Thai Probe Says Army Did Not Kill Japan Cameraman

[OccamsRazor]

For instance a solid point slug will go right through making only a small hole while others will mushroom either staying in the body or making a big exit hole.

You might want to look up tumbling effect and cavitation. Both the Ak47 and M16 have different cavitation and tumbling damage when hitting fluid or semi-fluid matter.

[lannarebirth]

Thailand and the internet have a lot in common. Both present infinite vesrsions of "the truth" until no truth is any longer valid.

[hammered]

In may ways it doesnt matter what the weapon was. What is more important as with all the other deaths is who pulled the trigger, who if anyone ordered it or paid for it etc

There is no way that each individual death is going to be put down to a single person or weapon or in most cases even a what side. Deaths were caused by both sides and both should just admit it. Power struggles are not nice things though and nobody is really interested in truth but just making sure the other side takes the full blame

[silp1979]

i belive the japanse will not be fooled so easy, maybe another saudi arabia blue diamond story coming up?

[silp1979]

Credible, not credible...... human beings are a messed up species!

indeed some more and some less

[silp1979]

swept under the carpet.

the future historians will have a lot of corpses to identify.

"Tharit told AFP. "The Thai army does not use this kind of weapon." ... Army spokesman Colonel Sansern Kaewkamnerd ... also told the Post that the soldiers "did not use AK-47 rifles that day".

looks, like the army spokesman contradicted the head of DSI - ak47 is in the thai arsenal, but was not used on that particular day

Not a contradiction. Just a statement that needs to be looked at in context, or even in the original language. Maybe a clarification is required by asking Sansern "Did they use them any other day?"

yes very good idea also maybe ask Sansern if they used ak-47's on a regular basis in order to later blame the red shirts...clarification is a very funny word in thailand it has the meaning of bending what happend....it gets used a lot .... so i just want to clarify... lol

[Pi Sek]

A series of frankly rather unconvincing posts seeking to deflect scrutiny of the army's record.Not to be taken seriously as the vast majority politically are motivated , and in some cases incoherent.None seem aware of (or prepared to admit the army's appalling record of violence in Thailand and refusal ever to accept accountability

Key question is the attitude of the Japanese authorities who will I suspect be rather more persistent in seeking the truth, not that our little band of apologists for murder are much interested in that commodity.

But jayboy surely you see that you can apply the same logic on both sides.

The pro-army poster boys will say that, on April 10, a group of terrorists moving freely amongst the Red Shirts and various others at vantage points fired an assortment of weapons at the army. No orders were given to fire back, as the C/O was amongst the fatalities - but some soldiers might have done so in panic and/or self defence. Nonetheless, violence was instigated by the Red Shirts as was the clearance operation itself (instigated by Kwanchai & co's April 9 assault on the 1st Infantry barracks).

The pro-Red Shirt poster boys will say that, on April 10, the army indiscrimately shot into a crowd of people, without prior provocation by the Red Shirts, resulting in 20 civilian deaths and 5 army deaths.

Regardless of the RTA's track record, the pro-army posters' explanation seems to hold more weight.

I am sure there are "politically-motivated" posters on both sides. And I'm sure that those without political motivation will accept that both sides were wrong in various respects when all 91 cases are taken into account. Few pro-army posters believe the army didn't kill anyone (the debate is whether the killings were legitimate), but many pro-Red posters refuse to acknowledge the very high likelihood that elements within the Red Shirt movement did kill people (both soldiers and civilians).

We see a lot of defence for the Red Shirts on these boards and that's fine, but I think that only the most scarlet of minds will try to pin the April 10 violence in particular on the army alone.

[TAWP]

My mind would be comforted if Khunying Pornthip Rojanasunand M.D. .......

The woman has no credibility. You might want to reconsider your position.

I believe the evidence is inconclusive and this is due to the manner in which the evidence was gathered and analyzed.

And yet she has far more credibility than you will ever have.

[TAWP]

My mind would be comforted if Khunying Pornthip Rojanasunand M.D. .......

The woman has no credibility. You might want to reconsider your position.

I believe the evidence is inconclusive and this is due to the manner in which the evidence was gathered and analyzed.

Agree completely about Porntip.

After GT 2000, what can you say.

Nonsense - she never said it works and is all great, she said that people had reported to her that it works and so she believes them. She never defended it as if she was placing all her reputation on it in a 'may the lord strike me down if it doesn't work' fashion that some of your red-leaning posters seem to imply.

You are the ones with credibility issues in your criticism of her since it all coincides with her findings regarding killed or wounded from riots by reds.

[Pi Sek]

My mind would be comforted if Khunying Pornthip Rojanasunand M.D. .......

The woman has no credibility. You might want to reconsider your position.

I believe the evidence is inconclusive and this is due to the manner in which the evidence was gathered and analyzed.

Agree completely about Porntip.

After GT 2000, what can you say.

Nonsense - she never said it works and is all great, she said that people had reported to her that it works and so she believes them. She never defended it as if she was placing all her reputation on it in a 'may the lord strike me down if it doesn't work' fashion that some of your red-leaning posters seem to imply.

You are the ones with credibility issues in your criticism of her since it all coincides with her findings regarding killed or wounded from riots by reds.

I think that whatever way you look at it, her reputation has indeed been damaged by the GT200 scandal.

Having said that, there aren't too many people around in Thailand that can claim the same level of knowledge and competence in forensics as she can.

[transam]

swept under the carpet.

the future historians will have a lot of corpses to identify.

"Tharit told AFP. "The Thai army does not use this kind of weapon." ... Army spokesman Colonel Sansern Kaewkamnerd ... also told the Post that the soldiers "did not use AK-47 rifles that day".

looks, like the army spokesman contradicted the head of DSI - ak47 is in the thai arsenal, but was not used on that particular day

Think you must look at Thai translation. NOT perfect English and you can read anything you want into your thoughts of those written words.

As far as l am aware the army use US M16's and l never saw one soldier in all the news reel stuff carrying an AK47 and as a sniper weapon it is useless. I did see men in black with AK47's mingling in the crowd.

[random]

Of course it is a cover up, of course the army were responsible for the deaths of many unarmed people that day, people not posing an immediate threat were shot and killed by the army, only a fool would try and argue otherwise.

I

How many unarmed were killed that day many means more than one.

Only a fool would refuse to look at the evidence.

The evidence is surely going to be very suspicious coming this late.

How do you figure the army was responsible. They may of fired the shot but they were not responsible for him being in a war zone or for creating the situation with the illegal seizure of the area.

When if ever will the red shirts take responsibility for there actions.

Explain if you can why the army was there if there was nothing wrong. Yes I know because the police could not do there job. But why would the police have been there if they could have done there job?

You can babble on about the injustice of it all and the mishandling of the poor armed peaceful demonstrators. But ask yourself if they were in your back yard refusing to move turning it into a garbage dump and urging people to burn it down if you didn't give them what they wanted would you say that was OK.

You might want to take another look at where the responsibility for the whole mess really is.

I will give you a clue. There was a lot of money paid by a citizen of several other countries.

a war zone???? utter claptrap, for a war you need two armies, next you will suggest the IRA are a legitimate military organization and Northern Ireland was a war.

this was was it was, it was a slaughter, and many of the people that died did so at the hands of the Thai army whilst the person was unarmed and not posing any immediate threat (I have no doubt some reds were armed (with firearms) and deserved everything they got, but to suggest that everyone killed by the army was armed and posing an immediate threat is just pure <deleted>, you know it, I know it, however your hatred of all things red won't allow you to say it.

[rubl]

Yes, getting on for one year later now and we are still none the wiser, I am sure if there was irrefutable evidence that anyone other than the army shot and killed people we would have seen it by now, people would have been arrested as the Government show all and sundry how squeaky clean they were during the troubles, but since there is an election coming up and the truth will do the dems no favours the truth is being stalled, the truth is being witheld, and in this matter the truth is being changed.

Only a fool would try and argue that the army were not responsible for the slaughter of unarmed civilians that were posing no immediate threat, they even manged to shoot one of their own in the head as he went to help them on viphawadi Road such was their indiscriminate shooting at that time. I stand by my comment.

This is a cover up, the results have been changed

Why the 'slaughter' in an otherwise reasonable opinion ? Don't you like people to agree with you? As for none the wiser after a year, aren't there other cases which have been running for much longer and are even less clear?

[animatic]

AK-47 is not in any sense a sniper weapon.

As to the accusation of 'some posters' trying to deflect away from the army. Stating ballistics and forensic methodologies and practices has nothing to do with deflection tactics. Stating that what is probable sets of truths, is intentional obscuration for political purposes, IS deflecting topics from facts and into the political realm of wishful thinking and political fantasy mongering.

[animatic]

It seems the only ones on this forum and indeed in the country who know without a doubt who killed this reporter and everyone else who died are the red shirt supporters.

Notwithstanding their certainty in this case there was a exit wound so the projectile was not recovered and therefore could not be positivly identified.

However there could well be, indeed probably was traces of bullet left in the wound.

This would depend on the type of bullet used, soft point, hollow point, solid point.

For instance a solid point slug will go right through making only a small hole while others will mushroom either staying in the body or making a big exit hole.

The forensic people would know for sure what ammo the army was using on that day and therefore would be able to tell if any traces in the wound came from that type of ammo.

There is also the calibre, M16 = 222, AK47 = 308 or 7.62 if you like.<br>

Those coupled with the type of round would tend to give different wound profiles.

The distance the shot was fired from is also unknown but it could also be reasonable to estimate this by the wound profiles.

There would also have been a limited distance of visibility on the day which would limit the distance the shot could have been fired from.<br>

Put all these things together and a reasonable conclusion can be reached.

But not I suspect with the absolute certainty expressed by the reds.<br>

But as I noted it is easy to create specialty trick ammo or ammo that obscures its real source and to use weapons intended to emulate your opposing sides weapons to make it appear they are culpable. Particularly if it 'just happens that your people are 'accidentally' seen with one kind, but the killings are done with another.

Ex military are just as good at mis-information psy-ops as those presently in uniform. And if the moral competent is removed by personal greed and opportunity any thing is possible.

Edited February 28, 2011 by animatic

[TAWP]

a war zone???? utter claptrap, for a war you need two armies, next you will suggest the IRA are a legitimate military organization and Northern Ireland was a war.

Uh, your comparison doesn't make sense.

If you wanted to compare, you would say 'next you suggest the IRA was a military organization and they wanted to wage war with the military of the state' -- which is indeed what Red Shirts wanted to do and the IRA did.

[Roadman]

A series of frankly rather unconvincing posts seeking to deflect scrutiny of the army's record.Not to be taken seriously as the vast majority politically are motivated , and in some cases incoherent.None seem aware of (or prepared to admit the army's appalling record of violence in Thailand and refusal ever to accept accountability

Key question is the attitude of the Japanese authorities who will I suspect be rather more persistent in seeking the truth, not that our little band of apologists for murder are much interested in that commodity.

But jayboy surely you see that you can apply the same logic on both sides.

The pro-army poster boys will say that, on April 10, a group of terrorists moving freely amongst the Red Shirts and various others at vantage points fired an assortment of weapons at the army. No orders were given to fire back, as the C/O was amongst the fatalities - but some soldiers might have done so in panic and/or self defence. Nonetheless, violence was instigated by the Red Shirts as was the clearance operation itself (instigated by Kwanchai & co's April 9 assault on the 1st Infantry barracks).

The pro-Red Shirt poster boys will say that, on April 10, the army indiscrimately shot into a crowd of people, without prior provocation by the Red Shirts, resulting in 20 civilian deaths and 5 army deaths.

Regardless of the RTA's track record, the pro-army posters' explanation seems to hold more weight.

I am sure there are "politically-motivated" posters on both sides. And I'm sure that those without political motivation will accept that both sides were wrong in various respects when all 91 cases are taken into account. Few pro-army posters believe the army didn't kill anyone (the debate is whether the killings were legitimate), but many pro-Red posters refuse to acknowledge the very high likelihood that elements within the Red Shirt movement did kill people (both soldiers and civilians).

We see a lot of defence for the Red Shirts on these boards and that's fine, but I think that only the most scarlet of minds will try to pin the April 10 violence in particular on the army alone.

Stop being so logical...your analysis is flawed as the Army didn't shoot 5 of their own on April 10 but given Red supporters logic that would work as the Black scum among the Red ranks will be in actual fact Thai Royal Army in disguise .

[animatic]

So you think trying to make clear the variables involved in making a determination is apologizing for murder???...

in your dreams.

And a wholly appalling and disgusting remark to make,

but seemingly par for the course...

Edited February 28, 2011 by animatic

[blackthorn2005]

Why has it taken nearly a year to identify the calibre of the bullet?

I guess if it was not the army that shot him, it must have been suicide

[jdinasia]

In may ways it doesnt matter what the weapon was. What is more important as with all the other deaths is who pulled the trigger, who if anyone ordered it or paid for it etc

There is no way that each individual death is going to be put down to a single person or weapon or in most cases even a what side. Deaths were caused by both sides and both should just admit it. Power struggles are not nice things though and nobody is really interested in truth but just making sure the other side takes the full blame

A solid answer by Hammered (I expect no less). People were killed. Some by the army and some by the reds. I am sure that the Japanese will make their own conclusions NOT based upon anyone else's slanted opinions.

[jayboy]

I am sure that the Japanese will make their own conclusions NOT based upon anyone else's slanted opinions.

On that I can certainly agree.

[transam]

Why has it taken nearly a year to identify the calibre of the bullet?

I guess if it was not the army that shot him, it must have been suicide

You obviously didn't see the footage of guys in the crowds with AK47's. Now WHY would a guy bring an AK to a demonstration, jewellery perhaps, nike brand accessory hmmm.

AND did you ever consider that the AK guy didn't want the Jap filming him close range.

Edited February 28, 2011 by transam

[jayboy]

Nonsense - she never said it works and is all great, she said that people had reported to her that it works and so she believes them. She never defended it as if she was placing all her reputation on it in a 'may the lord strike me down if it doesn't work' fashion that some of your red-leaning posters seem to imply.

You are the ones with credibility issues in your criticism of her since it all coincides with her findings regarding killed or wounded from riots by reds.

You're barking up the wrong tree in your defence of Pornthip.Her reputation, personal integrity and credibility are shattered through the GT 200 scandal.

She is a member of the government agency which purchased the GT200 devices (at absurdly inflated expense for essentially a glorified Blockbusters card). These same devices have been purchased by countries and agencies that have a history of procuring items corruptly.The ridiculous things don't work.

I wouldn't dream of accusing her defenders that they are motivated by her findings on the killings last year - yet you have no hesitation in saying her critics are motivated by her findings in this area.

[jayboy]

I am sure there are "politically-motivated" posters on both sides. And I'm sure that those without political motivation will accept that both sides were wrong in various respects when all 91 cases are taken into account. Few pro-army posters believe the army didn't kill anyone (the debate is whether the killings were legitimate), but many pro-Red posters refuse to acknowledge the very high likelihood that elements within the Red Shirt movement did kill people (both soldiers and civilians).

We see a lot of defence for the Red Shirts on these boards and that's fine, but I think that only the most scarlet of minds will try to pin the April 10 violence in particular on the army alone.

I just would like to see an independent and thorough investigation.I certainly don't think the violence can be pinned on the army alone, far from it.

But the army has a terrible track record on cover ups and that's why one tends to be sceptical.

But most compellingly we still have no real understanding of what happened, and there's very little sense of urgency in getting to the bottom of events.We don't even know who the men in black are and I don't think any have been arrested.

As to this forum there are certainly quite a few experts, mainly I think ex non commissioned officers who can bore endlessly for America on barrelling, calibre and weaponry generally but have no real ability to analyse or see the broader context.Their political views are obvious.

[jdinasia]

I have like Khunying Pornthip for a LONG time. (Have met her a few times.) She has the intestinal fortitude to stand up to the police in Thailand and that says a lot!

However, I do agree that her credibility was diminished by her defense of the GT device.

[TAWP]

You're barking up the wrong tree in your defence of Pornthip.Her reputation, personal integrity and credibility are shattered through the GT 200 scandal.

Not at all, ever since her findings that the teargas grenades that killed demonstrators during PADs sit-in-attempt was found by her team to be dangerous and proven lethal (including containing RDX) red-supporters have done everything they can to label her as a government lackey, yellow supporter or just incompetent. And the complaints have ranged from everything from her hair-style to the presumed arrogance the poster perceives her to have -- or now after the GT 200 debacle, as someone who defended it. And the latter is to re-write history.

But then again, you have no problem with that.

[jayboy]

You're barking up the wrong tree in your defence of Pornthip.Her reputation, personal integrity and credibility are shattered through the GT 200 scandal.

Not at all, ever since her findings that the teargas grenades that killed demonstrators during PADs sit-in-attempt was found by her team to be dangerous and proven lethal (including containing RDX) red-supporters have done everything they can to label her as a government lackey, yellow supporter or just incompetent. And the complaints have ranged from everything from her hair-style to the presumed arrogance the poster perceives her to have -- or now after the GT 200 debacle, as someone who defended it. And the latter is to re-write history.

But then again, you have no problem with that.

You completely miss the point, your judgement apparently distorted and twisted by your political prejudices.It's nothing to do with her other work, much of which I'm not particularly well informed about.I understand however she has been competent and as Jdinasia says, always keen to find some common ground, her standing up to the police has been admirable.

But the GT 200 debacle has destroyed her reputation.It's not even debatable I'm afraid.

[webfact]

Thai agency denies pressure in cameraman probe

BANGKOK, February 28, 2011 (AFP) - A Thai government agency probing the death of a Japanese cameraman during a military crackdown on protests in Bangkok last April denied Monday it had been pressured to clear the army of responsibility.

The Department of Special Investigation (DSI) had earlier said government troops might have shot Hiroyuki Muramoto of the Reuters news agency, and forwarded the case to metropolitan police for further investigation.

But DSI chief Tharit Pengdit told AFP on Sunday: "The forensic reports from a respected doctor found that the AK-47 caused the death of the Japanese cameraman. The Thai army does not use this kind of weapon."

Tharit told reporters on Monday that neither the government nor the military had interfered in the probe.

"There's no pressure," he told reporters. "I can confirm that we are doing our jobs as normal."

He said that the initial conclusion that Muramoto might have been killed by the military was based on a witness account from a policeman, who said the shot had come from an area where there were both soldiers and protesters.

The Bangkok Post newspaper reported Sunday "claims that the army chief of staff paid the DSI head a visit to complain about an initial department finding" that said soldiers should be blamed for the death.

Reuters called for clarification.

"The apparent contradiction between the preliminary investigation and these reports makes full transparency about the process and the findings imperative," Stephen Adler, editor-in-chief of Reuters News, said in a statement.

Muramoto, 43, was one of two foreign cameramen killed during the unrest in April and May. More than 90 people -- mostly civilians -- died in the clashes between troops and protesters.

Both sides accused each other of using live ammunition.

A police forensic expert, Amporn Charuchinda, told reporters the autopsy report and pictures suggested that Muramoto was killed by a bullet with a diameter of at least seven millimetres, which could have come from an AK-47.

The Japanese embassy declined to comment on the new conclusion.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-02-28

[Pi Sek]

You're barking up the wrong tree in your defence of Pornthip.Her reputation, personal integrity and credibility are shattered through the GT 200 scandal.

Not at all, ever since her findings that the teargas grenades that killed demonstrators during PADs sit-in-attempt was found by her team to be dangerous and proven lethal (including containing RDX) red-supporters have done everything they can to label her as a government lackey, yellow supporter or just incompetent. And the complaints have ranged from everything from her hair-style to the presumed arrogance the poster perceives her to have -- or now after the GT 200 debacle, as someone who defended it. And the latter is to re-write history.

But then again, you have no problem with that.

You completely miss the point, your judgement apparently distorted and twisted by your political prejudices.It's nothing to do with her other work, much of which I'm not particularly well informed about.I understand however she has been competent and as Jdinasia says, always keen to find some common ground, her standing up to the police has been admirable.

But the GT 200 debacle has destroyed her reputation.It's not even debatable I'm afraid.

I agree with jayboy's sentiment here (first time for everything!) but I'd say that 'destroyed' is perhaps too strong a word. She did put her name to a piece of equipment, though, and it turns out that that piece of equipment didn't do what it was supposed to do.

But, as I say above, she's still super-qualified (the most qualified?) for what she is asked to do for the country.

[jayboy]

She did put her name to a piece of equipment, though, and it turns out that that piece of equipment didn't do what it was supposed to do.

It's even worse than that.She was an active member of the agency that ordered the GT200 at hugely inflated prices.Her scientific reputation naturally is ruined, but there are other even more damaging questions.

Do you remember the final army response on the GT 200, after the press expose, which came with a Kafkaesqe photo of top brass? I found it deeply sinister.Basically the message to the Thai public was: We know this is a piece of worthless junk, and we know you know that as well.But we are in charge and we will line our pockets no matter what you say.So go screw yourselves and don't ask any further impertinent questions.

I think that conveys the military response on the GT200 matter relatively accurately.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Scott
Quotation marks removed