Venerable Father

[camerata]

Anyone read Venerable Father: A Life with Ajahn Chah by Paul Breiter? I initially thought the back cover description of it as "an underground classic" was a bit over the top, but it really does leave a lasting impression of an exceptional man and his teaching methods.

[Abandon]

yep - classic book. Gives a very real, irreverent but not disrespectful insight into those early days. The 'underground' element was because all the people were real people, with their names changed, and not all those folk came off too well. Now that so many of the characters described are no longer monks, or are too seperated in time for it to matter, maybe the 'underground' description is not so relevant.

[Bakuteh]

Anyone read Venerable Father: A Life with Ajahn Chah by Paul Breiter? I initially thought the back cover description of it as "an underground classic" was a bit over the top, but it really does leave a lasting impression of an exceptional  man and his teaching methods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read this book 5 years ago and found it inspiring and amusing. Basically an account of the struggles of a young farang novice monk getting to terms with the life of a forest monk in Isaan and his initial hate-love relationship with the legendary Ajahn Chah. Later he left the monkhood and returned to the States, now writing books related to Ajahn Chah and the Thai Forest Tradition.

There is another similar book of the same genre titled: "What The Buddha Never Taught" written by another farang ex-forest monk. Browsed through it, found it interesting but never got round to buying it.

These books and those by Jack Kornfield were written about the time during the 70s and part of the 80s when it was hip for farang young men to enrol in a Thai monastery and get ordained. Some like Sumedho stayed the course and became abbots while the vast majority disrobed after a few years of monkhood, albeit with their life and perspectives changed forever.

Wonder if this trend of farang men seeking to be ordained in Thailand still exists on the scale of the 70s and 80s when those coming were mostly retired Peace Corp or hippies.

There is also another book written by an American ex-real estate and finance yuppie who ordained in Thailand somewhere in or near Chiangmai who is now popular with American tourists dispensing advice on spiritual and personal matters.

Then there is a series of books written by a British Ajahn who was ordained in a Nakhon Sawan temple and now promotes an educational charity for underprevileged Thai children. He appears to be doing a great job although the idea of Caucasian Christian missionaries slogging it out in the Third World is along the same lines.

One of the positive facets of Caucasian missionaries is their admirable and excellent communication skills, being able to write and speak well on just any topic and this includes Buddhism as evidenced by authors like Thurman, Lama Surya Das, Jack Kornfield and others too numerous to list here. I am sure there are equally effective Asian monks and nuns but generally they don't write about it, of course this does not include the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh. Could this be something to do with traditional Asian reserve?

Just one puzzling thought though: Why do authors like Thich Nhat Hanh jealously protect the copyright to their books if the Buddha was purported to have declared that the Greatest Gift is the Gift of the Dhamma? Guess I haven't figured this one out yet.

May all forum members and sentient beings be happy and find peace.

Edited September 15, 2005 by Bakuteh

[Mr. Farang]

Anyone read Venerable Father: A Life with Ajahn Chah by Paul Breiter? I initially thought the back cover description of it as "an underground classic" was a bit over the top, but it really does leave a lasting impression of an exceptional  man and his teaching methods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read this book 5 years ago and found it inspiring and amusing. Basically an account of the struggles of a young farang novice monk getting to terms with the life of a forest monk in Isaan and his initial hate-love relationship with the legendary Ajahn Chah. Later he left the monkhood and returned to the States, now writing books related to Ajahn Chah and the Thai Forest Tradition.

There is another similar book of the same genre titled: "What The Buddha Never Taught" written by another farang ex-forest monk. Browsed through it, found it interesting but never got round to buying it.

These books and those by Jack Kornfield were written about the time during the 70s and part of the 80s when it was hip for farang young men to enrol in a Thai monastery and get ordained. Some like Sumedho stayed the course and became abbots while the vast majority disrobed after a few years of monkhood, albeit with their life and perspectives changed forever.

Wonder if this trend of farang men seeking to be ordained in Thailand still exists on the scale of the 70s and 80s when those coming were mostly retired Peace Corp or hippies.

There is also another book written by an American ex-real estate and finance yuppie who ordained in Thailand somewhere in or near Chiangmai who is now popular with American tourists dispensing advice on spiritual and personal matters.

Then there is a series of books written by a British Ajahn who was ordained in a Nakhon Sawan temple and now promotes an educational charity for underprevileged Thai children. He appears to be doing a great job although the idea of Caucasian Christian missionaries slogging it out in the Third World is along the same lines.

One of the positive facets of Caucasian missionaries is their admirable and excellent communication skills, being able to write and speak well on just any topic and this includes Buddhism as evidenced by authors like Thurman, Lama Surya Das, Jack Kornfield and others too numerous to list here. I am sure there are equally effective Asian monks and nuns but generally they don't write about it, of course this does not include the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh. Could this be something to do with traditional Asian reserve?

Just one puzzling thought though: Why do authors like Thich Nhat Hanh jealously protect the copyright to their books if the Buddha was purported to have declared that the Greatest Gift is the Gift of the Dhamma? Guess I haven't figured this one out yet.

May all forum members and sentient beings be happy and find peace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Bakuteh.

Excellent post.

Yours sincerely, Mr. Farang

[sabaijai]

There's another excellent title containing Q&A with Ajahn Chah. I forget the name, something like Contemplating the Bodhi Tree. Most of the English-language publications about Aj Chah are available online for free.

I had the honour of meeting with Aj Chah and a few of his western monks a couple of times at his main monastery near Ubon in the late 70s and again in the early 80s. It's amazing how his legacy lives on in monasteries not only in northeastern Thailand but in forest-style monasteries the UK, America and Australia.

Here in Sri Lanka (where I am till the end of the month), at least some monks are well aware of his 'style', and I saw a couple of Aj Chah titles at the Buddhist Publication Society library in Kandy.

My impression in Thailand at least is that there are fewer Westerners in robes than there were in the 70s, and that the trend was declining by the 80s. However I have no figures to back that up. One reason maya be that most of the 'better' monasteries have tightened up their requirements for ordination for foreigners, often requring a period of time spent in white robes as an 8-precept layperson, followed by another period as a samanera or novice. Wat Bowonniwet, for one, has stopped ordaining Westerners altogether. The reasons I hear for this tightening up is that there were various abuses by Western monks, e.g., using the robes as a way to stay in Thailand indefinitely with non-immigrant visas, improper monastery etiquette, etc.

[Mr. Farang]

I had the honour of meeting with Aj Chah and a few of his western monks a couple of times at his main monastery near Ubon in the late 70s and again in the early 80s. It's amazing how his legacy lives on in monasteries not only in northeastern Thailand but in forest-style monasteries the UK, America and Australia.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is Achan Chah's kamma, providing a very vivid illustration (lesson) of how ones kamma transends death. Also, the (teaching-influencing) kamma of Achan Chah is conditioned by actions upon his memory today, which is also another vivid illustration on how the kamma of the living effect (condition) the kamma of those who have passed away (and the other way...)

One of the main points being that the matrix of kamma, or kamma matrix, everyone is connected, the living, the death, and those yet to be born, as sentinent beings are connected in the "kamma matrix" and the "kamma matrix" is conditioned. In effect, there is no "reality" there is only the "kamma matrix" which, at this moment, is the conditioned "sum total" of all the world's kamma, which creates the "illusion" of life we call "the world".... all based on rules, traditions, rituals, fears, joys, desires, ad infinitum, which comprise the "kamma matix" we see as "life"..... it is a "constructed reality". The Buddhist meditator follows the Eigh Fold Path to development the mindfulness to penetrate the kamma matrix, to see what is kamma, what is dhamma.

The mind if the Buddha can be seen in all things. One can read 10000 books on Buddhist thought and not see what kamma, dhamma and the kamma matrix. The Buddha simply (very kind of him) gave us a set of "tools" to observe the "kamma matrix" starting with seeing our own individual kamma and then, for many, going outward from there (if that is their destiny).

As. to state the obvious. this is also part of my kamma, to help those here to understand the "gems" of the mind of the Buddha (and how a part of the kamma we know as "Thai culture" is conditioned by the same).

PS: My time on TV is temporary, BTW.

[Bakuteh]

Anyone read Venerable Father: A Life with Ajahn Chah by Paul Breiter? I initially thought the back cover description of it as "an underground classic" was a bit over the top, but it really does leave a lasting impression of an exceptional  man and his teaching methods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read this book 5 years ago and found it inspiring and amusing. Basically an account of the struggles of a young farang novice monk getting to terms with the life of a forest monk in Isaan and his initial hate-love relationship with the legendary Ajahn Chah. Later he left the monkhood and returned to the States, now writing books related to Ajahn Chah and the Thai Forest Tradition.

There is another similar book of the same genre titled: "What The Buddha Never Taught" written by another farang ex-forest monk. Browsed through it, found it interesting but never got round to buying it.

These books and those by Jack Kornfield were written about the time during the 70s and part of the 80s when it was hip for farang young men to enrol in a Thai monastery and get ordained. Some like Sumedho stayed the course and became abbots while the vast majority disrobed after a few years of monkhood, albeit with their life and perspectives changed forever.

Wonder if this trend of farang men seeking to be ordained in Thailand still exists on the scale of the 70s and 80s when those coming were mostly retired Peace Corp or hippies.

There is also another book written by an American ex-real estate and finance yuppie who ordained in Thailand somewhere in or near Chiangmai who is now popular with American tourists dispensing advice on spiritual and personal matters.

Then there is a series of books written by a British Ajahn who was ordained in a Nakhon Sawan temple and now promotes an educational charity for underprevileged Thai children. He appears to be doing a great job although the idea of Caucasian Christian missionaries slogging it out in the Third World is along the same lines.

One of the positive facets of Caucasian missionaries is their admirable and excellent communication skills, being able to write and speak well on just any topic and this includes Buddhism as evidenced by authors like Thurman, Lama Surya Das, Jack Kornfield and others too numerous to list here. I am sure there are equally effective Asian monks and nuns but generally they don't write about it, of course this does not include the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh. Could this be something to do with traditional Asian reserve?

Just one puzzling thought though: Why do authors like Thich Nhat Hanh jealously protect the copyright to their books if the Buddha was purported to have declared that the Greatest Gift is the Gift of the Dhamma? Guess I haven't figured this one out yet.

May all forum members and sentient beings be happy and find peace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Bakuteh.

Excellent post.

Yours sincerely, Mr. Farang

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greetings Mr Farang

Thanks for your compliment, thought I had to chip in after lurking so long.

I have bought many of the books mentioned, mostly from Amazon.com and from some bookstores in Chiangmai and Bangkok but have to confess I have not read them all yet. Peculiar to me is the nabit of browsing and reading in full certain parts of one book and then another. Maybe this habit of buying of books and not finishing the reading is a sign of craving as described by the Buddha and that of reading many books at one time, that of greed. Hopefully mindfulness will be the antidote.

Best wishes, Bakuteh.

[Bakuteh]

I had the honour of meeting with Aj Chah and a few of his western monks a couple of times at his main monastery near Ubon in the late 70s and again in the early 80s. It's amazing how his legacy lives on in monasteries not only in northeastern Thailand but in forest-style monasteries the UK, America and Australia.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is Achan Chah's kamma, providing a very vivid illustration (lesson) of how ones kamma transends death. Also, the (teaching-influencing) kamma of Achan Chah is conditioned by actions upon his memory today, which is also another vivid illustration on how the kamma of the living effect (condition) the kamma of those who have passed away (and the other way...)

One of the main points being that the matrix of kamma, or kamma matrix, everyone is connected, the living, the death, and those yet to be born, as sentinent beings are connected in the "kamma matrix" and the "kamma matrix" is conditioned. In effect, there is no "reality" there is only the "kamma matrix" which, at this moment, is the conditioned "sum total" of all the world's kamma, which creates the "illusion" of life we call "the world".... all based on rules, traditions, rituals, fears, joys, desires, ad infinitum, which comprise the "kamma matix" we see as "life"..... it is a "constructed reality". The Buddhist meditator follows the Eigh Fold Path to development the mindfulness to penetrate the kamma matrix, to see what is kamma, what is dhamma.

The mind if the Buddha can be seen in all things. One can read 10000 books on Buddhist thought and not see what kamma, dhamma and the kamma matrix. The Buddha simply (very kind of him) gave us a set of "tools" to observe the "kamma matrix" starting with seeing our own individual kamma and then, for many, going outward from there (if that is their destiny).

As. to state the obvious. this is also part of my kamma, to help those here to understand the "gems" of the mind of the Buddha (and how a part of the kamma we know as "Thai culture" is conditioned by the same).

PS: My time on TV is temporary, BTW.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Sabaijai and Mr Farang,

The book (Ajahn Chah's Q&A) you refer to is The Forest Pool but the original Q&A was posted on the net at a site for Theravada writings, which is now defunct. The website also featured writings by all the prominent forest monks and even by a couple of nuns: Ayya Khemma and Upasika Kee Nanayon who was a Thai lady who was not an ordained a nun (until recently, ordination of nuns was not permitted in Thailand, I think) but was very well known in Thailand for her talks and good deeds.

Another translator/writer who should be praised and admired is Thanissaro Bhikkhu (Geoffrey DeGraff) who is giving sterling service to the Buddhist community and beyond for his immense contribution to Buddhist literature in English.

The following website will be helpful for biographical notes on Buddhist authors and translators: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/

Have to agree with you that it is far more important to oneself to practise the Dhamma even for a single moment than to read 1000 books. However it was said that the Buddha during his time had to use different devices to get his message to different people or groups of people. I suppose he would not have objected to the publication and dissemination of books which convey his message to people who respond best by reading as an initial step before attempting serious practice.

I also suppose in this world, it is a matter of "different strokes for different folks".

Best wishes, Bakuteh.

Edited September 16, 2005 by Bakuteh

[Abandon]

There's another excellent title containing Q&A with Ajahn Chah. I forget the name, something like Contemplating the Bodhi Tree. Most of the English-language publications about Aj Chah are available online for free.

I had the honour of meeting with Aj Chah and a few of his western monks a couple of times at his main monastery near Ubon in the late 70s and again in the early 80s. It's amazing how his legacy lives on in monasteries not only in northeastern Thailand but in forest-style monasteries the UK, America and Australia.

Here in Sri Lanka (where I am till the end of the month), at least some monks are well aware of his 'style', and I saw a couple of Aj Chah titles at the Buddhist Publication Society library in Kandy.

My impression in Thailand at least is that there are fewer Westerners in robes than there were in the 70s, and that the trend was declining by the 80s. However I have no figures to back that up. One reason maya be that most of the 'better' monasteries have tightened up their requirements for ordination for foreigners, often requring a period of time spent in white robes as an 8-precept layperson, followed by another period as a samanera or novice. Wat Bowonniwet, for one, has stopped ordaining Westerners altogether. The reasons I hear for this tightening up is that there were various abuses by Western monks, e.g., using the robes as a way to stay in Thailand indefinitely with non-immigrant visas, improper monastery etiquette, etc.

I am not sure that there are less nowadays, than there were before. Maybe our farang monks just don't have the urge to write so many books about it now.....

I do find western monks lurking in all kinds of temples and caves etc.. around Thailand, but also a lot of them have now gone to live and practise as monks around Europe and the US. If you included those, there are likely more now than ever before. In addition, in the 70's and early 80's there were not many long term ordainees, where now there are quite a lot.

Finally, I reckon it is not so 'sexy' , so ummm utterly alien to ordain now - before going off to Thai jungles to ordain in a bizaare religion with a 'master' was quite special romantically speaking, where now those temples are only an email away, and are situated on main roads near to airports.

I just realised that I was confused before - I was thinking of 'what the Buddha Never Taught' as the 'underground' book. Both of them are good books, but WTBNT might be a bit harder to find.

Edited September 16, 2005 by Pandit

[Mr. Farang]

Have to agree with you that it is far more important to oneself to practise the Dhamma even for a single moment than to read 1000 books. However it was said that the Buddha during his time had to use different devices to get his message to different people or groups of people. I suppose he would not have objected to the publication and dissemination of books which convey his message to people who respond best by reading as an initial step before attempting serious practice.

I also suppose in this world, it is a matter of "different strokes for different folks".

Best wishes, Bakuteh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, Khun Batuteh, you are also expressing my views. For many, it is difficult to even experience and know the dhamma for a single moment - so at least many are interested in reading about the thoughts of the Buddha. My personal experience is that reading dhamma is useful as well and is excellent supplemental material to practice.

On one occasion the Blessed One was living near Savatthi at Jetavana at the monastery of Anathapindika.

Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." -- "Venerable Sir," they said by way of reply. The Blessed One then spoke as follows:

"These ten essentials (dhammas) must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth (to live the holy life). What are these ten?

1. "'I am now changed into a different mode of life (from that of a layman).' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

2. "'My life depends on others.'

3. "'I must now behave in a different manner.' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

4. "'Does my mind upbraid me regarding the state of my virtue (sila)?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

5. "'Do my discerning fellow-monks having tested me, reproach me regarding the state of my virtue?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

6. "'There will be a parting (some day) from all those who are dear and loving to me. Death brings this separation to me.' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

7. "'Of kamma[1] I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; kamma is the matrix; kamma is my kinsman; kamma is my refuge. Whatever kamma I perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be heir. 'This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

8. "'How do I spend my nights and days?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

9. "'Do I take delight in solitude?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

10. "'Have I gained superhuman faculties? Have I gained that higher wisdom so that when I am questioned (on this point) by fellow-monks at the last moment (when death is approaching) I will have no occasion to be depressed and downcast?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

"These, monks, are the essentials that should be reflected again and again by one who has gone forth (to live the holy life)."

So spoke the Blessed One. Those monks rejoiced at the words of the Blessed One.

[camerata]

Here in Sri Lanka (where I am till the end of the month), at least some monks are well aware of his 'style', and I saw a couple of Aj Chah titles at the Buddhist Publication Society library in Kandy.

I'm sure you're not in Sri Lanka as a tourist but are there any interesting temples or places of pilgrimage there? The way things are going, I'll soon need a cheaper alternative to Japan for my annual vacation.

[sabaijai]

Here in Sri Lanka (where I am till the end of the month), at least some monks are well aware of his 'style', and I saw a couple of Aj Chah titles at the Buddhist Publication Society library in Kandy.

I'm sure you're not in Sri Lanka as a tourist but are there any interesting temples or places of pilgrimage there? The way things are going, I'll soon need a cheaper alternative to Japan for my annual vacation.

I can highly recommend Nilambe Meditation Centre, about 15m SE of Kandy in the Hill Country. I spent a week there earlier this month. Nilambe charges US$3 a day for room and board, teachings free, very quiet place in the mountains with no electricity. There are several others in the Kandy area as well, and when I return to Thailand at the end of the month I'll post info on a few. Elsewhere on the island you'll find another half dozen or so that offer instructions in English.

One of the highlights of the trip has been being invited to enter the inner shrine room of the Temple of the Tooth in Kandy. Thailand has contributed a lot of money to monasteries all over Sri Lanka, and for tsunami relief as well, and in return the monks managing the Temple of the Tooth make it relatively easier for Thais to receive permission to view the gilded stupa under which the tooth relic is supposedly kept, inside seven caskets. Every seven years they remove the tooth from the caskets for public viewing; last year when they did this, 15 million turned up to view it.

For Sinhalese Buddhists the chance to view the relic - even iwhile it's tucked away from view inside the stupa (the door to the inner chamber is opened three times daily for the regular folk to look through the doorway from a distance of around 10m) - is like the haj to Mecca for many Muslims.

Of course it's easy to criticise the concept of relic reverence, but nonetheless it's moving to see the hundreds of Buddhists praying in the hall outside every day.

Sorry this is all off topic. I'd have tried to create a blog or something but my access to the Internet has been so infrequent it didn't seem worthwhile attempting.

I can supply more info on Buddhist practice in SL, in a separate thread, when I'm back to Thailand.

[sabaijai]

PS: My time on TV is temporary, BTW.

As is all of ours ...

[chownah]

[

........

One of the highlights of the trip has been being invited to enter the inner shrine room of the Temple of the Tooth in Kandy. Thailand has contributed a lot of money to monasteries all over Sri Lanka, and for tsunami relief as well, and in return the monks managing the Temple of the Tooth make it relatively easier for Thais to receive permission to view the gilded stupa under which the tooth relic is supposedly kept, inside seven caskets. Every seven years they remove the tooth from the caskets for public viewing; last year when they did this, 15 million turned up to view it.

For Sinhalese Buddhists the chance to view the relic - even iwhile it's tucked away from view inside the stupa (the door to the inner chamber is opened three times daily for the regular folk to look through the doorway from a distance of around 10m) - is like the haj to Mecca for many Muslims.

Of course it's easy to criticise the concept of relic reverence, but nonetheless it's moving to see the hundreds of Buddhists praying in the hall outside every day.

.................

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been reading the Dhamma lessons from the Bhavana Society and read the following:

"

Giving a word of advice to Venerable Ananda, the Buddha said, "Ananda, do not

preoccupy yourself about venerating the Perfect One's remains. Please strive for your own goal, devote yourself to your own goal, and dwell diligent, ardent and self-controlled for your own good...." (Digha-nikkaya 16; qtd. in Essentials 319).

"

I know that this advice was given to an individual person. Is it usually accepted that this advice was meant for everyone...or is it usually considered to have been meant for Ananda's own personal needs only?

Edited September 19, 2005 by chownah

[Mr. Farang]

I've been reading the Dhamma lessons from the Bhavana Society and read the following:

"

Giving a word of advice to Venerable Ananda, the Buddha said, "Ananda, do not

preoccupy yourself about venerating the Perfect One's remains. Please strive for your own goal, devote yourself to your own goal, and dwell diligent, ardent and self-controlled for your own good...." (Digha-nikkaya 16; qtd. in Essentials 319).

"

I know that this advice was given to an individual person.  Is it usually accepted that this advice was meant for everyone...or is it usually considered to have been meant for Ananda's own personal needs only?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personally, I accept this as the mind of the Buddha, as advice and counsel to all (as the same theme is repeated time and time again in Theravada literature.)

"..do not preoccupy yourself about venerating the Perfect One's remains. Please strive for your own goal, devote yourself to your own goal, and dwell diligent, ardent and self-controlled for your own good...."

Edited September 19, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[sabaijai]

The book (Ajahn Chah's Q&A) you refer to is The Forest Pool

A Still Forest Pool, right?

[Bakuteh]

The book (Ajahn Chah's Q&A) you refer to is The Forest Pool

A Still Forest Pool, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right. Pardon my misquote.

Incidentally, I just found my copy of "Entering the Stream" (Ed: Bercholz & Sherab C Kohn) (ISBN: 0 87773 981 1) which also includes Ajahn Chah's sermon on "Our Real Home" which I enjoyed as something applicable to everyone and not only to patients approaching death.

Another book I found useful as an introduction and brief survey of Buddhism is "The Buddhist Handbook" (ISBN 0 7126 9861 2) by John Snelling, now deceased.

It's good to "talk" to you, hope you had a good day.