becomes garbage out

[Emptyset]

I can't believe it but I think ober actually says he condones extra0judicial murders as long as they are popular?

The he may as well accept the coup as it was widely popular.

How do you know it was "widely popular"? I doubt it was as popular as the war on drugs, which had 97% approval rates (or in the 90s anyway). Anyway, I agree with you, not everything should be judged on whether it's popular, or whether it benefits the majority (even if the minority suffer), although I do strongly believe election results should be respected.

emptyset obviously has an empty mind from which any garbage in becomes garbage out

What? I questioned whether the coup was 'widely popular', and said that the WOD was likely more popular. Didn't say I supported either. Although in the interests of full disclosure, I was pro-coup at the time, but changed my mind when it became clear it had solved nothing. Definitely against the WOD though.

[phiphidon]

This is a necessary step towards reconcilliation and it weakens the double standards argument. That's already a good result!

It might have weakened the "double standards" argument if it had not taken as long as it has to get to this stage. In the meantime the "double standards" argument can equally and possibly with more justification be used for all of the red shirts in jail currently awaiting bail. In my opinion recent comments about the abuse of the "terrorism" tag and it's part in silencing political opposition in Thailand might have hit a nerve or two.

[jdinasia]

The Dems got more votes (not more seats and only seats matter ---- unless of course you mean that a single vote should represent the will of that voter) in 2007

PhiPhiDon --- perhaps you should go back through recent Thai history and see exactly where and when the "terrorism tag" should be applied. Perhaps when the red shirt leaders called for burning BKK? (and then of course it happened) ... Perhaps when Red shirt leader Seh Daeng announced that grenade attacks would be happening (and they then happened) .... Perhaps when the reds were incited by their leadership to burn in BKK in 2009? The reds pulling a man from his car and killing him in CNX (to silence someone else) .....

I actually approve of non-violent civil disobedience ... but that is not the red way. They have been violent since their inception.

[phiphidon]

The Dems got more votes (not more seats and only seats matter ---- unless of course you mean that a single vote should represent the will of that voter) in 2007

PhiPhiDon --- perhaps you should go back through recent Thai history and see exactly where and when the "terrorism tag" should be applied. Perhaps when the red shirt leaders called for burning BKK? (and then of course it happened) ... Perhaps when Red shirt leader Seh Daeng announced that grenade attacks would be happening (and they then happened) .... Perhaps when the reds were incited by their leadership to burn in BKK in 2009? The reds pulling a man from his car and killing him in CNX (to silence someone else) .....

I actually approve of non-violent civil disobedience ... but that is not the red way. They have been violent since their inception.

jdinasia - perhaps you should go back through very recent history and investigate the United Nations Special Rapporteur on human rights and counter-terrorism, Martin Scheinin's comments on Thailands "terrorism" law. He can conduct a visit to a country to assess its counter-terrorism law and practises but unfortunately only by invitation of that country. Can't see Abhisit doing that any time soon...........

[chickin]

Never seen so many sock puppets in a single thread. Now I know where all the good farang hang out. Comical.

[jdinasia]

PhiPhiDon .... with concerted grenade attacks and arson attacks I hardly need some nanny to tell me what is terrorism. That you seem to need it is rather sad, but hey if you are more comfortable calling it an insurgency or the threatened (by the red leadership) guerilla warfare I can live with that too. I quick and simple execution for those found guilty of any of the above is an acceptable conclusion.

[atyclb]

Hum, bail for terrorism charges? Would this happen in a western country? Does mean everything that happened before will be forgotten and these leaders will never be held accountable for what happened? Amazing Thailand!

No need to even mention the west. How about Japan, Singapore, China, Vietnam; highly doubt bail would be granted,

Accountability, there is more accountability in Narnia and The Land of Oz(wizard of Oz movie)

[jackr]

I think they'll continue protesting up until the election

Of course they will because a, they've got nothing else to do, b, they get paid for it, c, they're stupid, and d, most will be thinking their protestations are the sole reason for the release, so they're no doubt pumped and raring to go.

[Skywalker69]

Good, no more protests needed then.

I think they will soon find a new reason.

[diehard60]

What's next? Red shirts will rally to ask for .......... (put your suggestion here)

Probably the same thing the YELLOW SHIRTS are asking for. ****************************************************** I cant write what I think because it woudl not be proper for me to tell YYYYOOOOOOOUUUUUUUU

[diehard60]

Hum, bail for terrorism charges? Would this happen in a western country? Does mean everything that happened before will be forgotten and these leaders will never be held accountable for what happened? Amazing Thailand!

You ever heard of a group called the IRA?

This does take away the red shirts current grievance. It remains to be seen what their next one will be.

Gee the YELLOW Shirts are doing it again. In a little while there will be no government house AGAIN. Or did you forget???????????????????????????????????????????????

[ianbaggie]

"nine months since the bloody army crackdown on their protest." Y?

Dont you mean nine months since the army tried to disperse a bunch of terrorists who had killed maimed, bombed and burnt for 3 months??

Sondkran coming and the same group of bandits are free to protest just like last year. Will Thais never learn??

Its not democracy - democracy has to be protected

[yumidesign]

Hum, bail for terrorism charges? Would this happen in a western country? Does mean everything that happened before will be forgotten and these leaders will never be held accountable for what happened? Amazing Thailand!

something like that and why has Thaksin been so quiet of late?

Edited February 23, 2011 by metisdead
Corrected misspelling of Thaksin's name.

[webfact]

7 detained Red Shirt leaders released from prison

BANGKOK, Feb 23 -- The seven Red Shirt leaders detained on terrorism charges were released on Tuesday night at 7.45pm from Bangkok Remand Prison amid a group of supporters and an army of reporters who had gathered outside to celebrate the leaders' freedom.

Thailand's Criminal Court on Tuesday granted the temporary release for the seven detainees after their bail requests were earlier rejected several times since being detained last May on terrorism charges, but banned the Red Shirt leaders from leaving the country or inciting their supporters to stir unrest.

The protest leaders have been detained since the anti-government protests were forcibly put down May 19 in a military operation. Released were Natthawut Saikua, Weng Tojirakan, Korkaew Pikulthong, Kwanchai Praipana, Yoswaris Chuklom aka Jeng Dokchik, Nisit Sinthuprai and Wiphuthalaeng Pattanaphumthai.

The court also granted a temporary release to Bhumkitti Sukchindathong, a Red Shirt supporter earlier detained on the same charges with the group’s leaders.

Upon released, Mr Natthawut told the UDD followers waiting in front of the prison, thanks them for giving supports and express gratitude to the court for giving them freedom.

He added that the release could also be a good sign for reconciliation efforts and jointly create democracy.

Mr Nattawut said after resting for a few days, they would fight for the release of other UDD supporters who are still detained in prisons nationwide.

The court decision came as acting chair of the United Front for Democracy against dictatorship (UDD) Thida Thavornsreth and the movement's lawyers submitted their bail bids to the court on Monday, with Bt600,000 as collateral for each detainee (US$20,000).

The UDD also brought the country's key figures including Deputy Prime Minister Pol Maj Gen Sanan Kajornprasart and Prof Dr Kanit Na Nakorn, chair of the Independent Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Thailand (ITRCT), as witnesses in the case.

Both witnesses told the court that the temporary release of the seven will end the kingdom's current political conflict as they will be able to enter the national reconciliation process.

The court however said the released protest leaders are banned from leaving Thailand without court permission and join any political gathering to incite chaos.

UDD acting chair Mrs Thida, who is Weng's wife, said although the key Red Shirt leaders have been granted temporary releases, the movement will continue with its next rally on March 12 at the criminal court, demanding the release of more than one hundred UDD supporters nationwide. (MCOT online news)

-- TNA 2011-02-23

[webfact]

Freed reds a first step for reconciliation: Kanit

By The Nation

The temporary release of the jailed red leaders was a first step in the right direction paving way for reconciliation, panel chairman Kanit Na Nakorn said on Wednesday in reference to his task to uncover the truth in connection with last year's riots.

"The bail of red leaders is to set society right and the next step is to bring about reconciliation," he said.

Kanit said parties concerned were obliged to be cooperative with one another in order to achieve reconciliation.

But New Politics Party secretary general Suriyasai Katasila disagreed with Kanit.

Suriyasai on Wednesday slammed the government's push for reconciliation with the red shirts despite the risk to undermine the judiciary.

"If the release of red leaders is part of the reconciliation process, then this is an unforgivable mistake," he said.

Surayasai said the government could not deny that it had orchestrated state witnesses, including Deputy Prime Minister Sanan Kachornprasart, to testify in favour of bail for the jailed reds.

The outcome was the government had exploited the judiciary for its political expediency to appease the reds for the sake of survival, he said, warning about derailing the judicial process.

-- The Nation 2011-02-23

[webfact]

Reds bail a sham to rig judicial process: Suriyasai

New Politics Party secretary general Suriyasai Katasila on Wednesday slammed the government's push for reconciliation with the red shirts despite the risk to undermine the judiciary.

"If the release of red leaders is part of the reconciliation process, then this is an unforgivable mistake," he said.

Surayasai said the government could not deny that it had orchestrated state witnesses, including Deputy Prime Minister Sanan Kachornprasart, to testify in favour of bail for the jailed reds.

The outcome was the government had exploited the judiciary for its political expediency to appease the reds for the sake of survival, he said, warning about derailing the judicial process.

-- The Nation 2011-02-23

[mkawish]

Hum, bail for terrorism charges? Would this happen in a western country? Does mean everything that happened before will be forgotten and these leaders will never be held accountable for what happened? Amazing Thailand!

something like that and why has Thaksin been so quiet of late?

They are out on bail awaiting trial, rather.

[Buchholz]

UDD acting chair Mrs Thida, who is Weng's wife, said although the key Red Shirt leaders have been granted temporary releases, the movement will continue with its next rally on March 12 at the criminal court, demanding the release of more than one hundred UDD supporters nationwide.

Which the Red Shirt leadership has very noticeably been ignoring for months and months while they have vigorously pursued release for themselves:

Dozens of impoverished red shirts detained since the May 19 dispersal of the red shirts' protest have been "virtually abandoned" with no visitors and some without defence lawyers, revealed Nitirat Sapsoomboon, a member of the National Human Rights Commission's subcommittee on citizen and political rights.

At least 10 of them are women and Nitirat said red-shirt leaders and members should visit them and afford them with legal assistance.

Posted 2010-08-08

Many red shirts 'abandoned' by their leaders

[ianbaggie]

In other words if you have 2 big named liberals running and only 1 big named conservative and the 2 liberals both get 30% of the vote and the conservative gets 35% while others get 5% you end up with a conservative president even though 60% of people voted along liberal lines.

That's pretty much what exactly happened during the Thai elections. The 35% percent of the vote party won the most seats and was able to form a government over the 65% of people who voted for parties that ran opposed to them.

Yes - much as Mrs Thatcher did in 1979 - only she had 41% of the vote. - she was also able to counter them in Parliament by using the Tory whips

[mkawish]

Reds bail a sham to rig judicial process: Suriyasai

New Politics Party secretary general Suriyasai Katasila on Wednesday slammed the government's push for reconciliation with the red shirts despite the risk to undermine the judiciary.

"If the release of red leaders is part of the reconciliation process, then this is an unforgivable mistake," he said.

Surayasai said the government could not deny that it had orchestrated state witnesses, including Deputy Prime Minister Sanan Kachornprasart, to testify in favour of bail for the jailed reds.

The outcome was the government had exploited the judiciary for its political expediency to appease the reds for the sake of survival, he said, warning about derailing the judicial process.

-- The Nation 2011-02-23

As of yesterday, the atty for the yellows has filed charges of negligence and/or favoritism against PM Apisit and all his ministers....

in terms of violating Thai Constitution bylaws specifically failing to exercise due diligence to safeguard Thai citizen rights to hold

peaceful demonstration under the Thai Constitution....

and furthermore, Apisit and his ministers also concocted to institute temporary emergency rules trying to disrupt and/or disband the peaceful demonstration protected by Thai constitution....

The court has reviewed and found there are sufficient causes.... to schedule a pre-trial hearing.... sometimes in March (sorry, forgot the exact date)...

If and/or when found guilty.... it will be good-bye PM Apisit and ministers....

[ianbaggie]

My observations on Thailand. - Thailand has a very uneven distribution of wealth. The lower classes are kept in place by the ruling classes and are largely uneducated which is the biggest problem i feel. I remember my wife telling me how "rice has special magic" in it - a myth probably perpetuated to keep the poor happy with a bowl of starch which causes diabetes when it is broken down into sugar in the body over a lifetime!! Thaksin comes along and offers money to the poor to vote for him and keep him in power. They love him for this but he steals the taxes largely paid by the ruling classes gives a bit to the poor and keeps 200 billion for himself. the ruling classes get the army to throw him out backed by civil legislation and he goes into exile and stirs up all the poor who he gave money to to form an organisation to bring him back. This they do but cleverlyh claim it is in the guise of bringing democracy which comes to a violent head when his assets are seized.

I would actually support the red shirts if I believed they were doing this for democracy and not for the peanuts that the deposed dictator will handout in place of education and proper care for the poor if he is returned for power - thus my lack of support for the red shirt movement and the hope that the present government with all of its flaws are returned to power in the next election.:jap: :jap:

[hammered]

The elite dont punish each other for too long. The leaders of the movement are not a bunch of ordinary people or nobodies and were always going to get a break some way along the line. The ones who could have been sacrificial lambs either ran away or turned states evidence. Shame about all the poor ones imprisoned that the movement wouldnt supply the minimum bail money they needed to get out. Still a poor martyr banged up is politically more useful than one sitting at home although not as useful as one with their head blown off. Realpolitik as usual from all sides

[yoshiwara]

What's next? Red shirts will rally to ask for .......... (put your suggestion here)

Probably the same thing the YELLOW SHIRTS are asking for. ****************************************************** I cant write what I think because it woudl not be proper for me to tell YYYYOOOOOOOUUUUUUUU

Until they were cleared off the streets last spring, the reds were pushing for a number of targets, force the government down in time to influence the army leadership appointments or force the army to take charge through another and then claim red legitimacy to resist (with Thaksin in a white suit no doubt). The broad thrust remains. Only this year the yellows want to join the party with only the last target in place. It would suit both of them to force a coup but their chances of success either singularly or in tandem are laughable. The government will be under no illusion that the reds will continue their disruptive agenda where they can and the release on bail of several of the red leadership will be amusing to watch what direction they go. Thaksin's phone bill is going to be rather high this week as no doubt it will be call collect.