Us "customs And Border Protection" Service

[ProThaiExpat]

Trying to look at it from the other side of this issue, if you are a relatively poorly paid government employee, and I suspect without much education, invested with "power", the exercise of same is the only thing you can do during your "shift" to relieve the boredem.

Wouldn't you select the cleanest, best looking traveller with the politest demeanor to while away your time with? Wouldn't you want to see how the other half lives by searching the bags of the weathly, as opposed to the dirty and unwashed?

Perhaps, the port of entry might also be a determining factor. How about the time of day, the closeness to a shif change and other factors we are not even aware of. Certainly, country of origination of the flight is a major search criteria.

Notwithstanding all I have said, I think they are out of control and should be more closely monitored. The march to the "right", led by this "warrior" President is also a factor as "facisim" almost always shows its head early by "heavy handed" controls of the populace.

As a citizen, there should be a presumption of innocense. With a computer data base on every traveller, after one close inspection, criteria should be to allow free entry without further searches unless negative input is received. But who said they are acting sensibly?

A second thought, frequent travellers to the same destination may be an indicies of smugglers. "Mules" are selected for their non-discript appearance and their frequent travel between one foreigh city and one point of entry might be a "reg flag".

I am more inclined to attribute their "attitude" to a lack of mandate to be pleasant and have meaningful criteria for inspection.

[Tj555]

When I left the US for Thailand nearly a year ago, I got the heavy handed search. Every last item was removed from my (carry-on) bags and inspected.

At the time, I used a Sonicare electric toothbrush. I had two spare toothbrush heads in a clear ziploc bag. The agent in question picked up the bag, looked at the heads, and then pointed told me: "I won't take them out of the bag and examine them." (or something similar).

What possible response could I give? "Uh, thanks."

( for not running your filthy hands over the bristles of my toothbrushes )

For perspective purposes, these are toothbrush heads - they have hollow bottoms, and fit onto the tip of a machine. There's no possible place to hide anything in them, and you can clearly see into the hollow bottom through the bag.

The time before, coming into the US from Thailand, customs searched my bag. Possibly because I'd mentioned that I had candy (ie, food). As I'm struggling to repack my dirty underwear (et al) back into my single carry-on, the agent tells me "you should have a bigger bag."

Yes. I. Should. Get. A. Bigger. Bag. To. Ensure. That. When. I'm. Searched. In. Customs. I. Can. Repack. More. Quickly.

I still get upset when I think about either of these incidents, even if they were relatively minor. With the bag size, there's a certain amount of logic to it. But then again, the idea that I should have to purchase a bigger bag just so that I can undergo customs searches more easily makes me angry. Must be that "I didn't do anything wrong, so it f'ing pisses me off that I'm being searched in the first place" mentality.

Edited September 15, 2005 by dr_Pat_Pong

[ChrisP]

First, I you should know that I don't like "Authority Figures".. I get nervous and flustered.. for no reason.. but there it is.

For those of you interested.. this is how the Interrogation questioning went with my LAX Customs Agent.. She is young, female, and has something of an "authority attitude".. and during the search keeps looking at me more than the bag.. like she is trying to find something deeper. Her search starts thorough but becomes cursory later, although her attitude continues... she does nothing to make me feel at ease.

Agt: "Why are you so nervous?"

Me: "Beacuse I don't like having a stranger search through my personal effects every time I come back in the country"

Agt: "Well perhaps you'd better not travel in future"

Me: No reply [what do you say to that..?]

Agt: "What do you do for a living?"

Me: "I'm a University Professor"

Agt: "What were you doing there?"

Me: "Part work, part vacation"

Agt: "How long were you in Thailand?"

Me: "9 weeks"

Agt: "How can you spend 9 weeks there?"

Me: No reply. [what am I supposed to say to that..?]

Agt: "How often do you go there?"

Me: "About once every 5-6 weeks"

Agt: "How can you afford to go every 5-6 weeks?"

Me: no reply.. [what is the answer to THAT?]

Agt: "Do you have a relative, wife or girlfriend there?"

Me: "I have a boyfriend there"

Agt: "How old is he?"

Me: "He's 22"

Agt: "And how old are you?"

Me: "I'm 53" [at this she looks back up at me with a stare...]

Agt: " How long have you been together?"

Me: "About 18 months."

Agt: "Do you have any pictures of him?"

Me:

Agt: "Why are you showing me his passport page?" [she doesn't look at it]

Me: "Because I get asked about him every time"

Agt: "Do you have a regular picture of him?"

Me:

Agt: "Is he over 18 in all of these..?"

Me: "Yes he is"

Agt: "Where do you stay in Thailand?"

Me: "I have an apartment in Bangkok"

Agt: "How much do you pay for that?

Me: " $150 a month"

Agt: [finds an envelope labelled "US Visa Application"] "Are you applying for a Visa for him..?

Me: "Eventually, yes."

Agt: "Why do you want him to come to America?"

Me: "Because I would like him to come and visit me, and he's never seen the USA." [stupid question...]

Agt: [finds my digital camera] "Show me how to view the pictures in this.."

[she steps through every one of the 200+ pictures in the camera......... finds nothing to interest her]

Agt: "Why do you have so many pills with you?" [she find my vitamins and minerals collection...]

Me: "Because I think they're valuable.." [sigh]

[ she then flips through and opens ALL the business paperwork, files and folders I have]

Agt: "Ok, you can re-pack your bags..."

End of search.

She walks to her computer and types something into it... and she mumbles something to her colleague whilst glancing at me.

I am now thoroughly upset and angry about my "welcome" to my home country... I thought their job used to be to find stuff you're not supposed to bring back into the country.. but now it also seems to be an investigative inquiry into your life and personal situation.

Oh, and because the plane came from Taiwan.. not everyone on it had "Thailand" on their Customs Form...

Can you refuse to answer certain irrelevant questions..........?

ChrisP

[jrincon17]

First, I you should know that I don't like "Authority Figures".. I get nervous and flustered.. for no reason.. but there it is.

For those of you interested.. this is how the Interrogation questioning went with my LAX Customs Agent..  She is young, female, and has something of an "authority attitude".. and during the search keeps looking at me more than the bag.. like she is trying to find something deeper. Her search starts thorough but becomes cursory later, although her attitude continues... she does nothing to make me feel at ease.

Agt: "Why are you so nervous?"

Me: "Beacuse I don't like having a stranger search through my personal effects every time I come back in the country"

Agt: "Well perhaps you'd better not travel in future"

Me: No reply [what do you say to that..?]

Agt: "What do you do for a living?"

Me: "I'm a University Professor"

Agt: "What were you doing there?"

Me: "Part work, part vacation"

Agt: "How long were you in Thailand?"

Me: "9 weeks"

Agt: "How can you spend 9 weeks there?"

Me:  No reply. [what am I supposed to say to that..?]

Agt: "How often do you go there?"

Me: "About once every 5-6 weeks"

Agt: "How can you afford to go every 5-6 weeks?"

Me: no reply.. [what is the answer to THAT?]

Agt: "Do you have a relative, wife or girlfriend there?"

Me: "I have a boyfriend there"

Agt: "How old is he?"

Me: "He's 22"

Agt: "And how old are you?"

Me: "I'm 53"  [at this she looks back up at me with a stare...]

Agt: " How long have you been together?"

Me: "About 18 months."

Agt: "Do you have any pictures of him?"

Me: 

Agt: "Why are you showing me his passport page?" [she doesn't look at it]

Me: "Because I get asked about him every time"

Agt: "Do you have a regular picture of him?"

Me: 

Agt: "Is he over 18 in all of these..?"

Me: "Yes he is"

Agt: "Where do you stay in Thailand?"

Me: "I have an apartment in Bangkok"

Agt: "How much do you pay for that?

Me: " $150 a month"

Agt: [finds an envelope labelled "US Visa Application"] "Are you applying for a Visa for him..?

Me: "Eventually, yes."

Agt: "Why do you want him to come to America?"

Me: "Because I would like him to come and visit me, and he's never seen the USA." [stupid question...]

Agt: [finds my digital camera] "Show me how to view the pictures in this.."

[she steps through every one of the 200+ pictures in the camera......... finds nothing to interest her]

Agt: "Why do you have so many pills with you?" [she find my vitamins and minerals collection...]

Me:  "Because I think they're valuable.."  [sigh]

[ she then flips through and opens ALL the business paperwork, files and folders I have]

Agt: "Ok, you can re-pack your bags..." 

End of search.

She walks to her computer and types something into it... and she mumbles something to her colleague whilst glancing at me.

I am now thoroughly upset and angry about my "welcome" to my home country... I thought their job used to be to find stuff you're not supposed to bring back into the country.. but now it also seems to be an investigative inquiry into your life and personal situation.

Oh, and because the plane came from Taiwan.. not everyone on it had "Thailand" on their Customs Form...

Can you refuse to answer certain irrelevant questions..........?

ChrisP

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As you see like 10 popel who look the part of a terrorist pass you by . Same in the u.s. , but i have my gf's pics

[ovenman]

I am now thoroughly upset and angry about my "welcome" to my home country... I thought their job used to be to find stuff you're not supposed to bring back into the country.. but now it also seems to be an investigative inquiry into your life and personal situation.

Not a particularly welcoming experience but I don't know that you have any basis for a formal complaint (not that I am any expert in these matters). The agent's out is going to be to say "he was acting real nervous" and perhaps you were nervous given what you say about your feelings towards authority figures.

Can you refuse to answer certain irrelevant questions..........?

Probably not without arousing further suspicion. I am tempted to wise-off at times at some of the asinine things asked but I manage to hold my tongue. One of my faves is the ever-popular "Why do you live in Thailand?" I'm oh so tempted to respond with "Why do you live in this shithole that is Detroit?" (or wherever, my apologies to the folks in Detroit!)

edit-spelling

Edited September 14, 2005 by ovenman

[khall64au]

That explains everything... I stand in line looking like "god here I go again... I just bet they give me a hard time". It's written all over my face!!!  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are also on camera from the time you leave the Aircraft.A couple of mates of mine that used to work in customs always tried to focus on the ladies with the big knockers.... ...that and Swedish backpackers that may not have had somewhere to stay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

STOP picking on me Muttley.... you're just like THEM... seriously.... I think there is SOMETHING in my passport and probably u are right... the cameras or the underdogs are watching my wittle face for guilt symptoms

[samran]

Another red flag is licking your lips, which I often due after all the dry air.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Next time I get back to OZ I'll be licking my lips with relish the second I get off the plane, having loaded up on baked beans, Puk Bung Fai Dang and Plaa Raa the night before my flight. It'll make the interogation with the Australian Customs Service interesting for sure.

[khall64au]

not baked beans......

[TRIPxCORE]

I agree that the searches and queries upon return to the states is ridiculous most of the time. I get hassled most of the time at LAX, I don't know why. In SFO, I usually never have a problem. The only time I was really scrutinized was when I visited Laos for a stretch while in Thailand and had that stamp in my passport as well as writing it down as one of the countries I visited. This seemed to bother them and I guess I can understand why but alas, they never find anything on me so no worries.

Often times, I would just like to be able to curse these people out as well and tell them to &lt;deleted&gt; off but then I don't know what would happen. It's not illegal to curse at people so I don't see what they could do to me.

[usatrader]

One, like someone else said, I have been going back and forth with my family and by myself for over 20 years to Thailand and many other countries and have done so numerous times since 9/11 and have never been sent to secondary.

Except once on returning from Mexico, while in a car, I hesitated, just a bit, in answering the question of “what city and state where you born in” and that precipitated our vehicle ourselves and our stuff being inspected.

Personally, having worked at Homeland Security in a different capacity, I think the posters either fits a profile, or has been just been unlucky in the randomness probability circumstances. Or as I suspect, the inspectors are picking up his anger and frustration that flash out as him being over concerned about something as they are trained to look for.

Try being cool, changing you demeanor, accepting life in this new age we live in or take, meaning no insult or disrespect something like valium or Prozac, if that will calm you down and show a more relaxed attitude toward the whole process.

I can say randomness is catamount, places visited are important, security lists and current active alerts specific to certain profiles and or countries implicit in either drug, forgery and terrorism and most importantly your specific behavioral, your demeanor, be it in anger or fear, are triggers they are taught and used as tools and to recognize and initiate a deeper look see.

The opposite of this issue of being upset about this should be as well considered fairly as well.

If it were you, as the inspector, and someone acted nervous or angry and behaved oddly TO YOU, and you were trained, as well as alerted to specific personality traits and or country of visitation and or alert issues, would you want to be the one, that say, let Alta and his band of brothers or some drug carrier into the country?

Life seems always a perspective enjoined as long as it is not me that is effected I’m okay with it.

You can fill out a complaint form.

That will straighten them out.

And, most importantly, they will put you on that list of people not to mess with!

Paranoid now?!

P.S. If, I understood you correctly, I would not bet the farm if I were you that a complaint will put you on ANY mythological NOT TO MESS WITH list.

First, Especially if someone is following established protocols and procedures, the numbers of complainers are astronomical are uneventful in deeper examination.

Second, many of we Americans and some of our Euro brothers, bound in instant gratification addiction, and 30 second sound bit attention spans, are always assuming we are special and ,as such, are entitled to special treatment where to us complaining, is like breathing.

Or, in analogy, like large SUV and Gasoline, we are unconscious intertwined interlopers of vexation that complain unknowing of our own contributions to that which we complain.

Likewise, nor of the consequences of responsibility that just one mistake, knowing there are thousands all the time, may be that one, you committed, that will cost people’s their lives.

T HA T

IS

A LL!

[daxbr]

Thanks ChrisP for posting your exchange with the customs guy.

It happened to me in the past and I asked my US lawyer what to do about it. His advice was short: "Never, ever talk to them".

You have absolutely no obligation to give them any information beyond the filled out customs card and your passport. All your answers are voluntary and can be used against you. They can legally lie to you to elicit information but you cannot. It is a felony to lie to a federal officer.

It was always my opinion that I have nothing to gain by alienating them either so I say a few words and try to be nice but tell them nothing.

Last time, the conversation went like this:

him: Where have you been?

me: <smile>

him: Can you hear me?

me: Yes

him: I can certainly look in your passport and find out so you can just tell me where you went.

me: <smile> My memory is not good. Please feel free.

him: (without looking into my passport) How long have you been away?

me: <smile> Not too long.

him: (showing that he is loosing patience with me) What are you carrying with you?

me: Please feel free to look. It is all here.

At that time, I just step back and let them open and close my luggage.

This only applies to US citizens as others can be denied entry for any reason.

[the scouser]

A couple of mates of mine that used to work in customs always tried to focus on the ladies with the big knockers....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The UK lot used to do that too...when they weren't in the pub.

Scouse.

[ChrisP]

Thanks for all the replies.. especially PTExpat, usatrader and daxbr.. good advice.

After mulling it all over, the major thing I object to is the questioning about my personal life. As long as I don't have anything illiegal, what I do in Thailand, how often I visit or who I see there has nothing to do with Customs.

ChrisP

[eastbaybob]

  As long as I don't have anything illiegal, what I do in Thailand, how often I visit or who I see there has nothing to do with Customs. 

ChrisP

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ChrisP, Customs also investigates peodophiles that go overseas to engage in sex with minors, so no longer do they just look for suggled goods, so that is why they are interested in what you're doing over there not just with what is in your luggage. Here is a link to a press release on the Protection Act:

http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-20031218-09.html

[ChrisP]

^ Thanks for the link. Very informative.... at least it explains some of the quetions.

ChrisP

[ovenman]

It happened to me in the past and I asked my US lawyer what to do about it.  His advice was short: "Never, ever talk to them".

You have absolutely no obligation to give them any information beyond the filled out customs card and your passport.  All your answers are voluntary and can be used against you.  They can legally lie to you to elicit information but you cannot.  It is a felony to lie to a federal officer.

It was always my opinion that I have nothing to gain by alienating them either so I say a few words and try to be nice but tell them nothing.

I hear what you are saying and technically this is probably correct, but it seems like in following this course of action, you are just setting yourself up to be flagged as a troublemaker for any future entries into the United States.

[ChrisP]

Read this article related to hassles on entry to the US..

Link:

Fortress America

and....

Even some casual visitors say they are coming to this country less often and leaving sooner, citing a hassle factor at U.S. borders and airports.

Norman Fong said his wife's sister, who lives in Canada, is treated with suspicion "whenever she comes to visit us because they believe she might overstay her visa. She is originally from Hong Kong, and her English is not perfect. She said here during her last brief visit, 'I don't want to come here too often because they always harass me at the airport.' She was so upset, she only stayed three days and returned to Canada. She was going to stay longer.''

Washington officials counter that entering the United States is becoming easier and quicker for foreign tourists, business executives and academics and that the notion of a Fortress America is an aftereffect of the confusion and anxiety following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

After Sept. 11, Washington mandated the collection of more information about travelers to confirm their identities and necessarily subjected travelers to closer scrutiny, said Janice Jacobs, assistant secretary of state for visa service. Consequently, some people were delayed or barred from the United States, sometimes without understanding why.

ChrisP

[ProThaiExpat]

TJ555"When I left the US for Thailand nearly a year ago, I got the heavy handed search. Every last item was removed from my (carry-on) bags and inspected"

Can anyone come up with a sensible reason to inspect baggage upon DEPARTURE?

[sbk]

Sounds like security rather than customs. Customs only searches bags on arrival, security searches you when you go through the xray line. I've had that nearly every time, no personal questions, just a quick search.

[ProThaiExpat]

ChrisP: Your Q&A post says it all. I am really surprised that you are not more sympathetic toward the "Nancy Drew" that, after and exhaustive investigation and outstanding interrogation, didn't find a pedophile. Imagine how disapointed you made her feel. Her questions suggest limited life experience, travel and knowledge of world travellers, such as yourself.

[ovenman]

Read this article related to hassles on entry to the US..

Link:

Interesting article. Did you notice how in 2008 the US is going to start requiring its citizens to have passports when returning from Canada and Mexico? That oughta cut right down on the number of people who day-trip border-hop between say, San Diego and Tijuana or the two Niagara Falls (New York and Ontario).

[The Coder]

Using 911 seems a weak excuse for increased interrogation of its own citizens because the vast majority of the hijackers were in America on completely legal visas and of course they were not Americans to begin with. It makes about as much sense as the plastic butter knives.

[ChrisP]

And there's more on Fortress America:

The Guardian Online - July 22, 2004

The Guardian Article.. July 22 2004

ChrisP

[wimpy]

TJ555"When I left the US for Thailand nearly a year ago, I got the heavy handed search. Every last item was removed from my (carry-on) bags and inspected"

Can anyone come up with a sensible reason to inspect baggage upon DEPARTURE?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have seen people questioned and searched just prior to boarding the plane. Customs was looking for people carrying large sums of undeclared cash.

[lomatopo]

Experiences as a U.S. citizen…

Post 9/11, departing from the U.S.A. I have not been SSSSed and/or chosen for secondary screening by TSA. I make sure not to trip the metal detector. (I think one-way tickets can trigger an SSSS?)

Arriving in the U.S.A. (typically BOS via FRA or MUC; SFO via NRT, IAD via AMS, ORD via NRT) I have only been subjected to a luggage search at IAD coming from AMS. At IAD it was after immigration and luggage retrieval, but prior to Customs and baggage re-check (for a connecting flight). As I recall, there were a few questions, and a quick search of my bag, nothing too invasive.

Arriving at SFO, ORD or BOS after traveling from Thailand, the Immigration officers do sometimes ask a few questions (“What was the purpose of your visit?” Whatever I checked on the Customs form, sometimes business, sometimes holiday. “How long have been away?” However long it was, in days or weeks or months. “What do you do for work?” Consultant. “Do you have friends or family in Thailand” No family, but I’ve made a few friends. “Why were you there so long?” My business required it, or, There are so many sights to see.

I try to keep my answers as short as possible, any non-open ended question requires a yes or no without elaboration.

In ChrisP’s case, the honest answer to the agent’s question, "Do you have a relative, wife or girlfriend there?", is, “No, Ma’am.”

Another few examples…

Why are you so nervous? I don't feel nervous.

What do you do for a living? Teach.

What were you doing there? Work or holiday, choose one.

How can you spend nine weeks in Thailand? It went by too quickly.

How can you afford to go so often? It is not that expensive.

Do you have a wife, relative or girlfriend there? No, unless you do have a wife or relative there, temporarily forget about the girlfriend.

Where do you stay in Thailand? Bangkok (or the nearest big, recognizable city)

Why do you have so many pills? For my health.

I know it’s easy to comment in hind-sight, and I am honestly trying to be helpful, but try to stay focused, look the agent in the eye, be sincere, respectful, honest and brief, no reason to get all chatty as that can sometimes be confused for nervousness. The process (secondary search of a bag, initial immigration contact) will last as long as the conversation so your goal is to keep the conversation as brief and uninteresting as possible.

Edited September 15, 2005 by lomatopo

[craigt3365]

I have been back and forth many times. Usually looking rather ragged from the long flight and too much partying in Thailand! I never got checked. Even when coming back from Cuba...man, I was really nervous those times. Had a depature stamp from either Mexico or Jamaica and then a rentry into that same country...with no other entry/exit stamps. Looked pretty bad. But, got through.

Glad they did not search me last time as I was carrying about 300 Pantip DVDs! Whew!

I think they should do it like in Mexico. You hit a button and it either turns red or green. Totally random. Green, head straight through. Red, you get checked.

[aughie]

I have never seen the light turn red twice in a row. I love the Mexican method. They make you spin the wheel of fate so to speak and by having to physically push a button it is you who condemms yourself if the light turns red and they find something in the subsequent search of your luggage. I think the red light/ green light method has a sense of humor to it.

I never converce with on duty police. It can lead to a slippery slope. I don't know if I can say police are trained to be suspicious but an innocent statement can get you anal-ized.

People who have a problem with authority or who are dissatisfied with the established system are the people they are trained to look for.

Edited September 15, 2005 by aughie

[samran]

Wifey and I were SSSS'ed on the last trip to the US, probably cause we had stamps from the UAE and Oman in our passports.

Thought that it might be a pain in arse, but we used it as an excuse to skip to the front of some very long lines, so it was actually a blessing.

Thing to remember with the US for forigners is, when you sign your entry card, you are also agreeing to waive most, if not all your rights to appeal normally granted under US law. This applies from the second you sign that form till the second you are officially allowed in.

[Old Croc]

TJ555"When I left the US for Thailand nearly a year ago, I got the heavy handed search. Every last item was removed from my (carry-on) bags and inspected"

Can anyone come up with a sensible reason to inspect baggage upon DEPARTURE?

Wildlife smuggling from Oz is a huge racket. May be the same from the US. Worldwide it is reputed to be second only to drugs.

[Old Croc]

Thing to remember with the US for forigners is, when you sign your entry card, you are also agreeing to waive most, if not all your rights to appeal normally granted under US law. This applies from the second you sign that form till the second you are officially allowed in.

Same in Oz. You have not officially entered the country until your passport is stamped and you have left the building. This place is known as the migration zone. A place where appeal rights do not exist.